Vocational Education and Training
Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts(6 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, on enabling this debate on such a vital issue. I do that as a fellow cyclist; I am impressed by his two-wheel activities.
As part of our understandable desire to ensure what has been described as the knowledge economy, the aim is that 50% of the 18 to 30 year-old population should go to university. There is nothing wrong with that as an ambition. If one takes into account the nature of the fourth industrial revolution, it is probably a laudable ambition—laudable in terms of social mobility as well. Unfortunately, thanks to the law of unintended consequences, this policy has created the view that vocational education is a second-class route.
Despite the Baker amendment referred to by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, the majority of secondary schools still encourage their 16 year-olds to focus on the academic route. Alternative career paths are seen as an afterthought. That is doubly unfortunate because the academic route is unsuitable for many pupils; it may be suitable later on but, at that point in their lives, it is unsuitable. In addition, we desperately need the skills which require vocational education. Look at the demographics of the construction, engineering and tech industries—the statistics were given by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, and so I have no need to repeat them. Young people, teachers and parents need to recognise that these are worthwhile career paths. That is not what we are seeing at the moment. If you look at the demographics and at the number of vacancies, you will see that these skills are desperately needed by our economy if we want to improve productivity and, dare I say it, face the challenge of apprenticeships.
It is not that the Government are not doing anything. I never like to enter a debate with a totally negative response, because that is neither fair nor appropriate. I like to take a constructive approach. Apprenticeships are clearly an important alternative career path. Under the apprenticeship levy, the Government’s objective was for 3 million apprenticeships during the lifetime of this Parliament—however long that may be. I remember so many of us saying that it was not the quantity they needed to focus on but the quality of apprenticeships; that is what really matters. If we want to improve the perception of vocational education as a quality alternative career path and lift it up to the level of esteem seen in countries such as Germany, where it is considered to be just as good and necessary as the academic career path, the quality of apprenticeships is important.
I have always been a supporter of university technical colleges—the Baker Dearing concept—because of their ability to encourage young people to see the vocational skills we are examining this evening as a viable alternative that will not only create a possible career for them but could lead to a degree qualification as well. This is not an either/or approach.
A major part of the flagship programme that came about as a result of a number of reviews, including the Sainsbury and Wolf reviews, is the concept of T-levels. I am sure that there will probably be more strident criticisms of T-levels than I will utter this evening. I want only to express the worrying concern I have heard from a number of employers. They tell me that, although 45 days of work experience is a laudable objective for a vocational qualification, they do not know what the Government want them to do. Should employers focus on apprenticeships or T-levels? Some companies are telling me that they will not be able to do both. That is a serious challenge for the Government. The noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, said that we should be wary of throwing out the educational qualification baby with the bathwater. Some high-quality educational qualifications exist already. I know it is said that we have too many, but the real problem in establishing new qualifications is just that: establishing them when good-quality ones already exist. I do not want to damn T-levels, but I would welcome the Minister saying how he will deal with the problem that employers have raised with me.
I have only one little objection to what the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, said. He referred to soft skills. I cannot help it: it is a reflex with me that when somebody talks about soft skills, I have to say that they are not “soft” skills but “essential” skills. Talk to employers and they will tell you that it is about not just the qualifications young people bring to them but about the basics of teamwork and turning up on time, and enthusiasm and creativity.
I welcome this vital debate. We still have not reached in this country a position where vocational education is seen as a high-quality, worthwhile route. As I have said on many other occasions, I look forward to the time when I can go into a secondary school and see an honours board which honours not just the young people who have achieved a degree but those who have graduated from a high-quality apprenticeship.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Agnew of Oulton) (Con)
My Lords, I am pleased to answer the Question for Short Debate and to thank my noble friend Lord Bridgeman for creating this opportunity.
This Government are committed to ensuring excellent educational outcomes for all children whatever their backgrounds. All young people should get the opportunity to reach their potential, whether that be through an academic or a more vocationally focused route. I agree with my noble friend Lord Bridgeman, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, that technical and vocational education has for too long not been given the focus it deserves. As a result, the content of vocational qualifications has too often been misaligned with what employers actually want. This is why the Government are putting employers at the heart of our work to build a new, world-class education system.
We are developing T-levels. They are rigorous qualifications for students aged 16 to 18 who want to study subjects that will prepare them for skilled jobs. Crucially, the content of T-levels is being set by employers; some 200 have worked with us in their creation, so students taking T-levels can be sure that they are gaining skills that businesses are looking for. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, are concerned that we are now rolling these out. T-levels will include a broad core of underpinning knowledge. They will include English, maths and digital skills as well as other transferable skills. They will attract UCAS points equivalent to three A-levels and students will be able to progress into higher education.
In answer to a question from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, we are conducting a wider review of post-16 qualifications with the aim of streamlining the vast number on offer. Our apprenticeship reforms have been focused on quality, ensuring that the new employer-led apprenticeships reflect what today’s businesses really want and need. All this supports the Government’s aim of overtaking Germany in the opportunities that we offer to those studying technical routes by 2029.
On soft skills, my noble friend Lord Bridgeman and the noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about support. I rather agree that the term “soft skills” underplays the importance of those skills that you need to engage in a career. We are providing £1,000 for both employers and providers taking on 16 to 18 year-old apprentices and eligible 19 to 24 year-old apprentices, which allows them to provide support on what are currently called soft skills. If anyone wants to suggest a better term, I would be very open to that.
I regret that I will have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Storey, my noble friend Lord Baker and several other Peers today on the EBacc. The Sutton Trust did some research on 300 schools a couple of years ago, looking at the impact of the EBacc on children. It showed that the average grades in English and maths rose by 0.2 and 0.4 of a grade respectively, with the five A to C pass rate improving by 1.2%. Pupils who attended the schools were also 1.7% more likely to be taking an A-level or other level 3 qualifications. Pupil-premium students benefited most from the changes in these schools, essentially because low and middle prior-attainment students increased the take-up of EBacc subjects most. As a result, the pupil premium gap closed more in schools with similar pupil intake demographics, including a six percentage point narrowing of the EBacc gap.
We want students to have the option of studying technical and vocational subjects before the age of 16. That is why we deliberately designed the EBacc to allow for the study of additional subjects. Our Progress 8 school performance measure takes account of the results that pupils achieve in up to three technical and vocational qualifications alongside their GCSEs. However, it is critical that the vocational courses that students take at key stage 4 are of high quality and as vigorous as GCSEs, and that they have real value in terms of progression on to further study and employment.
Several Peers asked about careers advice. We are working closely with the Careers & Enterprise Company and are making good progress in delivering the careers strategy. We have extended the enterprise adviser network of senior business volunteers across the country. Over 2,200 schools and colleges are now matched to an enterprise adviser. We have established 40 new career hubs, meaning that around one-quarter of secondary schools and colleges in England will now benefit. We have made over 1,300 career leader training bursaries available for schools and colleges. We have introduced a targeted set of funds for disadvantaged areas focusing on personal guidance, SEND and vulnerable young people. Of course there is more to do, and it is our aspiration for all the services to be available to all secondary schools. The careers budget in 2021 will be confirmed after the conclusion of the department’s business planning process.
In 2011, the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, conducted a review of vocational education for 14 to 19 year-olds. It found that the system of vocational education at the time was failing many young people. A large proportion of students were on courses that had little or no market value, and it was seen as a second-class route aimed at the less able. The Government announced a number of reforms in response to the Wolf review. These changes included ensuring that only those vocational qualifications that were the most valuable for young people in terms of their content, assessment and progression would be recognised in performance tables. The Wolf review found that a broad-based academic curriculum at key stage 4 was the best way of keeping pupils’ options open. It accepted that for some pupils a proportion of curriculum time might be used for other options.
The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked about exclusions—there is a connection there, as I recognise. However, it is important to stress that the number of permanent exclusions is still extremely low. At 0.01%, it is lower than it was 10 years ago. We have consulted on the issue of off-rolling, which I suppose is an ugly first cousin of exclusion. We are clamping down on it. The new Ofsted inspection framework requires much greater scrutiny of any off-rolling-type behaviour in schools.
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked what support we are offering for employers in other work placements. We have expanded the role of the National Apprenticeship Service to provide a matchmaking service. In May, we announced a £7 million employer support fund pilot to trial the provision of financial support to employers across different industries.
Virtually every noble Lord, but particularly the noble Lords, Lord Young and Lord Storey, and my noble friends Lord Baker and Lord Kirkham, said that they feel that the vocational route does not get the status it deserves. I completely agree. I think we have overcooked the rather lazy mantra of encouraging children to go to university whatever the cost to them and whatever the quality of the course they are studying. We are starting to change that. As someone who did not go to university, I am passionate about this. I am one of seven children and only one of my siblings went to university. We have all managed perfectly well without it. This is the beginning of the push-back.
We know that for some students technical and vocational education at this stage of their education can help to motivate and engage them, as well as opening their eyes to potential options for future study and careers. To address the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, evidence shows that for pupils in state-funded mainstream schools in 2017, taking a technical award was associated with lower absence and exclusion rates.
Despite the reforms following the Wolf review, concerns remain regarding the quality of some of these qualifications. In recent months, the department has been working with Ofqual to consider what more needs to be done to ensure that we can have confidence that these awards are of high quality. Ofqual launched a consultation only last week on finding a way to achieve this. I am confident that this will lead to further improvements in the quality of technical education at key stage 4 in the future.
It would be wrong to omit reference to universal technical colleges and to not pay credit and tribute to my noble friend Lord Baker. I have spent more time with him than any other Peer in this House in the last two years. Strong UTCs are succeeding in equipping our young people with the skills businesses need, getting them into employment and creating a future pipeline of skilled workers. Several noble Lords referred to the Baker clause, including my noble friend Lord Bridgeman in particular. This is a new clause that came in only during the summer of last year, so we cannot expect universal take-up straightaway. However, I completely accept that not enough schools have taken it seriously enough, and we will be taking a tougher approach with them. We surveyed a number of schools recently and 76% stated that the duty is being partially complied with. A further review this summer found that compliance, although patchy, is improving. In January of this year, a report from the IPPR contained similar findings: 70% of providers found it difficult to access schools in their area, but one in three said the situation had improved. I am not complacent, and we will continue to put pressure on schools to be more open to this.
My noble friends Lord Baker and Lord Bridgeman asked about the size of the skills gap. In September, we announced that a new skills and productivity board will be established to provide the Government with expert advice on how to ensure that the courses and qualifications on offer to students are high quality, are aligned to the skills that employers need for the future and will help increase productivity. We are also establishing skills advisory panels across the country, to bring together local employers and skills providers to understand and address local skills challenges. In tackling skills gaps, the Government’s role is to support the skills market in making it more responsive to demand. We are doing this by delivering a long-term programme to reform the post-16 skills system.
My noble friend Lord Bridgeman also asked what the Government are doing to introduce children to trades in the first two years of secondary school specifically. Schools must support young people to understand the education, training and careers options open to them. The work must start long before students reach that point of decision. Careers advice should inform and inspire them from an early age. That is why the Government expect all schools to provide careers guidance from year 7—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord. I asked a specific question about the challenge facing employers in responding to T-levels and the 45 days of work experience that they have to provide. They are also expected to support apprenticeships. That is the challenge they are faced with. Some are saying that they cannot do both. If the Minister cannot provide the answer now, I would welcome some further response.
Schools: Funding
Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lady Morris for sharing her expertise, as usual, and for giving us an opportunity to debate this key issue. Once again I congratulate the Library on its briefing, which always comes to your rescue when you are trying to prepare for a complex debate.
I agree with one aspect of government policy: the national funding formula is a necessary change because there was a postcode lottery in the distribution of funding. However, although it is right to make that change, surely the challenge for the Government is how it is managed. They talk about a “soft formula” to support a “smooth transition”, but that reminds me a bit of the “managed migration” approach to universal credit. Can the Minister advise the House when the Government plan to publish a review of the transition process to the NFF? It will be important to see how local authorities and schools are coping.
A number of noble Lords mentioned what they have fairly described as neutral organisations, such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Audit Office. These organisations have pointed out the decline in funding. As has already been said, under the previous Labour Government, we witnessed a 50% funding increase from 1997 to 2010. Now, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and others point to a real reduction of 8%. Why is that happening? The institute states that total spending per pupil fell in real terms by 8% between 2009-10 and 2017-18, and will be only 14% higher in real terms in 2017-18 than in 2003-04. Added to this is the additional effect of a 55% real-terms cut in local authority service spending. I will not quote the figures, because others have already done so. We are also still witnessing a significant increase in the number of pupils, which is another challenge for schools.
I declare an interest as a recent former chair of a board of governors of a primary school. We experienced a need to cut back on staffing. We now have to manage a three-year budget-planning process. That is no bad thing, but it has shown us that there will be a significant reduction in available funding to plan for the increased costs of pay increases, pensions, the minimum living wage, national insurance contributions, the apprenticeship levy and increased pupil numbers. These cannot be discounted; you have to plan for them. As others have said, we used to have the cushion of a surplus but it has now been eroded.
Teachers face huge challenges, including more than 50% of pupils on free school meals, pupils with English as a second language—in my own school, something like 30 languages are spoken—and fewer books at home. These are real challenges for schools to face.
As has already been said, the recruitment of good-quality teachers and head teachers is a more and more demanding process. It is not that people do not want to participate in the profession but that they feel the challenge is too great for it to be a worthwhile and rewarding career.
Does the Minister agree that we should regard education as an infrastructure investment? Why do I ask that? I do so because the Government have stressed in their industrial strategy the urgent need to improve productivity. The demands of the fourth industrial revolution and the digital revolution mean that we need a more-skilled workforce.
My noble friend Lord Knight referred to the demands of industry. We live in an age where the challenge of globalisation—and probably Brexit—means that we need more skilled people. He made an interesting comment about companies taking on fewer graduates than previously; they are looking for people they can train themselves and to move into the apprenticeship field. As someone who has declared an interest in apprenticeships on many occasions, and given the vast amounts of money that is now pouring into student loans, I welcome that.
Employers are looking for people to come into their companies with what they regard as the essential skills: literacy, numeracy, digital skills and the ability to work as part of a team. More and more, we are hearing employers say that it is exceedingly difficult to recruit in areas of high demand. We want more apprenticeships and yet we have cut back significantly on further education.
I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, on her candid analysis. I, too, hope that the Minister listened to it, because she made a number of important points. Her reference to the increased demand for SEND pupil places, the need to meet that demand and local authorities’ inability to rise to the challenge was one of the most important points made today. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, also made the point.
My noble friend Lady Massey mentioned “a rounded and grounded education”—a phrase I like and something that I think all parents seek for their children. However, parents are increasingly worrying whether that sort of education can be achieved. I certainly echo my noble friend Lady Massey’s point about early intervention. We know that if we do not make early interventions, the situation for children as they move through primary education will become increasingly difficult. It is difficult for the child and difficult for the teachers. For every child who leaves primary school not fully numerate and literate, the challenges and costs of remedying the situation at secondary level increase.
Like the other speakers in this debate, I hope the Government are listening. I welcome some of the moves they have made and the increases in funding, but it really is not enough. If they want to meet the targets they have set themselves to improve productivity and meet the skills demand of the new digital revolution, they need to recognise that education funding is a key part of the challenge.
Lord Agnew of Oulton
I had dinner with my noble Friend, Lord Harris, two nights ago and he is always frank in his views. He is a passionate advocate for his schools and what he has achieved is fantastic. I would like that to go on the record.
I would also like to give an example of a relatively small trust, the Thinking Schools Academy Trust in Kent, which has taken the novel approach of paying £2,000 more to its newly qualified teachers when it recruits them. You may say, “There’s no money around, so how has it done that?”. It has done so because its retention rate on teachers is double the national average. It has only a 10% turnover of staff every year, as against a national turnover of 20%. Thinking in ways like that can make such a difference.
I have been told to stop. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morris—
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I am sorry to delay the end, but I asked when the Government were going to review the transition to the new funding formula.
Lord Agnew of Oulton
My apologies. We are on a soft programme at the moment that is being reviewed, and then it will be reviewed more formally with the spending review. So I cannot answer that question at the moment. As the noble Lord will know, we are experimenting with giving delegation to local authorities for the high-needs funding block. Some local authorities are using that and some are passing all the funding straight back to schools. That soft launch will last until the funding review, which will be next year.
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate. Even more, I pay tribute to the hard work of teachers and schools who give their best to raise standards in our education system. I have worked very closely with these wonderful people and I support the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, in what she said about the morale of teachers in the workforce and the fact that they are making a vital contribution.
We are changing the way that funding works. It is not easy, but we are seeing it beginning to bear fruit. This will underpin a further improvement in standards to help create a world-class education system that finally allows every child to achieve their potential, no matter what their background.
English Baccalaureate: Creative and Technical Subjects
Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness on securing this debate. We share an interest in this area, and I like to think of her as a friend as well. I declare an interest as chair of the governing body of my local primary school. I have been on the governing body for a while, but as there was a vacancy, I thought I would try my hand at chairing it. It has been an interesting challenge. I was reflecting on the point made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh about the importance of the arts when watching a recent school play in which about 100 young children took part. They were singing and dancing in a production written and devised by a previous deputy head, who still comes back to the school to produce it. It brings joy to the heart to see those children, and you just hope that when they transfer they will not lose that joy in artistic creation. Surely that should be part of our aims and objectives.
What are the Government’s objectives? They are clearly set out in their consultation response and reflect the manifesto ambitions. They include that 75% of year 10 pupils in state-funded mainstream schools start to study for GCSEs in the EBacc combination of subjects by September 2022 and that 90% of them do so in 2025. I looked at the opening paragraph of the statement by the Minister for Education and I like it. It says that we need to become a great meritocracy and,
“need an education system which ensures that everyone has a fair chance to go as far as their talent and hard work will allow. We need to remove the barriers that stop people from being the best they can be, and ensure that all children are given the same chances through education to succeed”.
Who could quarrel with that in its broad thrust? However, we have to ask whether the EBacc approach creates that kind of meritocracy. If we examine it, I do not think it does. That is the problem. It is all focused on narrow, academic achievement leading to a degree qualification. It is what I call a shoehorn approach, predicated on the view that the vast majority of pupils—90%—will benefit from the EBacc as one size fits nearly all. I do not often differ from the noble Lord, Lord Baker, but when he used the phrase “bright children”, I worried a bit because it made me think that perhaps the rest of them are not so bright. I know he did not mean it in that context, but my quarrel with it is that it assumes that all children develop in a similar way, and we know that they do not. It is not a question of whether they are academic, but sometimes they will develop more slowly and sometimes they will have a different range of skills and talents. If we are serious about developing an education system that will be a genuine meritocracy and will release all those talents and skills, we must make sure that this is the right approach. I think it is too narrow, and I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we should make the pie higher. It is just too narrow. I hope that the Minister will reflect on this debate.
As my noble friend Lord Knight said, it is not what all employers want. It is not just about qualifications. There are other essential skills—I always bridle when I hear people talk about soft skills as they are not soft skills; they are essential skills—such as the ability to communicate, to work as part of a team, to create, to problem-solve, to learn in a workplace environment and to participate in lifelong learning. Are we to assume that if you are not part of the 90% taking EBacc you have failed? I do not think that is what the Government believe or intend but, I was somewhat surprised to see no mention of apprenticeships or the Government’s much-heralded T-levels in the Government’s consultation response. I assume that the target of 3 million apprenticeships during this Parliament is still an objective. If we look at the demographics of a number of key industries—they have already been cited here today, so I am not going to go through them again—we know we are going to need huge numbers of high-grade technicians and a lot more people in the creative and arts environment because we know how important it is to the economy. We surely want them to go down the apprenticeship route, starting at 16, 18 or whenever. That is essential, with the added bonus that apprentices can earn while they learn and enhance their job prospects.
Nobody has mentioned the B word during this debate, and I hesitate to do so, but whatever happens, whether we get a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit, one thing is for sure: we need more of our own home-grown skills. I have never understood where the academy for Polish plumbers is, but it must be bloody—pardon me, very—successful in the numbers that it turns out, and now there is a Bulgarian academy as well. I say that not really in jest because there is a genuine need to ensure that more young people take on these skills. I thank the Edge Foundation for the document it produced. I am going to cut short some of the points in it because I have not got time, but it makes a point about the decline in design and technology, and the Government need to take that very seriously. The document notes that Alan Milburn’s Social Mobility Commission recognised that,
“there is a risk that an inflexible EBacc will disengage some children. There is some evidence from Germany that a more academic curriculum resulted in an increase in disengagement with school and an attendance drop off”.
The good news is that on page 16 of the Government’s response, they recognise that there are alternative educational routes which do not need to apply the EBacc formula and assessment. I hope they will answer the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, about what they are going to do with UTCs, studio schools and so on. I hope that they will recognise that there are alternative educational routes leading to very good careers.
How can we measure success? We can measure it when young people have real choice in education and career paths—all young people, including those who perhaps have been statemented, those who suffer either physical or mental disabilities—and when vocational education is seen as a valid choice that may eventually lead to a degree. Perhaps, in the final analysis, we would be able to see the numbers of those who are not in education, work or training come down to a minimum. That is when we will be able to say that we have succeeded.
Schools Update: National Funding Formula
Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts(8 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Nash
The noble Lord is absolutely right about the oncosts, which is what I was referring to, and them actually being cost pressures rather than cuts. But as I say, we have very sophisticated work under way in the department looking at school finances. We have something called a RAT—a risk assessment tool, which is slightly easier to say than a fair funding formula. We are working with local authorities and with academy trusts to ensure that their financial planning is good. I do not really recognise the expression “archenemy” as applied to local authorities. We are working very closely with local authorities on a number of fronts, including the free schools programme and our basic needs school place planning. We have increased the number of school places by three-quarters of a million in the last six years. We now have the strategic improvement boards, on which local authority representatives and regional schools commissioners sit, among others. I am confident that this will improve relationships even further. But, as I think I have said, the relationships with local authorities are generally extremely good. The noble Lord may be very pleased to hear that.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, it would be churlish not to congratulate the Government on a fairer formula, although we will need to look at the repercussions. I still meet head teachers who are having to reduce the number of teachers and are under pressure as a result of national insurance, pensions and things like that. There is concern on that front. I have two other points to make. I presume, as we have not heard any reference to it, that the £50 million or so of funding for the extension of grammar schools has disappeared. I hope that will not be a further oncost, as I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on that. I read the couple of paragraphs in the document, but does this sustain the existing pupil premium or slightly increase it? Can the Minister just confirm that? It certainly makes a significant difference in my primary school budget. I have already declared an interest in a previous debate as chair of the governing body.
Schools Update
Lord Young of Norwood Green Excerpts(8 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Nash
Well, that has only recently been announced and I have to say that our plans on it were not very far advanced, so I think describing it as a cut is rather unfair. As I have said, we are making sure that resources are focused more on core school funding and in the hands of head teachers.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I am assuming that £50 million of this saving is because we have not mentioned the expansion of grammar schools. I hope that is the case and I would welcome confirmation of that because, if we are focusing on areas of real need, if ever there was a waste of money it was that. I would also welcome some indication that we are going to continue with the expansion of the university technical college programme.
Lord Nash
The noble Lord is quite right that as a result of the fact that, as I have already said, we will not be removing the ban on new selective schools, there will undoubtedly be some saving there. We intend to continue with the UTC programme, selectively and carefully. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from the early years of the programme but we are confident that it can become very successful, and we have some very good examples of that. I see that my noble friend Lord Baker is not in his place; I am sure that if he were here he would be on his feet very quickly to mention some of them. We certainly intend to continue with the programme.