Investigatory Powers Bill (Second sitting)

Lucy Frazer Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Victoria Atkins]

Q So in those circumstances, as you have said, the police need every tool that they can get to help those very vulnerable young children.

Alan Wardle: Absolutely. Again, as I have said, the issue of grooming is often about a period of time and establishing patterns of behaviour. Being able to gather evidence from a range of sources is really important.

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Q Following on from that, in your work in the NSPCC, do you always see a willingness for children to open up and to tell people in a position of authority personal facts about themselves and their friends, or can it be quite difficult to coax out information about children who are friendly with the vulnerable?

Alan Wardle: It will depend. Generally, it takes quite a lot for a child to come forward and disclose. In recent years, we have seen a huge increase in the number of children who are reporting sexual abuse generally. It is going up across the UK, and was up by about a third last year. A large part of that is because of a greater willingness of children to come forward and talk about the abuse that has happened to them, but we know that it can take decades for people to come forward and talk about abuse.

What we are talking about, particularly sexual abuse, is a very personal thing, so the idea that a 15-year-old who is being groomed will just walk straight into a police station and start disclosing all these very personal things is generally not quite how it works.

[Lucy Frazer]

Q I was also thinking about the case of missing children. If we rely only on their friends and those friends are not willing to disclose personal details, names and the social media sites that their friend is on, do you think there might be a delay in an investigation?

Alan Wardle: There could be, and it depends on the facts of the case. I will return to the main point. As I said before, the police need a range of tools. They will need some very traditional knocking-on-door tools, and they may need a range of technical tools to help identify a child in that situation.

[Lucy Frazer]

Q So it is a combination of tools that will keep children most safe?

Alan Wardle: Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Keir Starmer]

Q That is a technical issue, but legally do you think it is within the definition you are working to?

Mark Hughes: Absolutely. I think it is within the definition as it is written in the draft Bill at the moment.

[Lucy Frazer]

Q Following on from Keir’s questions, there is a concern about the hackability of the volume of data that we have already got. Have we just heard that you already collect this data, albeit not necessarily in the same form or for the same length of time? Is it all still there for someone who wants to access it immediately?

Mark Hughes: No. Not all of the data is collected. We retain lots of data for business purposes, which we therefore retain and secure proportionately and appropriately for that type of information. As I said, there are things in the Bill that are about us having to generate additional records, based on some of the existing information that we have and other types of information that may be necessary in the future.

[Lucy Frazer]

Q But based on the existing information that you have, it is already there.

Mark Hughes: Some of it is already there. Some of it might not be there in the way in which the Bill describes. Some of it is subject to what the actual code of practice determines we have to collect and for how long we have to collect it. Some of those things are unknown at the moment. Suffice it to say, we have lots of information, some of which could constitute or make up an internet connection record as it stands at the moment. We secure that data, and it is accessible if required for business purposes at the moment.

[The Chair]

Thank you very much, Mr Hughes. I am sorry we do not have more time.

Mark Hughes: I am happy to submit written evidence post the sitting.