Margaret Curran
Main Page: Margaret Curran (Labour - Glasgow East)Department Debates - View all Margaret Curran's debates with the Scotland Office
(13 years, 5 months ago)
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David Mundell
The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that I read in detail the debate that took place in the Scottish Parliament on this subject. The hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran) was able to bring to that debate her reflections on her time in Westminster. I am sure that even she would recognise that during the course of that debate, nothing was said that had not already been said in this Parliament in the debate on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. No new argument was made by that day’s coalition of Labour and Scottish National party Members.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
I rise to respond to the provocation by the right hon. Gentleman. Does he not agree that in that debate last week, we saw a remarkable agreement between the Scottish Labour party and the Scottish National party—that is something that we do not often get—which indicates the strength of feeling in Scotland against the Government’s proposals?
David Mundell
I do not accept that at all. I have read the transcript. As the hon. Lady knows, the arguments that have been made previously in this Parliament were simply rehearsed; some were made without using the available information. I noted that she and others did not point out Ron Gould’s contribution to the Scottish Affairs Committee, which I quoted earlier. He said explicitly that it would be possible for the referendum and the Scottish Parliament elections to go ahead on the same day.
Cathy Jamieson
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make some progress. It is important to recognise that the order contained some drafting deficiencies, which the Minister was good enough to highlight. The reason that there has been so much discussion of the order tonight is that there is unfinished business from some of the other debates that have gone on, particularly about the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.
Government Members may shake their heads, but the issue concerns not only the Members present this evening. It is a serious matter for the Members of the Scottish Parliament who voted the way they did because they did not believe that it was right to have the referendum and the Scottish Parliament election on the same day. That was made very clear by the Scottish Parliament’s Local Government and Communities Committee, including, as I understand it, by a member of the same party as the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) who also believes that it was the wrong decision.
The problem is that such an approach has left the people of Scotland, particularly parliamentarians in Scotland, feeling that no matter what they say or do, their votes and views do not count in this place. That is a particular problem because the Government initially set out to talk about and highlight the new respect agenda. That simply has not come to pass, and it has been highlighted once again by the delay in bringing what should have been a relatively uncontroversial order to this Chamber for debate. Perhaps an expert on the constitution and the workings of the House will tell me I am wrong, but I find it odd that we should have discussed the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which refers to the order, in advance of the order itself. That seems highly unusual, and I hope that the Minister refers to that in his winding-up comments.
People keep raising concerns about holding the referendum and Scottish Parliament elections on the same day, because we have bitter experience of things going badly wrong. We understand that mistakes were made last time, and we want to ensure that they do not happen again, so I find it difficult to listen to the Minister selectively quoting Mr Ron Gould. If we are serious about ensuring that we do not repeat the same problems, we should take account of everything that the Gould report says.
On several occasions I have pressed Ministers to tell me whether they will listen to the views of the Scottish Parliament. I have heard warm words but seen absolutely no action.
Margaret Curran
The Minister referred to last week’s debate in the Scottish Parliament and my participation in it. I said that no plausible explanation had been given as to why the Scottish Parliament had not been consulted on the process. Given that the Parliament passed the relevant motion by a two-thirds majority and the Minister knows the importance of its view, does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should recognise its expressed will?
Cathy Jamieson
I absolutely understand my hon. Friend’s position, and she is absolutely right. I hope that in closing I can give the Minister one final opportunity to recognise the will of the Scottish Parliament and state that he not only hears it, but will do something about it.
Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)
There are many issues of substance in the order. We want to be very co-operative with the Government, as has happened in our relationships with Governments in the past when we have had to ensure that we had successful Scottish Parliament elections. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) said, the problem is that we have got off to a very bad start, particularly regarding the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, the problems with which have already been indicated.
I have to tell the Government that the determined view in Scotland is that the Government are showing something of a pattern in their attitude to the Scottish parliamentary elections, and perhaps in their attitude to Scotland. I am disappointed about that given that I know the Under-Secretary very well and have, I think, worked with him reasonably constructively in the past. I am disappointed by his attitude to last week’s Scottish Parliament debate, of which he seemed so disdainful and dismissive. That was not his attitude in the past, and it is beginning to be symptomatic of this Government’s attitude to the Scottish Parliament, where substantial points were raised in that debate.
The core of this argument is that, as been acknowledged, an enormous mistake was made in the elections of 2007. Essentially, people believed that the arrangements for the elections were devised to suit the politicians, not the voters. I say in all sincerity that we are in danger of making that mistake again. This is illustrative of the attitude to the Scottish Parliament debate, where we were trying to point out that there are issues of substance. The best way to resolve them is through dialogue and constructive engagement. The fact that the coalition Government made this decision without even cursory reference to the Scottish Parliament or the elected Government of Scotland raises serious and continuing questions about their approach. That undermines our confidence in the Government’s ability to resolve the problem.
Mr MacNeil
I am grateful. Given the problem that the hon. Lady is highlighting, does she not feel that that power should reside with the Scottish Parliament, not here?
Margaret Curran
I know that that has been under discussion for some time, and I think the hon. Gentleman knows our views on that. However, I wish to stick to the core argument.
I make a plea to the Government, who have a real opportunity. If they are prepared to engage with key parties and listen to the different perspectives, perhaps we can come to a shared resolution. Their intransigent attitude of asserting rather than engaging in argument is leading to enormous difficulty, which will be confirmed next year. I plead with the Minister to try to resolve the problem rather than just weep at it when it occurs, and I ask the coalition Government finally to engage with the Scottish Parliament on matters as important as the elections to that Parliament.
David Mundell
I will respond to as many points related to the order as I can in the time available to me, but if some matters are not covered, I undertake to write to the Members in question. To allow the fullest possible debate, I thought it right to take a large number of interventions because the order and the other matters raised are important to people in Scotland.
I accept the sincerity of the comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), but I do not accept that it shows disdain for the Scottish Parliament not to agree with a conclusion that it reaches in a debate. I respect its right to have that debate, although frankly I am extremely surprised that it took three months for it to take place if the issue was of such a pressing nature for the public in Scotland. Some valuable contributions were made in it, but they reflected contributions made when the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill was debated in this House. Nothing new was added to lead the Government to any view other than that we should hold the referendum on 5 May. Of course, we commit to working with the Scottish Government, Scottish political parties and the Scottish Parliament to ensure that the election and referendum on that day are a success.
Margaret Curran
May I ask why the Minister did not consult the Scottish Parliament about the proposal? Does he regard that as a breach of the respect agenda?
David Mundell
I do not accept that it was a breach of the mutual respect agenda that this Government are pursuing. It was right that a provision of such significance be brought to this House first. As soon as it had been announced to this House, the Scotland Office was in contact with the Scottish Government and parties in the Scottish Parliament, and it has maintained that dialogue.
As I indicated earlier, we accept that the coincidence of the 2015 elections is a significant issue to consider. That is why, earlier in the summer, the Secretary of State wrote to parties and authorities in Scotland to acknowledge that fact, and why the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), indicated that there would be a consultation on the matter. I look forward to hearing the views of the Scottish Labour party and the other parties in the Scottish Parliament as part of that consultation. We are committed to our agenda of mutual respect, and that is highlighted no better than in the Bill that we will shortly bring forward to enhance greatly the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament.
The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made a number of points about the cost of the count. We have been quite clear that the additional costs of the referendum will be met by the UK Government.
We are short of time. The regulations that are contained in the order will allow additional time for consideration of postal voting issues. I have confidence that the Royal Mail in Scotland will be able to cope with all the issues that have been raised.
The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) raised a number of points, but I share the view of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) that it was not clear where they were heading. I do not know whether we were being criticised for being too rushed or for being too slow.
The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) showed that he had learned shamelessness from the master, the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), in suggesting that his party would have brought forward this order quicker. It is not the case; we have kept to as tight a timetable as we can and we have kept the rationale of the previous Government. Many of the issues he raised related to the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which is currently being dealt with in another place, and, to an extent, to the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill.
The other evening I heard his other mentor, the noble Lord McAvoy, making a passionate speech, highlighting many of the same issues. He raised some specific points, which I will respond to in writing.
Question put.
The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 1 December (Standing Order No.41A).