Tax Avoidance, Evasion and Compliance

Debate between Margaret Hodge and Mel Stride

Monday 4th March 2019 Commons Chamber

[Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

I know that this Government find it difficult to listen to anybody and to accept the will of Parliament and legislation if they do not like what it says—they have form—but I want to ask the Minister two questions, one relating to the overseas territories and one relating to the Crown dependencies. On the overseas territories, it is utterly shameful for this Government to ignore legislation that was enacted only last year and to invent their own date for the implementation of public registers of beneficial ownership. If the Government are serious about wanting to tackle tax avoidance, tax evasion, financial crime and money laundering, they ought to be acting with greater speed, not delaying the implementation of legislation and ignoring the will of Parliament. Will the Minister explain to us what on earth the Government are doing?

On the Crown dependencies, I cannot for the life of me understand how the Minister can pray in aid the constitutional implications of this House legislating on a matter that was perfectly in scope in relation to the Bill that the House is considering and perfectly in order on the matters it was attempting to address. Such praying in aid of inadequate and ill-thought-through reasons simply will not do. Indeed, I cannot understand why the Minister does not recognise the consensus across this House on the issue. Transparency is a vital tool in fighting tax avoidance, evasion and financial crime, and all we want is that transparency to exist across the family. Would it not be better for the Minister to concede gracefully to the will of Parliament, rather than battling limply to a defeat in the future?

[Mel Stride]

I assure the right hon. Lady that I always listen extremely carefully to what she has to say, as I have done in the context of her current two questions. She asked why we are delaying—as she terms it—the implementation of public registers of beneficial interest for overseas territories. The short answer is that it is important that we allow time to ensure that we get these things right, not least because our Parliament is legislating on behalf of another jurisdiction—albeit one that is closely related to ourselves. It is important that we are considered and measured in that way.

The right hon. Lady’s second question relates to the Crown dependencies. She made the quite legitimate point that the amendment to the legislation that was due to go through this afternoon was indeed in scope and in order. However, that is not the same as saying that that contradicts my earlier point that that particular amendment would have considerable and significant constitutional ramifications for our Crown dependencies. For that reason, as I stated earlier, the Government feel that it is important to reflect carefully upon that before we come back with the legislation in due course

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Margaret Hodge and Mel Stride

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 11th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

As my hon. Friend will know, we brought in a variety of measures in 2015 that changed the basis of taxation for banks. Over the period of the coming forecast, we will be receiving some £4.5 billion in additional income from banks by way of taxation as a consequence of those changes.

From April 2018, new diesel cars will go up one vehicle excise duty band in their first-year rate, and the existing company car tax diesel supplement will increase by one percentage point. However, drivers of petrol and ultra low emissions vehicles—cars, vans and heavy goods vehicles—will not be affected, and nor will those who have already bought a diesel car. As the Chancellor said at the Budget, white van man and white van woman can rest easy.

[Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

White van man and white van woman will rest easier if the Government successfully bring in all moneys due. Will the Minister explain why he has limited the scope of the Finance Bill in such a way that amendments cannot be tabled to ensure that we have a date by which measures such as country-by-country reporting, which is crucial to bringing in tax that is otherwise avoided, should be introduced?

[Mel Stride]

I think that the right hon. Lady is referring to an amendment of the law resolution. The previous Finance Bill was introduced under exactly the same Ways and Means procedure. There is nothing in the resolutions that prohibits full, open and proper discussion and scrutiny of the Bill. It will go through all its usual stages, including two full days in Committee of the whole House, and eight sittings—if it takes that amount of time—upstairs in Committee, before coming back to the Chamber for Third Reading.

Since the financial crisis, UK productivity growth has slowed. It now stands at just 0.1%. The Government know that restoring strong productivity growth is the only sustainable way to increase wages and improve living standards in the long term. Consequently, a quarter of a trillion pounds of public and private investment has been funnelled into major infrastructure projects since 2010, including the biggest rail modernisation programme since Victorian times, the Mersey Gateway bridge and, more recently, Crossrail. Many others are detailed in the Infrastructure and Projects Authority’s national infrastructure pipeline. The Government have also cut taxes to support business investment and improved access to finance through the British Business Bank. However, we can and will go further.

To boost productivity and create sustainable economic growth, the Government are making further provisions to support the UK’s dynamic, risk-taking businesses. The UK continues to be a world-leading place to start a business, with 650,000 start-ups in 2016 alone. However, some of the UK’s most innovative new businesses with the greatest potential are struggling to scale up due to lack of finance. Specifically, 10 of the UK’s largest 100 listed firms were created after 1975, compared with 19 in the United States of America. In order properly to understand these barriers to finance, the Treasury commissioned the patient capital review, led by Sir Damon Buffini. Supported by Sir Damon’s industry panel, the review concluded that knowledge-intensive companies, which are particularly research and development-intensive, often require considerable up-front capital to fund growth. It may be many years before their products can be brought to market and, despite their growth potential, such companies often face acute funding gaps.

In response to the review’s findings, the Government are acting. We are setting out a £20 billion action plan, combining investment with tax incentives. As part of the plan, the Bill will make more investment available to high-risk, innovative businesses. It does so by doubling the annual limits for how much investment knowledge-intensive companies can receive through the enterprise investment scheme and venture capital trusts schemes to £10 million, and doubling the limit on how much investors can invest through the EIS to £2 million, providing that anything above £1 million is invested in knowledge-intensive companies. In 2016-17, 62% of investment by EIS funds was aimed at capital preservation, rather than higher-risk, higher-potential, long-term growth companies. The Bill therefore reforms the schemes, redirecting low-risk investment into growing entrepreneurial companies, while changing venture capital trust rules to encourage higher-growth investments. In all, we expect these changes to result in over £7 billion of new and redirected investment in growing companies over the next 10 years.

Additional efforts to boost productivity also focus on increasing funding for research and development. At the 2016 autumn statement, £4.7 billion was allocated to R and D, and this Budget extended the national productivity investment fund to £31 billion and increased R and D investment by a further £2.3 billion. This means that the Government will be investing an additional £7 billion in R and D over the next four years—the largest increase in four decades.

We have already announced initial plans for this investment, including £170 million to help the construction industry to build cheaper and better homes; £210 million to develop new technologies that enable the early diagnosis of chronic diseases; a commitment to supporting the development of immersive technologies and artificial intelligence; and more than £300 million to develop and attract the skills and talent necessary to deliver our scientific ambitions. These efforts are complemented by our decision to increase the rate of R and D expenditure credit from 11% to 12%, as set out in the Bill.

The Bill will ensure that the tax system is fair, balanced and sustainable. To that end, it freezes the indexation allowance that currently allows companies but not individuals to reduce their taxable gains in line with inflation. It allows Scottish police and fire services to recover future VAT payments, which would otherwise be lost following the Scottish Government’s decision to restructure those services. I should pay tribute to my Scottish colleagues on the Government side of the House who lobbied so effectively in that respect.

The Bill narrows the scope of the bank levy so that, from 2021, all banks—UK and foreign-headquartered—will be taxed only on their UK operations.

Public Country-by-country Reporting

Debate between Margaret Hodge and Mel Stride

Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak before you this afternoon, Mrs Main. I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) on securing this debate. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) on actually getting this practice on to the statute book in 2016.

I will just add, very briefly, to what has been said so far. It is great that there is consensus this afternoon across the parties, and that kind of consensus is what I have encountered in many of the discussions that I have had on these issues. I hope that the Government will listen and act on that consensus in a way that would win support among the vast majority of Members of this House and outside this House. My only quarrel with the hon. Member for Amber Valley is that I do not think that would be taking unilateral action; I think we would be showing bold leadership if we were the first to act in this area.

I want to make three brief points. First, one issue arising from the Paradise papers that has not been raised, and for which country-by-country reporting would be an important part of the answer, is that corporations and companies were revealed to be seeking locations for their business in a way that would create artificial financial structures that existed simply for the purpose of avoiding tax. Apple received some coverage in the papers, but it is utterly awful that all Apple’s activity outside the USA is now housed, I think, in Jersey and is worth, according to what we can uncover, £252 billion. It is very difficult to find what Apple’s rate of tax is, but one of its companies—according to the European Union, I think; no doubt my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) will make this clear from the Front Bench—ended up paying a rate of tax of 0.005% on its earnings here.

It is clear from the Paradise papers that Apple sought to find a financial structure that would allow it to avoid paying tax in those jurisdictions outside America where it carried out its economic activity and secured its profits. One of the purposes of transparency in country-by-country reporting would be to see where Apple was undertaking its economic activity and therefore where it should be taxed. Over half of Apple’s business is outside the USA; it is simply not getting taxed in the places that it should be.

The other company is Nike. Anyone who buys a pair of Nike trainers in any UK shop would think that the tax was paid here, but it is not. It used to go to Holland and it then ended up, in a complicated way, in Bermuda. Since then, a new structure has been invented: Nike Innovate C.V. It is a virtual entity; it does not have a location. It is not based anywhere. That structure enables Nike to avoid paying the tax that it should in the jurisdictions where it carries out its business and makes its profits. The big corporations would not be able to carry out their business in the way they currently do, as revealed most recently through the Paradise papers, if we had transparent, open, public country-by-country reporting.

The second thing I want to talk about is collecting money from tax avoidance. I hope the Minister will give us a bit of information in his response, as I am rather tired of hearing from the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Minister about how brilliantly this Government are doing at collecting that money.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)]

indicated assent.

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

The Minister is nodding his head, but the Government should be honest with us. The figure of £160 billion that is currently used—I have heard it used time and time again—is simply an HMRC estimate of the money due from tax avoidance that it has uncovered. It does not tell us how much has been collected or how much has been added to the coffers.

Since the Minister used the figure in a debate last week, I have tried to identify how much we have actually got in. I have asked everybody. I have asked the National Audit Office and the Library. I have tabled questions to the Minister, to which he has yet to reply—perhaps he will reply this afternoon. No one actually tells one how much has been collected in tax avoidance. My guess is that it is a tiny, minute amount of that £160 billion that the Government claim they have got in. Please be honest with us. A little bit of honesty will enable us to have a proper debate.

The final point I want to make, adding to what others have said, is that if the Minister showed the bold leadership we want him to show by having public registers of beneficial ownership, he would be incredibly popular. I would have thought that there could not be a better time than now for Conservative Members to try to gain some popularity. I will give three examples of what has happened recently. After the release of the Paradise papers, the Tax Justice Network launched a petition that gained more than 200,000 signatures. It has now presented that petition to Downing Street. Oxfam did some polling that showed that eight out of 10 members of the public think that multinationals with UK headquarters should publish information publicly about the size of their profits, where they are made, what taxes are paid and the countries in which they operate. Some 70% of Conservative voters believe that the Government should be more active in tackling tax avoidance by companies. Some 80% of Conservative voters are in favour of tougher transparency rules for companies.

The final survey I wanted to refer to was of the FTSE 100. Four out of every five of the top 100 FTSE companies would not oppose the introduction of a legal requirement to make their country-by-country reports public. In fact, a large number would support it. The hon. Member for Amber Valley eloquently made the point that the reporting requirements in other legislation to date are pretty open. Why not put this requirement into the mix? It is supported by the analysis.

This is the fourth debate on these issues in the past month that I have participated in, and I will carry on holding such debates time and time again. I am sorry if the Minister feels it is not the best use of his time, but we will carry on doing this. This is a campaign we are absolutely determined to win, and part of that campaign is public country-by-country reporting.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) for having secured what I think we all accept is an extremely important debate. I also thank him for the advice he has been able to give me over the months and years on matters as exciting as corporate taxation.

I also welcome my hon. Friend’s support for some of the measures in today’s Budget—this is not an area of Government policy that we are going to be neglecting anytime soon; we are going to be all over this space in a very significant manner. He specifically raised measures relating to VAT and the collection of VAT from those who use digital platforms. We are indeed introducing joint and several liability to make sure that we step up the clampdown on, in that instance, VAT fraud.

The right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) suggested that our figures were not durable and questioned the veracity of our numbers. We have secured £160 billion through clamping down on tax evasion and non-compliance, and that figure appears in HMRC’s annual report and accounts, which are of course audited by the National Audit Office.

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

That is not secured money; it is money to which HMRC feels it is entitled but has yet to secure. My experience from the Falciani Swiss leak suggests that intentions do not become reality.

[Mel Stride]

I do not think the right hon. Lady and I are going to agree on that particular point. One point we might agree on is the tax gap, which is 6%—the lowest in our history. That is the difference between that which we should be collecting and that which we are collecting. It is a world-beating figure, also audited by the NAO. According to the International Monetary Fund, it sets a world standard in terms of robustness.

As you will know, Mrs Main, we have done a great deal over the years in clamping down on tax avoidance and evasion. In the Finance (No. 2) Act 2017, which has just gone through Parliament, we introduced corporate interest restrictions to stop companies shifting profits around by the ingenious use of intra-company loans. We had the diverted profits tax in 2015, which addresses a number of the examples we heard in the debate today. We have been in the vanguard of the base erosion and profit shifting project at the OECD. We are benefiting now from the common reporting standards across 50 countries—rising to 100—so account information is available to HMRC in real time. We are engaged with the EU on mandatory disclosure rules to make sure that we can clamp down on schemes, through those who are party to them.

The right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) raised the issue of the information required from the extraction sector and the financial sector in comparison with the ask on country-by-country reporting. Those are of course different sets of information. In the case of the extraction sector and the financial sector, the information required is significantly less exhaustive than would be the case in country-by-country reporting.

The right hon. Lady also asked a very important and pertinent question about how many countries would need to say yes for us to feel that we could go ahead on a multilateral basis. I suppose that gives rise to other questions, such as which countries and what mix of countries. She can rest assured that as and when, as we hope, we reach the point when sufficient countries say they will sign up, we will be pleased to do so. I add my congratulations to her for the hard work that she did, particularly on the Finance Act 2016, to ensure that her amendment reached the statute book.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) spoke about the importance of international standards. He also raised the issue of intangible assets, which is one of the common threads running through the issues of companies shifting profits around. If there is clearly economic activity in a particular place, it is much easier to pin the profits to where that activity is occurring than if there are, for example, digital companies that are selling substantially into the United Kingdom but basing their operations elsewhere. That can be through royalty payments on intellectual property charges between companies; it is quite possible to avoid tax as a consequence. That is why we announced in the Budget today that we will be looking at introducing the withholding of taxes in respect of royalty payments for IP, where they relate to movements of income between ourselves and very low-tax jurisdictions. We will be looking into that whole area by way of consultation.

I was tickled by the suggestion from the right hon. Member for Barking that she could feed me ideas that would make me more popular within my own party. I look forward to hearing as many of those as she cares to pass my way, because I am very interested in being so popular.

The hon. Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) raised the issue of registers of beneficial ownership across, particularly, Crown dependencies and overseas territories. We have those; they are not public, but they are accessible in real time by HMRC and we have a good record in tracking down people who try to stash money away in, for example, overseas trusts. We have raised £2.8 billion in that respect since 2010. I was pleased that the hon. Lady welcomed the measures in today’s Budget that extend to 12 years the time period in which we can go after individuals who have been involved in just that kind of activity.

In my final couple of minutes, I want to focus on the principal arguments. We are not against country-by-country reporting. We welcome the opportunity to move to exactly that situation, but to do so unilaterally will not work, for at least three reasons. It would certainly make the UK less competitive than other tax jurisdictions. I see no reason why any particular business should want to go to a country with that in place as strongly as they would want to go where it is not in place. If it were just us alone, we would also be in the position of not being able to get public disclosure if a UK company had associated non-UK companies in other jurisdictions and not under that company’s control. The big advantage of going multilaterally is the standardisation of the standards that we set and the rules and regulations around each particular step.

The Government will continue to work towards bringing in not just country-by-country reporting as we have at the moment, but public country-by-country reporting. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley and all those who have contributed to the debate for helping to inform that discussion.

Tax Avoidance and Evasion

Debate between Margaret Hodge and Mel Stride

Tuesday 14th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mel Stride]

I will now make some progress. I am aware that this is just a two-hour debate and that many Members wish to speak.

We have covered the various measures that we have taken, and we have covered the huge investment that we have made in HMRC. Perhaps I can now turn to the international aspects. We all agree that we need to look closely at what is happening in the international sphere. On that, this Government have a record of which we can be proud. Through the OECD, we have been in the vanguard of the base erosion and profit shifting project. We have worked closely with the Crown dependencies and overseas territories.

We have brought in a diverted profits tax, which will raise £1.3 billion by 2019, and common reporting standards to ensure that information is exchanged in relation to around 100 countries. We have introduced a directory of beneficial ownership that is accessible by HMRC, the authority that needs to have that information. All this has happened in the last couple of years, and it is a game changer. Many of the issues arising from the Paradise papers go back very many years, but these measures are in place right now.

I also want to make an important point on transparency. In last week’s debate, I asked the right hon. Member for Barking, in relation to the 13 million files held by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, whether she would join me in calling on the ICIJ to release that information to HMRC so that we could go after anyone who, as a consequence of that data release, was thought to be abusing our tax system. Will she support us in that endeavour?

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

The Minister did raise that point last week, and the House should know that it is not in the gift of either The Guardian or “Panorama” to release those papers. They are not able to do that.

[Mel Stride]

What I actually asked was whether the right hon. Lady would join me in calling for the ICIJ to release that information. [Interruption.] That is a slightly different question, and I am happy to give way again if she will tell us, yes or no, whether she will do that. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Stop the clock. There is far too much noise in this Chamber. I say gently to the Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp): don’t do it! You may think you are being clever, but it does not enhance your reputation as a parliamentarian in the end. Please don’t do it. It is juvenile, the public despise it and I have no patience for it.

[Dame Margaret Hodge]

I will certainly join the Minister in seeking any documentation that HMRC requires to pursue those who are guilty of avoidance or evasion. I would say to him, however, that when I have given papers to HMRC in the past—whether relating to Google or from other whistleblowers—they have just disappeared and no action ever appears to have been taken.

[Mel Stride]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. I will take that as a yes—we can work together to try to ensure that that information is provided to HMRC. I see no reason why that should not happen.

Paradise Papers

Debate between Margaret Hodge and Mel Stride

Monday 6th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Dame Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)]

The real problem with all the action that has been taken so far is that it has not got to the heart of the issue, which is that we need to have openness and transparency about who owns what company and where, and who owns what trust. There is a very simple action that the Government could take without any legislation, and that would immediately slice through a lot of the problems that we have seen in the Paradise papers, the Panama papers, the Falciani leaks and the Luxembourg leaks. Why will the Government not insist now that our overseas territories—our tax havens—have public registers of beneficial ownership?

[Mel Stride]

As the right hon. Lady knows, there are many good reasons why, for perfectly honest and decent purposes, individuals use trusts. She also knows that we have made a great deal of progress on the common reporting standard across 100 different countries, including those to which she alludes. We are also bringing forward the registers of beneficial ownership across those jurisdictions so that HMRC has the information that it requires.