Building Safety Bill (Sixth sitting)
Debate between Marie Rimmer and Shaun Bailey(2 years, 7 months ago)
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Shaun Bailey
I welcome the aims of the clause, in combination with other clauses. It is right that the regulator is able to review competences. As we heard in the evidence sessions, the one thing we are trying to fight here is the race to the bottom in standards and in how people behave in the industry more broadly.
On the point that the hon. Member for Weaver Vale made, we heard interesting evidence about building inspectors and what they are doing. I found that interesting because my training and background is as a lawyer, and we were always taught that, irrespective of the client that instructed us, we still had an ultimate responsibility for the administration of justice. It was slightly concerning to hear that evidence, because it felt at times that there was not that overarching responsibility. I am hopeful that we can perhaps re-embed that through clause 6.
Irrespective of the debate that we might have about building inspectors and how they operate, and whether the local authority model or the private model works, there is a broader discussion here about where the fiduciary duty will go. Hopefully, clause 6, in establishing that review—that committee—and allowing the BSR to do that can start those discussions again and really look the industry in the eye and say, “What are you doing?” As I say, the evidence we heard was, at times, quite shocking. I am hopeful that clause 6, combined with other clauses, will enable us to have that broad-brush conversation and to review the industry, in order to ensure we have something that works for the safety of residents living in these developments and a gloves-off discussion about how that operates. I welcome this clause, Mr Davies, and it has my full support.
Ms Marie Rimmer (St Helens South and Whiston) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. The National Fire Chiefs Council talked about the need for building control independence. We know that things have gone wrong in the past and that there is scope for that to happen in the future with the private sector being involved, as highlighted in Dame Judith Hackitt’s report. In its written evidence, the NFCC wrote:
“While there is ample evidence that private sector participation in building control can bring efficiencies, if not implemented correctly such a delegation of regulatory mandate can come with significant unintended consequences.”
I do not believe it is intended to have those consequences but that is what has been said. It continued:
“A 2018 report by the World Bank found private sector participation in construction regulation in 93 out of 190 economies. The report concluded that, for such an arrangement to work as intended, the public sector should regulate private third-party professionals and firms and reported that in 76% of economies that make use of third-party inspectors, regulations explicitly require the independence of third-party inspectors; they should have no financial interests in the project and should not be related to the investor or builder.
The report concluded that private sector participation should be accompanied by appropriate safeguards that favour the public interest over private profits.”
That is the nub of this. The evidence goes on:
“We believe that the change to remove the ability for clients to choose their own regulator, is necessary to apply to the whole of the built environment.”
And that point was made by the World Bank.
I ask the Minister to consider these points.
Building Safety Bill (Fourth sitting)
Debate between Marie Rimmer and Shaun Bailey(2 years, 7 months ago)
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Ms Rimmer
Q
Dr Glen: I do. As we discussed earlier, if you look at the Law Commission reforms on enfranchisement, right to manage and promoting commonhold, you see that a drive of Government is for self-determination of a block. Looking at future blocks, where you have lay boards trying to unpick something that happened 12 years ago with a plc developer, I do not see that as a realistic scenario, so I do not think the Bill works.
The other issue is that there are many things in the Bill and in the Hackitt reforms that are admirable in helping, protecting and improving safety for new builds going forward, but what on earth do we do with the 4.6 million-plus leaseholds that we currently have?
Martin Boyd: May I add one thing? We have a problem in this country. If you buy a leasehold flat that is new, it is never surveyed. You do not have a survey of that building. In other countries that have a commonhold system, part of the conditions of the initial purchase is that a completely independent survey is carried out that validates that the building has been created to a reasonable standard. We are proposing part of that within the Building Safety Regulator, but there does not seem to be a final sign-off that says, “Here you are, Mr Customer. We have checked the building for you as the customer.” That would make things an awful lot easier than creating yet another ombudsman, who in reality will do like most other ombudsmen do, which is reach some small decisions but find it very difficult to reach big decisions.
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
Q
Martin Boyd: A similar issue cropped up during the passage of the Water Bill, where it was argued that leasehold properties should be excluded from the protections of Flood Re because it was a commercial policy taken out by the freeholder. Everyone in the leasehold sector tried to explain to the Government at the time that that is not how it works. The bills are all being paid by the leaseholders; it is just that the landlord is deemed to pass this on.
The difficulty we have with freeholders in the leasehold system—you heard from Richard Silver this morning—is that they have no interest whatsoever in the quality of the building. It makes not a cent of difference to their profit line whether that building is falling down or is in pristine condition. The only people who are concerned about it are those who live in it. The freeholders will say, “We have a long-term interest in the estate,” which is rather interesting because Long Harbour has been in existence for less time than we have, and we have not been around for a huge amount of time. I have owned my flat for twice as long as Long Harbour has been in existence. So you have the problem that until we move to a commonhold structure, you have a conflict of interest between somebody deemed to be the building owner, who is only interested in how they make a profit from the building. and all the people who live in the building, who want to ensure that it works for them. Some will want to reduce costs, some will want to invest for the future, but they will all have an interest in the building and about the fact that it is in good condition.
Dr Glen: As I mentioned earlier, it is a very complex situation. If we look at the portfolio of ARMA members, where we know who owns the building—is it leaseholder-organised, with residential management companies and right-to-manage companies, or is it third-party landlord? —in 60% of the cases we know about, there is a leaseholder structure. So when you say the landlord should pay, in many cases that is going to be the leaseholders, because they actually own the freehold.
I remember an interesting discussion I had with a colleague of yours, Hilary Benn, about the idea of a compulsory purchase order. We took him through the economics. As Martin alluded to earlier, you see this big building and you think “Gosh, that must be worth a fortune,” whereas in fact it is really a financial instrument. The value of that to the freeholder is typically what the ground rent is over a certain period of time. If the ground rent is £200 and there are a hundred units there, that is £20,000 a year. So if you go to somebody and say, “Unless you pay £2 million to remediate this building, I will compulsory purchase order you,” and that somebody is thinking, “Well, I only get £20,000 a year,” that person will kiss you and say, “Give me market rate, CPO me, and you have now just taken on a £2 million problem.”
So although it sounds good, I do not think that is the route. The danger is that by saying “Ooh, yes, we can get the freeholders to do it,” unfortunately all that means is that it gives false hope because there is not that bucket of money there. So again, be careful, because many RMCs and RTMs are also the freeholder and we do not want to put them in the firing line either.
Building Safety Bill (First sitting)
Debate between Marie Rimmer and Shaun Bailey(2 years, 8 months ago)
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Ms Rimmer
Q
Graham Watts: We are obviously at an early stage in the development of the new powers for the product regulator. As we have discovered from the Grenfell evidence, it is an absolutely imperative aspect of the Bill, so I certainly welcome that side of it. The work that has been done in the industry to ensure integrity in the marketing information for construction products has been scandalously shocking in the past. As somebody from the industry, I am ashamed of the fact that we did not wake up to that, but I welcome a rigorous attention to the regulation of construction products and also the Government’s recent decision to postpone the implementation of the conformity assessed mark for a year, because that was causing huge problems in the construction sector. Personally, I think a year is not enough, but at least it is a step forward.
Adrian Dobson: My answer is probably similar to before. There is an inevitability that there will have to be secondary regulation. Maybe an area that it does not address is that once we get to the stage of developing revised guidance, we have some questions about how much different sectors of the industry have been able to influence the testing process. If you are going to rely on testing to give you confidence about the performance of products, that genuinely needs to be independent testing. I will be interested to see what the regulations say about that and how they keep that independence of the testing.
Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)
Q
Graham Watts: Both of those things are equally vital. I think the industry welcomed the decision to place the Building Safety Regulator within the HSE, because it is a well-respected agency and people take notice of its interventions. We understand that the regulator is likely to have somewhere in the region of 750 staff. It is not going to be an insubstantial body, and I am sure it will take effective enforcement action, but it needs buy-in from the industry. That comes back to my earlier point about a culture change within the industry, and not just in terms of the scope of the legislation—it must go beyond that. As people have said, the twin-track approach to regulations could be confusing and complex. We understand why there needs to be a limitation on the scope to begin with; otherwise, the system will not cope and will collapse. But there will be confusing areas at the margins, and it is essential that the industry adopts the same approach to its work on buildings that are not in scope and on buildings that are in scope. We cannot have a twin-track approach as far as safety is concerned.
Adrian Dobson: In fairness to the Government, it is difficult for the Government to regulate the competence and behaviours of the industry. Without the industry acting as a willing partner, it is virtually impossible, and the Bill tries very hard in that area. A more contentious issue is to what degree you have an element of prescription in what is done. We have had an element of prescription, and it was probably agreed that that was necessary because we had a stock of buildings that there were serious doubts about. I know that the Mayor of London has introduced an element that has been quite controversial, but I suspect that working out where the balance is will be quite difficult. When it comes to fundamental elements of fire and structural safety, I wonder whether you will inevitably end up with some firmer guidance. It might become prescriptive regulation or just clearer guidance on the basics of means of escape, compartmentation, alarms and sprinklers. Those are the fairly basic safety systems that buildings rely on.