Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Mark Simmonds and Stewart Hosie

Monday 11th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

I am grateful for that intervention. The hon. Gentleman will not be surprised to hear that I do not share his analysis. In fact, the parallels are interesting. I would argue that in the early 1980s Geoffrey Howe and Margaret Thatcher were clearing up the mess that they inherited from the previous Labour Administration, just as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Liberal Democrat colleagues in the coalition are tidying up the mess that we inherited from the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and Tony Blair, his predecessor.

[Stewart Hosie]

The hon. Gentleman is giving an interesting analysis, which I do not share at all. He spoke about monetary loosening and monetary expansion. We have had a zero bound in interest rates and 99% of the £200 billion of quantitative easing has gone to buy Government debt—it has gone right through the tube, without hitting the sides of the real economy. Where does he think the monetary easing and expansion will come from to give the cash needed by businesses that want to invest? It is not coming from QE.

[Mark Simmonds]

The hon. Gentleman is right, in a way. I hope that interest rates will remain low for a considerable time to give businesses confidence to borrow money, when they need to, to invest; we could be having a whole argument about the banking sector and structure as well. When interest rates start to tick up again, I hope that the quantitative easing position will start to unwind and the Bank of England will start to sell some of the QE back into the market, which will then create confidence. Personally, I am very nervous about future quantitative easing; we have probably done just about enough. If interest rates stay low as a loose monetary policy, I am reasonably confident that we will have steady growth, for reasons that I have just explained.

From where will the potential dangers come? I do not think that we are assured a return to good times expeditiously. There are risks and problems, particularly in the global economic context—especially given the need to balance the UK economy away from consumer expenditure and the financial sector. I am afraid that recent news from around the world has not necessarily been encouraging. US economic growth is slowing, Chinese manufacturing is cooling and problems in Japan may spread to other Asian economies. Furthermore, there is the dangerous US-China currency stand-off, which could lead to protectionist policies. I very much hope that those will not be put in place.

If we are to have a strong export-led-growth UK model, we will require a strong eurozone. Although the eurozone grew strongly in the second quarter of this year, it remains highly dependent on German growth. We will have to monitor extremely carefully the impact that fiscal tightening has in the eurozone and its particular relevance to UK exports, although I very much hope that that will be assisted by a weakening and a sterling depreciation. Given what they inherited, the Government’s macro-economic policy is absolutely right.

I want to focus on a particular aspect of the Finance Bill. It relates to the aside, made by the Exchequer Secretary in his opening remarks, about real estate investment trusts, which are covered by clause 10 and schedule 4 of the Bill. I support the changes that are set out, but I have a couple of specific questions, which the Minister could answer in her winding-up speech or about which she could write to me, with a copy of the letter being put into the House of Commons Library.

At the moment, dividends through real estate investment trusts, which are tax-friendly vehicles for the ownership of property, particularly commercial property, have to be paid in cash. The Bill will allow them to be paid in stock as well. What will the tax status of those dividends paid in stock be? Will income tax or capital gains tax apply? Clearly, capital gains is paid only when a gain is realised or made. What would happen if the stock deteriorated rather than increased in value? In the Bill there seems to be some provision for a market value. I am not sure how that will work in practice and over what time scale that market value will be assessed.

Real estate investment trusts, which the previous Government brought in, are an excellent vehicle for the ownership of commercial real estate in particular. The HMRC REIT unit has a very good reputation and is extremely helpful to those involved in the industry. However, there are issues that should be in the Bill but are not. The Treasury needs to consider them to improve real estate investment trusts.

The trusts should be the worldwide answer to property investment, in which all our pension funds invest. They are very significant to the future well-being of most of the UK’s population. We need to make the reforms to strengthen further the position of the UK as a place for these important capital markets. The current tax structure of REITs should have put an end to the offshore floating of companies and funds, but that has not happened. It is very complex to bring back onshore a fund that is already listed elsewhere. The Treasury needs to consider ways of simplifying the procedure, therefore reducing the costs and making such a move more efficient and effective.

The Treasury also needs to look at the transition period, which is currently 12 months. It needs to be three years. Some 75% of the money raised inside a real estate investment trust has to be spent within 12 months, and that needs to be looked at and extended. At the moment, to avoid losing their status, investment trusts are having to invest in incorrect assets that are not necessarily going to produce the returns that the people involved believe they should be getting for themselves or their shareholders, whether individuals or pension funds. That issue needs to be looked at carefully.

I am also extremely nervous about the income cover rule. I will not bother boring the House with that at the moment, although officials will know what I am talking about. Currently, it is 10%, but I would argue that it needs to be the same as the takeover percentage, which is about 29.9%.

I want to make one final point about real estate investment trusts. Currently, they can be listed only on recognised exchanges. That does not include the alternative investment market, or the AIM. Many smaller REITs want to float on the AIM so that they can generate income and funds and grow their business. At the moment, they have to be listed both on the AIM and an exchange offshore. That adds costs and bureaucracy and it is utterly unnecessary. I should like the Treasury to make dual listing a thing of the past and make it much easier for entrepreneurial REITs and new REITs.

[Mark Simmonds]

I am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend, who is absolutely right. If he has an interest in these matters, he will also be aware that one of the outstanding main problems of UK commercial and investment banks is their level of debt against commercial property, which has fallen in value since the heights of the market back in 2006-07. The banks are finding it difficult to unravel some of those positions. The real estate investment trust structure may enable them to find a way through some of those problems.

[Stewart Hosie]

I very much welcome what the hon. Gentleman is saying about REITs. Some of his Front-Bench colleagues will remember that the same pleas were made to the then Labour Government when REITs were first introduced. All power to the hon. Gentleman’s elbow in persuading his Front Benchers to do what he suggests. Would there not be an advantage in getting small private companies, or even groups of housing associations, to benefit from REITs in respect of social for-profit housing as well?

[Mark Simmonds]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. That is not a new idea. Many years ago I was chairman of the housing committee on Wandsworth borough council. He may be surprised to hear that at that time—back in 1993-94—I proposed to the then Treasury Minister exactly what he has just suggested about housing associations. It was about creating the ability for them to raise capital, reinvest in the stock and so on. He is absolutely on the right lines. I hope that one day he and I can work together on trying to develop our thoughts on this matter.

The Government’s macro-economic policy is absolutely right. We must control public expenditure, and that control must be permanent, not temporary in order just to get us through this crisis. Then we must ensure that UK taxpayers’ money is being spent to the maximum benefit of those who are using public services. I support the Bill.