Armed Forces Bill (Second sitting)

Martin Docherty-Hughes Excerpts

Wednesday 31st March 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Before we begin, I remind Members that Hansard colleagues would be grateful if you could email your speaking notes to [e-mail]. As before, to indicate that you wish to speak, please raise your hand in front of the camera or use the “hand up” function in Zoom. To intervene or to make a point of order, please unmute and state that. Members being intervened on are reminded to repeat any part of their speech that may have been interrupted by the intervention.

Before we proceed, I will make a handful of short admin points. First, new clauses are being voted on in numerical order—so at the end, even if they are grouped. We agreed on day one that Members could intervene directly on the person speaking, or equally by putting their hand up. Spontaneity is important in the debate. We will go to the very end of all the new clauses and votes today. It may take longer or shorter than the allotted time. Once again, this is a brand new way of working for all of us, so please be patient.

New Clause 4

Armed Forces Representative Body

“(1) The Armed Forces Act 2006 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 333 insert the following new clause—

‘333A Armed Forces Representative Body

In accordance with HM Government’s obligations under Article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights, there is to be an Armed Forces Representative Body, existing outside the rank structure, but accountable to members and to Parliament in order to:

(a) represent personnel in matters of discipline: summary hearings, courts martial and other disciplinary hearings;

(b) aid personnel in the redress of individual grievances, and through the service complaints process;

(c) negotiate on behalf of personnel on matters relating to, but not limited to pay, terms and conditions and terms of enlistment;

(d) act as an advocate for general welfare of personnel during and immediately after their enlistment.

This Representative Body shall not have the ability to strike.’”—(Martin Docherty-Hughes.)

This new clause would oblige the UK Government to legislate for the creation of an Armed Forces Representative Body similar to the Police Federation.

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 19— Armed Forces Federation—

“(1) The Armed Forces Act 2006 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 333, insert the following new clauses—

‘333A  Armed Forces Federation

(1) There shall be an Armed Forces Federation for the United Kingdom for the purpose of representing members of the Armed Forces in the United Kingdom in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency, except for—

(a) questions of promotion affecting individuals, and

(b) (subject to subsection (2)) questions of discipline affecting individuals.

(2) The Armed Forces Federation may represent a member of the armed forces at any proceedings or on an appeal from any such proceedings.

(3) The Armed Forces Federation shall act through local and central representative bodies.

(4) This section applies to reservists of the Armed Forces as it applies to members of the Armed Forces, and references to the Armed Forces shall be construed accordingly.

333B Regulations for the Armed Forces Federation

‘(1) The Secretary of State may by regulations—

(a) prescribe the constitution and proceedings of the Armed Forces Federation, or

(b) authorise the Federation to make rules concerning such matters relating to their constitution and proceedings as may be specified in the regulations.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), regulations under this section may make provision—

(a) with respect to the membership of the Federation;

(b) with respect to the raising of funds by the Federation by voluntary subscription and the use and management of funds derived from such subscriptions;

(c) with respect to the manner in which representations may be made by committees or bodies of the Federation to officers of the Armed Forces and the Secretary of State; and

(d) for the payment by the Secretary of State of expenses incurred in connection with the Federation and for the use by the Federation of premises provided by local Armed Forces bodies for Armed Forces purposes.

(3) Regulations under this section may contain such supplementary and transitional provisions as appear to the Secretary of State to be appropriate, including provisions adapting references in any enactment (including this Act) to committees or other bodies of the Federation.

(4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this section shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

(5) This section applies to reservists of the Armed Forces as it applies to members of the Armed Forces.’”

This new clause would create a representative body for the Armed Forces, akin to the Police Federation.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Good morning to my colleagues in Committee. For a Bill that for some time tried to narrow in scope, the Armed Forces Bill has always had a way of getting us to debate some quite meaty and fundamental issues about who we want to be as a political state. If I say so myself, new clause 4, at least for the Opposition, brings together most of the threads that we have been talking about over the last month. Some on the Committee, including current and former members of the Defence Committee, will, I am sure, be bored stiff of my going on about an armed forces representative body, because I have been banging on about it before my private Member’s Bill in 2018 and since. I will try not to go over too many of the points that I made in that speech three years ago.

Since I became a member of the Defence Committee in 2017, I have lost count of the number of witnesses that we have had before us who have spoken about the difficulty in achieving institutional and organisational change in the Ministry of Defence, not just in personnel but in other areas such as procurement. The MOD has the fifth-largest budget in Whitehall, and if it were a city it would be bigger than Dundee or Brighton, so from my perspective, why on earth do we continue to create hideously complicated, bespoke personnel solutions when there exists a model of employer-employee relations that works for the rest of society? Is that not the very point of a whole-of-society approach to defence?

While I continue to be impressed by the knowledge, dedication and positivity of those who work in the military charity sector, I have no doubt that the multifarious nature of the sector is easily exploited by the Ministry of Defence to ensure that it keeps things exactly as it likes them. A proper representative body would be able to encompass the diversity of the armed forces family, and speak with one strong voice that Secretaries of State and the Government could not ignore when it was convenient.

Take the recent Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill. Although no one in the Opposition was likely to support it in principle, I understood the genuinely held beliefs of colleagues who wanted to see an end to repeated and vexatious prosecutions. The Ministry of Defence understood that also, and very astutely slipped in part 2 of the Bill, which put time limits on the ability of personnel to take action against the failings of the Ministry of Defence as an employer, cleverly packaging two unrelated issues together to ensure that the downside—the UK’s commitment to the international rule of law being watered down—was sweetened by giving more protection against actions by the very people that the Bill was supposed to protect.

I do not think that a proper representative body would have allowed that to pass, even if it supported the principles of the Bill, because it would have understood it to be the pig in the poke that it was. My final point is about the difference between the Scottish National party’s new clause 4 and our colleagues in the Labour party’s new clause 19 on an armed forces federation. I believe the principal difference between the two—I am happy to be corrected—is that new clause 19 seeks to create a federation that represents personnel in all matters except pay. From the conversations I have had with colleagues, I understand what provisions they would like to put in place to ensure that personnel are represented in pay negotiations, but I would like to hear more about why they think that the trade union-style model does not work in this specific instance.

In the week after the highest-ranking officer in the British Army for quite some time was convicted of a crime, the financial rewards for those in higher ranks come sharply into focus, with all the associated layers of class subtlety ingrained within the armed forces that this contains. We all know, even if we are afraid to say it, that there will not be many pongoes or matelots getting help to send their weans to private school, despite the fact that they undertake the most dangerous and demanding roles in the military.

[The Minister for Defence People and Veterans (Johnny Mercer)]

I just thought that I would factually correct a couple of issues. The stuff around the education allowance is cross-ranks, so playing to class divisions is just a load of nonsense, as was the rest about leveraging in pieces to another Bill. Does my hon. Friend understand the causal link between civilian claims and part 2 of the Bill, leading to part 1 and criminal prosecutions, or is this just some sort of diatribe against the whole thing?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

It seems as though the Minister has woken up rather grumpy this morning. I do not think we see the lower ranks being found guilty of manipulating their position to pay for their weans to go to private school.

[Johnny Mercer]

They have.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

We will move on.

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

The Minister is quite correct to say that a private school allowance or boarding school allowance is available across every rank, so we agree that that is factually correct. What is also factually correct is that it is almost exclusively utilised by commissioned officers rather than non-commissioned ranks.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding the Minister of his own policy.

[Johnny Mercer]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I am not giving way any further. The Minister has had enough time; he has had plenty of time. I am afraid the Minister will just need to sit down and mute himself.

Negotiating pay and conditions was essential to the betterment of working-class people in the shipbuilding and associated industries that many of my forebears served in. I cannot imagine why that would not be the case for those members of my family and for my constituents serving in the armed forces today.

As with all the other new clauses that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West and I have tabled, I do not expect new clause 4 to pass, but I ask Members of the governing party to reflect on the fact that this may be the way things have always been done or part of the charm of serving in the armed forces, but young people today will increasingly ask themselves why working in the NHS comes with a framework of obligations that people can expect from their employers and a host of independent advice that they can rely on, whereas public service in the armed forces does not. No amount of effusive praise that we give them in the House of Commons makes up for that.

One Armed Forces Day or Week each year does not make up for the 365-days-a-year protection that would be created by an organisation that allowed them all to speak with one strong voice. That is why I think an armed forces representative body gets to the very heart of everything we have been talking about on this Bill Committee—to the heart of what kind of country we want to live in, and how the social contract between the Government, the people and their armed forces should work.

[Stephen Morgan (Portsmouth South) (Lab)]

New clause 19 is designed to provide for the establishment of a federation for the armed forces. It owes much to the British Armed Forces Federation, which pioneered service representation. This issue has been close to the heart of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham, and I am loth to let an Armed Forces Bill go without raising it. It has been clear for some time that the armed forces need independent advice and representation. Witnesses that I have seen before this Committee have reinforced that point and we continue to hear shocking stories of abuse that takes place within units. We have also heard that continued delays discourage the use of the service complaints system, and of a concerning perception that someone’s career will be under threat if they complain persistently. Most members of the armed forces have also endured a real-terms pay cut for most of the last decade.

Given the renewed emphasis that Ministers appear to be placing on the value of people as assets to national defence, the time may be right to formalise representation and support for service personnel on issues such as welfare and pay. I want to stress that this federation would not be equivalent to a trade union for the armed forces. It would not conduct or condone any form of industrial action or insubordination within the armed forces. The federation would work with the Ministry of Defence to put in place a form of understanding that could deal with such issues. It would also recognise the importance of the chain of command. We can learn from positive forerunners such as the British Armed Forces Federation, which clearly reinforces the point that the chain of command is to be recognised, not overridden.

Although the proposal might be seen to be radical or dangerous by some, other nations, including the US and Australia, already have similar models embedded into existing military command structures. Given that Ministers in this Government have been so fond of looking to Australia for solutions, I hope that they will feel able to do so again. The nominally independent Armed Forces Pay Review Body and the service complaints ombudsman present a clear direction of travel towards independence.

Our armed forces give their lives for us. Ministers should seize this opportunity and also give them a voice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Johnny Mercer]

It is not the case; it is about a 45%-55% split.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

Will the Minister give way?

[Johnny Mercer]

I would be delighted to give way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I am concerned that the Minister is trying to rewrite the record, because all I said—I will remind myself of what I said—was that the most senior member of the armed forces, or of the Army at that point, was found guilty of misusing that fund. I never said anything about anybody not being able to access it.

[Johnny Mercer]

No, the hon. Gentleman said that matelots and pongoes, the lower ranks, do not get to use the fund, which is factually incorrect. I am sorry; I do not mean to be obtuse with Members, but I have come into this role to serve members of the armed forces and I will not stand idly by if people make things up. If someone is going to debate these issues and bring forward things that are not true, which I am afraid largely emanate from the Scottish nationalist party, it will be very difficult to engage. However, I will address the other points.

The new clauses seek to create through primary legislation a representative body for the armed forces that is similar in many respects to the Police Federation. New clause 19 proposes that details of how such a federation would operate would be set out in regulations. Of course the Government understand that Members from all parties in the House wish to support our armed forces and protect their interests; that is at the heart of what we do and I believe our actions show that. However, we are not persuaded that there is a requirement or indeed a groundswell of support for a federation along the lines that have been suggested. The interests of our armed forces personnel are already represented through a range of mechanisms, not least the chain of command.

On matters of pay, the Armed Forces Pay Review Body and the Senior Salaries Review Body provide annual recommendations on pay for the armed forces to the Prime Minister. Evidence is gathered from a number of sources, including the bodies commissioning their own independent analysis of pay comparability and taking written and oral evidence from the MOD and from service families federations, as well as spending a significant amount of time visiting military establishments within the UK and overseas.

Staying on the subject of pay, I should highlight that the X-Factor addition to basic military pay, which is currently at 14.5%, recognises the special conditions of military life, including limits on the ability of service personnel to negotiate on this issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Johnny Mercer]

Yes, it really concerns me. Forward Assist does a load of brilliant work in this area, and I have been clear on the record before that too many incidents of unacceptable behaviour go on. The female experience in the military is nowhere near where I want it to be. We are contributing to the Defence Sub-Committee inquiry on the female experience, and I will be the Minister answering that. That is all acknowledged. I think that is a separate matter from a representative body.

I hope that I have clearly explained the rationale for the Government’s approach and the provisions that do exist and that, following those assurances, the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire will agree to withdraw the new clause.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I am afraid that I will not withdraw the new clause but press it to a vote.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Carden]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

This new clause seeks to right an historical wrong. Twenty-one years ago, the ban on LGBT+ personnel serving in the armed forces was lifted. During the years of the ban, it inflicted staggering cruelty on those men and women who had stepped forward to serve their country. This is a hidden history of the British military, so let me reveal some of the sorry tale.

Between the mid-1950s and 1996, men and women—predominantly men—of our armed forces who were thought to be gay were arrested, searched and questioned by officers trained for wartime interrogation. In many cases, this went on for days before they were charged, often without legal counsel or support. On many occasions, arrest was based on little evidence. It has emerged that many heterosexual personnel were falsely accused by service police officers, losing careers and, in some cases, homes and families. After harrowing investigations, these men and women were led away to military hospitals where they were subjected to degrading and shameful medical inspections, conducted in accordance with confidential Defence Council Instructions, held by every unit of the armed forces.

At court martial, in the moments before those convicted were sent down, operational medals and good conduct badges were ripped from their uniforms. They typically served six months in prison for the military criminal offence of being homosexual. It is staggering that this continued until 1996, and that administrative dismissal of LGBT+ personnel continued for a further four years, until January 2000.

As these members of our armed forces walked from prison, they were dismissed in disgrace, with criminal records as sex offenders, which from 1967 had no civilian equivalent. As they left through the main gate, they were commonly given letters instructing them to never again use their military ranks or wear items of uniform, for example in remembrance at the Cenotaph. With dignity, they continued to obey those letters. Their names were erased from the retired lists of the Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force as though they had never existed. These once-proud members of our military were cast out of the armed forces family and outed to their own family and friends. They lost their homes and their financial stability. Their service record cards had the top corner clipped and were marked in red pen with the annotation, “Dismissed in disgrace”, causing many a lifetime of employment issues.

In the past, in their moments of need, these personnel were shunned by military charities. I am pleased that has now changed. However, there has been no such remedy or reckoning from our Government or the Ministry of Defence. The Committee heard at first hand, from the charity Fighting with Pride, accounts of how those affected live today amidst the ashes of their former service careers. Our LGBT veterans are scattered across the United Kingdom, often away from military communities, living lives in stark contrast to those hoped for when they joined the forces. In the 21 years since the ban was lifted, nothing has been done to support those LGBT+ veterans. The impact endures amidst loneliness, isolation, shame and anger. As Canada, Germany, the United States and other nations prepare, assess and make reparations, putting right this shameful wrong is long overdue for the United Kingdom, which persisted with the ban for longer and implemented it more zealously than many others.

The Minister, I know, has offered his apology, for which many are grateful, and he and I have talked about this issue, but does he not agree that this community of veterans, who were treated with unique cruelty, deserve an apology on behalf of the nation from the Prime Minister in Parliament? They must be supported on the pathway to royal pardons, restored to the retired list and have their medals returned. Prohibitions on their use of rank and wearing of berets at the Cenotaph must be revoked. They need resettlement support, which we offer to all other members of our armed forces, and they must be fairly compensated and have their pensions reviewed in recognition of their service and the hardships they faced, then and now.

Until that is done, this will remain a matter of national disgrace, and it will stand in the way of this Government’s stated wish to be a global exemplar for both LGBT+ and veterans’ communities. This amendment places a duty on the Ministry of Defence to find our LGBT+ veterans, find out how they have fared and make recommendations to Parliament about what must be done to right this wrong. Remedy must not take years, and the Government will need to work closely with community leaders.

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on tabling this new clause; if he does press it to a vote, both of us on the SNP Benches will support it in its entirety.

In setting out the premise for the hon. Gentleman’s proposition, it is clear why there should be consensus on the many issues he has raised and that we should take this as an opportunity to move forward. Both the Opposition and the Government should fully support ensuring that the lived experience of the LGBT community, especially those who have been forced out of the armed forces, is reflected in our deliberations and seek to remedy as best as possible their lived experience at this time—especially if that requires investigations into their financial position, access to pensions or the ability, on Remembrance Sunday, to march with their comrades, wearing the badges that should never have been taken away from them. That, at least, is basic; the other issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised will require serious investigation and deliberation by the Government.

[Johnny Mercer]

Again, I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton for raising this issue and for the manner in which he has raised it. I have a series of things to read out about what we are doing, and I am sure he is aware of that, but I want to answer some of his points in turn.

I am clear, and so are the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, that the experiences of those individuals that the hon. Gentleman mentions were totally unacceptable. The military got it wrong. The military are now better for recruiting from the whole of society, and I am very clear on that. I know people will be watching this today, and I will receive messages disagreeing with that—“You are saying that the military wasn’t any good because they discriminated against homosexuals.” The reality is that the wider the pool we pick from, when it comes to diversity, sexuality and things like that, the better and more professional our military are in reflecting the society from which they are drawn. I make no apology for that.