Devolution and the Union

Michael McCann Excerpts

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Raab]

The hon. Gentleman—I was on the cusp of saying “My hon. Friend”—has made his point so powerfully that we are almost there.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raab]

I am going to make some progress before I give way again. I have been very generous so far.

We must also consider points south of the border, where many people bristle over the fact that Scottish public services already receive over £2,000 more investment per person each year than some parts of England. That investment does not just subsidise free prescriptions and university tuition; in proportion to its population, Scotland has twice as many nurses and ambulance staff as England, and 43% more police officers. However, this is not just a southern gripe. Scotland’s public spending per person on housing and community, for example, is twice as high as that of the midlands, Yorkshire or Humber and the north west, and by comparison with Scotland, Wales gets a poor deal too. I am sure that Members representing Welsh seats will want to make that point for themselves.

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[Mr Reid]

I certainly agree that a constitutional convention is a good idea, but it must not hold up the present process of devolving further powers to the Scottish Parliament. The present Smith commission process must go forward, but a constitutional convention to look at the whole UK is certainly a good idea.

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman made the point that we must consider Scottish MPs voting on issues such as the English health service, but does he not see the contradiction in relation to Barnett? Any increases to the English health service and any increases in finances mean that there is a consequential effect through Barnett to Scotland, so those issues have to be analysed as well.

[Mr Reid]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. Legislation does not of itself lead to more spending. We allocate spending when we pass the estimates every year. Although legislation may mean that carrying out certain functions costs more money, the decisions on spending are made only when we pass the estimates. Certainly when we pass the estimates for the English health service, there is a knock-on effect for Scotland. It is perfectly in order for Members of Parliament representing constituencies outside England to vote on those issues, but legislation purely for the English health service could be left to the English representatives. But the only way that that can happen in practice is if we set up a federal United Kingdom with an English Parliament. If Members cannot vote on some issues in this Parliament, it will lead to a situation in which a Government cannot get their policies through.

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[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and the Backbench Business Committee for sponsoring this important debate—the second on devolution in this Chamber since the Scottish referendum in September—although I regret to tell him that I will not be supporting his motion, for the reasons that I will set out.

In that first debate, the House paid tribute to the campaigners and the energising effect that the referendum had had on Scottish democracy, with record turnouts, the public re-engaged in politics, and a decision made about our country’s constitutional future. I hope that we can focus in this debate on why the enduring strength of devolution in the UK won the argument, and on how we can make radical changes to our democracy across the UK which can satisfy people who voted on either side of the referendum in September, as well as the millions more across these islands who want a more decentralised, more democratic and modernised polity in the UK.

Let us be clear about what the current and future parties of Government at UK level put to the people of Scotland in September: increased financial powers to the Scottish Parliament; the retention of the funding model that involves fiscal pooling and adjusting changes in the allocation of resources through the Barnett formula; and the effective entrenchment of the devolution settlement. That promise was not lightly made, and it should be unbreakable and unconditional in its nature, with draft legislation by the end of January and an Act in place early in the next Parliament. That promise was endorsed by the people of Scotland in the referendum, and it requires commitments from all parties in this House. To those who support Scotland staying within the United Kingdom, it means having arrangements for the allocation of shared resources that are not to Scotland’s detriment. To those who still support Scotland leaving the UK, it means abandoning the call to end fiscal sharing expressed by some Members in the name of full fiscal autonomy. That is not compatible with the governance of a modern multinational state, would leave Scotland exposed to wildly fluctuating global oil prices and would mean a £5 billion deficit shortfall for Scotland, according to work done by Fiscal Affairs Scotland on the basis of Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts.

Federal states such as Germany, Canada and the USA all have fiscal sharing; Quebec is a net beneficiary from fiscal transfers from the federal Government in Ottawa, and even in Spain there is not complete fiscal autonomy. So, there is not a major nation state on Earth that is governed in the way the Scottish nationalists have proposed to the Smith commission. If other parties must make compromises, the SNP must accept that it must, too, so I was somewhat perplexed by the position taken by the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) in his speech: he said he accepted the Smith commission process but would not commit to accepting any of its conclusions or outcomes. We should aspire to offer more to people in this debate and across this country than the politics of grievance offered by nationalists of any variety or by the United Kingdom Independence party.

The reason our current resource allocation arrangements have prevailed from the 1890s onwards is a good one: Scotland has one thirteenth of the UK population but one third of the land mass and more than 80% of the UK’s coastline, it contains some of the most remote rural communities in the UK, and it is more expensive to provide access to health and education there on the same basis as in more densely populated parts of the UK. So if we accept that we should have a common statehood—

[Mr McCann]

Would my hon. Friend not wish to put into that equation systems such as Highlands & Islands Airports Ltd, which provides lifeline services to communities in the highlands? Any attempt to run a privatised or commercial service to those islands simply would not work, which is why we need those additional funds in Scotland, in order to be able to fund lifeline services to those island communities, such as those represented by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil).

[Mr Bain]

Absolutely; what my hon. Friend is saying, as I am arguing, is that if we want a common statehood, we must have the right allocation of resources. That means that we can have devolved management of the health, policing, universities and schools services, but we have the same rights, as citizens, to the most important elements of education, free health care, benefits, tax credits and a state pension. Any constitutional settlement for the future of the United Kingdom should not weaken the rights of citizens to those common standards, because to do so would weaken the case for the United Kingdom for future generations.

Similarly, differentiating the voting rights of Members of this House is an issue that could not be definitively resolved by minds as great as Gladstone, Disraeli and Lloyd George in respect of the Irish question in the past two centuries. It may even escape the Leader of the House, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), notwithstanding his grasp of history, and I suspect a neat solution may elude those Members seeking one this afternoon. In truth, few Bills and few motions before this House do not have effects on expenditure in Scotland or other interests. The recent Modern Slavery Bill started life as an England and Wales-only measure but now contains amendments applying to companies based in Scotland, too. Decisions on taxation, even potentially partially devolved taxes, affect the deficit, public borrowing and, ultimately, interest rates. It would be irresponsible for Members from Scottish constituencies not to have a say on such issues in this House.

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[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Like the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I enjoy injecting a bit of humour into debates in this place. We have much to celebrate about the constitutional decision made by the Scottish people, but I also remember the acrimony of the debate. I remember being abused every single day of the campaign by people who did not support my view. I know that families are divided and friendships have been broken and we must remember that that happens in constitutional debates. Frankly, the levels of intimidation were unprecedented and that is a high bar for me, given that I was involved in the challenges with the Militant and Trotskyite tendencies in the 1980s—as a child, of course.

Despite the SNP’s yes campaign having every conceivable advantage, including the serendipity of two SNP supporters winning the Euromillions—you are so lucky, guys, I have to say—it was still defeated by the Scottish people who rejected the idea of separation because they believed in their vast numbers that a stable system of governance, including Barnett, enables us to absorb difficult economic times more easily than we would if we were component parts within a divided United Kingdom. I accept that Barnett was a formula set up for the short term, but we must also recognise that it has led to long-term stability in the distribution of resources across the United Kingdom. That is where I would differ from the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who moved the motion. The suggestion that we tamper with individual items within the constitutional settlement is a bad one and it misunderstands the debate we have just come through in Scotland. The SNP should never be underestimated as opponents and we should never underestimate their ability to be deceitful and mendacious in any campaign that they run.

We can take that from the contribution made by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) just a few moments ago, when he spoke about the Republic of Ireland. During the referendum debate, he did not tell people in Scotland that it costs €150 to go to accident and emergency in the Republic of Ireland or that it costs €50 to go to see a GP. Wages were slashed by 20% in the Republic of Ireland during the economic crash and so were pensions. Colleagues of mine, such as the Transport Minister for the Labour party in the Republic of Ireland, Alan Kelly, have explained to me the pain that their country had to go through in those difficult economic times. Of course, there was no mention of that in any of the contributions made by the SNP during the constitutional campaign in Scotland.

I was also upset when the hon. Member for Esher and Walton suggested that Scotland is somehow subsidised. I agree with Scottish National party Members on that point—this is possibly the only time I will agree with them—because Scotland makes its contribution to the Union. The difference as regards the Barnett formula is that the income distribution across Scotland is even. Therefore, we do not have to suffer the peaks and troughs when, for example, the price of oil plummets, as it has done since the referendum debate. It was over $100 a barrel then and now it is $80 a barrel—something that the SNP did not want to put into any of the arithmetical calculations that they offered to the Scottish people.

I believe in the devolution of power. I believe in the vow that was made by the leaders of the three main parties. I believe in the United Kingdom and I believe in the arguments in favour of a United Kingdom that we set out to the Scottish people just two months ago. We need a full assessment of the constitutional settlement within the United Kingdom. We need a constitutional convention, and that is why I disagree with the authors and movers of the motion and why I will vote against it later this afternoon.