Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill

Mike Amesbury Excerpts

Wednesday 14th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Barclay]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that. Understandably, much of the debate today has focused on the EU element of the Bill, but he is quite right to recognise that the reciprocal element extends beyond the EU and particularly to Crown dependencies, overseas territories and countries such as Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere. I am very happy to have those discussions with him.

My opposite number, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston, raised a number of points, one of which was the impact on people with long-term conditions. I agree that, without reciprocal healthcare, people with long-term conditions, including those who need dialysis, may find it harder to travel, which is the very essence of why the Bill is necessary, so that we can implement a reciprocal arrangement with the EU or, failing that, with individual member states to support the travel arrangements of those with long-term conditions.

The hon. Gentleman also questioned the £66 million figure that I referenced in my speech, and I am happy to point out that that was in relation to the 2016-17 value of claims made by the UK to EU member states. He also asked about cost recovery more generally and, since 2015, we have increased identified income for the NHS under reciprocal arrangements by 40%, and directly charged income has increased by 86% over the same period. I mentioned the increased focus on that to my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith), which I hope gives a signal of intent as to the direction of travel on cost recovery.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston also mentioned the role of NHS Improvement, and I am happy to clarify that it is now working with more than 50 NHS trusts to improve their practices further, with a bespoke improvement team in place to provide on-the-ground support and challenge in identifying and sharing best practice.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned an important point, and one that we will probably go into in more detail in Committee, on data. Again, the policy intent is continuity, rather than a change in our approach to data. Clause 4 expressly contains a safeguard for personal data, which can be processed only where necessary for limited purposes or funding arrangements. That covers, for example, where someone is injured while abroad, where personal data of a medical nature often needs to be shared to allow treatment to take place. At the same time, there are safeguards in the Bill, which I am sure we will explore.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet expressed concern about cherry-picking, and I recognise his point. That is why we are looking for the reciprocal arrangements to continue, although even in the event of no deal and no bilateral deal, local arrangements often apply for healthcare, such as on the basis of long-term residency or previous employment. Those would be local factors, but obviously the policy intent is to have an arrangement with countries across the EU.

The hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Martyn Day) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) spoke about the work of the devolved Assemblies and how we liaise with them. Indeed, I spoke with my Welsh counterpart just yesterday. In the other place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health has been working closely with the devolved Assemblies, as have colleagues and officials in our Department. How we work with the devolved Assemblies is a pertinent point, and we are keen to continue that active dialogue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Sir Robert Syms) correctly identified the importance of the EHIC card and of inward tourism to the UK. The point about continuity was reinforced by my hon. Friends the Members for Chichester (Gillian Keegan) and for Chelmsford (Vicky Ford) in their thoughtful contributions. It was also echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Eddie Hughes) when he highlighted the importance of taking a practical approach to how these arrangements apply.

My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) raised a number of detailed points, and I am happy to have continued dialogue with her on them, although I hope she will draw some comfort from recent quotes and legislative developments in a number of EU27 states. For example, the French Minister for European Affairs said, “France will do as much for British citizens in France as the British authorities do for our citizens.” France has legislation under way. The Spanish Prime Minister said, “I appreciate, and thank very much, Prime Minister May’s commitment to safeguarding those rights. We will do the same with the 300,000 Britons who are in Spain.”

Again, I hope the fact that we actually pay out more to the EU than we currently receive, and the fact that both nations benefit from a reciprocal arrangement, gives an idea of the starting point of the discussions. Like my hon. Friend, I would welcome it if that were done across the EU27 as a whole.

My hon. Friend also raised the issue of dispute resolution, and the current arrangements between the UK and other member states require states to resolve differences, in the first instance, between themselves. That is the existing position that applies, but clearly it would be a matter for negotiation as to how a future UK-EU agreement might be governed. That is a cross-cutting issue; it is not one pertaining solely to this Bill.

It is clearly in the interests of the British public to ensure reciprocal healthcare, arrangements, similar to those currently in place, continue when we leave the EU, whether that happens through an agreement with the EU itself, as we very much want, or through individual arrangements with EU member states.

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

Just for clarification, is the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice still a red line in the sand?

[Stephen Barclay]

The issue in terms of the ECJ will be dealt with in other areas of the withdrawal agreement discussions. In the event of a deal, and in the event of no deal, it will be governed by the bilateral arrangements.

I commend this Second Reading to the House, and I look forward to working with colleagues on both sides of the House in Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.