Chief Constable of Avon and Somerset Police Force

Debate between Mike Penning and Ian Liddell-Grainger

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing, Fire, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. At this stage of a speech I normally say, “I thank my hon. Friend for bringing the debate to the Chamber”. Although it is right and proper that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell-Grainger) has done that today, I am enormously restricted in what I can say, as he mentioned. He made a far-ranging speech but I am here, really, to talk about the chief constable of Avon and Somerset police force. I will touch, however, on some of my hon. Friend’s points.

Police and crime commissioners—PCCs—are elected, whether on a 1% or a 100% turnout. The public have the right to decide whether to vote for them, vote for someone else, or not vote at all. Naturally, in the early days people did not know what they were voting for, but the turnout has since gone up substantially, in particular when the elections have been alongside local government elections. The next PCC election should be concurrent with a general election—but nothing is perfect in this place, so we do not really know, what with the events taking place around us as we speak. I hope that this Parliament stays for the full term; the PCC election turnout will then be completely different.

What we have done is to place powers—administrative not operational—with an elected person, who is responsible for their community, and it is for them to decide how much they spend. The public can then see the exact details. The process is not opaque; it is very open. That openness is the reason my hon. Friend has been able to comment in the way he has about how many staff there are and how much is being spent.

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that there is an ongoing inquiry. There is a process in place for that, and it is not for a Policing Minister to interfere in or influence that in any way. The allegations are serious and it is important that they are investigated fully.

I saw some of the commentary about my hon. Friend’s previous comments on the Floor of the House. This place has privilege, and it is for my hon. Friend to decide the language he uses and what he says in his speeches. In that way, we have the freedom to represent our constituents in the way we feel we should.

The ongoing investigation means that there is uncertainty and I fully accept my hon. Friend’s concerns. I also fully accept that, as in the other 43 forces that I am responsible for, the boys and girls on the beat in his area do a fantastic job, day in, day out. It is, as he alluded to in his comments, deeply unsettling that the force has had so many chief constables over a short period of time, but sometimes there are good reasons for that. I will not go into that: it is very much for the PCC and the local community. However, I know what it is like. My hon. Friend and I have both served in Her Majesty’s armed forces. If a soldier does not know who their colonel is from one day to the next, it is very difficult to get that feeling of unity running through the system.

My hon. Friend also commented on the number of people applying for chief constable jobs, and the situation is difficult. South Yorkshire is going through a difficult time and is also advertising for a new chief constable. It is an enormously onerous task to be chief constable of a force. In many parts of the country, the political and management skills are as important as the understanding of day-to-day policing, because of how they have to deal with things—I would not have wanted to take on that task. We have opened the job up, however. There are people for and against the direct entry scheme, but it will open up opportunities for people to come through the ranks in so many parts of the police force. The old saying when we were in the Army was, “Dead man’s shoes”, but that cannot happen now. We need to ensure that people can aspire to and dream of being chief constables, if that is what they want to do. They may want to go into other specialist areas, but it is crucial that we open things up.

The Policing and Crime Bill has passed through this House and will fairly soon have its Second Reading in the other place. It gives powers to PCCs to put forward to the Home Secretary a business plan to take on the administration of the fire service. I have to declare an interest: I wrote a paper some 30 years ago saying that the emergency services must work more closely together and there is no argument about that. The debate we had in Committee was whether it should be a councillor seconded on to a committee and paid a bit of extra money or someone directly elected to do that role. I freely admit that one size will not fit all. If an agreement cannot be reached locally and a PCC or a metro mayor wants to put forward a business plan to the Home Secretary and me—I am the first ever Minister to have responsibility for policing and fire—we would look at that. One size truly will not fit all.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

May I use the Avon and Somerset force area as an example for clarification? Our fire brigade, as the Minister is well aware, comes under Devon and Somerset fire service. We have an elected mayor in Bristol. The rest of Somerset is not covered. If the metropolitan mayor of Bristol put forward a case to take over the fire brigade, given that we are slightly skewed, that has merit because of devolution. The Minister is well aware of how we are looking at joining things closer together with devolution in Somerset and Devon, but that does not include Bristol or what we call north Somerset, which covers the constituencies of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), my hon. Friends the Members for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose) and for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg), and a bit of Bristol. How would that devolution work? That is of some interest, I think.

[Mike Penning]

I said a moment ago that one size does not fit all, and my hon. Friend raises a classic example of that. In certain parts of the country, it is a very simple procedure: there is a fire authority and a police authority—now the PCC—and they can mesh very closely. If that was the situation across the country, I would have a very simple job in looking at all the business plans and coming to some conclusions, but that of course is not the case. Amalgamations of fire services were taking place right up until the responsibility was transferred from the Department for Communities and Local Government into my portfolio.

It is best not to use Avon and Somerset as the only example. Looking at some of the other models that are being talked about—I freely admit that I do not have the business plans on my desk—chief fire officers from some parts of the country have approached me and said, “Our fire brigade is too small. We do not want to be regionalised. We have seen some of the problems that have occurred with the ambulance service being regionalised, but we would be a better administrative functional body if we were a larger fire service. Does that prevent us from being amalgamated? What if a metro mayor takes over?” There is a little feeling of, “If we grow in size, perhaps that will prevent us being amalgamated with the police.”

Other areas are looking at whether they can take over the emergency ambulance service, as well as fire and the police. The ambulance service is commissioned by clinical commissioning groups; the money does not come directly from central Government. I have other areas—Merseyside is probably one of the obvious examples when we look at the introduction of metro mayors—where the boundary goes slightly into another area. For instance, the Merseyside boundary goes into Cheshire. What we have said all along is that that is not a game-stopper and that we would work across Government to come to sensible conclusions about the best way to deliver services and emergency services where they are needed.

There is no simple answer to my hon. Friend’s points. During consideration of the Bill, we said that it is vital not to look at things in terms of silos or buildings. Using the analogy of a church, it is about a group of people coming together, and not necessarily a building. We always look at churches as buildings. The London fire service looks at fire stations and headquarters, and it is similar with the police service. I have been pushing hard, as we move from a difficult austerity situation, for us to continue to look at how we spend on capital assets. The police services and fire services around the country have extensive assets, and the situation in Avon and Somerset is no different. I have been saying, “If we are going to have a different kind of policing, why could the police station for that community not be based in the local fire station?” It is difficult to put a fire appliance inside a police station, because a 10-tonne truck does not fit so well in the foyer, but it is very easy to do it the other way around and put a police car in a fire station. We have seen that in Hampshire and Lincolnshire and other parts of the country.

That was a very long answer to a simple intervention, but in short we rule nothing out and we have an open mind. We would prefer to have things agreed locally under devolution and localism, but we are pragmatic enough to realise within the Department that that will not happen every time, so sometimes difficult decisions will have to be made by the Home Secretary with some advice from me.

On the specific points to do with the future and the chief constable’s investigations, that is frankly not within my remit, and rightly so. We do not live in that sort of society, thank goodness. The PCC was duly elected. Should my hon. Friend feel that the PCC is not doing her job correctly and has brought the force into disrepute, there are mechanisms in place. PCCs are not exempt from disciplinary action. That mechanism clearly has not been triggered yet, and whether it is has nothing to do with me.

Even though I am not skilful enough to have used some of the language and links to the bakery industry that my hon. Friend used, one thing that is important to me as a parliamentarian is that colleagues from across the House have confidence that they can express their concerns on behalf of the public without the worry that they will lose privilege. Parliamentary privilege is important. So many times in the House, I have heard people say, “If I was not a Member of Parliament and I was not in this Chamber, I would not be allowed to say that, even though I passionately believe it is true, mostly because I could not prove it in law or in fact.” That principle keeps this democracy sound.

I congratulate my hon. Friend and encourage him to continue expressing his concerns. There is a process in place. It is clearly not for the Minister for Policing, Fire, Criminal Justice and Victims to interfere in that, but I stress that it would be useful and sensible—it might be a difficult meeting—for my hon. Friend to take up the PCC’s offer to meet with her and the chief constable, because at the end of the day they are responsible for wellbeing in the constituency.

Question put and agreed to.