Finance Bill

Nadine Dorries Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I must confess that I support the principle behind the clause but share many of the concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) about its practicality. However, I accept that there is an overriding need to reduce the vast fiscal deficit, and all of us who feel that way must look at the provisions, whether in the Budget or elsewhere, and support what is being done to try to get the deficit down. Apart from everything else, it is a moral case: we cannot pass these huge debts on to the next generation. Even now, in an era that the Opposition have identified as one of austerity and savage cuts, the Government are borrowing £1 in every £5 they spend.

There is an absolute crisis in the welfare state and we must wean ourselves off this huge amount of public expenditure at the earliest opportunity. One of the most important areas to look at is that of universal benefits, particularly universal middle-class benefits, which must be up for consideration. Housing benefit, which has been discussed, and child benefit are certainly important. I believe that wealthy pensioners should not get free TV licences, bus passes or winter fuel allowances, although I accept the political difficulty of that, given the promises made just before the general election.

The Minister is an intelligent man and must realise that the practicalities of the system will make it an absolute nightmare. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun has made quite clear how she feels about it, but let us for once in politics be wise before the event, rather than after it.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend talks about the practicalities of the system, but is he aware that there is no practical mechanism by which wealthy parents can opt out of the system if they do not want to claim child benefit?

[Mark Field]

There will be by next January, because they will not qualify for it.

The broader issue is that there is a risk that the proposal is potentially a penalty on aspiration for those who earn roughly between £50,000 and £60,000 a year. It is a disincentive for families with one parent who stays at home to look after children. What of the broader tax incentives? One of the reasons I am so keen on reducing the higher rate of tax to 45% is that I think there is a mass incentive in having lower rates of tax, yet the concern for those earning between £50,000 and £60,000 who have three children is that they will be paying a marginal rate, often of over 60%, which does not seem to be a sensible way forward. Those are the theoretical issues.

There are a number of major practical issues that the Minister will have to look at. This system will be incredibly difficult to implement. The reality is that many people now earn consulting income and do not know nine months into a year, let alone at the beginning, whether they will earn between £50,000 and £60,000. We will see some strange disincentives that will encourage people to arrange for invoices to go out just after the financial year, so that one year they earn £49,000 and the next they earn £80,000 or £90,000. It strikes me that much of this will rely on IT systems, which have been a reputational nightmare for both HMRC and the Treasury. I think that this system will be very tough to administer. As has been mentioned, the implementation will be in January, rather than, as normal, at the beginning of the tax year, which will make for additional difficulty.

I want this to work. I think that all of us who want to see the deficit reduced want to see Budget measures working well for the Treasury and HMRC. My biggest concern is that we will end up returning to the House, perhaps in January or slightly later next year, at the beginning of the next tax year, recognising a system that is going to be discredited, not least because huge amounts of money will be uncollected and, if the schemes goes ahead, because large amounts will have to be repaid.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Goodman]

Normally, one begins a speech by saying what a pleasure it is to speak, but it is not a pleasure to speak in this debate; it is a great disappointment. This is the third time that I have spoken about the problem with the child benefit proposals in the Budget that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced.

The first time I spoke I thought that there were four arguments against the Government’s proposals; I now discover that there are 14. First, there is the impact on distribution and horizontal equity, the point well expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). The Institute for Fiscal Studies’ independent analysis of the impact of changes made by the Budget looked at households with and without children, and households with children are losing most. From all the changes in the current year, households with children will lose 1.3% of their annual net income compared with 0.5% for those without children.

On the changes implemented so far, the loss is 3.5% for households with children and 2.1% only for working-age households without children. By 2014 there will still be inequity between households with children and households without. By then, even assuming that universal credit is as good as the Government say it will be, which I doubt, households with children will have lost 3.7% of their income—£1,411 on average—whereas those without children will have lost 2%, or £646 a year. How it can be fair to take more money from families with children than from those without, I do not know.

There is clearly also unfairness among those people who are just above and just below the thresholds, and among families in which one person earns £50,000 and those in which two people earn £40,000. We have discussed all that before.

New problems have emerged since we debated the issue. There is the possibility of people planning their tax to avoid the charge; administrative problems have been referred to; and we have repeatedly asked the Minister how he will preserve independent taxation, given the implications for it. That point has been raised to a significant extent by the professions; the Chartered Institute of Taxation and the Office of Tax Simplification are very concerned about the issue.

One thing that is not at all clear is how Ministers intend to implement the measure, given that, as far as I can see—the Minister can correct me if he wants—in schedule 1 there is no obligation on people to share information about their incomes, so it will be extremely difficult for people to know what is going on. The Minister is calm about that, but given that families’ incomes and circumstances change over time, the measure is highly likely to lead to a large number of practical difficulties.

Another thing that is odd from a Government who claim to be in favour of the family is that they are introducing a charge that is, in effect, a couple penalty. At one stroke of a pen, they have achieved both a penalty for couples and the destruction of the independent taxation of women. It is a masterstroke of its kind.

[Nadine Dorries]

Does the hon. Lady agree that many couples with no children object hugely to their taxation going towards families who decide to have large numbers of children? The proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field)—that the cap should be at two or three children—strikes a fair and moral balance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nadine Dorries]

To go back to the point made by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), there are more financially astute means of dealing with child poverty and with large numbers of children than a universal benefit in the form of child benefit.

[Mr Jackson]

My hon. Friend makes an important and astute point, which is that the Rolls-Royce minds at the Treasury, of whom the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) was one, can surely find alternative methods to collect income. We know that the deficit is a problem that the Government have to grapple with, mainly because of the splurge of public expenditure under the last Government and the debt millstone that they left. We must look at all the alternatives, including putting a cap on the number of children, such as two or three. Incidentally, that policy is hugely popular with the public, according to polls taken in the past few weeks.

The higher income child benefit charge fails on at least two bases. First, it is transparently unfair, because it treats families on lower incomes more harshly than those on higher incomes, merely because of the way in which the incomes come to them. Secondly, in the distinctions that it makes, it discriminates between different types of families in a way that is profoundly unenlightened and completely unacceptable. I urge Treasury Ministers to think carefully about the alternatives. This is a potential disaster in the making. It is unfair. I ask them to think again.