Antarctic Bill

Debate between Neil Carmichael and David Nuttall

Friday 18th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful intervention, but the idea is to ensure that people behave responsibly, and we will be checking that. Clause 5 contains various punitive measures if people do not conduct themselves in an appropriate way. That is likely to be a more effective measure of the outcome of the Bill. Furthermore, the Bill sets out a large number of measurement structures, and these are well addressed in the annexes, to which our attention has already been drawn, so I do not believe that new clause 1 is necessary.

[Mr Nuttall]

I listened carefully to what my hon. Friend said. Does he not accept that, as I said in my remarks, the issue is not just about pounds, shillings and pence? It is also about ensuring the Bill’s effectiveness. Does he not agree that it would be sensible to review the Bill to see whether it is as effective as both he and I would like it to be?

[Neil Carmichael]

The real demonstration of the effectiveness of the Bill when it is enacted will be when other nation states implement similar legislation. It was an implicit part of the original treaty that we should all enact legislative measures to ensure that the measures agreed in the treaty are enforced through domestic law. The real success of the Bill is the leadership role that it demonstrates. Britain is taking a leadership role and saying to other nation states, “We want you to do the same.” When they start doing the same, that will be the real measure of success.

[Mr Nuttall]

On that point, is my hon. Friend able to update the House on how many of the other contracting parties have ratified the treaty?

[Neil Carmichael]

Indeed. Seven parties have already done so, which is exceptionally good news. They include countries as diverse as Peru and the Netherlands, so we are making good progress. Our action is the right one to ensure that we are not just building on, but underlining our leadership role. That is why I believe new clause 1 is not necessary, although I accept the sentiment. It is right to make sure that the Bill is scrutinised and tested in the future.

I shall turn my attention now to amendment 2 and the future of clause 5. One of the reasons why I mentioned my trip to Antarctica through the British Antarctic Survey is that while I was there and in preparation for the journey, I noted just how difficult the processes are to cover all the risks that one could encounter. That is why clause 5 is necessary. We have to insist, through legislation, that preparations are properly made and that people understand the risks involved in visiting Antarctica. By insisting that clause 5 remains in place, we are effectively saying, “Look, this is a matter of some importance. The necessary legislation is in place, and if you don’t do what is required of you, measures will be taken against you.”

Antarctic Bill

Debate between Neil Carmichael and David Nuttall

Friday 18th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael]

I am grateful for the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), which gives me the opportunity to underline the fact that there is a treaty, that various nation states have signed it and that they have an interest in new clause 1. New clause 1 is unlikely to be discussed in the United Nations. I am fairly confident of saying that without contradiction, but I take into account, of course, your observation, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Mr Nuttall]

Surely the point is that all the contracting parties will have an interest in ensuring that the treaty works properly?

[Neil Carmichael]

That is absolutely right. One interesting point about new clause 1—this is one reason why we should not support it—is that more and more nation states are showing an interest in Antarctica. That brings pressure in respect of challenges to the Antarctica environment as well as numbers. Some of the new arrivals are not as interested as we are in making sure that the area is properly protected and that responsible actions are taken. By passing this legislation, we apply international pressure, ensuring that other nation states that need to do the same get on with the process and that the international focus on what is important for Antarctica—the protection of the continent—continually remains a top priority.

Amendment 1 deals with historic sites and monuments. It is an interesting amendment and it is right to discuss it because it provides an opportunity to make a very important point. The point is that the provisions relate to who is doing something, not to where the action is being taken. If we wanted to take action to preserve the hut of Captain Robert Scott and his colleagues, the fact that it is in what might be described as the New Zealand slice of Antarctica would not prevent us from doing so. As we would be going there to preserve the hut, British law would apply to our efforts to ensure that it was looked after properly.

While I have a huge amount of sympathy with the thrust of amendment 1, and while I think that the hon. Member for Bury North is absolutely right to remind us that we need to have the capacity to deal with all monuments and sites of historical interest, it is with the British people, and those connected with Britain, that clause 15 deals, and they are more than welcome to pursue such priorities throughout the continent of Antarctica. I therefore do not think that the amendment is necessary, although I do think that it has given us a useful opportunity to reinforce the point that everyone in our jurisdiction would be covered by the clause. Indeed, as the Bill’s promoter, I have welcomed the opportunity to comment on all three of what I consider useful amendments—not because I think that they should be included in the Bill, but because the House has been able to discuss them all properly and make some important points.

Let me summarise those points. With regard to the cost-benefit analysis proposed in new clause 1, the Bill is financially neutral. I do not think we should add any extra burden of bureaucracy, but I do think we should make it clear that the real test is co-operation between all interested nation states in ensuring that the continent is properly protected, and ensuring that the measures on which we continue to work are properly supported and implemented by all of them. That is the test that I shall continue to press for beyond the passage of this Bill, because I believe it is critical.

The main issue in relation to amendment 2, which proposes the removal of clause 5, is that we are building on existing measures—and quite right too. It is good that the House has had an opportunity to test the validity of the clause, because it is important. It will ensure not only that there is a line of responsibility for operators, visitors, tourists and so on, but that they must have contingency plans. In the absence of those two measures, such people would make themselves vulnerable to punishment. The clause also includes the important provision that people and organisations should be properly insured for whatever they may do. The clause puts into domestic law a clear set of responsibilities for operators visiting Antarctica.

As I have already made abundantly clear, amendment 1, which refers to historic sites and monuments, is unnecessary, because clause 15 relates to the people who are doing something rather than where the action is taken. However, it has provided another useful opportunity for me to make it clear that we are taking responsible action, and enabling others to take responsible action, in protecting monuments and sites of historical interest.

Let me end by expressing my gratitude for the opportunity that the debate has given us so far to expose and develop some of the elements of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael]

Absolutely, and I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Not only is he right about the new discoveries, but another interesting point is that existing marine life is taking a different shape in terms of breeding and growth and so on because of the changing temperatures. All that is part of the science that we need to see, which, of course, has been helped by really interesting technology, most particularly a glider—for gliding through the ocean, not the air—that is able to co-ordinate its own pathway and send valuable signals back to Rothera about what it is finding throughout the ocean, from top to bottom and along the bottom. We should be taking note and celebrating that kind of research and science. There was other scientific work as well.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend has explained that he went to Rothera, which is one of the year-round stations. As he will know, however, there are also two field stations: Fossil Bluff and Sky Blu, with Fossil Bluff being nearest to Rothera. Did he have the opportunity to visit the research stations?

[Neil Carmichael]

No, I did not get to Sky Blu although I heard an awful lot about it. It is a very important part of the work by the British Antarctic Survey and will remain so for some time. It is excellent that it is doing so well and contributing so much to our knowledge base about what is happening, and what will and could happen on that continent.

We were also told about long-term record keeping of weather conditions, temperatures and so forth. That is important because we cannot just take a snapshot now and make a judgment; we need to go back some years. The British Antarctic Survey has been working on climate change, looking for patterns and studying changes for nearly 20 years. That knowledge base is important and it is used by others as a benchmark for measuring developments in climate change.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael]

Yes I did, and the ice cores are from drilling down into ice that is 800,000 years old. That tells us a huge amount about what was happening to the air, because trapped within the ice are very small air bubbles that contain strong messages and signals about what life was like all those years ago. Ice core research is a huge logistical exercise. First it has to be drilled and transported, and then it needs to go to Cambridge for proper evaluation.

That brings me to the important role that the British Antarctic Survey plays in providing logistics, not just to the scientists—although that is crucial—but to visitors and other structures. I want to emphasise the international nature of the British Antarctic Survey. It is able to help other nation states in their work and I was particularly struck by the good relationships that exist between the various countries represented, in connection with scientific discoveries and the work they do.

As I mentioned in connection with clause 5, the memorandum of understanding between Britain and Chile was signed before Christmas and is clearly much appreciated by the Chileans. Britain also has relationships with other European countries, which serves to enhance the quality of the work—not least because a Dutch contingent of scientists at Rothera is doing important work in the invertebrates department—and shows the level of co-operation. Co-operation is necessary in the Antarctic continent because the risks are great—they really are great. Not being able or willing to help others would be a danger, but that danger does not exist because of those good relationships.

The British Antarctic Survey performs another important role: the simple fact of being there. It is important that Britain has a proper location in Antarctica that it supports and promotes. I was impressed by the level of dedication shown by everybody at Rothera and in all parts of the Survey’s activities. Ultimately, they are there for their work, and for their commitment to science and to the continent. However, by being there, they also show Britain’s commitment to the continent. That has to be noted, celebrated and properly recognised. For those reasons, I was pleased to go to Antarctica and meet people from the British Antarctic Survey, to thank them for all they have done, reassure them of my personal support and the continued support of the Government, and underline the fact that by visiting them we are signalling that we appreciate the things they do. We understand the stresses and strains involved in their work, and we want them to know that it is properly appreciated. I thank the British Antarctic Survey for giving me an opportunity to see all of that.

[Mr Nuttall]

While my hon. Friend was on his visit, did any of the scientists he met express any views about the Bill?

[Neil Carmichael]

Yes, they did. They were extraordinarily appreciative of it going through Parliament, and thanked me for promoting it. The Bill was one of the reasons I was there, and I learnt a lot about the impact it will have on Antarctica. I saw the appreciation from members of the British Antarctic Survey, and noticed that other countries were also appreciative of the Bill, particularly Chile. I was with the Chileans for some time, as we flew to Chile before we got to Antarctica. I had the opportunity of visiting the Chilean Antarctic Institute, which is the Chilean equivalent of the British Antarctic Survey. Like us, it has a strong science wing and recognises the importance of logistics—although it does not use its own, but accesses other logistical services—and like us, it recognises the importance of international co-operation. In terms of regional geopolitics, that co-operation is all the more important given the issues relating to the Falkland Islands, Argentina and other nation states. The presence and commitment that we have demonstrated in Antarctica for decades and the relationships we are developing with nearby nation states are necessary to ensure that our broader interests are protected and enhanced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Carmichael]

Absolutely. I have been to the university in Plymouth. I presented a paper on restructuring the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, but my thoughts were not taken into account by the then Prime Minister. There we are. I enjoyed my time there, however.

My constituency of Stroud has a strong connection with the Scott memory. Sir Peter Scott, the son of Captain Scott, established the Slimbridge Wildfowl Trust there. That was emblematic of Captain Scott’s wish—almost his last wish, in fact—that his son should get involved in that kind of activity. It is also emblematic of the fact that my constituency is interested in protecting the environment and is prepared to take the necessary steps to do so. I am proud of that connection between my constituency and Antarctica. One reason why I am so pleased to be able to take the Bill through the House of Commons is that there is a huge synergy between protecting the environment in my constituency and the need to do so in Antarctica. My constituency link and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) are strong and should be clearly stated.

I touched on the foreign policy aspect of the legislation when I mentioned Chile and Argentina. It is important to note that other nation states are becoming interested in Antarctica. Just 12 nation states signed the treaty in 1959, but now the number expressing an interest in Antarctica exceeds 50. Unlike us, however, some of those nation states do not have aims and objectives consistent with a determination to protect the environment. We should be using our influence to ensure, first, that all nation states respect the idea that Antarctica should remain properly protected and not be exploited, and secondly that it remains demilitarised. It is important to state and restate both those points, because we have to remember that Antarctica is pristine, vulnerable, pivotal to our climate change issues and has no Government. It relies on interested nation states coming to an agreement, including on territorial claims, about which we have heard in the past few weeks and whose contest the treaty suspends. We should take note of that.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend makes a good point about the work of the Antarctic treaty consultative meeting—the highest level of government controlling the area—which will next occur in Belgium in May. Does he have any plans to attend that meeting on behalf of the House?

[Neil Carmichael]

I have no immediate plans, but it is important that we are properly represented at such gatherings. I know that the Government will ensure that their views are expressed and their contributions made—given the Minister’s excellent performance, we can be confident of that—but my hon. Friend makes a good point. As I have said already, I am committed to ensuring that other nation states do the right thing, behave in the right way and take the appropriate steps to improve and protect Antarctica.

Political leadership is extremely important and it is right that Britain plays a significant leadership role, because we were one of the first nation states to show an interest in Antarctica and have been consistent on it ever since. We have always conducted ourselves responsibly—I do not expect to be contradicted on that—and we should be encouraging others to follow that example.

We debated the Bill in detail on Report, but it is important briefly to canter through its key parts.