Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Nigel Adams Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Again for full transparency, prior to becoming an MP I worked for Google, in which I have a small share interest at the moment.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

As I stated in the earlier session, I am a director and shareholder of two telecommunications businesses, and I believe my wife is also a director and shareholder.

Examination of Witnesses

David Austin and Alan Wardle gave evidence.

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[The Chair]

Just before we move on, shall we see if Mr Wardle also wants to contribute to things that should be in the Bill?

Alan Wardle: On that point, I think it is important for us that there is clarification—and I would agree with David about this—in terms of ensuring that sites that may for instance be commercial but that are not profiting from pornography are covered. Again, Twitter is an example. We know that there are porn stars with Twitter accounts who have lots of people following them and lots of content, so it is important that that is covered.

It is important that the legislation is future-proofed. We are seeing at the NSPCC through Childline that sexual content or pornography are increasingly live-streamed through social media sites, and there is self-generated content, too. It is important that that is covered, as well as the traditional—what you might call commercial—porn. We know from our research at the NSPCC that children often stumble across pornography, or it is sent to them. We think that streamed feeds for over-18s and under-18s should be possible so that sort of content is not available to children. It can still be there for adults, but not for children.

[Nigel Adams]

Q Can you give us your perspective on the scale of the problem of under-18s’ access to this sort of inappropriate content? I guess it is difficult to do a study into it but, through the schools network and education departments, do you have any idea of the scale of the issue?

Alan Wardle: We did research earlier this year with the University of Middlesex into this issue. We asked young people—under 18s—whether they had seen pornography and when. Between the ages of 11 and 18, about half of them had seen pornography. Obviously, when you get to older children—16 and 17-year-old-boys in particular—it was much higher. Some 90% of those 11 to 18-year-olds had seen it by the age of 14. It was striking—I had not expected this—that, of the children who had seen it, about half had searched for it but the other half had stumbled across it through pop-ups or by being sent stuff on social media that they did not want to see.

It is a prevalent problem. If a determined 17-year-old boy wants to see pornography, undoubtedly he will find a way of doing it, but of particular concern to us is when you have got eight, nine or 10-year-old children stumbling across this stuff and being sent things that they find distressing. Through Childline, we are getting an increasing number of calls from children who have seen pornographic content that has upset them.

[Nigel Adams]

Q Has there been any follow-on, in terms of assaults perpetrated by youngsters as a result of being exposed to this?

Alan Wardle: It is interesting to note that there has been an exponential rise in the number of reports of sexual assaults against children in the past three or four years. I think it has gone up by about 84% in the past three years.

[Nigel Adams]

Q By children?

Alan Wardle: Against children. Part of that, we think, is what you might call the Savile effect—since the Savile scandal there has been a much greater awareness of child abuse and children are more likely to come forward, which we think is a good thing. But Chief Constable Simon Bailey, who is the national lead on child protection, believes that a significant proportion of that is due to the internet. Predators are able to cast their net very widely through social networking sites and gaming sites, fishing for vulnerable children to groom and abuse.

We believe that, in developing the code of practice that I talked about earlier, that sort thing needs to be built in to ensure that children are protected from that sort of behaviour in such spaces. The internet is a great thing but, as with everything, it can be used for darker purposes. We think there is increasing evidence—Simon Bailey has said this, and more research needs to be done into the scale of it—that children, as well as seeing adult content, are increasingly being groomed for sex online.

[Nigel Adams]

Q Mr Austin, what constructive conversations and meetings have you had with ISPs thus far, in terms of the potential for blocking those sites—especially the sites generated abroad?

David Austin: We have not had any conversations yet, because we signed the exchange of letters with the Government only last Thursday and it was made public only today that we are taking on this role. We have relationships with ISPs—particularly the mobile network operators, with which we have been working for a number of years to bring forward child protection on mobile devices.

Our plan is to engage with ISPs, search engines, social media—the range of people we think are ancillary service providers under the Bill—over the next few weeks and months to see what we can achieve together. We will also be talking to the adult industry. As we have been regulating pornography in the offline space and, to an extent, in the online space for a number of years, we have good contacts with the adult industry so we will engage with them.

Many companies in the adult industry are prepared to work with us. Playboy, for instance, works with us on a purely voluntary basis online. There is no law obliging it to work with us, but it wants to ensure that all the pornography it provides is fully legal and compliant with British Board of Film Classification standards, and is provided to adults only. We are already working in this space with a number of players.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Obviously, the BBFC is very experienced at classifying films according to certain classifications and categories. I am sure it is no easy task, but it is possible to use an objective set of criteria to define what is pornographic or disturbing, or is it subjective? How do you get that balance?

David Austin: The test of whether something is pornographic is a test that we apply every single day, and have done since the 1980s when we first started regulating that content under the Video Recordings Act 1984. The test is whether the primary purpose of the work is to arouse sexually. If it is, it is pornography. We are familiar with that test and use it all the time.

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[Claire Perry]

No, specifically about the part 5 questions.

Renate Samson: Okay. We have not, in our evidence and our concerns, asked for a perfect Bill, although I do not believe there is any harm in trying to make the best piece of legislation we can. The work that we do with the Privacy and Consumer Advisory Group and as part of the open policy making process is about having engagement, to ensure that we are the leading light in data sharing, but also data protection. As Mr Killock has mentioned, we are currently looking at the Data Protection Act 1998. That will probably expire in May 2018, and we will get the general data protection regulation. Right now the measure in question does not even refer to that, or, indeed, to the Investigatory Powers Bill. It refers to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the DPA. Also, it will probably fail on a number of the key points of the GDPR, in relation to potential profiling, consent of the individual, and putting the citizen at the heart of data sharing and data protection.

I am not looking for “perfect”, but I think “perfect” is a good place to head towards.

[Nigel Adams]

Q My question is for Mr Killock, with regard to what the Bill is seeking to do in terms of equalisation of copyright offence penalties. I just wondered why your organisation was not in favour of rights holders—the tens of thousands of content creators. Why is your organisation not keen on the idea in the Bill?

Jim Killock: That would be a misrepresentation. We are quite clear in our response. We are worried about the impact of this on people who should not be criminalised and who we thought the Government were not trying to criminalise in this case. Our position is that if the Government are going to extend the sentence and have the same sentence online as offline for criminal copyright infringement—that is to say, 10 years—then they need to be very careful about how the lines are drawn, because the offences are quite different. Offline, in the real world, criminal copyright infringement covers a number of acts. It is all about copying and duplication. Essentially, it is about criminal gangs duplicating DVDs and the like. Online, making that separation is harder, because everything looks like the same act—that is to say, publication. You put something on the internet, it is a publication. So how do you tell who is the criminal and who is the slightly idiotic teenager, or whatever it happens to be? How do you make sure that people who should not be threatened with copyright criminal sentences are not given those threats?

We particularly draw attention to the phenomenon of copyright trolling. For instance, there is a company called Golden Eye International, a pornographer which specialises in sending bulk letters to Sky customers, BT customers and so on, saying, “Please pay us £300 because you downloaded a film that is under copyright.” These are obviously pornographic films and they then wait for people to pay up. They have no specific knowledge that these people are actually the people doing the downloading, all they know is that somebody appears to have downloaded.

[Nigel Adams]

Q Sorry to interrupt, but the idea of the Bill is not to go after people who are downloading content, it is purely for those who are uploading content for commercial gain. That is the whole purpose.

Jim Killock: Unfortunately, that is not how the language of the offence reads. The test in the offence is that somebody is “causing a loss”, which is defined as not paying a licence fee, or is “causing the risk of loss”, about which your guess is as good as mine, but it is essentially the same as making available, because if you have made something available and somebody else can then make a copy, and then infringe copyright further and avoid further licence fees, basically that is a criminal act. So file sharers, whether they are small or large, all appear to be criminal copyright thieves. Similarly, people who are publishing things on websites without licence are also potentially criminalised. Those things can be dealt with much better and more simply through civil courts and civil copyright action. What we are calling for is either to get rid of those things which are attacking individuals and wrongly bringing individuals into scope, or to put thresholds of seriousness around the risk of loss and/or causing loss. Something like, “Serious risk of causing significant loss” would be the way to deal with this. Similarly, “Causing serious loss”.

[Nigel Adams]

Q But if you are knowingly uploading creative content online for commercial gain, to my mind it does not matter whether it is 50 quid or 50,000 quid, you are knowingly stealing someone’s content.

Jim Killock: The commercial gain is not part of this offence. That is what I am saying. The offence is purely to cause loss—in other words, to not pay a licence fee—or to cause risk of loss. There is no “commercial” in it. So you have to put the threshold somewhere. You have an offence for the commercial activities and, separately, individuals who cause risk of loss or fail to pay a licence fee.

[Nigel Adams]

Q What do you think is a reasonable limit? Where would you set the limit?

Jim Killock: In terms of taking someone to court, there is no particular limit. If I cause £20 of damage to somebody where I should have paid it, the small claims court should be available and I should be able to either prosecute someone or be prosecuted in a civil court in the normal way. The question of how much is “serious” is, in all likelihood, something we should probably leave to the discretion of judges. It will not be very easy to fix a particular amount, but I think “serious” is usually the word used.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q As you have already recognised, this part of the Bill has already been subject to a consultation. There were 282 responses to that consultation, with the majority of them being broadly supportive. You have raised quite a few perfectly valid concerns, but do you accept that there is broad public support for the sharing of data when there is a clear social upside?

Jim Killock: I think we are all clear that data sharing should be enabled. The question is how you do that without it being a completely wide open process. The principle is not something that anyone has ever objected to.

Renate Samson: On the consultation that you referred to, you just told me that there were 282 submissions and that most of them were broadly supportive, but the Government response did not indicate who was supportive and who was not, and I have not seen the submissions on the website to be able to see for myself who was broadly supportive and who was not.

Having been part of the open policy making process, I would say that several people in that room had a large number of concerns. They were not concerns to prevent data sharing, but concerns to ensure that data sharing could happen in the safest way possible, and not just in terms of privacy. That way, not only can Government benefit from it and clear processes can be established in Government, but the citizen can understand why their data are being shared and can then be supportive of it and can trust that their data are going to be looked after. It is about the citizen being able to feel as though their personal data, which are now part of the air we breathe in a connected, digital society—we cannot function without our data—are safe and secure. It is about not only data being private, because there are varying degrees of privacy, particularly when you are sharing, but the Government understanding that.

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[The Chair]

Thank you. We have two more questioners: Nigel Adams followed by Louise Haigh.

[Nigel Adams]

Q Mr Nowak, you alluded earlier to the element of the Bill that you support and referred to musicians. The Bill is trying to bring in measures that would equalise the measures for copyright theft. That is a really good thing to try, and the Musicians Union is very supportive of that measure. Is there anything else that you think would strengthen the Bill in terms of protecting rights holders? We have a huge problem in this country of content creators—rights holders—not getting rewarded because their work is put online illegally. There is quite a bit of work that the tech companies could be doing, but how do you think we could strengthen this area to protect many of your members?

Paul Nowak: I reiterate the points that I made before, but perhaps I can also make an offer. That is certainly an issue on which our Federation of Entertainment Unions—including the Musicians’ Union, the National Union of Journalists, the Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union and Equity—would welcome the opportunity for further engagement with the Committee, and we could certainly provide more written information.

First of all, though, we should ensure that online providers are held accountable for any material outside of copyright that they host online. The second point that I made before is that if there is no voluntary, agreed way forward, the Government should be prepared to introduce a code of practice. If you are a musician, the online world and the emerging digital economy clearly throws up all sorts of opportunities, but there is also a real risk. It is not about the creation of a piece of work over three or four minutes; the hours, the days, the weeks that went into the creation of that piece of work could quite easily be dissipated and lost, and somebody else is profiting from the input you have made. It is not an area in which I am an expert, but our entertainment unions would certainly wish to give more evidence.

[Nigel Adams]

Q That is useful. It is not only about musicians; there are also the people who create content, such as authors, artists and writers.

Paul Nowak: For your information, the latest TUC affiliate is the Artists’ Union England, which represents visual artists. We represent people right across the creative industries, including the musicians, the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain, Equity, which represents actors, and, as I say, visual artists. We would be happy to feed in more information directly from those unions.