Nigel Mills
Main Page: Nigel Mills (Conservative - Amber Valley)Department Debates - View all Nigel Mills's debates with the HM Treasury
(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, in which there has been a wide range of contributions. We have had a rerun of the Budget, Second Reading and most of yesterday’s debate. It would seem unreasonable for me not to make a wide-ranging contribution on this topic as well.
Nigel Mills
No, I will happily discuss the granny tax. I feel no shame about my Government’s policies. Unlike Opposition Members, I am not trying to airbrush out most of the last 12 years of history and pretend that all those disasters never happened. I am happy to address what the Government are doing.
We need to put the position in context. In the financial year that has just ended we were still spending £126 billion more than the tax revenue that was raised, and we expect to spend more than £90 billion more than tax revenue in the current tax year. That is not a healthy financial situation, and it is not a desirable position. We do not have enough money to go around doing many things that we would like to do, no matter how useful or socially valuable. The global financial situation is very difficult, and we must make difficult decisions. During the election campaign, Government Members told potential constituents “This will be a difficult Parliament. We will have to make cuts, not because we do not think the things we are cutting are good and not because we would not prefer to leave them as they are, but because we must try to sort out the horrible mess that exists.”
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
Did the hon. Gentleman say to his constituents “Elect me, and we will introduce a granny tax to fund a tax cut of £40,000 for 14,000 millionaires”?
Nigel Mills
Obviously I did not say that, because I would have been wrong if I had, but I did say that no section of the population would be spared the pain caused by our sorting out the mess that we would have to deal with. I would also have said that I considered the 50p or, more accurately, 52p tax rate an invidious measure which had been devised as a political trap, that it was a terrible tax policy, and that it would probably raise very little money.
The two independent studies that support the Budget have shown that the cost of lowering the rate to 45p is about £100 million a year. The saving from the so-called granny tax is approximately 10 times the size of that. If anything in the Budget is being funded by the granny tax, it is the reduction in personal allowances for the low earners in society.
Charlie Elphicke
Does my hon. Friend recall the former Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair saying back in 1997, “Elect us and we will destroy the private pensions system on which you rely for your retirement with a £150 billion impost”? I do not recall anything of that nature appearing in the Labour party’s manifesto.
Nigel Mills
I think my hon. Friend is suggesting that we should view the issue in the round—the issue, that is, of how we can encourage people to fund their own retirement and achieve the decent level of income that they want in a way that is not unaffordable for the taxpayer.
Mr McKenzie
I suspect that at the last election the hon. Gentleman did not tell his constituents that he would impose a granny tax on them, but that he did tell them that if the Conservatives were elected they would be a fair Government. Is it fair to impose this granny tax while also giving a tax benefit to millionaires? Will he go back to his constituents and tell them that this is a fair Government, therefore?
Nigel Mills
I certainly did say to my constituents that we would be a fair Government. I support fair tax measures. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) quoted the IFS saying the granny tax was a
“a relatively modest tax increase on a group hitherto well sheltered from tax and benefit changes.”
While Opposition Members may not wish to believe the Government’s pronouncements, or even those of the Office for Budget Responsibility or the Office of Tax Simplification, perhaps they will believe those of the IFS.
We are not in a happy situation. I do not think any of us are happy about the types of Budget we are going to need to have throughout this Parliament and even perhaps most of the next one. There will have to be a series of measures on both taxation and spending that are going to hurt large parts of the population, while we try to tackle the deficit, which still amounted to £126 billion last year.
Kate Green
Something interesting and important was said a few moments ago: it is important that we design a system that encourages people to save and to look after themselves to a degree in retirement, and which rewards them for doing so. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the problems with the granny tax is that people who have been able to make modest savings into small pension pots for their retirement, and who therefore perhaps now have an income of £12,000 or £13,000 a year, are seeing the effort they made to save completely wiped away? Is that not an injustice that is of particular concern if the Government want to incentivise saving for retirement?
Nigel Mills
I accept that that is an issue in respect of the granny tax proposal, but I suspect that the £5 billion tax raid which has been referred to and a whole series of other measures that have discouraged saving will have far more serious impacts. I am sure the hon. Lady would join me in welcoming the Government’s proposal to introduce the flat-rate individual state pension of, I think, £140 per individual, as that will help address the problem she mentioned.
Charlie Elphicke
Does my hon. Friend agree that the previous intervention was a real cheek? The party of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) destroyed our pension system and raided our pension funds, and it also destroyed thrift by introducing means testing into the pensions system, thereby totally disincentivising any form or saving and personal responsibility whatever.
Rachel Reeves
If the hon. Gentleman is such a strong advocate of saving, will he join me in expressing disappointment about the fact that this Government have abolished the savings gateway and the baby bond, and have watered down automatic enrolment so that it will be introduced at a later date, and for people earning higher incomes than envisaged under the last Labour Government?
Nigel Mills
The hon. Lady is tempting me to make an even more broad-ranging speech than I had intended, and if I were to talk about such matters, I suspect I might be in danger of being ruled out of order. Let me repeat that there are things that would be nice to have but that are unaffordable in the current situation. Difficult decisions have had to be taken and spending has had to be targeted where it is most needed.
Returning to the topic of the granny tax, I do not feel guilt—that is the wrong word—but I do strongly believe that we need to simplify our tax system. Setting up the OTS is a great measure that this Government have taken, and it has performed the tasks given to it incredibly well. Those of us who advocate tax simplification have to accept that whenever we try to simplify tax, it is likely that some people will win and others will lose out. At a time of budget constraint, there is no way of softening the blow on those who will be losers, so we are left with a choice between muddling on as we are, with a ridiculously complicated and clunky tax system, or trying to simplify it in the hope that in the long run we will end up with a far better system.
Nigel Mills
I have given way many times, so I shall not do so again.
I am not sure that the Government have quite gone down the model line by picking up on the key points made in the OTS report on pensioner taxation. However, if we consider the tax system for pensioners—with higher personal allowances for those over 65 and those over 75, the tapering or claw-back of money depending on how much income they have, as well as all the other different allowances—we can see that the situation is incredibly confusing.
Elizabeth Truss
Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the things we need to do at the moment is encourage employers to take on more staff? If we have a system such as the Chancellor proposes in the long term and is certainly looking at, whereby national insurance and tax are simplified, it will be much easier for employers to process those expenses and to take on new staff, and that will really help to get the economy going.
Nigel Mills
I entirely agree about a simplified tax system, and if we could have found a way of merging income tax and national insurance, taking away one complexity, that would have been a great step forward. The tax regime for pensioners—people in retirement—is far too complicated and we need to find a way of simplifying it.
Nigel Mills
Not at the moment. I am sure that all hon. Members have seen pensioners in their surgeries who have suddenly been landed with a huge tax bill that they were not expecting because PAYE had not been deducted from a private pension or because they had different income levels from those they were expecting. All of a sudden these people are facing a bill of a £1,000 or more that they literally cannot afford, and through no fault of their own. So the whole spirit of trying to simplify the tax position for pensioners is exactly the right way forward. This measure is not the end of that; it will be the start of trying to get to a place where everyone can understand what their correct tax position will be and will not have to fill in myriad tax returns. People have to claim this age-related allowance, and that is slightly unusual. Normally, people expect their personal allowance to be an automatic thing, but people have to write to claim this, and that has always struck me as a strange anomaly.
The direction we are trying to take is clearly the right one. This measure is not something that any of us would have wanted to do, and I feel sympathy for all those pensioners, including my parents, who will lose money as a result of it. This is one of the many issues about which we do not just get grief from our constituents; we get grief about it from our own families every time we see them. I have to try to explain to my family why they have to put up with this pain. When we have got the personal allowance up to £10,000, the actual value of these increased allowances over that level will have been greatly reduced compared with the £3,000 difference that I believe the figure was at the start of this Parliament.
I do not think that anyone in this House is saying that as the basic personal allowance is rightly hiked up to £10,000, there is any way we can afford to hike the pension one up by the same amount—all anyone was ever expecting was for it to go up by some measure of inflation. As that benefit was to be so reduced by the end of this Parliament, we have to wonder whether or not the actual benefit to people would have been worth all the complexity, and all the hassle of maintaining these things and the delivery cost.
So I say to the Government that simplifying tax is right. This measure is one of those in the box marked, “Necessary, but unpleasant and not what we wanted to do”. We would all much rather find ways of giving our pensioners more income, but I am convinced that this is one of those things that we just have to do to take our tax system in the right direction and try to fix the deficit. However, I encourage the Government to examine all the other things in the Office of Tax Simplification’s report on tax and pensions and try to introduce some of them too, so that we get a fully developed and balanced reform, rather than just this start.