Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Oliver Heald Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 27th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Robert Halfon]

Of course I will consider the representations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester and others across the House. We will try to get the consultation out speedily, but it will be published by Report.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that as we look to educate people perhaps in middle age into new skills and to improve their higher education for the future, it would be good to ensure that we get the sort of skills we need as a country, and to have a form of workforce planning? As we know, we are short of doctors and nurses, but there are others areas such as welders, life sciences and so on where we have great hopes and needs for future industry. Does he think there is a way of directing that sort of effort in a more planned way?

[Robert Halfon]

That is exactly what the Government’s programme is doing. We are investing in employer-led qualifications—that is exactly what this is about—and the LLE will enable many millions more people to have access to get on the skills ladder of opportunity.

Mental Health Education in Schools

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Monday 6th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Catherine McKinnell]

Yes—I will come on to some of the big challenges in this area. It is one thing for us to agree on the principles and on the fact that we want a much better focus on mental health in the education system, but it is another matter to ensure we make the tools and resources available to make that a reality for every child in this country. I will expand on that later.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

The Northherts Emotionalhealth in Schools Service trains teachers, parents and students, with peer mentoring, so all parts of the school team work together on mental health. It has been really quite successful, and has held conferences. Should the Government not look at examples such as that—it is funded by Hertfordshire County Council—for the future?

[Catherine McKinnell]

Indeed. I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman for putting that on the record.

I pay tribute to UsActive, a Newcastle-based charity, whose representatives I met recently. It uses physical activity to promote better mental health for children and young people in my local area, and highlights the interrelated nature of physical and mental health in young people’s lives. I absolutely agree with the concerns that the petition raises. We must highlight the link between our physical and mental health if we are to get the best outcomes for our children holistically and educationally.

I agree that the earlier that children and young people are educated about these issues, the better. We must properly support them throughout their childhood, help them to develop resilience so they can deal with any issues they face, prepare them for adult life, help them to develop coping mechanisms for the many challenges that life will bring, and ensure that they become well-rounded individuals capable of empathy and understanding for others, whether friends, family members or work colleagues, who will inevitably be affected by mental health issues. They should recognise that such issues are as much a part of everyday life as physical health concerns.

I am delighted that I have a local link to the creator of the e-petition through my constituent Reverend Mark Edwards, who works closely with the Shaw Mind Foundation to raise awareness about mental health. Mark recently published a book via Trigger Press about his mental health journey entitled “Life After Care: From Lost Cause to MBE”. It details how he went from spending the majority of his childhood in foster care and being sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983 to being a team vicar at St Matthew’s church in Dinnington in my constituency, a volunteer first responder with the North East Ambulance Service, police chaplain to the Northumbria police and a former volunteer lifeboat crew member—all of which led to his being awarded an MBE. Mark has shared his experience because, in his own words:

“So many people’s stories end in tragedy either because they suffer in silence or because they feel there is no support for them and that they are the only one suffering mental health issues.”

Crucially, he wanted to share his story to illustrate that “there is always hope”. Mark’s story is a powerful one, and would be if it were included in any mental health education delivered in schools.

--- Later in debate ---

[Catherine McKinnell]

My hon. Friend speaks from great knowledge, experience and passionate campaigning. I agree very much with what he has said. We would not tolerate a child with a broken leg being left untreated for months on end, yet that is the case for far too many of our children and young people who present with mental health issues that clearly need professional attention. Such is the concern about the situation in my local area that the newly established community-led campaigning organisation Tyne and Wear Citizens has decided to hold an inquiry into the issue in the new year, very much based on feedback from groups of young people who have raised it as their key concern. I look forward to taking part in that inquiry in the months to come.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

I agree very much with the general thrust of what has just been asked and said, but does the hon. Lady also agree that making counselling available in the school, increasing awareness among parents of issues such as self-harm and anxiety, and having peer mentors—to take an holistic approach—can nip in the bud some conditions that could otherwise get worse?

[Catherine McKinnell]

I absolutely agree, and we are not at odds in that viewpoint. What I hope comes out of the debate—what I hope the Minister listens to and takes on board—is the holistic approach. It is about taking a whole-person approach in the education system, while ensuring that our health system matches it equally. We talk about parity, but my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is absolutely right that that is not a reality for those needing mental health support. We need proper training and resources in schools from as young an age as possible to give that support and educational input and to ensure that specifically trained health professionals can provide support and treatment where necessary for young people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

I do not intend to speak at great length. I would just like to reiterate the vital nature of this issue.

I support what my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Sir Nicholas Soames) said a moment ago: this has got to the point where it is of great national importance. Some years ago, I was my party’s mental health spokesman, and at that time we were learning about children’s mental health. We now have a real understanding of how early mental health problems can arise—something that was not fully understood back then —and how important it is to intervene as speedily as we can to tackle these issues, which can become much worse over time if that does not happen.

Hertfordshire County Council has supported the Northherts Emotionalhealth in Schools Service, led by a co-ordinator who is a very experienced school mental health counsellor. She is offering teacher training and support, and numerous teachers have now been taught about how counselling works and mental health issues that arise. Teachers have found that knowledge very useful for not only the students but themselves, because they also face pressures. The service offers training to parents, and forums are held on subjects such as self-harm and promoting resilience against anxiety, for which there is now quite a waiting list. It offers peer mentor training on positive mental health called “How to help a friend” and provides schools with registered counsellors, who are helping. There is close liaison with NHS services, so everybody knows what is going on. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex said, it is necessary to understand the problem but then also perhaps to pass it on, in cases of serious mental conditions.

That approach seems to be working quite well. The service has had support from the Anna Freud Centre and recently held a conference with early years and primary school staff. There was a really good response from everybody involved, including the Anna Freud Centre and Steve Mallen, who heads up the MindEd Trust. His son Ed took his life two years ago. Steve set up that charity and is very supportive of this approach. He believes it is helping parents, students and teachers. Comments that came out of the conference included,

“The workshops were particularly useful and I can see how they can be implemented in my school and be beneficial to the children and their families”

and,

“All of it was useful. A good balance between knowledge and practical stuff.”

This petition is about education in schools, but the Minister might like to look at the sort of service we have in north Hertfordshire, with his Green Paper in mind. Finally, it is worth mentioning that young people, of course, are marvellous with digital and social media. I understand that some apps are available that can help with anxiety and reinforce messages. He might want to look at that too.

School Governance (Constitution and Federations) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2016

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 General Committees

[Mr Gibb]

Yes. I will write to the hon. Gentleman about sixth-form colleges after the Committee, if I may.

The regulations also amend the School Governance (Federations) (England) Regulations 2012 to provide that the governing body of every federation of two or more maintained schools includes two parent governors.

The regulations bring maintained schools into line with current practice in the academies sector, where DBS checks are already compulsory for every person involved in governance. Similarly, academy trusts, however many schools they contain, have never been required to have more than two parents on the board. That allows governing bodies to remain at a workable size, enabling them to make sound and strategic decisions for their group of schools. We have consulted the Department’s advisory group on governance, which includes all organisations with a key interest in governance, and I emphasise that the National Governors Association supports both the measures.

Governors hold an important public office, and it is essential that we know that they are not unsuitable for their role. We have taken a number of measures to increase transparency in that area, including expecting governing bodies to publish their arrangements on their websites. Individuals should be disqualified from governance roles in maintained schools on a number of grounds, including if they have a criminal conviction involving certain sentences and imprisonment. Until now, the arrangements have relied on governors voluntarily disclosing such information or the clerk to the governing body requesting it, in contrast with the position in academies, where all members and trustees, and those on local governing bodies in multi-academy trusts, must be DBS checked.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

On the number of parent governors, if there are two village schools and one is a bit bigger than the other, I can see that there would be an advantage in having a parent governor from each of the villages. Is that something that should happen under this system, or is it entirely in the lap of the gods, in the sense that it depends on how many parents vote for a particular parent governor? If one school were quite a bit bigger than the other, the governing body might end up with two governors from one school.

[Mr Gibb]

We do not want to be too prescriptive. My hon. and learned Friend makes a good point and that would be an ideal way forward. We do not want to be over-prescriptive because, although he has set out one example, there is an infinite number of such examples out there. If we were to be prescriptive for every type of example, we would have a very long piece of regulation. Do not forget that those parents are not meant to be representative of the individual schools; they are meant to serve in the interests of the federation as a whole. We are trying to get away from the notion that they are there in a representative capacity and will only speak in the interests of the small school, and not be interested in what is happening in the larger school, such as in his example.

The current position contrasts with the position in academies, where all members have to be DBS checked if they are involved in a multi-academy trust. This more rigorous approach, we believe, should apply in the maintained sector, so that every governing body can be confident that none of its members is disqualified from holding office.

The amendment to the School Governance (Federations) (England) Regulations 2012, to which my hon. and learned Friend referred, was requested by the National Governors Association and the Churches. It was prompted by concerns that requiring the governing body of a federation of multiple maintained schools to have a parent governor from every school may result in a membership that is larger than they need or want. That can be a particular issue in larger federations or those that involve voluntary aided schools, where they need to maintain a majority of two foundation governors over all the other categories of governor.

The hon. Member for Scunthorpe cited an example of a federation of five schools. If those five schools were all voluntary aided, in addition to the five elected parent governors, they would have to have five headteachers, which would bring the governing body up to 10, a staff governor, which would bring it up to 11, and a local authority governor, making it 12. That means that the foundation itself would have to find another 14 foundation governors to maintain their majority of two, bringing the size of the governing body to 26. That would make it very unwieldy and could impact on its ability to operate effectively.

The amendment reinforces the principle that, as I said to my hon. and learned Friend, a parent governor’s role, like that of every other category of governor, is to govern in the interests of all the children in federated schools, not just in the interests of the pupils from their child’s school. In reducing the number of parent governors to two, federations have the freedom to retain or recruit any particularly skilled and effective individuals, for example, by appointing them under a different category of co-opted governor. There is nothing to stop a federation or a foundation asking parents to be a foundation governor of a foundation school, or indeed to fit in to any of the other categories of governor that make up the governing body, to a minimum of seven.

High-quality governance is vital to the success of all schools in an autonomous school-led system. Governing boards are responsible for some demanding strategic functions and their membership needs to be focused on the skills to do that well. Many parents do have skills that make them very effective governors. We expect that boards will continue to want to appoint parents for that reason. Parents should have a significant voice in schools.

As well as the provisions we are debating today, we have committed to empower parents further in the White Paper, “Educational Excellence Everywhere”. I will requote the line that the hon. Member for Scunthorpe helpfully quoted in his opening remarks from page 51 of the White Paper:

“We will also expect every academy to put in place arrangements for meaningful engagement with all parents, to listen to their views and feedback.”

That is the first time that that expectation will be imposed on academies. I do not believe it is patronising; it is the right thing to do to have that expectation on every multi-academy trust in the country.

The best schools demonstrate that parents can and should be involved in education in a wide variety of ways. We will always expect that one of those is governance. The provisions bring more rigour to ensure that those governing our schools are fit and proper people to hold office, and that federated governing bodies are not compelled to have more parent governors than they want.

Question put and agreed to.

Term-time Holidays

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Thursday 19th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gibb]

I am most grateful to you, Mr Speaker.

Under the previous Labour Government it had become accepted wisdom that parents could take their children out of school for term-time holidays for up to 10 days a year. We had to address that popular perception, and that is why the regulations were changed in 2013. In 2012, 32.7 million pupil days were lost owing to authorised absences. That figure has fallen to 28.6 million in 2014-15—that is, some 4 million fewer pupil school days lost as a consequence of the changes to the 2013 regulations. That is a huge success, and I wish that the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) would support the change.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that taking children out of school to come to the mother of all Parliaments to learn about our democracy is one thing, but taking them to Orlando, Florida is another? I welcome the rigour that he has brought to the subject of education, moving away from the “playways” type of Labour approach. Does he agree that if this country is going to succeed, it needs to take education seriously?

[Mr Gibb]

My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. This is about social justice. When parents with income take their children out of school to go to Florida, that sends a message to everyone that school attendance is not important. There is no circumstance in which a trip to Disney World can be regarded as educational.

Further Education

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nicky Morgan]

Let me make some progress, and then I will take further interventions.

The shadow Secretary of State asked why we prioritised spending on five to 16 rather than 16 to 19. I wonder whether she has checked out what her own party did when they were last in Government. What is interesting to note is that per pupil student funding increased twice as fast for those aged five to 16 between 2005-06 and 2010-11 as it did for those in 16-to-19 education. That is the very thing that she accuses us of doing.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend any information that will enable us to judge whether more children are now in a good or outstanding school, and what achievements are being made as a result of that vital investment put in at a very difficult time by the previous Government?

[Nicky Morgan]

My hon. and learned Friend looks at the achievements and the positives, which is important. I am delighted to say that 82% of schools across England and Wales are now rated good or outstanding. That is a significant increase since 2010. We have more students studying maths A-level, more students doing the EBacc and the core academic subjects, more students learning to read well and confidently by the end of the first stage of primary school, and more students doing better at the key stage 2 test at the end of primary school leading into secondary school. Clearly, despite the difficult economic climate of the previous Parliament, some really, really good progress has been made.

First Aid Techniques: National Curriculum

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Tuesday 10th March 2015 Westminster Hall

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

It is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I am grateful for the opportunity to have one last go in this Parliament to persuade the Government and my Front Benchers that there is a chance simply, easily, cheaply and immediately to save lives and to transform society.

Teaching emergency life support skills in schools and the community is

“a no brainer, it’s just common sense”.

Those words are not mine, but those of Dr Andy Lockey at the Resuscitation Council. There are 150,000 people a year who die in situations in which, if only someone had known what to do, their lives might have been saved. There are 30,000 people who have out-of-hospital cardiac arrests, but fewer than one in 10 survives. If only someone knew how to do cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or CPR, and if a defibrillator was available, survival rates could increase to 50%.

Emergency life support skills are a set of actions needed to keep somebody alive until professional help arrives. They include performing CPR, putting an unconscious person into the recovery position, dealing with choking and serious bleeding, and helping someone who might be having a heart attack. Such skills are particularly crucial at the time of a cardiac arrest, when every second counts. For every minute that passes in cardiac arrest, the chance of survival falls by 10%. If CPR is started immediately, the time that the person remains in a shockable, and hence reversible, condition will be prolonged. It also means that there will be more of the person’s brain function left—more of them left—if they are resuscitated. At the moment, it is down to luck.

Three years ago, Fabrice Muamba had a cardiac arrest when he was playing for Bolton Wanderers against Tottenham. Fabrice was lucky because he had his cardiac arrest where there were people who were trained in what to do. He was lucky because the club medics and the paramedics gave him immediate CPR on the pitch, so his brain was saved. He was lucky because medics did not give up on him and worked on him for 78 minutes until his heart restarted. Because he was with people who knew what to do, we still have the charming, intelligent Fabrice in this world with us.

My sister’s friend, Malcolm McCormick, was also lucky. Just a month after Fabrice’s cardiac arrest, Malcolm went to school to pick up his grandchildren and he keeled over, effectively dead, not breathing, heart not beating. Malcolm was lucky because one of the people waiting to collect children was a retained firefighter who started to give CPR. He was very lucky because once a month another firefighter volunteers in the school tuck shop, and it was his Friday to be working, so he came and took control of the situation.

Malcolm was also lucky because a defibrillator was available, and he was rushed to a specialist hospital. Three days later he left hospital with very sore ribs, but alive and with his brain intact. Four months later, he was a Games maker at the Paralympics.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

A mother and daughter were at the launch of the campaign in Parliament square. The daughter had saved her mother’s life by recognising that she was not breathing, and she was able to do CPR until the ambulance came. Seeing mother at the launch, chirpy and with it, was a heart-warming thing.

[Julie Hilling]

The hon. and learned Gentleman clearly caught sight of my speech before he raised his point. I was about to go on to say that Mandy Hobbs was really lucky, too. Her 14-year-old daughter, Samantha, woke up to hear her father on the phone saying that he thought her mum was dead. Samantha had learnt CPR at her swimming life-saving club, and she says that she went on to autopilot and started chest compressions. When she got too tired to carry on, she taught her father what to do. Mandy survived and now Samantha has become the pin-up girl of the British Heart Foundation. Mandy, dad Nick and Samantha are regular visitors to Parliament, trying to persuade the Government to make first aid compulsory in schools.

Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Monday 19th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gibb]

I agree that first aid and life-saving skills are very important, but the Government do not believe that it should be a statutory requirement for schools to teach those skills. We trust schools to make their own decisions about what is best in their circumstances. Many schools do choose to teach these skills, working with organisations such as the British Heart Foundation or St John Ambulance. I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend to consider what more can be done to promote these programmes in schools.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Education (Nicky Morgan)]

This is the first Education Question Time since the terrible massacre in Peshawar. I am sure that the House will want to offer our support to the brave students and teachers who have gone back to the school, and to offer our condolences to those who lost loved ones.

Since the last Question Time, my Department has announced plans to back a college of teaching, if that is what the profession chooses to opt for. Today we have published the Carter review of initial teacher training, as well as revised head teacher standards developed by those in the profession themselves.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

I join in the condolences expressed by my right hon. Friend.

Given the vital importance of budgeting and money management in tackling personal debt, does my right hon. Friend agree that numeracy is more important than ever? Will she update the House on what progress is being made in our schools in this vital area?

[Nicky Morgan]

I absolutely agree that numeracy is a critical life skill. Our new primary maths curriculum places a greater focus on understanding numbers and on calculation skills. To reinforce that, we have removed calculators from national curriculum tests, and new maths GCSEs will be more challenging and will ensure vital numeracy skills. As my hon. Friend the Minister for Skills and Equalities has said, young people beyond the age of 16 without a good pass at GCSE are now required to continue with mathematics, and for those with a grade C or above, new core maths qualifications that include financial literacy will improve numeracy further.

Lords Spiritual (Women) Bill

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Monday 19th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gyimah]

The Bill is very focused. It does not seek to change the composition or powers of the House of Lords, but to allow something that will happen anyway—the admission of female bishops to the House of Lords—to happen sooner than it otherwise would.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Church of England provides a structure right across the country for faiths to come together? It is the only Church of any size to do so and, as such, it plays a vital role. Other faiths support the role of bishops in the other place; it is not controversial, as the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) said.

[Mr Gyimah]

My hon. and learned Friend makes a very valid point. The Bill is not controversial. As the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg), has pointed out, it has cross-party support from Members throughout the House. It is not to do with the composition of the House of Lords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gyimah]

The 10 years is because the Church believes that that will be enough time to ensure that the Bishops’ Bench better reflects the gender diversity in the Church. At the end of 10 years, there is nothing to stop the Government of the time asking for the Bill to be extended. We are responding to the request of the Church. Whether it is 10, 20 or 30 years, it is down to the Church. Women bishops will end up serving in the Lords based on how fast they are appointed as bishops. The key driver is not the length of the sunset clause per se, but how speedily the Church appoints women to be bishops.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

If one looks at the experience of women priests—who now make up roughly half of the priests out there—there is no reason to think that there will not be plenty of women bishops coming through. This provides an opportunity for them to go into the House of Lords.

[Mr Gyimah]

Indeed. The Church proceeded speedily with women priests and I suspect it would move speedily with the appointment of women bishops, based on merit. The Bill will ensure, as I have pointed out, that female diocesan bishops, as they are appointed, do not have to wait to join the House of Lords as Lords Spiritual.

The Church’s decision to ordain women has been gradual and has taken place over the past 30 years or so. It has been something of a journey for the Church, beginning in 1975 when the General Synod passed the motion

“that there are no fundamental objections to the ordination of women into the priesthood”.

In 1985, it passed legislation to allow women to become deacons; in 1992, it allowed women to become priests; and in 2014, it took the historic decision, warmly welcomed in this House and elsewhere, that women as well as men could become bishops. Last December, the Rev. Libby Lane was announced as the future suffragan bishop of Stockport in the diocese of Chester. As a suffragan, rather than diocesan bishop, she is not yet eligible to join the Lords Spiritual.

Post Office Mediation Scheme

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Arbuthnot]

My right hon. Friend was the instigator of my first meeting with the Post Office, which was during the previous Parliament. Unfortunately he was then translated to the Cabinet, so he was unable to pursue these issues as he had previously. He is absolutely right, and I will return to his point in my suggestions, which I hope the Minister will consider.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

The conundrum that one of my constituents had is slightly different. She was prosecuted and found guilty. Her claim is that that was totally unfair and wrong, but she put into the scheme too late for the deadline. Now, of course, she is being offered a review by the Post Office, but she is not very confident that it will do a thorough review. Does my right hon. Friend have any thoughts on that? If it is only a short period after the deadline, should it not be possible for her to go into the scheme?

[Mr Arbuthnot]

Three or four weeks ago I would have given a different answer to my hon. and learned Friend’s question, but I am afraid that I no longer have faith in the scheme. Whether his constituent wishes to be in a scheme in which she may or may not have faith has to be up to her, but the Post Office certainly should not have an arbitrary cut-off point for examining such issues of injustice. I know that my hon. and learned Friend will continue to pursue the issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Arbuthnot]

My understanding is that the figure is something like that, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman, who has been a key member of the working group of MPs on this issue, will be able to expand on that point when he makes his speech, because I do not know the full detail.

The Post Office carried out no proper investigation into what had happened to Jo Hamilton. Julian Wilson, of the Redditch constituency, was told by Post Office staff that if there was money over at the end of the day, he should put it in an envelope and put that envelope in the safe, and then use that money to pay later shortfalls. It is so obvious that that amounts to false accounting, on the instructions of the Post Office itself, that it is bewildering. He kept asking for audits but the Post Office said, “We’ll audit you when we think you need an audit.” And yet he gets prosecuted and decides to plead guilty.

What allowance has been made by the Post Office for the fact that historically its support was so poor? So far as I can tell, none. What allowance has been made for the contract term that provides that the weakest links in the Post Office—the sub-postmasters—have to be found guilty unless they prove their innocence? So far as I can tell, none. This is not the way that our criminal law should work. What has happened to the money that the Post Office got from people such as Jo Hamilton via the South Warnborough village? Did it get taken into Post Office profits? This is, essentially, an issue of Post Office culture—the protection of assets at the expense of people.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

If there are problems with the software, or if the system is vulnerable to hacking of the sort that my right hon. Friend described, surely the Post Office would have taken steps to improve the software and/or made sure that it was more difficult to hack its system? Is there any evidence that it took such action, and if it did is that not in itself an admission that the system was vulnerable and that mistakes could have been made?

Financial Education

Oliver Heald Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Justin Tomlinson]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I could not agree more. That point is right behind our findings. I will set out the split that explains that. The report states:

“Personal finance elements of maths should be clearly highlighted to emphasise how they relate to real life decisions. If viable, the Government should implement the Smith Report and Maths Review’s recommendation for the twin GCSEs: ‘Application of Mathematics’ and ‘Methods in Mathematics’ to improve financial numeracy and ensure it is examined.”

Crucially, we saw that in the evidence on the factual side, such as calculating the cost of a loan. We set out some examples in the report that covered the cost of standard loans, calculating exchange rates, credit cards, savings, taxation, compound interest rates and APR, which was referred to earlier. Those are factual questions with factual answers that are right or wrong and should be properly examined. We think that that would drive up standards.

[Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

May I say what a fantastic job my hon. Friend and the all-party parliamentary group are doing? Does he agree that these issues also come up with pensions? One of the great concerns with auto-enrolment is that people who have not previously saved will need to understand the products, so this sort of education will be very valuable.

[Justin Tomlinson]

That came through in the evidence. If we go into primary schools and start talking about pensions, we might not necessary engage, but one thing leads to another, and if young people have the basic skills, they can go on to use them later in life.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Chapman]

I am very concerned about that. I am not only concerned about mathematics. My region has seen a drop of about 20% in higher education applications. We are assured that there will be a last-minute surge in applications. If that is not the case, I fear that we will face a serious problem.

[Oliver Heald]

Does the hon. Lady agree that there is also an important issue about an entrepreneurial society? If we do not have enough basic financial information and knowledge in our community, it is a brake on innovation and entrepreneurialism. It also means that people who do set up a business often cannot prepare a decent business case and that their business does not sustain itself. That is important to our economy, as are the matters that she is raising.

[Mrs Chapman]

I do agree with that. There are plenty of examples of entrepreneurs who have done incredibly well with little formal education. I do not know this for sure, but I do not think I am pushing the boat out too much to suggest that Duncan Bannatyne, who has his head office in my constituency, does not have a maths degree. Such exceptions aside, most people would benefit from having this sort of knowledge. I think that it would assist in the way that the hon. Gentleman indicates.

I will conclude because much of what I was going to say has already been said, and probably much more eloquently, by the hon. Member for North Swindon. [Interruption.] I was not expecting a response to that. On the advice of teachers, the all-party group on financial education for young people felt that it was necessary to have a champion for personal finance in each school. I had my doubts about that when the report was drafted, because I was not sure that schools would welcome having that burden loaded on to them. However, it was pointed out to me that teachers had argued strongly for that recommendation to be included. With that in mind, I am happy to support it.

The all-party group also believes that the subject should be examined, and I agree. Ofsted has stated that courses leading to formal accreditation have inspired

“a more coherent curriculum and sharper focus on the learning outcomes students were expected to achieve”.

As one head teacher has explained:

“Unless you test it, it will not happen”.

The introduction of dual mathematics GCSEs would promote the right objective and ensure that the subject is properly examined and taught.

I urge the House to examine the matter closely, take it seriously and include it in what I hope will be a package of measures that will help address the serious problem that we have not just with the lack of financial education but with debt more broadly. I hope that we will consider matters such as advertising, the provision of advice and the regulation of the high-cost lending market.

I wish to conclude with a lovely quotation that I have found, which I could not help but try to give at some point. Benjamin Franklin said:

“An investment in knowledge pays the best interest.”

I think that is quite a nice way to end.