Oral Answers to Questions

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Clarke]

This Government are determined to deliver for the people of Cambridgeshire. My colleagues at the Department of Health and Social Care will have heard my hon. Friend’s comments about the importance of this facility, and that is why we are investing £4.2 billion in new hospitals over the course of this Parliament.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

T10.   The recent announcement by the Chancellor on support with energy bills was welcome as far as it goes; however, I remain deeply concerned about my constituents in North Ayrshire and Arran who live in park homes, many of whom are elderly and vulnerable, who have no clarity as to whether they will receive the same support for energy bills as every other household in the UK. Will the Chancellor put an end to this uncertainty and confirm today that he will make a firm commitment to ensure that park home residents do not miss out on this vital support?

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Helen Whately)]

The hon. Member makes an important point about people living in park homes—I also have constituents who live in park homes—and we are determined to ensure that people receive the help that they need with the increase in energy costs. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has been consulting on how we deliver support to people living in places such as park homes that do not have the same electricity or energy supply as others.

UK Gross Domestic Product

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Monday 13th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[John Glen]

The hon. Gentleman will also know that the Government invested in a seasonal workers scheme for 30,000 across agriculture, which has made a significant impact. We will continue to work with industry to see what further interventions can be made and need to be made.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Cuts to VAT on fuel duty are now beyond urgent. Some £46 of tax is paid on the average fuel tank, as fuel prices rocket to new highs. As households and businesses struggle, the Treasury is raking in additional billions in VAT on fuel, which is driving inflation across the whole economy. Finally, can we at last have a temporary 10% reduction in VAT on fuel to assist households, businesses and consumers and to help get inflation back under some kind of control, which will help everyone?

[John Glen]

The hon. Lady will know that just two weeks ago, the Chancellor came to this Dispatch Box and made a series of targeted interventions, in a greater way than many were calling for, to give assistance to the most vulnerable in our society—to pensioners, to those on means-tested benefits and to the disabled—with more support for pensioners on top of that. She will also know that as we approach the fiscal event, we will look at the state of the economy and the best possible interventions to assist not only that growth narrative, but the most vulnerable.

Economy Update

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

That is why, as well as the very generous support for those on means-tested benefits, we have put in place universal support to ensure that all households receive an extra £200 on top of the £200 we have announced. That will help those people, as will the discretionary fund that we have established.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

It is right that those companies making billions in excess profits should contribute more tax in these difficult times, and the Chancellor recognised that today by announcing a windfall tax on oil and gas companies. Disappointingly, Labour has been strangely silent on the huge profits made by other big businesses such as Amazon, even though that company’s tax-to-turnover rate is a shameful 0.37%. Can the Chancellor tell us why large corporations such as Amazon, which made billions during the pandemic, are not subject to this windfall tax? If they were, more help could be given to more people.

Taxes on Motor Fuel

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Monday 23rd May 2022 Westminster Hall

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

This petition on taxing motor fuel is not just about motor fuel. Ultimately, it is about the whole cost of living crisis and what levers the UK Government can pull to address it, if they choose to do so.

Fuel costs have spiralled so much in recent months that prices have been breaking records. Indeed, petrol prices have broken records on 26 separate days in 2022. Fuel duty has remained at around 50p a litre for the past 12 years, but consumers also pay 20% VAT on the total cost of their fuel at the petrol pump. That means that consumers pay tax—VAT—on fuel duty, so they currently pay over 80p in tax on every litre that they buy. As I say, they are paying a tax on the tax. That is before the costs of extraction, purchase, shipment and forecourt sales are added. The Treasury is raking in 20% of the total cost at the forecourt, with fuel price increases bringing in additional VAT, amounting to billions of pounds, all of which is helping to accelerate inflation. As the cost of fuel has risen, so has the VAT being raked in by the Treasury—vast additional revenue for the Chancellor.

There was an attempt at providing some relief for motorists and consumers when the Chancellor announced a 5p cut in fuel duty in his spring statement. However, as we all know, that measure was woefully inadequate. We know that, in theory, a duty cut benefits all drivers, but as we have heard, this cut is not always passed on to drivers. Indeed, the RAC has shown that that seemed to be the case after the spring statement. In any case, it is clear that even if the 5p cut in duty was passed on, it would simply be swallowed up by spiralling prices—as indeed it was—so its effect would never be truly and meaningfully felt by those it was intended to help.

A cut in VAT would be much more effective, because VAT is charged on the total cost of the petrol or diesel, so even if the price rises, the amount of VAT would be reduced. That would be a much more impactful measure to try to help motorists and consumers with spiralling costs.

The situation with inflation is now so serious that a very serious measure to ease inflationary pressures must be implemented. I contend that halving VAT on fuel until the cost of living crisis is under better control is now essential and overdue. The eye-watering cost of fuel does not just hurt motorists—although it certainly does that, as the cost of filling up the family car becomes more and more of a struggle. It also drives up the cost of every good and service that we buy. Every single item on our supermarket shelves has been delivered by haulage companies for at least part if not all of its journey to its destination. When their fuel costs rise, so too does the cost of those goods.

Like others, I have been urging the Chancellor for months to make a serious and meaningful cut to VAT on fuel in order to better control inflation across the economy, because fuel costs impact every area of our economy. Anyone can see that cutting VAT on fuel is good for everyone across the UK. It will ease pressure on the incomes of families as they try to maintain their family car, it will ease pressure on the cost of doing business, and it will keep the price of our groceries and other goods down. Everyone will benefit and inflationary pressures will ease. That will benefit the whole economy and will more than make up for the loss of VAT receipts to the Treasury from such a cut. This is a no-brainer: it is a win-win for the economy, consumers and business.

We are living through unprecedented times, and bold action and brave hearts are needed. The dithering and delay must end. Halving VAT on fuel will have an immediate and positive impact. I hope the Minister will tell us that she will be happy to go back to the Chancellor and his Cabinet colleagues and tell them to get on with this and cut VAT on fuel significantly, because it is long past time.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Murray (Ealing North) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Ms Elliot, for the chance to respond to the debate on behalf of the Opposition. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) on leading this important debate on the e-petition relating to taxes on motor fuel. As she set out, the fact that it has been signed by over 100,000 people underlines what we all know from our constituents: the rising cost of fuel is a pressing and urgent part of the wider cost of living crisis that is hitting people across the country.

With inflation at its highest in decades, the cost of living crisis is causing immense hardship and driving households into poverty. At the same time, this Government are alone in making us the only G7 country to be raising taxes on working people at such a difficult time. In that context, the rise in the price of fuel is being felt particularly acutely. The Office for National Statistics has published data on fuel prices that confirms what everyone knows when filling up their cars: there has been a consistent weekly increase in price since the start of 2022, with the highest rises occurring since March. As an RAC spokesperson recently said:

“March 2022 will go down in the history books as one of the worst months ever when it comes to pump prices… To describe the current situation facing drivers at the forecourt as ‘bleak’ is therefore something of an understatement.”

[Patricia Gibson]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about the impact that prices are having across the whole of the UK. Every community and constituency is affected. Does he share my disappointment that there are no Tory speakers? No Tory MPs appear concerned enough to have participated in this debate.

[James Murray]

Like the hon. Member, I find it very depressing to see no Conservative Back-Bench Members apparently interested in this debate. However, if the best many of them can come up with is to suggest people buy value brands or get a different job, I am not surprised they have little to add to the debate.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Gower said, the Petitions Committee’s survey to the respondents of the e-petition has helped bring to life some of the real impacts that fuel price rises are having on the lives of people across the country. Those responses include the supply teacher who explained the necessity of reducing working hours due to the cost of driving to different schools. An NHS worker reported the challenge of transporting her disabled children to the special educational needs school, and having to cut down on food in order to balance the cost of fuel. A carer reported being unable to attend appointments to give essential care to vulnerable people; a taxi driver was unable to make ends meet. Parents reported having to remove their children from nursery as the cost has become unsustainable, and people have been unable to visit elderly relatives.

Fuel prices have been hitting people across the board. At the same time, businesses have reported that the increased fuel costs have made it more challenging to recover from the losses suffered during the pandemic. Respondents felt that the temporary 5p reduction in fuel duty did not go anywhere near far enough—something that we have heard from many Members today—and was ineffective, as the saving was quickly cancelled out by rising prices. When it comes to the price of fuel, respondents confirmed what we had all concluded about the Government’s actions so far. Following the spring statement and the announcement of a temporary 5p per litre cut in fuel duty, the Chancellor was quick to arrange a glossy photoshoot in a borrowed car at a petrol station forecourt, but the reality is that the 5p cut in fuel duty has been quickly eclipsed by the rapid rise in the overall price of fuel.

As we know and as other hon. Members have said, fuel prices are just one of many pressures hitting people’s lives, and the Government’s response to the cost of living crisis has fallen woefully short of what is needed. People across the UK are seeing the biggest squeeze on their finances in a generation, while at the same time, oil and gas producers’ profits have shot up. As has been widely reported, BP’s chief financial officer said that

“we’re getting more cash than we know what to do with”,

while its chief executive has said that the current rising prices are making BP a “cash machine.” In the first three months of 2022, 28 of the largest oil and gas producers made close to $100 billion in combined profits, with Shell, for instance, making over $9 billion—almost three times what it made in the same period last year.

Faced with oil and gas producers receiving such bumper profits while everyone else suffers the cost of soaring energy bills, Labour has called on the Government to implement a simple, effective and fair solution: levy a windfall tax on oil and gas producers’ profits to help cut people’s bills by up to £600. People need that help, as they are left with no other options. Martin Lewis, the founder of MoneySavingExpert, has said that he no longer has any ideas for how people can save money to cope with the massive surge in the cost of living.

The fact that people are struggling and do not know what to do makes it incredible that the Government have twice voted against Labour’s plans to address this cost of living crisis by imposing a windfall tax on oil and gas producers’ profits. We are left wondering what on earth their objection is, when consensus seems to be growing by the day that a windfall tax is the right thing to do. Current Treasury Ministers may not know what to do, but the previous Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), has said that the arguments against a windfall tax

“at present are very weak.”

He added that Margaret Thatcher would have backed a windfall tax on energy companies.

Of course, in recent weeks, Government Ministers have taken a wide range of positions. We have heard opposition to the plan for a windfall tax from the Health Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, the Business Secretary, the Northern Ireland Secretary, the Attorney General, the Minister for Brexit Opportunities and the Deputy Prime Minister, and yet the latest position from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is that

“all options are on the table.”

Every day of delay hurts people across the country. When the Minister responds, I urge her to give some indication of when the inevitable U-turn will happen and the Government will implement a windfall tax. We have been calling for this for months, and we are all waiting for the Government to finally do the right thing.

The Treasury’s failure to act exposes a deeper failing at the heart of Government. While we have been pressing the idea of a costed and effective plan to levy a windfall tax to cut energy bills, the Government are out of ideas and out of touch when it comes to helping people with the hardship they face. The Chancellor needs to get a grip on this situation, so when the Minister responds, I again urge her not to add to the delay, but to simply tell us when the Government will go ahead with the windfall tax that we all know is needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Helen Whately]

That is not what I just said; I said that if we particularly focused on reducing VAT on fuel, that would not result in a saving to many businesses, because businesses can claim back VAT. By cutting fuel duty, we are benefiting businesses and the whole supply chain, as well as consumers who buy fuel.

[Patricia Gibson]

The Minister, if I understand her correctly, is saying that cutting VAT will not necessarily help business, and that the best way to help them would be by cutting fuel duty. From what the Minister said, I do not know what the answer is. Perhaps the answer is to cut VAT to help consumers, and to put a substantial cut on fuel duty to help reignite the economy, reduce the cost of living and control inflation.

[Helen Whately]

That goes a long way into the broader economic questions about the right way to deal with the crisis we are in, and how we raise money if we are to make further tax cuts to provide further support to consumers. As I have mentioned, and as I am sure the hon. Lady well knows, we have already put in support worth £22 billion to help people across the country with the cost of living. That includes £9 billion to help people with energy bills—some of that will be through council tax rebates of £150—and that money is already going into many people’s pockets. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady shakes her head and says that that is not enough, but the Chancellor has been clear that he stands ready to do more. We do not yet know what the retail cost of fuel will be in the autumn, and we are absolutely concerned about the rising costs to people. We have already taken steps, and that is what we are talking about today.

I want to come back to VAT, because it has been suggested that the Treasury might be getting some kind of VAT windfall. Overall, the Office for Budget Responsibility is forecasting that VAT receipts will now be lower than it had expected in the autumn. There is not some great surge in VAT coming through to the Treasury.

Cost of Living Increases

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

What would you cut?

[Ian Murray]

I hear hon. Members behind me asking from a sedentary position what we would cut—which is surely the same budget dilemma facing the Government that they have just been arguing about. What I would do is this. I would not spend money on an independence referendum; I would feed hungry Scottish children instead. Such a move, Mr Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] SNP Members seem to have woken up. It tells you all you need to know about how Scottish politics works that when this Government are in total disarray, rather than turning their guns on them, they are turning them on the Labour party. Such a move to double the Scottish child payment—[Interruption.] “Where would you get the money from?”, they keep shouting. Such a move would take 80,000 Scottish children out of poverty overnight, so let us find the money indeed, with all these vanity projects and the wastage we have seen in Scotland.

Household Energy Bills: VAT

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alan Brown]

Let me come to the next part of my speech, which will address that point. I am absolutely incredulous that, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out, Labour MPs were whipped to vote for that Bill, which will add billions of pounds to electricity bills. The Bill’s impact assessment, published by Ministers, shows an upper estimate of £63 billion for the capital costs and financing of a new nuclear power station. That is to be paid for by bill payers. That is not low cost: it is a burden of something like £40 billion to £60 billion added to our energy bills—and Labour voted for it. How can Labour MPs talk about lowering energy bills when they just voted to add £50 billion to our bills as bill payers? It is nonsensical and they need to rethink their nuclear policy rapidly.

On nuclear, the Chancellor allocated £1.7 billion for the development of Sizewell C to the final investment stage. That sum of money could pay for the Coire Glas pumped hydro storage scheme in Scotland, as well as the Cruachan dam extension. Those projects could be delivered quicker than Sizewell, they do not come with a £50 billion capital finance burden, and further investment in pumped hydro storage would save £700 million per year in operational costs compared with a reliance on nuclear.

Greater imagination is required in energy policy. The policies from both major UK parties sum up Scotland’s place in the Union: the Scottish CCS project has been relegated to reserve status; Scottish bill payers are having to pay for a new nuclear power station; and we are stuck paying the highest grid charges in Europe, which not only disadvantages Scottish renewable projects but means higher bills for everybody across Great Britain. Meanwhile, the Scottish oil and gas industry is asked to pay to mitigate high fuel bills throughout the UK. What about demanding that at least some of the additional oil and gas revenues are released to match fund the Scottish Government’s £500 just transition fund for the north-east of Scotland?

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

The Business Minister said it was a “mistake” for the UK Government to withdraw support for the UK’s gas storage site in 2017. That site provided 70% of UK storage capacity and helped to protect consumers from price shocks; we now have some of the lowest gas-storage capacity in Europe. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Minister should have acknowledged that and apologised when he was on his feet?

[Alan Brown]

I agree wholeheartedly. It is interesting that the Government are now revisiting the Rough gas-storage scheme. Yes, there has been a global impact on wholesale prices and prices would have risen, but it is clear that storage facilities would help to provide a buffer for the UK in times of need.



If we look at the history of North sea exploration, Scotland has paid £375 billion of oil and gas revenues to the Exchequer, which has been squandered by successive UK Governments. For all these years, the SNP has called for an oil and gas fund to be set up, which could have been utilised in this time of need. Norway did not start its oil fund until 1990, yet it is already the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. It grew by £90 billion during 2020—one of the covid years—and now has assets worth well over $1 trillion. That is the kind of long-term strategic planning that has been missing in the UK but that would create a buffer when required.

Downing Street Christmas Parties Investigation

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Thursday 9th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

The nature of any gathering is, as I have repeatedly said, going to be a matter for the investigation.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

Like most ordinary people, I have no idea what the difference is between a gathering and a party, and I note that the Minister has been unable to clarify that. Given the complete absence of leadership that we have witnessed, does he share my wider concern that as we enter a new wave of the pandemic, these unsavoury revelations have seriously and gravely undermined public compliance with the rules, which will cost lives? In view of that, why should anyone believe a single word the Prime Minister says?

[Michael Ellis]

The Prime Minister has initiated an investigation by the Cabinet Secretary and it is a matter now for the Cabinet Secretary to delve into. He will, of course, have all the authority commensurate with that office to seek to discuss the matter with individuals and to source any documents or anything else he may need. He will have that authority, so it is now a matter for him.

Black Friday: Financial Products

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Westminster Hall

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

I begin by paying tribute to the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) for bringing the debate and for all her work in this area. As the Christmas shopping season gets fully under way, it is right that we debate debt, how consumers require protection in a fully regulated credit market, and the responsibility of Government to ensure that that is the case. The high cost of some credit options, especially buy now, pay later deals, is already causing untold misery for millions of consumers. So far this year, shoppers have racked up more than £4 billion of outstanding debt, averaging £538 for each user. Research shows that 10% of shoppers plan to use buy now, pay later options this Christmas. I am sure that option can be helpful for some people, to spread the cost of significant purchases, but it can also facilitate the building of unsustainable debt.

In order to protect consumers, the sector needs to be properly regulated. An exemption in the law as its stands means that these payment plans are not treated in the same way as traditional credit agreements, so they are not regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Therefore, as the Woolard review found earlier this year, many consumers do not see buy now, pay later options as a form of credit, so they do not consider arrangements as carefully as they might otherwise do. It is worth noting that the sector was comparatively small, but the value of transactions nearly quadrupled between January and December last year, to £2.7 billion. It is easy to understand why the Woolard review concluded that there is an urgent need to regulate all these products.

The Government’s consultation into the regulation of the buy now, pay later market will close in January. It must result in robust regulation of the sector, which must be brought into line with the regulation of other areas of the credit market, with interest at least no higher than that for pay-day loans, credit cards or overdrafts. It should also require credit checks similar to those for other credit products. It is appropriate to think about such things as we approach Black Friday and Cyber Monday, which is the commercial answer online to in-store shopping.

Recent research by the consumer organisation Which? is very worrying. It reveals that a strikingly high number of shoppers feel rushed into making Black Friday purchases. Many live to regret it, using credit or borrowing to make purchases that they could otherwise not afford. That must be seen against the background of the way that Black Friday is marketed, using the threat of regret, with banners such as “Hurry!”, “Don’t miss out!” and “Last chance!” plastered around these so-called deals. Shoppers who buy on credit pay extra for their purchases, regardless of how good the deal might look, once the extra cost of credit is factored in, which can build from month to month.

It is also worth noting that the seductive techniques used to encourage shoppers to splurge on Black Friday belie the fact that Black Friday deals are not always the best of the year. In fact, many products can be found cheaper in the months before and after November. According to Which?, that is all hidden behind the marketing used for Black Friday.

As we approach Christmas and talk about debt, there are some who say—and I have heard them—that people should live within their means. It is easy for those who are relatively well off to lecture those who do not have very much about living within their means. It is completely understandable that people, despite being financially pressured, still want to buy presents for their children at Christmas—of course they do. If they do, the Government have a duty to ensure that all consumers are buying in a fully regulated credit market, with all the protection they need, should they find themselves overwhelmed with debt. The Government have a duty to ensure that all aspects of the credit market are fully regulated and fit for purpose.

I need to say at this juncture that many families are not forced into debt because of Christmas shopping, but because their everyday household budgets are being squeezed more tightly every single day. We must not assume that unsustainable debt is down to non-essential purchases. Many households are falling into debt in order to pay for essentials, such as the gas bill or groceries. That applies not just to those who are unemployed but to that shameful phenomenon: the working poor. Those are people who go out to work every day to provide for their families but simply do not earn enough to make ends meet and pay for essentials, having been met with a cut of more than £1,000 a year in universal credit.

We are sitting on a debt time bomb, and it is not due to profligacy; it is because so many people have suffered an income shock through no fault of their own. Sadly, for those people, the idea of levelling up sounds very hollow as they face the destructive misery of debt, which every day threatens to engulf them. The cost of living is rising, and that is throwing many people into hardship, including many people who were always able to manage in the past. The UK household debt crisis is not going away; it is actually getting worse.

The Government must therefore ensure that the buy now, pay later market, which we have heard so much about today, including the difficulties with it, is subject to the robust regulation that consumers have a right to expect. That process must be expedited so that next year, at the next Black Friday, anyone who turns to any kind of credit can do so with much more protection and confidence than they are currently able to. Some people have estimated that the sector may not be properly regulated until as late as 2023. That prospect is deeply concerning, so I hope that the Minister will today commit to expediting regulation as soon as possible and as a matter of priority, so that we can save yet more people from experiencing the severe misery of debt without the protection that they should be entitled to expect.

Northern Ireland Protocol: EU Negotiations

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Ellis]

Article 16 is designed to alleviate problems, not cause them. It is a mechanism that was written in with the consent of both parties, so that it could alleviate and act as a safeguard. Threats that are emanating from other quarters about pulling out of the TCA and the like would, of course, do the exact opposite. They would cause disruption and that is not in the interests of the people of the province of Northern Ireland. It is this side that is seeking a negotiated preferential solution.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

The Minister must know that the Tories are playing with fire. Threatening not to implement a deal signed 11 months ago would be outrageous. What does the Minister believe the people of Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK have to gain by showing the UK clearly to be an untrustworthy and dishonest negotiating partner while it simultaneously seeks to secure international trade deals?

[Michael Ellis]

We are not seeking to secure international trade deals; we are securing international trade deals. We have secured more than 60 of them so far with countries all around the world. We are a trading nation. We enjoy trading with others and we always have done. That is what we will continue to do. But I do need to repeat: article 16 is not a threat; it is a part of the agreement that was signed between the parties. It is available and ready to use.

Access to Cash

Patricia Gibson Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2021 Westminster Hall

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

I begin by thanking the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) for bringing this debate forward. I share her sincere and passionately held views on the issue; I and many other Members have participated in access to cash debates on umpteen occasions. Despite the huge consensus on what we need to do and what the problems are, I do not see much change, but we all agree that we need direct Government intervention to halt the decline of cash and to protect access to cash for our communities. I echo the words of the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard): we need to just “get on with it”.

The access to cash Bill will be an important piece of legislation, but we need to see it. Covid has placed our cash infrastructure in an even more precarious situation. We need clear protections for the future of cash payments which, as we have heard, are so important to so many people, including those who simply do not have the option to pay by card and those who simply want to pay by cash for budgeting or other reasons. As my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde (Ronnie Cowan) reminded us, more than 5 million people still rely on cash, and that must not be forgotten. Cash transactions are very important for many people, and will remain so for considerable time to come. We have heard as much from every single Member who has spoken today.

Alongside that is the loss of free-to-use ATM cash withdrawals. We know that withdrawals from cash machines dropped significantly at the height of the covid pandemic. My fear, which I know is shared by Members around the Chamber, is that that will feed further closures of free cash machines across our communities. Increasingly, ATMs are charging for access to cash, and I am afraid that the situation is becoming normalised.

[Margaret Ferrier]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Patricia Gibson]

I just want to make this point. To help address the situation, we need to make sure that banks pay their fair share so that their customers can get free access to cash. By cutting the interchange fee, banks have saved £120 million, but the financial brunt is being borne by those who live in less affluent communities. That is a disgrace. The more affluent the area in which someone lives, the less likely that they will be required to access their own cash through an ATM. That is unjustifiable by whatever measure we care to use. It is another example of banks expecting others to pay for the so-called service that they want to provide. They do not properly renumerate post offices for taking over basic banking, which they have abandoned in so many of our communities, nor do they properly renumerate the ATM providers.

A pattern is emerging and the banks need to explain themselves. It seems to me that they are simply not fulfilling any social obligation or any duty of care either to those to whom they expect to provide a service or to those that provide that service on their behalf. If the access to cash Bill is to make any real difference, it must hold them to account for their responsibilities.

Of course, it is welcome that the Financial Conduct Authority is to oversee access to cash and provide analysis of what needs to be done where in order to support it. The issue has become more critical because banks have left gaps in our provision. As a result, our sub-postmasters need more financial support. Banks need to stop taking them for granted, given the essential role that they play in our communities, doing the job that banks are no longer interested in doing. It is worth remembering that throughout the pandemic, post offices continued to serve our communities and we relied on them then, as we do now. Many banks closed their doors during the pandemic. So much is expected of our post offices, but sub-postmasters are leaving the service because they are under so much financial pressure. Many are simply shutting up shop, as it is much more challenging to make a living now.

Sadly, post offices have been systematically run down over the years by successive Governments. I remember the 2000s, when the previous Labour Government stripped post offices of many of their functions. Then, in 2008 it was announced that 2,500 small and rural post offices would have to close, with Scotland disproportionately hit with 600 closures, six of which were in my constituency of North Ayrshire and Arran. Since then there have been so many bank closures that seven towns in my constituency—Kilbirnie, Kilwinning, West Kilbride, Stevenston, Ardrossan, Dalry and Beith—have no bank at all.

Now we have an access to cash crisis, with sub-postmasters expected to do so much of the heavy lifting without being properly paid to do so. The threats to our cash infrastructure, with the banks abandoning our towns, with sub-postmasters under intolerable financial pressure, with free access to cash being increasingly difficult to find and with many being increasingly locked out of paying by cash, mean that urgent action is needed if we are to protect our financial infrastructure and ensure that we have a society where financial inclusion matters.

The situation is critical, and the contents of the access to cash Bill will be the crossroads where the Government have a real opportunity to step in to do something to stop the decline. I think we can all agree on what needs to be done, but we need to start with the banks and their responsibility to communities and consumers. I look forward to the Minister’s telling us more today about the meaningful actions he expects the access to cash Bill to provide and when we can get sight of it. The future of our financial infrastructure depends on that Bill, so its content will determine the future of cash.