Digital Democracy Commission

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2016 Westminster Hall

[Meg Hillier]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. These are all issues that we need to debate and discuss if we are going to make any progress. I hope that, at the end of this debate, we will get some assurance from the Deputy Leader of the House that the matter will be taken seriously and that further work will be done.

As I said, a vote takes about 15 minutes in total—the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion has also done her maths. In the previous Session of Parliament, there were 544 Divisions in the Commons. Even if three minutes had been saved on each one—a modest improvement on our current practice—it would have meant a time saving of up to 27 hours for each MP. I hope we would have used that time productively; others may want to comment on that. That just goes to show that an awful lot of time is spent on something that could be done more quickly. We have also recently had experiments with iPads. They certainly speed up digital recording, as the hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) indicated, but there are still issues with human error and accuracy.

The record of votes is important. In the modern age, it is ludicrous that people have to wait several hours to find out how their Member of Parliament voted on an issue. As the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said, other things are not recorded. People get confused about what was an abstention and ask, “Was someone not there?” We should be able to record if someone is absent, for instance, because they are on maternity leave, or absent because they are sick or because they chose to abstain. That is common sense, one would think.

Clearly, any new approach will have problems, so it is worth teasing out what some of those are in the hope that they will be openly discussed and resolved. MPs could lose their smartcards, if that system is the one implemented, which may mean that fingerprints could be a preferred method. MPs could pass their cards to the party Whip or other MPs who could impersonate them or vote in their place, so we would need a system for verification. Verification currently allows for those who are on the premises but unable to vote in person to be nodded through by the Whips. I voted that way a number of times after my youngest daughter was born. The Whips nodded me through, but only after an Opposition Whip was satisfied that I was present, so we have a very crude way of verifying now. I think that could have been done differently and, certainly, we could look to improve it.

The cost of upgrading the system is not to be sniffed at. On Monday, the commission had reports from Officers of the House that it could cost more than £500,000 over the next three or four years, if decisions were made quickly. However, the long-term benefit could justify the one-off cost. Restoration and renewal of this Parliament provides a big opportunity to modernise this core activity of MPs.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate and apologise that I cannot stay until the very end. On time-saving, time represents cost—it is not just about time for MPs, but for staff and security, especially when Divisions go on late into the evening. The costs involved in a one-off cost would surely be offset by the time saved.

[Meg Hillier]

Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about time-saving, because clearly, some votes are consequential on other votes, so there is always going to be a time when we may have to wait for the result of a vote before we can vote again. However, sometimes, as with deferred Divisions, a number of votes could be carried out simultaneously, whereas currently we have to queue for separate 15-minute time periods to go through the Lobby.

It is worth stressing, as the hon. Member for Torbay said and as we heard from many Members—this is why we did not go for distant, remote electronic voting as a recommendation—that the ability to work closely and talk to Members on a daily basis is a very big part of the work of this House. It is important that that spirit is seriously considered in any change. However, I am directly asking the Deputy Leader of the House to take this matter very seriously and to ensure that the Government do not knock it into the long grass. It is a matter for the House. She is our champion, along with the Leader of the House, to Government. I hope she takes this seriously, because we need a green light to investigate change.

From talking to officials in the House, I know that, at the moment, there is a lot of enthusiasm for embracing the commission’s recommendations. A number can take place without interference—dare I say it?—from hon. Members. However, this is one where we really need to be engaged and I hope that today, the Deputy Leader of the House will set out a clear timetable on the measure and commit to serious consideration of its potential benefits and to reporting back to the House on that progress.

We can look at other examples in other Parliaments. Egypt, only two weeks ago, introduced an electronic voting system. It has had some problems with impersonation, so that is a lesson to be learnt. In Romania, politicians have 10 seconds to vote once they have initiated the smartcard voting system. In the United States, electronic voting was introduced to Congress in 1973. Members there vote by inserting their voting card into an electronic dock and by pressing the appropriate button. In South Korea, they vote electronically and can change their vote as they go, so there are very important issues that we might want to discuss about the change of culture that this would bring. Of course, as hon. Members have highlighted, in the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the European Parliament, voting is done electronically. It is not a new phenomenon, and we need to ensure that it is properly embraced.

In my lifetime, Parliament has evolved very slightly to reflect technological change. Voice recording was introduced in 1978, when I was a schoolgirl. In 1989, the Chamber was first televised, and only last year, a low-level camera was installed—I was a student in 1989, and I hope that, before I am a grandmother, we might have considered electronic voting, bringing Parliament into the 21st century.

Business of the House

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I know my hon. Friend feels very strongly about this issue, and I would simply assure him that if any proposals are brought forward, the House will be properly informed and all appropriate information will be provided.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

After the Legislative Grand Committee on Tuesday, there were some rather forlorn-looking Clerks in the Division Lobbies packing away iPads that had not been used, having been specially set up to record English votes for English laws. Given that these tablet devices have been paid for and exist, why not put them to use to record all Divisions in the House as the first step towards a 21st-century system of electronic voting?

[Chris Grayling]

I think that is the intention. The House of Lords is already using iPads to record Divisions, and it seems to me entirely logical that we should do the same. The system is now in place for the double majority votes, and it is my hope and expectation that we will move to general recording in the very near future. There is no reason not to do that.

Strathclyde Review

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 17th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend expresses a sincerely held view and one which I know is shared by many in the House. The matter has been debated on many occasions. Right now, the important thing is to ensure that he has the final say. As a result of what is set out in the Strathclyde review, we will return to a situation in which he does indeed have that final say as the elected representative of his constituency.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

As people have been wishing the occupant of the Chair a happy Christmas, having been at the Star Wars movie last night I feel I should say, “May the force be with you.” Having watched the dark lords of the Sith at their nefarious business—I am not referring to the other place amending the Scotland Bill—may I ask the Leader of the House what impact the procedure that he is introducing today will have on the procedures for English votes for English laws that were introduced recently in this House?

[Chris Grayling]

If the hon. Gentleman went to both the Star Wars movie last night and the Scottish National party’s Christmas party, he is doing well to be here today. That is perhaps why he has a glass of water in his hand. The proposals will not change the EVEL procedures. If a matter is an English-only statutory instrument, it will be passed in the ways described in the EVEL process. What will change is not the process for EVEL, but the process for statutory instruments. Every statutory instrument would therefore operate in a different way in future, not just English-only ones, but all of them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Commons Chamber

The Leader of the House was asked—

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

10. What progress the Government are making on reforming the estimates process.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Grayling)]

This matter is currently being considered by the Procedure Committee, and I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will wish to communicate his views to its members.

[Patrick Grady]

We were told during the debates on English votes for English laws that there would be opportunities to debate and amend provisions relating to Barnett consequentials during the estimates process. Given that the Chancellor has cut the Scottish Government’s revenue budget by 5.7% over the next four years, when in the estimates process will we have an opportunity to debate, amend and vote on that?

[Chris Grayling]

The House can of course vote on the estimates each year. However, if the hon. Gentleman is looking to have an extended debate, it is within the gift of this House to change its procedures in order to ensure that he has the ability to contribute and vote in the way he wishes.

Business of the House

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

This is a matter that has been considered by the Administration Committee. A decision was taken, rightly or wrongly, to put in place the current policy as my hon. Friend describes it. I suggest that he writes to our hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), who chairs that Committee, to make those points. This is a matter for individual employers to decide. It is a matter of some debate and controversy, but I have no doubt that if he writes to the Chair of that Committee, his views will be carefully considered.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Leader of the House has stressed the importance of International Development questions a couple of times this morning, so will he give further consideration to the point I put to him in the Procedure Committee? I suggested that every now and then we move International Development questions, and other departmental questions, from the slot immediately before Prime Minister’s questions so that they have a little longer and can take place in a slightly more considered atmosphere—perhaps the convivial atmosphere of a Thursday morning—instead of being drowned out immediately before Prime Minister’s questions, as often happens.

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Gentleman might not have heard me earlier, but in the 15 minutes of questions to the Leader of the House earlier this morning I asked whether it was really necessary to have that separate Question Time, and whether those questions could be merged with business questions to allow that slot to be used to extend the time available for other questions. [Interruption.] I have a lot of sympathy with what he suggests.

Commons Financial Privilege

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We have appointed a respected former Leader of the House of Lords, and a compatriot of the hon. Lady, to conduct a review, and I think that he will do an excellent job.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Yesterday the Chancellor said that the House of Lords has no mandate for tinkering with his tax credit changes, but, with 14% of the vote, it is his Government who have no mandate to introduce their vicious welfare reforms up in Scotland. After all the constitutional tinkering we have already had to introduce English votes for English laws, would not the solution to both constitutional conundrums be to abolish the House of Lords and replace it with an English Parliament?

[Chris Grayling]

The Scottish nationalists keep making that argument. Over the past few weeks, I have listened to them express fury about the introduction of EVEL because it gives them less say over matters that they say affect Scotland. But an English Parliament would give them no say, so their argument simply does not stack up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

It will of course be a matter for you, Mr Speaker, to decide which measures are subject to this process. It is, as I will tell the House this afternoon, my view that there are probably two or three remaining Bills in this Session that are likely to prompt you to issue a certification decision. All this, of course, is entirely academic until the House has decided whether to accept the Standing Orders.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

The Leader of the House mentioned the estimates process. Has he discussed with the Treasury the likely increased scrutiny of the estimates process as a result of the can of worms he is opening up with English votes for English laws? The Procedure Committee is very much looking forward to Treasury officials appearing before it. I wonder whether Treasury officials are looking forward to appearing.

[Chris Grayling]

Dare I say that it is Treasury questions next week and the hon. Gentleman is of course able to put that question to the Treasury?

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I agree that every piece of legislation brought before this House should be examined to determine whether it affects voters in Scotland. However, with the greatest respect, that should be a decision not for whoever occupies your office, Mr Speaker, but for the people who represent the voters of Scotland: Scottish Members of Parliament, either individually or collectively through the party system. We are the ones with the mandate from our constituents to represent their interests, and elements of that right are being taken away from us today.

I pay tribute to the work of the Procedure Committee, of which I am member. It was placed in an invidious position, with far too short a period of time for reflection, and with no indication from the Government that they were prepared to entertain any significant number of amendments or, better yet, to put the whole process on pause. The fact that the Committee was unable to reach a consensus should be a warning to the House about the longer-term consequences of these changes, because it is not just the Committee that was in a difficult position; you, Mr Speaker, are now holding an office that risks being politicised and subjected to much greater scrutiny and question and, as the Committee reports, is one to which eventual legal challenge cannot be ruled out.

The Government may be setting up a chain of events that quickly escalates out of its control. That is why I welcome the Procedure Committee’s decision to investigate the Estimates and Supply process in this House. The Leader of the House says that there are no Barnett consequentials, and I hope that his Treasury colleagues were listening, because I look forward to questioning them about their receptiveness to scrutiny of the Estimates and Supply process and tabling all kinds of exciting amendments in due course.

Then there is the question of perception. No matter how the Leader of the House tries to dress it up, and whatever assurances he tries to give, the fact remains that during the legislative consent stages, my SNP colleagues and I will be sat here on these Benches while other hon. Members walk through the Lobby to vote.

[Jake Berry]

The hon. Gentleman started by saying that the decision about whether something is an England-only matter should be made by Scottish MPs. Does he accept that the SNP’s decision to drop its self-denying ordinance on the foxhunting proposals—I supported that; I do not think we should bring foxhunting back—means that they cannot be trusted not to drop that convention, because they will take short-term political gain over principle—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am immensely grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Interventions from now on must be extremely brief.

[Patrick Grady]

We do not know whether the foxhunting Bill would have been certified even if it had come forward. We promised to be a progressive voice for our constituents, and my constituency inbox was full of people asking us to vote.

Voters in Scotland will be watching, as they have done assiduously since May. They will see us sitting on our hands in this Chamber while other Members vote, with the creation of a second class of Members of Parliament in this House: ironically, a class of MP told during the referendum that they should be leading the UK, not leaving it. Perhaps the Government simply do not care; perhaps they actually want us to leave.

Earlier today, my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) likened the Leader of the House to the movie character, Dr Evil, whose theme song was written by the band, They Might Be Giants. The lyrics go like this:

“When your name is Evil, that is good

Or so you think

But you’re so very wrong

It’s Evil

But being wrong is right

So then you're good again

Which is the evilest thing of all”.

If that sounds absurd, I mention it only because that absurdity applies equally to the EVEL that is being debated in the House today.

Human Rights (Joint Committee)

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)]

I wish to state how important this Committee is. At a time when this Government are thinking of reviewing the Human Rights Act 1998 as early as November, with no Green Paper or White Paper, the imperative must be to set up this Committee to examine the matter of human rights and the most fundamental Act protecting humans and their rights in this country and in Europe. This is a crucial time for the House to have a Select Committee on a major constitutional issue. If there are changes to be made to its make-up further down the line, so be it, but there should be no delay in establishing this very important Select Committee.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

rose—

[Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

I hope that when the Joint Committee on Human Rights does finally meet it will consider the European convention on human rights, protocol 1, article 3, which states:

“The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.”

Of course, the vast majority of legislators in this country—in this Parliament—are unelected; they are up the corridor in the House of Lords. It is therefore a complete disgrace and a total irony that the third largest party in this House is not to be represented on the Joint Committee on Human Rights. One day, a Government of this country are going to find themselves in the High Court or the Supreme Court across the road with democratic citizens rightly challenging the fact that they are not allowed to vote for the largest number of legislators in this Parliament. It is a total and utter democratic outrage.

[Mike Weir]

Does my hon. Friend not agree that it is even worse than that because, again, this Government have suggested that they will appoint a huge number of new peers to make sure they get their legislation through?

[Patrick Grady]

I totally agree with my hon. Friend. We heard the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) making a point of order earlier in the day about precisely that matter: that the House of Lords might choose to undermine or vote against the current Government’s policy. I do not know whether it was him or someone else, but it was suggested that the solution to that, rather than abolishing the House of Lords or electing Members of the House of Lords and giving it a mandate, was simply to create yet more peers to outnumber us even more. I am sure the irony was not lost on those of us who were sitting in the Royal Gallery yesterday: the question of where elected mandates come from.

As my colleagues have stated, the human rights framework is at the core of the Scotland Act 1998 and it is fundamental to the new democracy that exists north of the border. Given that the Government seem determined to undermine the Human Rights Act here in this Parliament, it is even more concerning that we are not being given a voice on the Joint Committee—they are refusing to give a voice to the third party. We have a democratic right, as democratically elected Members of this House, and a duty to look out for the human rights of our constituents. Tomorrow, the Government are going to force through Standing Orders that will further undermine our rights, and it raises the question: where is this respect agenda? Where is the respect for the decision that the people of Scotland made last year when they said to stay in the UK, for now.

[Tommy Sheppard]

Does my hon. Friend agree that another context to this debate is the recent discussion in Scotland? Scottish people who voted to remain part of the United Kingdom were given every assurance that Scotland would play a full role within that Union, but they now see not only no SNP representation, but no Scottish representation on this Joint Committee.

[Patrick Grady]

Absolutely. I completely agree with my hon. Friend. The Labour party could nominate its Member from Scotland for the Committee—perhaps even the Liberal Democrats could do so as well. The reality is that this matter is not simply about the third party, but about a complete lack of geographical representation, and the point that my hon. Friend makes is very well made.

If the Government are serious about the respect agenda and about respecting the decisions that have been made by the people in Scotland both in the referendum last year and in the election this year, I strongly encourage them to reconsider the decision that they are making tonight, to listen to the constructive suggestions that have been made and to bring this matter back when there is a decent proposal that represents and respects the views of the people of Scotland.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

This is a very important debate and it is good that we are having it. Human rights are incredibly important and this country led the world in 1950 in drawing up the European convention on human rights, which created the Council of Europe, and the Joint Committee on Human Rights is a direct child of that.

I hope the Government are listening, as some good points have been made. Those of us who take the Union very seriously want to ensure that the Scottish National party, as the properly elected representatives of the Scottish people—no one can deny that they are that—are given an absolute, complete and full role in our Parliament.

As I said earlier, I will take this matter back to the Procedure Committee. We should resolve it as quickly as possible. It has been a good debate and my personal view is that the SNP should be on this Committee. It would be very easy to resolve the issue. I do not want to repeat attacks on cronies and donors in the other place. I have never been a donor—I have no money—or a crony.

[Patrick Grady]

You will get there one day.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I wish I was a donor and a crony, because it sounds like a rather nice place to be.

Seriously, it would very easy to increase the Committee’s membership. I do not think for one moment that anyone would mind that. Without reducing the excellent contribution of highly skilled lawyers in the other place—people who have tremendous knowledge of human rights legislation— it would be perfectly possible to increase the size of this Committee and have a full role for the SNP.

Finally, this whole human rights thing is so important that the Government must take it very seriously, particularly in the light of what they want to do with the Human Rights Act, which I fully support. They have to show that they take this matter seriously and that they want to get the Committee set up quickly, and, if I may crave your indulgence for one second, Mr Speaker, they must establish the delegation on the Council of Europe as quickly as possible, because otherwise we are in danger of losing the plot there as well. I am sure that the Government are listening—they are, after all, a listening Government—and that this debate has had some effect, and in that sense, it is all to the positive.

Business of the House

Patrick Grady Excerpts

Thursday 17th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I know how strongly my hon. Friend feels about this issue. There will shortly be a debate on it, but I simply say to him that more than half the allocated time in this House is already beyond the control of Government—the Opposition days, the private Members’ Bill days, and Backbench Business Committee days. We already allocate more time than most other Parliaments to the will of Parliament, but the Government also have to timetable and get through their own business.

[Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)]

Five years ago today, Pope Benedict XVI made an historic address to both Houses of Parliament in Westminster Hall. It was the first state visit by a Pope to the United Kingdom, and of course it began with a joyful reception in Edinburgh and a mass in Glasgow. Many great occasions of state are commemorated with plaques on the floor of Westminster Hall. Can the Leader of the House advise on the process for deciding on the installation of such plaques and the appropriate route for making representations to those responsible?

[Chris Grayling]

That is an interesting idea and the hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. May I suggest he writes formally to the Commission and then it would be considered?