Loan Charge

Debate between Paul Scully and Sara Britcliffe

Thursday 18th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)]

This is such an important issue for our constituents and I am very grateful to the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) for bringing it to the House. It has been mentioned that, given the recent examples that have exposed excesses of power in public bodies, it is only right that the loan charge and the way it is infringing on the rights of individuals is debated in this House. One particular case in my constituency brought this issue to my attention, and it highlights several problems with the way HMRC has tried to combat disguised renumeration schemes through the loan charge.

The way in which HMRC is retrospectively trying to obtain income tax and national insurance contributions raises important questions. The first of them is that the law on tax should be knowable and accessible to the people to which it applies. Based on the case that I have seen in my constituency, that was clearly not the situation. Many individuals who worked for agencies simply did not know that their pay would one day be subject to a disputed tax argument with HMRC, because the loan charge did not exist or because they were mis-sold such schemes by hiring agencies. Added to this fundamental trespassing on the rights of individuals is the fact that we cannot continue with the situation whereby a public body is pursuing retrospective actions against our constituents with them having no right to due process.

[Paul Scully (Sutton and Cheam) (Con)]

First, I thank the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) for his kind words about my time as postal affairs Minister.

My hon. Friend is making the point that this is a really good example of why retrospective policy is not a good idea. There is the fact that HMRC needs to use its investigatory powers, which outstrip those of policemen, proportionately; the fact that it should be going after the practitioners and promoters of these schemes, which it can do under the Rating (Coronavirus) and Directors Disqualification (Dissolved Companies) Act 2021 that I passed a few years ago; and the fact that it should not be going after contractors, consultants and self-employed people who the Government and many Government institutions treat as tax evaders as the default, as was seen with the 3 million excluded during covid who felt they did not get the support that others did.

[Sara Britcliffe]

That brings me to one of my main points. These are ordinary workers. These are our constituents. They are not fat cats; they have not got offshore bank accounts. They are not like that. These are ordinary members of the public who desperately need our help.

That brings me on to another point, which is how HMRC is handling these cases. It is not unfair to say that it is hardly a lesson in how to handle dispute resolution or customer service. One of my constituents received a letter some four or five years ago telling them that HMRC was withdrawing the information notice it had sent in the post. As far as my constituent was concerned, that was the end of the matter and they could get on with their family life. There was no contact for a further three years, but now HMRC has informed my constituent that withdrawing an information notice is not the same as withdrawing its concerns and that, in any event, it is not aware of the reason for the withdrawal in the first place and it would like to revisit the matter. I say to Ministers that the situation is untenable. HMRC cannot have the power to suddenly request tens of thousands of pounds from individuals, appear to drop a case and then revive it on a whim, without any explanation at all. That is an exercise in excessive power by a public body.

We should be going after the disputed tax from those who promoted and operated the schemes and who made huge amounts of money doing so. I understand that might be more complex, but that should not be a barrier. We should be protecting ordinary workers from abuses of power and pursuing those opaque and monied bodies that sought to game the system. I will end on that note. I echo the point that these are ordinary people we are trying to assist. It is time that the Government acted.

Commercial Rent (Coronavirus) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Paul Scully and Sara Britcliffe

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th December 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Paul Scully]

Q In the last sitting, Melanie Leech expressed concern about having a system like this set up for small landlord and tenant issues, compared with some of the bigger and more complex ones. How do you think arbitration services could cater for both sides?

Lewis Johnston: I understand the intention is that it would be the simpler, perhaps smaller party cases going through to the scheme, and I think that is correct. Given that the emphasis is on simplicity, accessibility and managing the costs, any scheme that had to accommodate the intricate, large-scale cases would encounter some problems in terms of balancing the two. Again, I point to precedents with things like the business arbitration scheme. It is difficult at this point to assess exactly what the appropriate fee level would be, because you would have to properly assess exactly how much work will be involved in each case—obviously not until they had come through—but I think that in the simpler cases that could be set at a level that was affordable. As some of Melanie’s members had made clear, it needed to be at quite a modest level for it to be accessible to them.

In terms of how the arbitration bodies would manage a variation in the complexity of cases, even it was perhaps the smaller, more simpler end of the spectrum, there will still be variation. We would maintain—this would apply to other bodies as well—lists and databases of arbitrators who would be suitable. Based on the nature of the case that came through, there would be a shortlist drawn up based on who had the requisite skill sets to handle that case. The pool that we would draw from should be broad enough to be able to cater to different types of cases and different sectors and so on.

[Sara Britcliffe]

Q In the simple case that you talked about, from your perspective what is the likely cost of that, including the legal fees of the tenants and landlords?

Lewis Johnston: I would not want to commit to exactly what it would involve until we got to that stage, but I refer again to the precedent set by our own business arbitration service, which is designed to produce an award within 90 days. It is meant to be documents only, and that is £1,250 plus VAT per party. If it was a very straightforward case—if it was documents only and it followed the same processes—I imagine it could be in the same ballpark in terms of fee level. The best thing would be to have real clarity around what the fees were and how they apply to each case, and for there to be perhaps an assumption against having a hearing, and, if there was a hearing to be requested, very clear guidance on what fee that would entail. Perhaps for a half-day hearing, a certain level. For the business arbitration scheme, there is an option for that. It is £500 for a half-day hearing. Again, the assumption is that the cost could be fixed at those initial costs per party, and that a hearing would not be necessary. It would be documents only.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Paul Scully and Sara Britcliffe

Wednesday 11th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)]

T3. If schools and nurseries in Hyndburn are forced to close because of coronavirus, the burden of care will inevitably fall on women. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that they will be supported, especially if they end up losing money due to caring responsibilities?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

Schools and nurseries need to take the latest scientific advice, which at the moment is to stay open. Employees are entitled to take time off work to help someone who depends on them in an emergency, and that would apply to situations to do with coronavirus—for example, if they have to look after their children because the school is closed. There is no statutory right to pay for that time off, but some enlightened employers will pay.