Amendment of Standing Orders

Philip Hollobone Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Do not the facts paint a very different picture? In the first part of this Parliament, when the first Session ran for two years, there were not the requisite number of days for the Backbench Business Committee as there should have been. These assurances, I would suggest, are completely worthless.

[Mr Walker]

In an ideal world, the Standing Order would be amended to ensure—so that there was no wriggle room—that the additional days would be provided, but at this point I do not feel that the House is with me. This is an argument in gestation, and we need to allow it longer in the womb before it bursts forth in its full glory.

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[Mr Hollobone]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on her speech, which I am listening to closely. Let us say there were a change of Government, and a Labour Government decided to do the same thing and have an initial Session over two calendar years, the then Leader of the House and the then Chief Whip might not be as amenable as the current ones, and if so, without the change to the Standing Order, her words would ring very hollow indeed.

[Natascha Engel]

The hon. Gentleman was present when we produced our first provisional report, and all I would say is that one of our founding principles was that we should consider changing rules as and when we found a problem. There was not a problem in that first Session. However, if there is a problem in the future, I will personally lead the charge to ensure that we change the rules in order to accommodate and rectify it.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am sorry to disagree with the hon. Lady, but there was a problem. She had to get up on her feet every week during questions to the Leader of the House and beg for the Backbench Business Committee to be given time. In the end, that begging worked, but there was a problem and it was only her active intervention that solved it.

[Natascha Engel]

I would say that I was assertively, or even aggressively, demanding rather than begging. The Government eventually realised that they had no option but to pro rata the days, because there would have been uproar if they had not done so.

That brings me to my next point. As has been said, the right hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) mentioned his debate on assisted dying in his submission to the Procedure Committee. A full day of debate was allocated. It was considerably longer than an hour and a half, but it is true that there would have been another 20 minutes of debate and that votes would have taken place at the end of the day. However, that problem was identified only in retrospect, so even if we had had the power to timetable a business motion, it would not have happened on that day.

I am concerned that the proposal could have unintended consequences. One of the things that I have witnessed working really well in Back-Bench debates is that, at the moment, Back Benchers control their own time by having flexibility. We are therefore able to respond to events such as urgent questions, statements and whatever else might happen in the House on the day. Unlike in debates in Government time, it is extraordinary how Back Benchers are aware and respectful of any subsequent debates and of the number of Members who have put their name down to speak. When time limits are imposed, Members take less time in order to allow others into the debate and to shorten the debate in order to allow the following debate enough time to be heard. We all know that, if we started to timetable our debates, that would no longer happen. When debates are timetabled, we fill that time. We go to the limit of the time that is permitted. That would take away something from the Backbench Business Committee that is working extremely well and that makes Back-Bench debates flexible.

The proposals could make the situation worse, which is why I oppose them. At the same time, I welcome the spirit in which the report was written and in which the motions were tabled by the Procedure Committee. I take nothing away from any of that. I ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne to leave the door open so that, if I am wrong and there are problems of this nature in the future, we will be able to return to the Procedure Committee and ask it to table motions for us to help us out. I would appreciate that enormously. I am glad that he has said he will not press these matters to a vote today, because our two Committees work very well together to represent the best interests of the wide variety of Back Benchers in this House. I am therefore grateful that he has taken such a conciliatory attitude this evening.

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[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I congratulate the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), on the way in which he opened this debate, and the Chairman of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), on the way in which she responded.

If any Members present are regretting this debate taking place, they have only themselves to blame, because the House in its order of 26 November said that this motion should be debated for 90 minutes at the close of play today. Members should have objected to that at the time if they disagreed. The Chairman of the Procedure Committee says that he will not press the motion to a vote, so does he intend to withdraw it rather than just concede defeat to the Government amendments?

[Mr Walker]

My hon. Friend has identified my own weaknesses in matters of procedure. My understanding is that I will allow the Government amendments to go forward unchallenged, because Mr Speaker’s intention was to put the amendments to the House. If I am wrong about that, I apologise, and my hon. Friend has exposed me as a charlatan and a fraud as Chairman of the Procedure Committee.

[Mr Hollobone]

I know for a certain fact that my hon. Friend is not a charlatan and a fraud.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for an hon. Member to refer even to himself, who is by virtue an honourable Member, as a charlatan and a fraud?

[Mr Speaker]

It is not disorderly, but it is an example of unwarranted self-flagellation.

[Mr Hollobone]

I know for a certain fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne is not a charlatan and a fraud. I very much hope that he withdraws his motion, because then the Government amendments could not be passed.

[John Hemming]

The hon. Gentleman made the point just before accepting my intervention: if the motion is withdrawn, the Government amendments cannot be passed. However, then we would not have any changes at all. It is a question for the House as to whether the House divides; it is not a question for the Chairman of a particular Committee.

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[Mr Hollobone]

I strongly encourage my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne to withdraw his motion at the appropriate point and to come back to this matter on another day.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

As I understand it, Mr Speaker, for a motion to be withdrawn, it requires the consent of the whole House, and one Member opposing it can stop that withdrawal taking place. It is too late for my hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, to withdraw his motion.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman’s understanding is correct. The motion is now owned by the House, and withdrawal of it would require the assent of the House. It cannot be summarily withdrawn.

[Mr Hollobone]

In that case, I encourage my hon. Friend to seek the leave of the House to withdraw the motion. I gently say to him and to the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire that if ever the Procedure Committee and the Backbench Business Committee come to the Floor of the House divided on an issue, they are effectively allowing the Executive to walk all over both of them, which is a great shame as far as the whole House is concerned.

I disagree with the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire about her worries over the 35 days. I simply do not trust the Executive, whoever they might be, to honour their commitment to give 35 days to the Backbench Business Committee. There might be all sorts of excuses that a re-elected coalition Government, a majority Conservative Government or indeed a Labour Government might give to the House about not sticking to that ruling. In a Session longer than a calendar year, it would be very tempting, especially for an incoming Government, to seek not to give a pro rata adjustment to the Backbench Business Committee’s allocation of time.

We have not spoken very much about the Select Committee statements motion, but I have some concerns about how it has been drafted. It says in paragraph (1)(a) of the proposed Standing Order that

“the Backbench Business Committee may determine that a statement will be made on the publication of a select committee report or announcement of an inquiry.”

It does not make it clear that the Committee would do that only in response to a request from the relevant Select Committee. As I read that proposed Standing Order, the Backbench Business Committee could force a Select Committee to make a statement on the publication of one of its reports. I am sure that that is not the intention of the Backbench Business Committee for all the reasons that the hon. Lady outlined about its not seeking to become more powerful than it should be, but the way that the motion is drafted would give the Backbench Business Committee the power to do that, although I am sure it is not requesting it.

In paragraph (4) of the Select Committee statements motion, it says, in relation to the time given to such a statement, that

“no question”—

on the statement—

“shall be taken after the end of any period specified by the Backbench Business Committee or the Liaison Committee in its determination.”

I do not agree with that, Mr Speaker. When we have statements on the Floor of the House from Ministers, you, through your wisdom, decide how long that statement should run, and you do that by seeing how many Members of the House are standing to ask questions. Sometimes those statement do not include all the Members who want to ask questions; sometimes they run for a very long time indeed. The point is that the allocation of time is not specified beforehand. It is in your wisdom and at your discretion how long a statement should last. If, under the proposed procedure, the Backbench Business Committee allows a statement on a Select Committee publication to take place, either in this Chamber or in Westminster Hall, it should be up to Mr Speaker, the Deputy Speaker or the Chairman in Westminster Hall to decide how long that statement should run depending on the level of interest in it shown by those Members who are standing to ask questions. I am disappointed in the rather sloppy wording of the Select Committee statements motion. The point about how long statements should run has been missed, and I am very worried that if we have an extended Session of Parliament the Government will not necessarily provide the pro rata entitlement to the Backbench Business Committee that this House would like.

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[Mr Jenkin]

I suspect that if I moved on to the question of the introduction of a House business Committee, Mr Speaker, you might begin to twitch and suggest that I was straying beyond the remit of the motions before us. I see absolutely no sign that the Government will fulfil their commitment, written into the coalition agreement, that after three years, a House business Committee would be established. Perhaps the Front Benchers could say today when they plan to table motions to do that.

It is worth reminding hon. Members that we in this House have no power to lay a motion before the House to change Standing Orders. We are entirely dependent on the Front Benchers’ beneficence in tabling motions to make such changes. That power was lost much more recently than people imagine; I cannot remember the exact date, but it was long after the beginning of the timetabling of business at the time of the Home Rule debates in the 19th century.

[Mr Hollobone]

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. Indeed, item 21 in today’s Order Paper is a helpful list of adjournment dates for the House going all the way through to the end of 2014, but it is an item about which there is no debate allowed whatever. It has been put on the Order Paper by the Executive, and the House is not even allowed to debate it.

[Mr Jenkin]

I have some sympathy with the idea that we do not debate everything that is on the Order Paper, because there is so much on a modern Order Paper that we would be here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, if we did. However, it should be for this House to decide what is debated and what is important. It should not be stitched up between the two Front-Bench teams, or laid down by the Government of the day. We respect and fully understand the principle that any Government must be able to obtain their business, but the ability to manipulate the Order Paper in their interests is surely not right for a modern Parliament in a modern democracy in which people expect more accountability and more debate on important matters.

Finally, I counsel my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne, in whose name the motion stands, that he would be well within his rights to beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. The Backbench Business Committee will continue to sit in public regardless of whether or not a Standing Order requires it to do so. This exercise has therefore become rather otiose, because of the Government’s amendments. If he begs to ask leave to withdraw the motion, I think that he will be making the point that the Government have made this exercise rather pointless.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I rise to support the motion on Select Committee statements and to offer our support to the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), in relation to the amendments to the motion that was tabled by the Chair of the Procedure Committee, the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), which stand in the names of the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House.

I, too, pay tribute to the hon. Member for Broxbourne for opening the debate and explaining his thinking behind the motion. He is a treasured Member of the House and a staunch defender of Back-Bench Members’ rights. He is deeply respected by all Members. On this occasion, however, I am afraid that, despite his erudite explanation of the rationale behind his amendments, we are unable to support them in their entirety, for reasons I will lay before the House shortly.

Before that, I want to acknowledge the Backbench Business Committee, an innovation that arose from the Wright Committee reforms, which has enjoyed a great deal of success since its initiation in 2010. That success has been in no small part due to the tireless work of its Chair and her open-minded approach to the selection of topics to be debated.

Another success of the Wright reforms has been the election of members of Select Committees and their Chairs. There is no doubt that the work of Select Committees has been given more credibility as a consequence of those reforms. How often now do we see the broadcast media giving priority to the coverage of Select Committee hearings? Who can doubt that the Public Accounts Committee, under the steely leadership of my right hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge), is now seen as a really effective way of holding public services to account for the resources they spend on our behalf.

The changes to Standing Orders recommended in the motion are the next logical step in the process of improving the workings of the House and raising further the profile of the work of our Select Committees. There is no doubt that the present system of allowing Select Committee Chairs to make a statement to the House is cumbersome and that the proposed change to the Standing Orders will make it easier for Members of the House to draw out areas of interest in a Select Committee report by asking the relevant question, rather than by having to intervene. Interventions are good for the cut and thrust of a full-blooded debate, but in our view they are not the most appropriate mechanism for handling what is in effect a statement to the House by a Select Committee.

The proposed new Standing Order will also give the Backbench Business Committee discretion in allocating a specified period of time for a Select Committee statement. The same discretion will be made available to the Liaison Committee in relation to debates in Westminster Hall.

With regard to the amendments to the motion relating to Back-Bench business, we support the first change proposed by the hon. Member for Broxbourne, which would give the Backbench Business Committee the formal power to hear representations from Members of the House in public. My understanding is that that has become the norm. Indeed, I have been present when Members have made representations. I know, because I have seen it myself, that it really works, in the sense that it reflects entirely the slow but welcome progress to ever-greater transparency in this place. It would therefore be helpful to see that practice written into Standing Orders. However, we join the Chair of the Committee and the Leader of the House in opposing a formal writing into Standing Orders of the principle of extending the number of days made available for Back-Bench business when the parliamentary Session extends beyond the usual year. This did not prove to be an issue in the first Session of this Parliament, which went on for what seemed like an almost interminable two years. We agree that that is unlikely to occur again given the legislation on fixed-term Parliaments that is now on the statute book.

We disagree with the part of the motion that would give the Backbench Business Committee the power to table business motions governing Back-Bench business days. The Chair of the Backbench Business Committee believes that it is important that it should not have the power to table programme motions. Back-Bench business days have always been more flexible and the time has generally been split on the day depending on the number of speakers for debates. This means that Members regulate themselves and almost always have respectful regard for subsequent debates. Her fear, as she clearly articulated, is that if the Committee were to start programming, debates would fill the space they are allocated rather than the space they need.

[Mr Hollobone]

Does the hon. Lady appreciate the dichotomy in her argument in that she is in favour of flexibility with regard to debates on the Floor of the House but not with regard to how long statements should run in Back-Bench time?

[Angela Smith]

The Chair of the Backbench Business Committee pointed out that for the greater part of the time Back-Bench business works on a consensual basis. I think she would want that spirit to be reflected in future arrangements rather than having written into Standing Orders a procedure that is unwieldy and may, in effect, start to distort the nature of the business that takes place on these days, which are typically sitting Thursdays.

We agree with this way of continuing Back-Bench business and encourage Members of the House to support the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee and the amendments. Of course, it is up to right hon. and hon. Members to make up their own minds on these changes, but I hope they can be guided by the Committee on these important matters. I am pleased that the Chair of the Procedure Committee has acquiesced in that view. On that basis, I hope that the House will agree to allow the amendments to stand.