Northern Ireland
Richard Graham Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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Mr Baker
I am most grateful—although after this I will plunge further into my speech, because I want to conclude it. Our position is very clear that any change must come from the parties in Northern Ireland. That is not to say we are uninterested—I have personally been through an exercise of considering all the possible reforms that there could be. At the end of that lengthy exercise, I concluded that no plan for reform of the institutions and their operation would work if it was driven by yours truly. It is essential that this conversation comes from the parties in Northern Ireland. I do not doubt that we will wish to note and take interest in such a conversation, but it is for the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, who are well represented on the opposition Benches, to move such a conversation forward. That is not something that the UK Government will be driving forward. It is vital that the new Executive now have the space to get on with governing Northern Ireland and doing what is very much needed.
Richard Graham
I am grateful to the Minister. The hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) earlier described the statement as a “love letter to the DUP”, but I saw it more as a love letter to Northern Ireland, and the huge opportunities that can be seized from realising what he and his colleagues, working with all parties in Northern Ireland, have managed to pull together. Does he agree that an interesting statistic about Northern Ireland this year is the huge increase in the number of businesses registered there? I think it is up by 60% in the last year alone. Surely that is a great sign of the confidence that people and businesses now have in the opportunities in Northern Ireland.
Mr Baker
I certainly agree about the extraordinary opportunity before Northern Ireland.
The Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 are explicit that any change to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland would require the consent of a simple majority of its people. The UK Government are absolutely clear that there is no basis to suggest that at present a majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to separate from the UK. Our position is therefore straightforward: Northern Ireland has a bright and prosperous future within the Union, for as long as the people of Northern Ireland wish it. That position does not diminish the right of others to pursue through democratic and peaceful means their aspiration for other outcomes.
We all remain committed to building and strengthening the three sets of relationships at the heart of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. The restoration of the political institutions at Stormont will enable critical relationships across and between communities in Northern Ireland to be strengthened, with vital work on building reconciliation to be taken forward in the months and years ahead. There are new opportunities to strengthen co-operation in the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland from outside the EU. This co-operation does not threaten Northern Ireland’s constitutional status, but it can help to build economic prosperity and deliver vital investment in infrastructure. As a UK Government, we also recognise the need to invest in east-west relationships, not only within the United Kingdom, as with the new UK East-West Council, but through the other institutions, such as the British-Irish Council and the intergovernmental conference.
Northern Ireland Executive Formation
Richard Graham Excerpts(3 months, 1 week ago)
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Chris Heaton-Harris
On the second point, it is for the people of Ireland and Northern Ireland to decide their futures in that particular matter. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that there is a little way to go in this process before we have the First Minister and Deputy First Minister sitting, and this is an important part of that timetable, but we welcome that happening. He asked about all-Ireland institutions. This agreement means that those institutions set up by the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, such as the North South Ministerial Council, can function correctly, and it also sets up new east-west bodies to ensure that Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom is equally recognised and made stronger.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
May I join the shadow Secretary of State in hugely welcoming this great achievement by the Secretary of State, by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and by all the other party leaders with whom he successfully agreed to re-establish devolved Government at Stormont? As the son of a Northern Ireland Unionist family, I believe it will only be good for the stability and prosperity of Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. Can my right hon. Friend confirm when the internal market levy and the changes to tariffs on goods from countries with which the UK has a free trade agreement will come into place?
Chris Heaton-Harris
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words. The factually correct answer is probably that those measures will come into place when the legislation is passed through this place.
Draft Representation of the People (Franchise Amendment and Eligibility Review) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023
Richard Graham Excerpts(6 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Mr Baker
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. In the first place, I am grateful that our country has decided that we are on the moral high ground in giving those retained rights to EU citizens. I will certainly take up what he said in his intervention with my colleagues in the Foreign Office. He will understand that it is for them first and foremost to talk with European nations. He makes a good point; I will take that matter up with Foreign Office Ministers and write to him.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The impact assessment makes it clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay mentioned, the bilateral treaties at the moment are with four EU states—Poland, Spain, Luxembourg and Portugal. The line there is that the UK
“remains open to negotiating treaties with other EU Member States”.
Can my hon. Friend the Minister clarify whether we are proactively seeking that by approaching other EU states to see if they are interested in that reciprocity; whether we are open to approaches from them; or whether we have done our bit, got agreements from four of those countries and that is it?
Mr Baker
Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The best thing that I can do is ask Foreign Office Ministers to write to him setting out their plans. After all, it is their responsibility first and foremost; my responsibility is Northern Ireland. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not trespass on their responsibilities and commit. He makes a good point, and I think that Foreign Office Ministers will wish to assure him that they are reaching out.
The chief electoral officer has a legal duty to ensure that the electoral register remains accurate. The instrument requires the chief electoral officer, as registration officer for the whole of Northern Ireland, to conduct a one-time review to determine the eligibility of all registered EU citizens. That bespoke eligibility review is designed to be fair and transparent for review subjects, and to minimise burdens on the chief electoral officer. As far as possible, it has been based on and benchmarked against existing practice and processes. The processes for Northern Ireland contained in the instrument mirror those for Great Britain.
Initially, the chief electoral officer will use data already available to them to confirm an elector’s continued eligibility without the need for and elector to take any action. Where the chief electoral officer is unable to confirm eligibility using existing data, the instrument requires them to contact the elector to request the information necessary to determine eligibility. In the event of no response, the chief electoral officer must make at least three attempts to contact the elector in writing, and at least one attempt to contact the elector in person, before they determine them to be ineligible.
It is clearly important that EU citizens are aware whether they remain on the register. Consequently, the instrument prescribes that all those reviewed will be notified of the franchise change and the review outcome. In addition, the instrument prescribes the contents of all review communications to ensure clarity and consistency.
Where a person is deemed ineligible and removed from the register on the basis of non-response, they will be invited to reapply if they believe they are eligible to do so. We anticipate that the end-to-end review process will take up to three months to complete. The chief electoral officer, in common with registration officers in England, will have a nine-month implementation window, from 7 May 2024 to the 31 January 2025, to undertake the one-time review.
On completion of the review process, the Secretary of State will write to the chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland to request data relating to the operation of the review process. That is slightly different from the position in England and Wales, where registration officers will report to the Electoral Commission. The franchise change will apply only to polls that are non-devolved, and, for Northern Ireland, will cover local and Assembly elections.
Some changes needed to reflect the candidacy changes and their implementation for Northern Ireland were made in the Elections Act. In practice, candidacy processes at local and Assembly elections will not change significantly. I hope that, having set out the details and having committed to write in response to interventions from my hon. Friends, we can ensure that colleagues are satisfied with our commitment to reach out to other European nations. I look forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Putney.
Northern Ireland
Richard Graham Excerpts(1 year, 1 month ago)
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Chris Heaton-Harris
I will continue for a bit, if I may. I will give way in a moment.
We all believe, as democrats here, that in a democracy people should have a say over any change in the laws under which they live, but under the old protocol, that was not the case. Changes to laws were automatically imposed on Northern Ireland whether it wanted them or not, and, like many other Members, I as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland considered that to be an unacceptable state of affairs. The Stormont brake not only ends that situation, but ensures that changes made to rules and regulations have the consent of both communities, thus asserting a fundamental principle of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has made all this progress hugely possible through his hard work. Does he agree that wherever we are starting from, it is clear to everyone who compares the Northern Ireland protocol with the Windsor framework that good progress has been made, that the framework is an improvement, and that it is strongly welcomed by most of the communities in Northern Ireland, and for that reason we should support it today?
Chris Heaton-Harris
Yes, I do believe that, and I thank my hon. Friend for making the point.
Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021
Richard Graham Excerpts(3 years ago)
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Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The regulations are not just based on the false premise that they are a requirement of international law; they represent a grievous breach of the devolved settlement. For those reasons, and because I believe that the regulations do not reflect the will of the people of Northern Ireland, I cannot support them. We are told that the regulations are being introduced to satisfy the requirements of section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019, but to understand the constitutional problem that is section 9 it is necessary to appreciate that the case for the vote on 9 July 2019 was greatly strengthened by a claim that it is now clear was not true.
In urging the House to vote for the amendment that became section 9, its proponents suggested that it was required because we in Northern Ireland were in violation of our international human rights obligations. That was completely inaccurate. The CEDAW convention, which is international law and is supposed to define the terms of reference of the CEDAW committee, does not even mention abortion, let alone define a right to it. Moreover, the CEDAW committee is not a judicial body, and it does not have standing to read in a right to abortion, as demonstrated by Professor Mark Hill, QC.
While the Government were deafeningly silent on that point when it mattered during the debate on 9 July 2019, the explanatory memorandum to the regulations belatedly recognises that paragraphs 85 and 86 do not constitute international obligations—the very term that was used to describe them in July 2019. The document states:
“The section 26 power cannot be relied on by the Secretary of State to ensure that the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW Report are implemented. In particular, those recommendations are not binding and do not constitute international obligations.”
It could not be any plainer, so despite what has been claimed, it is clear that the regulations are not a requirement of international law.
The suggestion that the Government are compelled to act as a matter of domestic law is equally dubious. What exactly is required by virtue of section 9 is a matter of debate; that the Government have an overwhelming majority in the House of Commons is not. The Minister suggests that Parliament gives him no choice in the matter, as though Parliament cannot change an Act of Parliament that it introduced when there was no Assembly, now that the Northern Ireland Assembly has returned. I strongly disagree.
To consider the proper responsibility of the Government, as custodians of the Union, in relation to Northern Ireland, one must first remember that the legitimacy of section 9 and the regulation-making powers rests on a vote on 9 July 2019 on what was not just Northern-Ireland-only legislation, but legislation on a devolved matter, in relation to which 100% of the Northern Ireland MPs who take their seats voted no. Notwithstanding that, the radical and deeply controversial legislative change proposed in what became section 9 was imposed on Northern Ireland by the votes of MPs from the rest of the United Kingdom, none of whom had a mandate to represent Northern Ireland on the issue.
I do not question the fact that Parliament is legally entitled to legislate for Northern Ireland, notwithstanding the fact that certain powers are devolved to the Assembly, but I do question the wisdom of it, and the enduring damage that it will do to the devolved settlement. It opened the door to a regulation-making power, and in principle there is no limit on the number of times the Secretary of State could try to make section 9 regulations. We had one set last year; we have another set this year. All that, even though the Minister of Health in Northern Ireland has stated that there is no legal duty under the current regulations for his Department to commission abortion services.
Each time new section 9 regulations are introduced, they reopen the constitutional sore upon which they rest. Each time, with devolution restored, the powers are used, the Government send out a message that the Northern Ireland Assembly and our current constitutional arrangements are not fit for purpose. Do the Government have no idea how dangerous and how damaging such a message is in the current circumstances? It is also more serious in the sense that it jeopardises an important, distinctive of the part of the Union, which is Northern Ireland, and because we have developed, over more than 50 years, our own approach to valuing the unborn, choosing life and having distinctive life-affirming laws.
The Both Lives Matter “One Hundred Thousand” report, using robust statistical methods, has established that over 100,000 people were alive in Northern Ireland in 2017 who would not have been had the 1967 Act been embraced by the Province. Some people took exception to that and complained to the Advertising Standards Authority, but after a five-month investigation, involving leading statisticians, the Advertising Standards Authority rejected the complaint, concluding that 100,000 was a reasonable claim.
That is in stark contrast to the 9 million aborted here in GB—one baby every two minutes. By the time I finish my speech, another three lives will have been lost or ended. That might not matter very much to some in England, Scotland or Wales, but it matters very deeply to many people in Northern Ireland, touching on a core Northern Ireland distinctive—choosing life.
Reflecting on that, it is vital to remember that the United Kingdom is a Union—a relationship of component parts that are not all the same in every respect. In coming together, we are more than the sum of our parts. Our Union is no more uniform than it is unitary. That means that there is one reason, and one reason only, that Northern Ireland has been overruled. It is not because of any international human rights imperative; it is because a majority of Members of Parliament from Great Britain chose to impose this on Northern Ireland against the wishes of its people and their representatives.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I understand the conundrum the hon. Lady is in. She says that the regulations do not reflect the resolved position of Northern Ireland. Surely we are here today precisely because there is not a resolved political position among the representatives of the people in the Northern Ireland Assembly, although the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want to have the same regulations and rules on abortion that we have in the rest of the United Kingdom and in the rest of the island of Ireland?
Carla Lockhart
The hon. Gentleman will know that I disagree with his assessment. As someone who has her roots firmly in Northern Ireland—
Carla Lockhart
Well, living in Northern Ireland and representing a large constituency there, I know that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want laws that choose life. They want life-affirming laws and they want laws that help life to continue. That is why, in common with the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, I call on the Government to repeal section 9.
Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020
Richard Graham Excerpts(3 years, 11 months ago)
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Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, to many of us here, it is matter of huge regret that Northern Ireland has proved unable, so far, to resolve these issues herself, in the usual democratic way, and that this Parliament is only getting involved, alas, because of the failure to do so?
Mrs Miller
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but we need to grasp this issue fully and not apologise for the fact that we have taken the time to legislate. We firmly want to see the legislation that we have passed put into law and to be clarified for those who live in Northern Ireland.
As the Minister knows, passing that law is not enough. I have some of the same concerns as the shadow Minister about Parliament, here in Westminster, passing a law that will then be implemented by an Administration that was not part of the process of drawing up the law. We need to have some assurances from the Minister that while he, of course, will not have day-to-day responsibility for the implementation of the law, that he will make sure that it is implemented, because he has international and legal obligations to do so. It is important that he spells that out in when he sums up.
Sir John Hayes
I wish to make some progress, and then I will happily give way again. The key thing is that the will of the people of Northern Ireland is clearly quite different from the view of the last Parliament, when the essence of the changes that the regulations make legal was considered. For any Parliament to fly in the face of the will of the people is, as I have described it, not only unconstitutional but unwise.
It is quite clear that the regulations are unwanted in Northern Ireland. The Minister referred to the consultation, to which 79% of respondents stated their opposition to the furthering of abortion provision in Northern Ireland.
Sir John Hayes
I do not want to give way too often, because I know that others want to contribute, but I will happily give way to my hon. Friend.
Richard Graham
On that specific point, what percentage of the population responded to the consultation?
Sir John Hayes
That is a question for the Minister, not me, because he will have those figures to hand, but he was the one who made great play of the consultation, not I. He cited the consultation in his opening remarks. Indeed, he celebrated the fact that the Government had consulted widely. I was simply clarifying that in that wide consultation the overwhelming majority of people who responded were not in favour of what we are being asked to support today.
There have been other tests of opinion and other polls. The University of Liverpool released a poll showing that only 5% of Northern Irish voters wanted abortion to be provided up to 24 weeks, which is what the regulations do. The strength of feeling on the issue transcends the usual divides in Northern Ireland. According to polling, 58% of Sinn Féin voters and 54% of Democratic Unionist party voters believe that abortion should be allowed only if the mother’s life is at risk.
I could go on about polling, but I will simply make this point: it would be easy to assume that women took a different view from men, or that the young took a different view from those who have lived longer. In truth, women are less supportive of the regulations than men, and the young are less supportive than their parents and grandparents. In Northern Ireland, the regulations are certainly unwanted. That was illustrated last week, as has been said, when the Northern Ireland Assembly voted to oppose the regulations, passing a motion that states:
“That this Assembly welcomes the important intervention of disability campaigner Heidi Crowter and rejects the imposition of abortion legislation which extends to all non-fatal disabilities, including Down’s syndrome.”
The regulations are unwise. Seventy-nine of the 90 MLAs in the Northern Ireland Assembly voted against abortion on the grounds of non-fatal abnormalities. Despite that, the regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip or palate, or a club foot. If we vote the regulations through, what does that say to the people in Northern Ireland about how we view their opinion? Even more importantly, what does it say to those disabled people in that part of our kingdom, indeed in the whole of our kingdom, about how we regard them? I say it would broadcast loudly and clearly that we do not regard them very highly at all.
Furthermore, the regulations go much further than the requirements set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and further than the provisions that apply in England and Wales. Specifically, they allow for abortion on demand without certification through to 12 weeks, which will allow sex-selective abortion to be available during that period. It is the first time that no ground for abortion has been allowed up to 12 weeks. Some will say, “Well, that won’t happen. That’s alarmist. Why on earth would people abort a child on the basis of its gender?” I do not share that uncynical view, because we know there are cases where people have done so, and there are places in the world where that is common. We do not want it happening here, and anything that risks it should, frankly, send a shiver down the spine of any member of the Committee.
Indeed, the Government have curiously—I would go so far as to say remarkably—chosen to impose on Northern Ireland a more permissive regime than the one that applies in England and Wales. I do not have time, and you would not permit me, Sir David, to go through all the areas in which the regulations are more liberal than the regime that applies to the rest of the kingdom. That raises the issue of consistency, certainty and clarity—all used as arguments in favour of the regulations by my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, who has now left. How bizarre—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend is back; her ears must have been burning. If it is clarity, certainty and consistency that we want, why on earth would we want to impose a different regime in Northern Ireland from that which prevails elsewhere?
Yet there is a substantially different regulatory approach to abortions proposed for Northern Ireland from that in England and Wales. The Northern Ireland regime will allow all GP surgeries to be approved locations to do abortions, allowing this serious procedure to take place in a dramatically increased number of locations compared with England and Wales.
St Patrick’s Day
Richard Graham Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
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Jim Shannon
I certainly will, and I will be saying that if I ever get the chance to do so.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman is being extremely generous in taking interventions this evening. He said that every day is St Patrick’s Day for an Irishman, from whichever side of the border. He will therefore be delighted to hear that Gloucester celebrated St Patrick’s Day on Saturday evening in the Irish club, with an acting mayor, Councillor Collette Finnegan, who was born in Dublin. She is the first ever Irish-born mayor of Gloucester and the first to have worked in the NHS for 30 years. Will he join me in congratulating her and the Irish club?
Jim Shannon
I certainly will, and I am pleased to do that. It is wonderful that whenever St Patrick’s Day comes around, deep down we are all supporters of St Patrick’s Day and perhaps a wee bit Irish as well. I am speaking as British person, of course, and someone who has a passport that says that.
We all have saints, and I recall that on my first day at Westminster in 2010, I came through the doors and marvelled at the wondrous Lobby just outside these doors, where each nation’s patron saint is depicted. We have St George for England, St David for Wales, St Andrew for Scotland and of course the incomparable St Patrick for Ireland.
Jim Shannon
I certainly do, and I thank the hon. Lady for her question. It is very important that we recognise that point. There cannot be a Member in this House who does not have the same opinion. The Church has a key role to play in this. We can think of all the bad things that are happening, such as the coronavirus, but we should also think of all the people who do good things—and do those things without anyone ever knowing. That is what she is referring to. In that group, there are people with strong beliefs who want to reach out and help.
The huge parades that take place across American cities have their roots in the New York parade of 1762, when Irish soldiers in the British Army marched to St Patrick’s Day celebrations with their band playing—we do love the bands—and their regimental colours flying. I salute the work that is carried out to this day by the Irish Guards. The second largest branch of the Irish Guards Association is in my constituency of Strangford and in my town of Newtownards. The largest association is in Liverpool. I want to put on record my thanks to the Irish Guards for being great ambassadors of this great nation. I thank all of those who gave their lives for Queen and country over many, many years. The celebrations continue to this day in New York, Washington, Chicago and throughout the world and are testament to the attractiveness of St Patrick.
Richard Graham
As a declaration of interest, my brother-in-law was a colonel of the Irish Guards. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that history has not always been easy for the Irish Guards in the whole of the island of Ireland, but that things are now much better and the role that they and their individuals played in the two world wars is now much better recognised on both sides of the border?
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman is right. The Irish Guards have drawn their numbers from the north and the south, and they have done so over many years. The colonel of the Irish Guards is Simon Nichols, who, at the minute, is serving in Belize. He is a very good friend of mine and also happens to be one of my constituents. He and his wife and family are in Belize for a three-year sojourn. I am very pleased to highlight the good work of the Irish Guards.
Oral Answers to Questions
Richard Graham Excerpts(6 years, 10 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
We are protecting police budgets—[Interruption.] Yes. But we are of course making reforms to policing. That is why I introduced the National Crime Agency to deal with serious and organised crime, which actually relates to crime on the streets. That is why we have put money into a new national cybercrime unit to ensure that the police can deal with the new sorts of crimes they are having to deal with. Yes, we are reforming policing, but the key thing is not the number of police on the streets; the key thing is what happens to crime, and crime has fallen to a record low.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Q12. The Grenfell Tower tragedy shocked so many of us because we all believe that there is much that should never have happened. However, to claim ahead of any inquiry, as an Opposition Front Bencher did, that residents were “murdered” by politicians is grotesquely inappropriate. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that our Government will get on with helping to rebuild lives and homes and with progressing critical inquiries with urgency and, above all, non-partisan calm?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend raises a very important point. What all of those affected by Grenfell Tower deserve is an inquiry that gets to the truth and provides them with the truth and with the knowledge of who was responsible. We need to do that in a careful, calm and determined way. We also need to use that same calm determination to ensure that we get to the bottom of the wider issue of why materials that have been used in tower blocks around the country appear to be non-compliant with the building regulations. There are real issues here. We are not going to get to the truth by pointing fingers, but we will by calm determination.
Oral Answers to Questions
Richard Graham Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
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Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Mr Lidington
My hon. Friend is as always speaking up strongly on behalf of his constituents. Any of us who have been to Gloucester will know that it is a place we want to be able to visit frequently and easily. The Government are investing record amounts in improving our railways and, in his particular case, Transport Ministers are working with CrossCountry and Great Western to see how the Gloucester service can be improved.
David Black
Richard Graham Excerpts(11 years, 6 months ago)
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Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
May I thank my right hon. Friend for her sombre and resolute statement this morning on the murder of David Black, which will have resonated across Northern Ireland and, indeed, the Republic of Ireland? Does she agree, first, that the unity of response from all parties is the best guarantee that we will not see a return to the cycle of violence of the past? Secondly—I echo some earlier remarks by an hon. Member—does she agree that although we frequently and rightly recognise the risks and dangers facing those serving in the armed forces and police forces, this very sad event reminds us of the threats that all those across the United Kingdom in our uniformed services may face, including members of Her Majesty’s Prison Service, and that this is a good moment to recognise their contribution to public life too?
Mrs Villiers
I agree with my hon. Friend that unity of response is the best guarantee of defeating the terrorists. That is why I welcome the universal condemnation of this crime. I also agree that this event provides us with the opportunity to reflect on public servants who find themselves in harm’s way in all sorts of contexts. That of course includes those in Afghanistan, but sadly in this case those performing dedicated duties in the prison service also tragically found themselves in harm’s way. This is a good opportunity for the House to reflect on the courage and dedication of all public servants who find themselves in that situation.