Flood Defences (Leeds)

Debate between Rory Stewart and Greg Mulholland

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Rory Stewart]

Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. In that case, I shall exploit my five minutes.

The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) made a powerful argument as someone who was involved. To some extent, he embraced the £44 million scheme, but he would like much more to be done and a higher level of protection throughout the city. The hon. Member for Leeds North East (Fabian Hamilton) made a powerful contribution, with an argument for an economic centre. We also heard from the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon), my hon. Friends the Members for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker) and for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), and finally from the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), who made a strong argument about how all of this should be tied together.

[Greg Mulholland]

What about Leeds North West?

[Rory Stewart]

Many apologies. The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) also made a good case.

There has to be a cross-party approach, because we need investment from businesses and councils. We have to deal with communities upstream or downstream that are concerned about the impact of the flood defences that we are putting in. We need a communications drive across the country. I am happy to confirm that we will now go ahead with the feasibility study that the hon. Member for Leeds West requested. That money will be made available, and we will make a full analysis of the Leeds scheme. That will allow us not just to complete phase 1 but to look at the future.

We will have to look at various options. Outside the window in the apartment of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central, he would be looking at the possibility of raising those walls that are already going in. There is not much more that we can do downstream, as that work has already been done with the moveable weirs. Upstream on the Kirkstall Road, we would have to look at putting in walls where walls do not currently exist, and higher than that we will have to look at the possibility of two different types of reservoir: permanent reservoirs and offline reservoirs—in other words, farmland can occasionally be used. We can also look, as my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley said, at the potential of measures on upstream catchments to slow the water coming downstream.

The feasibility study will address the catchment coming through Leeds. It will look at upstream mitigation, reservoirs and the potential for walls to be built along the road, which will involve many hon. Members discussing with local residents whether they are prepared to have their views cut off, how high the walls should go, and to what extent companies want to contribute to those walls. I believe that, after this flooding event, the political will is there and residents will be happy to do that. It will have to go all the way down to the constituency of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central, where we will have to look at raising the walls of that £44 million scheme.

On that, and with great thanks to the hon. Member for Leeds West, I wish to say a huge thank you for all the work that has been done by people in Leeds, including the leader of Leeds City Council, who has put a huge amount of heart and soul into this, and by the thousand volunteers who were mentioned. May I assure the people of Leeds, as was made absolutely clear by the Secretary of State, that Leeds is a priority, exactly because of the unique characteristics that have been raised so powerfully in this debate?

Question put and agreed to.

The Future of Pubs

Debate between Rory Stewart and Greg Mulholland

Thursday 9th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Greg Mulholland]

I do not think that I have ever taken part in a debate in which the interventions were so accurate and helpful. My right hon. Friend and ally is right that there is a scandal going on, with pub owners—whether individuals, pub companies or brewers—who have decided that they want to do something else with the pub deliberately running it down. Often an inappropriate person is picked to run it. That has happened in Leeds and, I am sure, around the country. It is a scandal, and takes us back to the fact that communities have no say in the process.

I hate to see boarded-up pubs. One of my local pubs, the Summercross, remains boarded up after we were conned by a company that told us it would quickly build a care home there. That was more than two and a half years ago, and it is still a huge eyesore in a very pleasant part of Otley. The surrounding community has no power. I agree that there should be powers to stop people land banking derelict buildings that could and should be used. However, we must not let that become an excuse for it to be made even easier for people to lose their pubs.

I welcome the community right to buy that the Government have proposed and look forward to hearing more about it from the Minister. It fits very well with the idea of the big society and with our passion for empowering communities, decentralising power and giving communities a voice. However, I have one note of caution to sound for the Minister about something I have raised previously. Although it is incredibly welcome that communities are to be given the opportunity to see whether they can take over ownership of their pubs, that will not solve the problem of popular, wanted and viable pubs closing. In some areas the community will be unable to take a pub on, or will not want to; but it will still want the pub to continue. I have seen many cases in which a good small pub company, small brewery or individual wanted to buy or take on a pub; but they can currently be prevented from doing so. Unless we include in the planning process a right for communities to have a say in a process, that gap will not be plugged. I ask the Minister to consider that.

I now turn my attention to the model of the beer tie operated by pub companies, which my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands has already outlined. It would be useful to give the House an update on the current position. I look, once again, to the Opposition Benches, because, after a long campaign fought by several organisations, the previous Government listened and acted. That was extremely welcome and I was delighted when the present Government, through Business Ministers, said that they would follow the process that was put in place by the previous Government. That was extremely important and positive.

I shall not go through the figures and the issue of the tie, but the present position is that three recommendations were made by the previous Government and adopted by the present one, and they come within ministerial responsibilities. The first is that the industry should ensure the accuracy of flow-monitoring equipment. We have already had mention of that. The second was the implementation of a code of practice; and the third was that Ministerial action should follow a failure to do those things and establish a code of practice that addressed the concerns of the Select Committee on Business and Enterprise. That is crucial. In addition, Ministers would consider the matter and would be minded to refer the matter to the Competition Commission if reform was not forthcoming.

I raised concerns with the Minister’s colleague, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, to whom I was perhaps a little less kind in a previous debate, about the merging of the Competition Commission with the Office of Fair Trading and its implications for the process in question. That is in the light of the fact that the OFT came up with the extraordinary decision that, although it admitted that tenants were not treated fairly and beer prices to the customer were higher, there were no competition issues. I look forward to hearing about that.

So far the result of the process is that only two companies have established an accredited code by the deadline, which was 1 July 2010. The deadline for implementation was 1 October. Therefore 28% of British Beer and Pub Association members failed to meet their obligations. The BBPA framework on which the codes are based deliberately and explicitly excludes the commercial issues that constituted the problems highlighted in the ministerial response. Crucially, no company code offers a genuine free-of tie option to lessees and few offer a guest beer option. The reality—I have to make this clear—is that so far those companies deemed to be operating unacceptably to the previous Government and the Select Committee, and to this Government, are still doing so. Unless that changes significantly, Ministers will have to act.

I have to mention the codes of practice, some of which are now being produced. Hon. Members may not be surprised that I will mention specifically the Enterprise Inns code of practice, a glossy document that starts:

“Our new Code of Practice sets out our commitments to you”.

However, it generally sets out the tenants’ obligations to Enterprise Inns. Tenants are being pressed by Enterprise business development managers to sign the certificate of acceptance in the manner of a door-to-door window salesman. I ask the Minister’s colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to look at that, because not only are the codes—particularly that one—not delivering what they were supposed to deliver but there is a danger that they will make the situation worse, will put more onus on the tenant and are doing nothing to address the problems in that business relationship.

I shall mention something now that will upset deeply my colleague the hon. Member for Burton although he may wish to comment on it in his speech—I hope that he does. The largest pub company, Punch Taverns, is in a desperately parlous financial position. It gives me little pleasure to say so. There is a crisis in the biggest pub companies, which are in eye-watering debt. That is the biggest threat that the British pub faces at the moment. Hon. Members have said that that is because of bad business decisions—the sort of gambling that gave the bankers a bad name—including over-valuing their estates, and now they are in vast amounts of debt to creditors. Pubs are being sold and closed continually to deal with that. Enterprise has just raised another £9 million from auction.

There is concern that Punch is teetering on the brink. I hope that that is not so, because the last thing that we want is many pubs suddenly coming on the market and many of those being converted to other uses. That goes back to what I said before. We have to get something in the planning process that stops people simply getting rid of pubs for what they can get.

I come now to my final question to the community pubs Minister. It gives me great pleasure to call him that. The Minister is a fan and a friend of the pub and I look forward to chatting with him, perhaps over pints in pubs, as we move forward and work together with his team and the all-party save the pub group. Are the Government committed to a below-cost selling ban? I think that all hon. Members would support that to stop the scandal of supermarkets selling beer below cost. It is not a price-fixing measure or thinking that is against the free market; we are simply saying that supermarkets should not be selling beer below cost to get people into their stores. If they want to do that, they can do it with chicken or bread, or things that are useful to people, but they should not undermine pubs and sell irresponsibly.

[Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I would not encourage supermarkets to underprice other goods, such as dairy products, for the sake of beer. I strongly support the hon. Gentleman’s saying that they should not underprice beer, but we should not encourage them to underprice bread or any other commodities, either.

[Greg Mulholland]

I was not suggesting that they should do that. If they really want to attract people to their stores in a moral way, they should do so with things that are of value. I am not for one minute suggesting that people should be under-cutting. I am one of many people—I am sure that colleagues have campaigned for it—who would like a supermarkets ombudsman and fair pricing for dairy farmers, for example. I reassure the hon. Gentleman on that point.

I have asked the Leader of the House about below-cost selling, which was not in the policing Bill last week, although many hon. Members thought that it would be. Can the community pubs Minister give us some news about when that will come forward? I hope that this is the last Christmas that we see irresponsible promotions that do damage to pubs, which also rely on Christmas.

Duty is a challenge. I congratulate the Government on not increasing beer duty again, because it has gone up too high and has been damaging. I hope that that message has got through, even in this difficult time, because putting too much duty on beer will have a detrimental effect, particularly on smaller and medium-sized breweries that come above the progressive rate relief, which incidentally we must keep for microbreweries that a colleague, who is no longer in place, so correctly mentioned.

My final challenge to the Minister is not for his Department, but is one that he should pass on. We must find a way to help pubs by allowing a differential rate of duty. That is a challenge with regard to European law, but we can face that and should not keep using it as an excuse. There are ways of doing that. One way, which has been raised, is to have a differential rate of VAT for pubs, which is worth putting on the table. Another way would be to have a differential rate for draft beer, which at the moment is believed not to be possible through EU law.

Another solution was given to me by the head brewer at Fuller’s in London. There may be a way to have a different rate of duty on real ale, specifically cask ale, which is our great national drink—our Burgundy and Bordeaux—of which we should be prouder and about which we should make more noise. Every barrel and cask that leaves a brewery has an allowable duty-free element, because it is a sedimented product. If that provision could be unified, it would remove all the bureaucracy of checking at the gate and the different rule per beer and there might be a way to allow a different rate of duty perfectly legally within EU rules. I put that challenge to the Minister.

I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for attending this important debate. It is great to see such a wonderful turnout and I know that they are all passionate. I look forward to working with all of them, and with the community pubs Minister and the all-party save the pub group, to do as much as we can to support and save our great British institution.