Rosie Winterton
Main Page: Rosie Winterton (Labour - Doncaster Central)Department Debates - View all Rosie Winterton's debates with the Department of Health and Social Care
(2 years, 4 months ago)
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Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. Just before the Secretary of State makes further progress, it is absolutely right that he should be taking a lot of interventions—there are a lot of questions to be asked—but people who have already made one intervention should not be making a second or a third intervention and certainly not if they also wish to be called to speak later in the day. I have too many people who wish to speak and there is not going to be enough time for everybody. Be sure—if you keep intervening, you do not get to speak. Let us have a little consideration for others.
Sajid Javid
I shall indulge my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) because he is going to be really short.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. To accommodate everybody, I am reducing the time limit to three minutes. I was able to warn the next speaker of that change.
Several hon. Members rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. We will get everybody in as long as Members do not take interventions—or if they do, they still stick to three minutes.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) and I thank him for his reassurance that the Whips have not pushed him in that direction.
The Government have done an extraordinary job over the last two years. Rolling out the vaccine so quickly has been an extraordinary achievement as is producing a booster programme in the way we have. There is a remarkable book by Adam Grant called “Think Again”—the title is perhaps apposite for the Government right now—which talks about how we persuade people to take vaccinations and it gives the two case studies of Canada and Germany, where people are not mandatorily required to get vaccinated or pushed in that direction but ways are found to persuade them. We would do well to follow the guidance to be found in that book.
I will vote against the masks measure in SI No. 1400 and support the self-isolation measure in SI No. 1415. In relation to the masks, the legislation is shoddy; it seems ill thought through if, as I said the other day, we can sing, eat or drink with a colleague but not have to go to work with them, and yet masks are introduced in the certain settings. A Government and their legislation have a responsibility to be good and comprehensive; that is not what this is doing.
When it comes to vaccine passports, I will not support them. As countless colleagues have said, there is little evidence to show that they work. I am sorry that no SNP Members are here, because the 70-page report produced by Nicola Sturgeon adds to that point. A very important point was made earlier about the lack of enforceability now that we have the lateral flow tests, because of this slightly dodgy deal that has been done with the Opposition to get their support. The scope for abuse and obfuscation on that is far too great.
When it comes to mandatory vaccinations, I cannot and will not support them. The problem I have with this is that the Government have yet to release the data on how many people have left care homes since we introduced that policy. We need to have the data to be able to review that, because if 60,000, 20,000 or 30,000 people in the NHS decide to walk out, how on earth will we have the capacity to support those who get infected? We need more information before we make those decisions.
Over the last two weeks, the ghost of Christmas past has appeared, and he brings with him fear and uncertainty. We cannot continue to flip-flop and change tack, nor should we be cherry-picking information from South Africa to support the Government’s agenda. I appreciate that the evidence coming out this morning shows that two Pfizer vaccinations do well and that the virus is milder, but we cannot continue to terrify people. I am staggered by the Government’s approach over the last two weeks, during which we have used fear to persuade people. I believe that no Government should ever use fear as a tool to try to persuade their citizens, and that it is what has happened. We must build up our resilience and reduce our restrictions.
Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)
I think most people understood that vaccination was the route back to normality. Despite the fact that 95% of adults in the UK now have antibodies—I accept that there may be some reduction in the protection from antibodies, but there is certainly no evidence for any reduction in T-cell protection—we are being asked to impose more restrictions on lives and livelihoods.
I have looked in detail at the modelling done by the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. We need to be clear that they are models, as my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) said, not forecasts or predictions. They are based on some pretty major assumptions, such as that omicron causes the same severity of disease as delta and that the length of hospital stay is the same. Those assumptions are becoming more out of date by the day. There is no known benefit to the measures that we are trying to implement, but there will be inevitable harms.
On working from home, we saw research last week that suggests that those working from home are 11 times more likely to experience domestic abuse. Masks sound innocuous in their own right, but they send a signal across society, including in schools, that people should panic and fear. We have already seen schools close today and say that they may not return in the new year. That 100,000 ghost children have not returned to schools since lockdown should be a warning to us of the unintended consequences of potentially small measures.
I cannot support vaccine passports. As my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Dr Spencer) said, they are discriminatory and segregate people. We have a proud tradition in this country of standing up for minority views, even when we do not agree with them. In the rush to get jabs in arms, we should not throw that tolerance and respect to the wind.
I completely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham about the mandatory vaccination of NHS staff. It is about not the ideology of whether people should be vaccinated but the pragmatic reality that we will lose tens of thousands of staff at a time when we can least afford it.
This is no longer really a debate about whether masks work or who should have a vaccine. It is about who we are and what kind of society we are creating for our children. Do we really care about the freedoms that we all took for granted before 2020? People roll their eyes when Conservatives and libertarians start talking about civil liberties and freedoms, but freedom is not an abstract ideology.
Freedom is what enables my constituents to see their family, comfort the dying, go to school and go to work. That is what freedom looks like. After 20 months in and out of restrictions, we have to accept that there has been a permanent change in the understanding of what liberty is in this country, which is why I cannot support these measures. I urge the Government to return to a society of freedom and responsibility. Our constituents deserve that and they will rise to the challenge.
Steve Barclay
I am not sure whether the hon. Member has been in the Chamber for the whole debate, but throughout the day there has been consensus across the House on the importance of being vaccinated and of boosters; that has been a point of agreement. Obviously, the management of the House is a matter for Mr Speaker, not for me. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) correctly highlighted, he and our constituents will continue to be able to access all facilities, as before. I point out to the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) that it is still possible to go to nightclubs, just as it is possible to vote, and these measures will not prevent that.
As well as omicron’s transmissibility, we are also beginning to learn more about the effectiveness of our vaccines against it. Boosters were important before omicron, but they are now critical and, as of this evening, we have delivered 24 million across the United Kingdom. Boosters are, without question, the single most effective thing we can do and plan B buys us more time to get more boosters into more arms. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Dr Evans), who, as a GP himself, highlighted the importance of addressing the 15-minute wait period to increase the flow of boosters—a decision that the chief medical officers across the UK have supported. I also concur with my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), who rightly highlighted that the second dose is important alongside the booster.
The early evidence suggests that a booster dose is extremely effective; analysis by the UK Health Security Agency shows that a booster dose is 70% to 75% effective at preventing symptomatic infection. That is particularly important given the speed at which this infection is spreading, which means that the increase will be sharper, and its impact more concentrated, over a shorter period of time.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised an issue. The Health Secretary flagged up in opening the debate that he intended to remove all 11 remaining countries from England’s red list as of 4 am tomorrow. The Health Secretary has urgently considered the issue of releasing people from managed quarantine before they have completed the 10-day isolation—a point also raised by the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and a number of Members from across the House. The Government’s decision is that we should permit early release of those who went into managed quarantine before the changes to the red list and require them to follow the relevant rules as if they had arrived from a non-red list country. Anyone who has tested positive will need to continue to stay in managed quarantine. That will require changes to regulations. We will look to implement that as quickly as possible and we will set out further specific guidance for affected individuals imminently.
I turn now to the statutory instruments before the House. The weight of scientific evidence shows that face coverings can make a difference, even if, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) said—he is a clinician himself—it is the least that we can do to wear these wretched things. Regulation 1400, which extends the use of face coverings, is a simple step to help slow the spread and I welcome the support of Members. Even those with concerns, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), said that they would not oppose such a measure.
It is vital that we draw on our testing capacity to keep Britain moving. Regulation 1415 enables close contacts of confirmed or suspected covid cases who are fully vaccinated to take lateral flow tests every day for seven days. In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), the lateral flow tests will be self-reported.
Regulation 1416 regarding entry to venues and events is one I know that hon. Members have given considerable attention. But this is very far from what has been described as a vaccine passport—a point that the Health Secretary made in opening the debate. This measure will mean that a negative lateral flow test is required to get into nightclubs and large events, with an exemption for the double vaccinated. Once all adults have had a reasonable chance to get their booster jab, we intend to change this exemption to require a booster.
Vaccination has been and remains our best line of defence. We have heard many contributions from across the House on making vaccination a condition of deployment for staff in health and wider social care settings. I recognise how emotive this issue is. Whether it is our care homes, our hospitals or other health settings, everyone working in health and social care is there to avoid preventable harm to the people for whom they care. As the chief medical officer has rightly said, people who are looking after other people who are vulnerable have a professional responsibility to get vaccinated, which was a point that another clinician—my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter)—made.
In closing, I am grateful for all the contributions today. The measures before us will help us to buy time and deliver boosters, which will provide the best protection against this variant. Vaccination, which was already so important before omicron, is now doubly important, especially in those settings with some of our most vulnerable people. I commend the regulations to the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
Order. To address the point raised by the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler), in the event of Divisions, it is likely that there could be a large number of Members voting in one Lobby this evening, so Mr Speaker has agreed that 12 minutes should be allowed before I call for the doors to be locked. Members should accordingly be aware that they do not need to crowd into the Lobby at the beginning of the vote, as there will be more time to vote than usual.
6.30 pm
The Deputy Speaker put the Question (Order, this day).