Sam Gyimah
Main Page: Sam Gyimah (Liberal Democrat - East Surrey)
Vince Cable
We will obviously look at any proposals on their merits, but our current regulatory system does have a micro-business exemption and we test all our proposals against that possibility. My hon. Friend should perhaps look at the FSB’s submission, because one of the problems the small business sector often highlights is that it does not wish to be regarded as a second-rate tier of employment that is colonised by cowboy employers. It makes it very clear that it is small businesses that resist the segmentation of the labour market.
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the current employment tribunal system is not simple, transparent or inexpensive for employers, because for many of them dealing with an individual case or a class action-type case is incredibly expensive and long-winded, and that serves as a barrier to businesses hiring new staff? They know that if things go wrong it is very complicated, so simplifying the system and enabling them to deal with it without resorting to disputes should be the way forward in the Bill.
Vince Cable
I totally agree with my hon. Friend, who anticipates many of the things I will say. He is absolutely right that the process is very cumbersome and time-consuming. There is currently an enormous backlog of 430,000 cases and it is very costly, particularly for small companies. The whole thrust of the changes I want to introduce relates specifically to making the tribunal system much simpler and avoidable where possible.
Vince Cable
I was going to mention that measure at the end of my speech. We see it essentially as a bit of legislative tidying up; we are not going to argue that it has significant impacts on business. However, we can pursue the detailed implications.
The Bill introduces further measures and makes it possible to include a sunset or review clause in any new secondary legislation to ensure that legislation is fit for purpose and is regularly reviewed. It also extends business eligibility for the highly successful primary authority scheme, which allows firms to get assured advice from one local authority on a particular regulatory issue. Often what businesses find most bewildering is not the regulation itself—they recognise that rules are often necessary—but the inconsistent application of the rules so that they have to adjust their systems depending on the whim of a local official. The primary authority scheme deals with that.
Mr Gyimah
On reviewing regulations that have already been passed, one regulation that springs to mind is the agency workers directive, where, on issues such as pay, bonuses and holidays, we have gold-plated what Brussels originally introduced. In so doing, we have made what is supposed to be flexible, temporary work more like permanent work, which it should not be. Would we be able to review that legislation under the sunset clause that the Secretary of State mentioned?
Vince Cable
This would not be the context in which to do it, because it is, of course, now part of the law. We have looked at this in considerable detail because a lot of concern has been expressed about it. The UK’s implementation of the agency workers directive came about as the result of a negotiated agreement between employers and employees and their representative bodies. We explored the possibility of easing some of the burdens on business arising from the directive and came to the conclusion that in practice we could not do so. However, I hear the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, which were expressed by many companies.
Mr Gyimah
I understand that the TUC and the CBI, as European social partners, were very involved in the negotiations between employees and business, but representatives of small businesses were not, despite the fact that the impact of such legislation on small businesses can be particularly draconian. I urge the Secretary of State to consider a way of reviewing the gold-plating of such legislation, especially where it applies to small businesses.
Vince Cable
I have an open mind if the hon. Gentleman has good ideas as to how that can be done. We have committed ourselves to removing the gold-plating of European legislation as it applies to Britain, and if he has good, constructive ideas, we are happy to look at them.
Mr Umunna
I could not agree more. The Government have committed to additionality and we will look to ensure that that occurs.
Part 2 of the Bill relates to employment law, which has attracted much public concern. As I have said before, we are not in a double-dip recession because of the rights that people in this country enjoy at work. No amount of sabre rattling and nonsense from Government Members about the need to allow employers to fire employees at will is going to get us out of recession. That is a simple fact. We are in a double-dip recession because of a lack of demand. Watering down employee rights will not boost demand. In fact, it is highly likely—
Mr Umunna
I was wondering when a Government Member would seek to intervene. I will give way shortly.
Watering down employee rights will not boost demand but is highly likely to do the opposite. As the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development said last week, increasing job insecurity is more likely to damage growth and consumer confidence than increase them. I say to the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) that the Federation of Small Businesses has been in contact with us today about the Government’s proposals to allow no-fault dismissal, with fewer employment protections for those working in small businesses, for which he has argued. It has said that
“those who do take employment in small firms could be lower skilled, less productive workers willing to accept lower protection, making it even more difficult for these firms to grow”
and that
“there is a question that with weakened rights, employees in small firms would find getting access to credit more difficult. If so, that would make labour recruitment for small firms even harder.”
Mr Umunna
I say to the hon. Member for Bedford and to the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), who says that that is absolute nonsense, that I have quoted the Federation of Small Businesses word for word. It has made it clear that replacing the need for good management with a hire-and-fire culture does not fit with its views on good employee relations.
Mr Gyimah
There is a fundamental misunderstanding here. It is a misrepresentation to say that any conversation about making it easier for both employers and employees to exit a relationship that is not working is an attack on workers’ rights. That is simply not true and it is not what the Bill tries to do. The shadow Secretary of State has mentioned that we need growth. It is important to remove everything that stops investors being confident enough to invest. Access to finance is one such thing, but so is the confidence to hire people. That is why the Bill seeks to simplify the employment tribunals system.