Fisheries

Sheryll Murray Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Doran]

I was not directly aware of that, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. I am sure that others will want to expand on it.

My first question to the Minister is this. In previous debates, he has mentioned that he proposes to publish a list of quota holders. We have been waiting for that list for some time. I would be interested and pleased to get an update on progress from him. In particular, what are the reasons for the delay?

Another important issue is health and safety in the fishing industry. Usually in these debates, we remember those who have lost their lives in the industry, which I am sad to say is still the least safe industry in the country in which to work. I have some figures from the Library, which I will mention later.

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that remarks made last Friday during the passage of my private Member’s Bill—some Members said that it was not necessary to carry a VHF radio on a small boat—were not particularly responsible? The minimum safety aid that anybody can carry at sea is a VHF radio, if not a personal emergency position-indicating radio beacon.

[Mr Doran]

The hon. Lady has direct experience of what I am discussing and is an expert in the field. I am happy to have been a member of the Committee that debated her Bill. She has made an extremely important point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

I pay special tribute to the families of all lost fishermen, the rescue services and the work of the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen.

I shall concentrate on area VII total allowable catches and quotas, because other hon. Members will speak about other areas. The proposed 15% increase for area VIIe Dover sole is welcome. The International Council for the Exploration of the Sea advised an increase of 23%, but the restriction in the Commission’s multi-annual management plan would not allow it. Plaice is responding well to the same regime, and although ICES advised an increase of 26%, the Commission has proposed an increase of only 6%, despite its regulation on plaice, on page 6 of the proposal, stating that Channel plaice can be raised by 18%. It seems bizarre.

The proposed cuts that will particularly affect south-west fleets in 2013 include: 20% cut to anglerfish; a 32% cut to northern hake; and a 20% cut to megrim. Part of the reason for that was Spain’s refusal to provide its commercial data. Why should all member states be penalised because of the irresponsible action of one member state? There is also a proposed cut of 55% to area VIIb-k haddock. A mass recruitment occurred in 2009, but the total allowable catch has not risen to reflect it. The Commission is proposing a further massive cut, which will result in a greater increase in discards of gadoids, which die anyway when they are discarded. The maximum sustainable yield has increased year on year.

Page 5 of the 2012 quota management rules states that the south-west mackerel handline quota is ring-fenced. Will the Minister reassure me and confirm that that will continue in 2013? Although some of the quota is unused and has recently been used for swaps, the security that the ring-fence provides the fishermen who use that traditional, environmentally friendly and sustainable method of capture must be maintained.

[Andrew George]

I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue—I, too, have written to the Minister about it—and I entirely agree with her. Does she share my concern that the proposal is being made under the noses of the fishermen, who are not being consulted at all about its potentially devastating impact?

[Sheryll Murray]

I completely share my hon. Friend’s concerns.

On the CFP review of regional management, although a sea basin approach is welcome, we must all remember that it will be for a limited period, because article 6(1) of the new regulation states that Union vessels shall have equal access to waters and resources in all Union waters. In his bid to secure legitimate sea basin management, has the Minister explored the deletion of that article from the proposal?

On the 12-mile limit, I am delighted that the European Parliament and the Council have adopted a regulation to extend the arrangements for a further two years, thus avoiding a repetition of the situation that arose in January 1983 and the subsequent case of Regina v. Kirk in the European Court of Justice. The Labour party claimed in 2002 that it had secured a roll-over of the 12-mile limit, but that was untrue. According to article 100 of our act of accession, the original agreement referred to the position as on 31 January 1971. That position, which was set out in the London convention of 1964, remained until the present 2002 regulation, in which it was changed. Fishermen from specific member states are now allowed access to specific areas for specific stocks, as is set out in an annexe to the regulation. I hope that the Opposition will apologise to UK fishermen for that error.

The restriction of access to member states within a certain band could help our fishermen using small—under 10 metre—vessels, who are struggling with their quota share. Action on that matter was yet another failure by the Labour party. Please will the Minister take soundings over the next two years to secure a better deal on access to our 12-mile limit? Newer member states do not have such shared access.

I understand the industry’s concern about how a discard ban would affect it, but I believe that the discarding of marketable fish is a wicked waste of healthy protein. I have often raised the matter of small gurnards, which are fished off my constituency, and I am delighted to inform hon. Members that one of my fish merchants is now using them as an ingredient in the Lipsmacking Liskeard pies range. The fish version is the Shipwreck pie, which is quite delicious. I certainly recommend that hon. Members try it should they ever happen to be passing through Liskeard.

Some of my fishermen are very worried about the implications of marine protected areas. Although I acknowledge that Natura 2000 sites cannot take account of socio-economics, the MPAs that the Minister will designate under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 can do so. Will the Minister reassure me that any consultation on the selected sites, which he is due to announce, will allow leisure and commercial fishermen to put their case should they feel disadvantaged?

I want to mention an MPA that has been the subject of a case in the European Court of Justice relating to Spain and the southern Gibraltar waters. Having declared an MPA in the southern Gibraltar territorial waters, the UK registered it with the European Commission, but Spain has contested those waters. Indeed, Spain included them in its own, much larger MPA, which it has registered with the Commission.

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend obviously speaks about this subject with a great deal of experience. She mentioned socio-economic considerations of marine conservation areas and marine protected areas. Does she agree that such areas also provide an opportunity for additional benefits, such as tourism? I am particularly thinking of the sinking of the Scylla near her constituency, and the economic benefits that that has brought.

[Sheryll Murray]

One of our problems with the proposed MPA there is that a lot of dredged silt is being dumped in a disposal ground close to the Scylla. I know that the Minister has visited my constituency and seen that for himself.

The European Court of Justice has confirmed that the Spanish action was legal, but it should be noted that one of the judges on the appeal panel was a Spanish national. Although I do not expect the Minster to respond on that subject today, will he write to me to say what his Department or the Foreign Office now intends to do? I admire his work for our fishermen at this important time, but I fear the outcome will not be as positive as they want, or as they—let alone the fish stocks—deserve.

We are constrained by the principle of equal access to a common resource, but I want to remind the Minister of the words of some of his predecessors when they held shadow posts. In November 2002, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) told the House:

“We should follow the example of those countries that have had the courage to take control of their own fisheries policies.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2002; Vol. 394, c. 825.]

On 2 December 2004, the current Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who then held the shadow fisheries post, said:

“The CFP is a biological, environmental, economic and social disaster. It is our clearly stated policy to leave the CFP and establish national and local control.”—[Official Report, 2 December 2004; Vol. 428, c. 836.]

He even published a Green Paper on how fisheries would be managed within the UK 200- mile limit or the median line. Finally, on 7 December 2005, he told the House that

“my hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) said that he ‘would reverse EU control of fisheries policy and withdraw from employment and social policies.’ On numerous occasions during the campaign, my hon. Friend stressed employment and social policies—and my word, fishing certainly comes into that category.”—[Official Report, 7 December 2005; Vol. 440, c. 888.]

If the Minister cannot secure real, permanent change to fisheries policy during the review of the CFP, will he takes steps to persuade my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister to take back national control over our 200-mile limit? Indeed, the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) could show him the way, through the Bill he presented some years ago, which British fishermen still applaud today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to be called in the debate and to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate.

Many Members here today wish to speak about the fishing industry because of constituency interests, so it could be asked: what am I, as a London MP, doing also asking questions? The answer is simple. Many of my constituents eat fish, just like the father of the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright)—I, too, wish him a happy birthday. Also, as I grew up in Cornwall and around the coast, I am particularly interested in the sea. I challenge anyone here who has not done so to read Rachel Carson’s “The Sea Around Us”, and to marvel at the majesty of the oceans, as described there. I also challenge anyone who disputes the environmental degradation of the sea to read one of Callum Roberts’s books, and to learn for themselves about the problems that the sea, the wider ecosystem and the environmental community face. I make no apology for drawing heavily on both those conservationists. I believe that my plagiarism is just a testament to their ideas—ideas that we, as decision makers, should consider.

I would like the Minister to consider several things as part of the UK’s fishing policy. I have some ideas that might increase the sustainability of fish stocks and the biodiversity of species, their habitats and changes in the food web structure on our coasts. I believe that we should reduce the amount of fishing. We cannot say that we were not warned about this issue many times, many years ago. As long ago as 1948, in his “Rational fishing of the cod of the North Sea”, Michael Graham noted that

“the properties of an over-fished stock are such that all attempts at improvement will be unsuccessful so long as there is not some limitation of the total fishing power expended per annum, involving fishing by all nations.”

Where there is no restriction on access, people will pile into the industry all the while there are profits to be made.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does my hon. Friend not agree that coastal communities disproportionately rely on fishing jobs, and that we should not only be considering the conservation of fish stocks but taking into account the conservation of fishermen?

[Dr Offord]

Having grown up in Cornwall and having conducted my PhD research on economic development in the county, I certainly agree. The local authority in Cornwall has a great role to play in that, but it is not currently doing so. Agriculture and fisheries are concerns in Cornwall, and those concerns are not being addressed, so I do agree with my hon. Friend.

Under the common fisheries policy, countries have had their access limited, but fishing capacity can still increase to excessive levels because of technological innovation. A decade ago it was estimated that the fishing fleet in the North sea was already 40% larger than was sustainable, so it is understandable that one of the CFP’s main thrusts is to decommission vessels. In October, I asked the Minister about the Government’s policy on the decommissioning of fishing vessels and he advised me that decommissioning was not a policy of this Government. It was, however, Government policy back in the 1930s, particularly regarding the herring fishing fleet.

I accept that decommissioning is not a panacea for the fishing industry’s problems. The first to sell up are usually those who have the worst fishing records and those with the oldest boats. In practical terms, the owners of the large fishing fleets will often sell their oldest vessels and put the money into buying new ships and fleets, and they will also put the money into fishing gear and electronics. That is, therefore, only one step that we should take, but I ask the Minister to consider it.

I also ask the Minister to consider the elimination of what I call risk-prone decision making. What I mean by that is that we should take elected politicians out of the decision-making process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab)]

We should be grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us this debate, although the fishing debates before previous December Fisheries Council meetings were always three-hour debates on the Floor of the House. I commend to the Minister the idea of going back to that. Rather than exhausting Back-Bench resources on providing our own debate, this debate should be on the Floor of the House.

I had hoped to be the first fisherman of England to speak, because the weight of the industry has drifted north to Scotland, but I have been preceded by the hon. Members for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw).

The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood spoke of the quota hoppers in Fleetwood. Some years back I chaired the Fisheries Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on Agriculture. We went to Vigo in Spain, and I was asked whether I would like to meet the chairman of the Fleetwood Fishing Vessel Owners Association, who was introduced to me and did not speak a word of English. As I spoke no Spanish, there was no meeting of minds on that occasion, but it indicates the extent to which quota hoppers have become important to the English industry.

This debate is part of a long war we have had to change the common fisheries policy, and in my case to scrap it. The Conservative party no longer adopts my position for some inexplicable reason, so we are talking about improving the common fisheries policy to make it more bearable because, frankly, it has not worked and is not working.

Making the common fisheries policy work will be very difficult, because the nation state is the conserver of its own fishing interests, and it has an interest in conservation to hand on its fishing industry. We are gradually reforming the CFP, but it is still a top-down operation—a Gosplan of the seas—rather than a locally controlled operation. That is why we need to move closer to regional control by strengthening the regional advisory councils, which are doing a good job. Some of the powers handled from Brussels, such as those on catch quotas, fishing methods and the closing and opening of grounds, should be exercised locally in the area concerned by the regional advisory council. We will have further complications now that there is co-decision making by the European Parliament, which means all sorts of political factors will intrude.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the obstacle to real regionalisation is the dreaded “equal access to a common resource” clause? Does he agree that the Minister needs to remove that clause from the regulation?

[Austin Mitchell]

Absolutely. I assume the Minister to be superhuman, and that should be a central point of our negotiations. The intrusion of the European Parliament into co-decision making will make it much more difficult, because there will be all sorts of extraneous interests. It will be interesting to hear the views of Luxembourg on North sea cod quotas, but that is slightly irrelevant to our problem. A lot more conservation interests will intrude into what should basically be fishing decisions.

To make the common fisheries policy work effectively we have to hand more power down to the regional advisory councils, because they are more sensitive to the problems of their area. Those problems include the cod conservation plan, which will be difficult to manage. Frankly, the plan is not successful, but if we adhere to it, it will enforce cuts of some 20% in the total allowable catches, which is nearly impossible for the industry to bear. I hope the Minister will oppose that, because other states certainly will. We cannot preserve a plan that is not working effectively by accepting 20% cuts in the TACs. It is better to rely on scientific advice, which states that the stocks are, in the main, improving. Some of the scientific advice the Commission is getting is fallacious—it seems to me that we have fixed quotas on the basis of saying that there is no scientific advice on stocks such as cod west of Scotland and haddock, whiting and plaice in area VII. Those are all unnecessary because the scientific advice is available, and the stocks will bear increased catches. Let us not follow the EU cod plan, as the co-decision making may force us to do. That should go to the regional advisory council.

[Mr Graham Brady in the Chair]

The Government have been criticised for missing the 2012 deadline for designating 127 marine conservation areas, and I do not blame them for that. They are right to miss that deadline, and I am happy about it, because it is impossible to fix those areas without first agreeing a firm code of conduct, as the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations has argued. I would not want the marine conservation areas to become yet another restriction on fishing quotas and catches, making the whole area a patchwork quilt of different requirements. We need a good, tough code of conduct before we define the areas.

Discards have been turned into a major issue by Mr Fearnley-Whittingstall’s brilliant, entertaining film. He argues that the ban operates in Norway, but of course Norway does not have the same mixed fishing that we have, so it is easier to enforce discards. From talking to Norwegians, I know that the discard ban is not perfect; discards are still going on in Norwegian waters. The only way to approach this is as the industry has approached it. We have reduced discards by some 50% over 10 years, which can be done only through further measures on selective gear. We cannot have a total ban on discards without fitting every vessel with closed circuit television to see what they are catching and what is happening to it. Policing on that basis would be impossible. There may be a case for requiring everything to be landed and sold—not for landfill, which is silly, but at no great return to the skipper concerned. A total ban, as defined by the Commission, is going to be impossible for several years.

Finally, I do not want to approach the emotional relationship between Scotland and England on the mackerel situation—we have just been passing notes about that here. I can understand the anger of Scottish fishermen about Iceland and the Faroes—but I am more sympathetic to the Icelandic point of view than might be good for my health if I ever go to Scotland. First, for a long time Iceland and the Faroes were in a weak position in the negotiations on fixing the quotas, and their catches needed to be increased. Secondly, the stock is going north with global warming, so there are more mackerel in Icelandic waters for Iceland to catch. Thirdly, the situation is eventually going to be solved by negotiation, so let us get the negotiations, which broke off in October, going again. We should not impose sanctions, because Icelandic fish are our lifeblood in Grimsby. They are all that supplies the market. If the Minister goes along with a ban or some kind of discrimination against Iceland, I assure him that he will earn the long-term hatred of every fish and chip shop in the north of England, which is a great burden for anyone to face, so he should not support a ban.

I shall conclude—my time is nearly out anyway—by saying that the Minister has a difficult job, because he has to conciliate support from other areas that do not have the same interest in British fish stocks that we have. That is a process for the current negotiations and for the December Council. He also has to take a firm position on renegotiation to strengthen the British role, British catches and the British industry in the long-term definition of the common fisheries policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). I congratulate the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate. Like them, I have been engaged in debates on fisheries—primarily in the main Chamber, although sadly not on this occasion—for 15 years, although I know that the Member for Aberdeen North has done so for a great deal longer. I therefore approach the debate with a perspective of déjà vu, as we go over the same subjects time and again.

Last week, I met the chief executive and others from the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations in Portcullis House. I asked him to reflect on the past decade or so and what is different now. Is it simply that we all trundle out each year and say the same things, then trundle back until next year, when we say the same things again? He said what I remember repeating some 10 or 15 years ago: the essential need for fishermen and scientists to work together a great deal more. When I was on the Select Committee on Agriculture, as it was then known, we went to Spain and saw the stark difference between how this country managed its fishing industry and how the Spanish managed theirs: instead of fishermen and scientists being at loggerheads as they were in this country, in Spain they were working together and ensuring that the fishery was evidence-based.

To take fisheries policy forward, there are a number of building blocks in terms of the powers in the UK and those we are trying to influence in Europe, as is repeated year on year. As I think we all agree, some of the blunt instruments that underlie the failed common fisheries policy need to be put aside and replaced by themes such as the essential importance of scientists and fishermen working closely together, regionalisation and, in my view, greater emphasis on closed-area satellite surveillance and other forms of enforcement to achieve the necessary progress. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), who is no longer in his place, proposed an alternative way forward that requires engagement with fishermen. I notice that he went out of his way, for one moment, to criticise Conservative-controlled Cornwall council and how it is managing fisheries. I have to say that I thoroughly endorse that sentiment.

[Sheryll Murray]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew George]

Of course. I thought that might provoke my hon. Friend.

[Sheryll Murray]

Will my hon. Friend clarify his remarks and explain how Cornwall council is responsible for managing fisheries? The inshore fisheries and conservation authority may be responsible for managing fisheries eventually, but I know of no committee on Cornwall council at the moment with fisheries management powers.

[Andrew George]

I will gladly respond. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon made the remarks, and he was critical of the local authority. The IFCA is the level at which the local authority engages with fisheries, in particular on under-10s, but there are many other ways to influence fisheries in Cornwall, such as planning, transport and other council functions. I simply want to put on record which party leads that local authority.

A number of issues have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) raised the important issue of the mackerel quota and the risk of losing some of it, in the absence of any consultation with the industry. The mackerel hand-line sector has the lowest possible effect on the fishery—anything below size or over quota, because it is a pelagic fishery, gets thrown back and lives. It is the most primitive method of fishing, and it only has 0.83% of the total UK quota. The Marine Management Organisation is considering removing some of that quota because we have had a couple of years of low stocks in the area, not through overfishing but simply because migratory patterns change from time to time. In fact, the ability to switch that quota to cod and other species that are abundant in our waters is an important part of the method by which inshore fishermen manage their fishery. The Minister has had a letter from me on the subject, so I hope that he will consider it.

The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) mentioned the spurdog as a by-catch inshore. A number of fishermen in my constituency— I wrote to the Minister on behalf of Chris Bean of Helford, for example—have been affected in exactly the same way by the unavoidable by-catch of spurdog, for example. Working with scientists, we need to find ways to avoid those by-catches. If the fish are caught and not going to live, clearly there should be an agreeable method of landing them, if it were possible to distinguish between intended and unintended by-catch, which I know is an issue of which the Minister and others are seized.

On the annual round, the Cornish Fish Producers Organisation echoes many of the sentiments of the NFFO, because many of the country-wide issues also affect the country of Cornwall, but in spades. Cornwall has an ultra-mixed fishery, so evidence-based policy is fundamentally important in applying quota systems to it.

The Minister should also take into account recreational sea anglers, who are not properly represented and have no one to sponsor their activity, which is important to tourism. In that regard, Malcolm Gilbert and John Munday from my constituency have emphasised the need to ensure that we strike a balance in taking policy forward, not only in the IFCAs but throughout the industry.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I am proud to represent Brixham, which lands the highest value catch in England, worth £26 million. I am pleased that the Minister has already visited our fantastic new fish market, and I look forward to welcoming him back next year. He knows how important shellfish are to the industry locally, not only because 99% of scallops are landed for processing in the area, creating local jobs, but because the majority are then exported, adding significantly to our balance of payments.

Scallop fishermen, however, are under considerable pressure. They are regulated not by quotas, but by limitations to their effort through their kilowatt days at sea. They are therefore seeking an increase in the effort available to them in area VII and, as the Minister knows, the French have 5 million unused kilowatt days. Earlier this year some dangerous intimidation of Brixham fishermen occurred around the baie de Seine, arising from French grievance in relation to a closed season that our fishermen do not have to respect. It strikes us, therefore, that there is a lot of room for an arrangement of mutual benefit. I hope that in summing up the Minister will inform us of any progress.

In the next round of negotiations, will the Minister also make representations on behalf of Brixham scallop fishermen for an increase in their effort, which is vital to Brixham’s local economy? Many people will make the case that scallop dredging is too environmentally damaging. I receive letters and e-mails saying that we should abandon it in favour of diver-caught scallops, but they would then be wholly unaffordable for most people, and that would completely destroy an industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), who is no longer in his place, referred to the work of Callum Roberts. Anyone who has read his moving work, “The Unnatural History of the Sea”, will know that another way forward, which we are adopting, is to find areas of sanctuary.

In my area, there is a proposal for a large marine conservation zone of about 250 sq km, to be known as the Skerries. That will join a special area of conservation and will become a very large area. I welcome MCZs, but my concern is that we already have a successful inshore potting agreement in that area. Those who are part of the potting industry and use static gear in that area already operate in an environmentally sustainable way under that agreement. Understandably, they are worried about the impact. If it is too restrictive, and the area becomes a no-take zone, not only would that be unnecessary, it would destroy their industry. Will the Minister update those in my constituency who use static gear on the likely management arrangements in the proposed MCZ? The areas and their management will be announced next year.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does my hon. Friend agree that sometimes a scallop dredger will stir up feed to attract other fish, and that it does not always destroy the ground?

[Dr Wollaston]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. We all want scallop dredging to be removed from environmentally sensitive parts of the sea bed, but that should not be overly restrictive, and I agree that we do not want people to have a blanket idea that all scallop dredging is terrible if we want people to be able to afford scallops, and the industry to be maintained. My hon. Friend made the fantastic point that the issue is not just about conserving fish; it is about conserving our fishing communities, which are so vital in all coastal areas.

In closing, I pay tribute to Brixham coastguard, which is due to close, to its work on behalf of communities, and to all those whom they have helped to keep safe at sea.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

This has been a fascinating debate, and I have little to add, particularly after my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) presented such a comprehensive set of issues that the under-10-metre fleet in particular must address. I would like to make two points. They have been made before, but I want to assert them on behalf of Ramsgate fishermen, and on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), who unfortunately is not well today. We have similar and common issues.

First, Hastings and Ramsgate have put a proposal to the Minister for a non-sector sustainable fisheries pilot to include technical measures, effort control and a no-discard policy, reflecting the need for regional management and smaller fishermen’s concerns about the centralised, inaccurate and sometimes prescriptive quota system.

The second issue that we are concerned about, particularly in Ramsgate—it is welcome in many ways—is the offer by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to set up an under-10s producer organisation. That is an important initiative to take forward. However, DEFRA must realise that the under-10s do not have the same organisational capacity, and it will be challenging for them to set up a sophisticated business organisation.

Without reducing the enthusiasm that under-10 fishermen have for the concept, DEFRA should put in place some business management support to put together the concept, and some support for the individuals who take on the leadership role, not as a professional job, unlike producer organisations today, but as part of running a small business. They take time out of that work, and I would like some support to ensure that the Minister’s vision and our enthusiasm for it becomes reality.

My last point, which hon. Members today have made, is that it is crucial that we bottom this out. Meetings that I have attended in Brussels reveal that Britain need not be so diffident about owning quota. The quota is owned by this country, not the people who have assumed rights and purchase.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does my hon. Friend agree that that quota was provided to British fishermen free of charge, and that only the buying and selling of quota and the introduction of fixed quota allocation units has led us to the disastrous situation for the under-10-metre fleet?

[Laura Sandys]

I thank my hon. Friend who, as we all know, has huge experience in this area. I totally agree with her. We must rectify the situation. I have asked questions about this at meetings in Brussels, and was told that other countries do not have the same regime, and that the state owns the quota and distributes it to those who fish and those who are in the trade. I urge the Minister to use the precedent internationally and throughout Europe to ensure that he is successful in regaining control over that quota, and that it is used by those whose livelihoods depend on fishing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harris]

That is a perfectly valid concern. I am sure that the Government and the fisheries producer organisations have made those calculations, although I do not have access to that information. It must be considered if we are to go down that road, and I am sure that we all hope that that solution—if it is a solution—can be avoided.

Smaller inland fishing vessels make up three quarters of the UK’s fishing fleet and employ nearly two thirds of all full-time workers, but they are restricted from catching more than 4% of the UK fishing quota.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it was his party’s introduction of fixed quota allocations and lack of action to address the situation that has created the difficult problem that the Minister is now trying to address?