Renters (Reform) Bill (Third sitting)

Siobhain McDonagh Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 16th November 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Helen Morgan]

Q Do you think that both tenants and landlords are adversely impacted by that, or is it more the tenants or more the landlords?

Nimrod Ben-Cnaan: Landlords are beyond my remit—I only represent the other side—but yes, tenants are very much impacted by it. This is something we see, anecdotally, in support of the quantitative evidence that the Law Society has generated. The closure and consolidation of the courts over the last 13 years has been so significant that whenever a court closes, the remaining possession lists in nearby courts get lengthened, so there is an added burden on the remaining courts.

Another big problem in possession cases is that tenants defending possession of their home just do not show up, because they have not been advised early, so they do not know if they should. It could possibly improve their prospects. There is a whole gap in the structure of support for renters that has been missing for several years, and it would be quite simple to replace. You would see the beneficial difference in the medium term.

Richard Miller: Just to reflect on the position of landlords, for the reasons I have explained, landlords have a disadvantage where they are up against an unrepresented tenant. Some landlords are just individuals renting out properties on their own. They may also struggle to find accessible housing advice. They are not generally dependent on the legal aid system, so that aspect is not a problem for them. But some housing firms act for both tenants and landlords, so if they are closing down their housing departments, that may make it more difficult for some smaller landlords to get the advice that they need. The bigger and more commercial landlords will generally have solicitors that they are instructing all the time, so it is less of an issue for them—apart from, as I say, the impact on them of tenants being unrepresented.

[Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)]

Q Can I just say to Nimrod that I am greatly helped by South West London Law Centres in my constituency? I am very grateful for the work they do, particularly at the emergency and routine desk at Croydon county court. I can only imagine what that is like on a daily basis. Lots of very vulnerable tenants turn up with absolutely no advice, and the best advice I give to them is to get there really early and get to the front of the queue. I imagine all sorts of things happen to tenants and landlords in those courts that are not fair or reasonable, but because nobody is represented, or it is very difficult to get representation, it is difficult to avoid that.

On reforming the whole county court system, what can be done other than to resource it better and provide better advice to people? I can only imagine the amount of time-wasting going on because people are desperately in search of help. Currently, at Croydon county court, it takes 16 weeks on average to get a bailiff’s warrant after a possession order is secured. On the other end, we have the local authorities that are desperate to delay for as long as they can, because they do not have anywhere to put people. What is the resolution to that?

Nimrod Ben-Cnaan: It is a tough one, for two reasons. First—this has been mentioned in previous sessions—a separate housing court should probably not be set up. That is partly because if you already have a system that is starved of relevant—mainly judicial—staff and has had its budget starved, creating a separate jurisdiction that would need to have its own of everything makes no sense. The Government are right not to create a separate one. In effect, we have a housing court that works—when resourced—fairly well in the county court. This is something that I have heard Richard talk about before, and certainly we are very strong about that.

Our understanding of where justice begins for people needs to go well beyond the court doors. That is why we keep mentioning the advice sector, legal aid and other measures. I would also include in that public legal education and helping people understand their rights as tenants, which we are not doing nearly enough. Those kinds of support would not necessarily, in themselves, create a more efficient justice system, but they would create the kind of solutions that many people seek in it, rightly or wrongly, and which they could reach elsewhere. I am sure Richard has more on that.

Richard Miller: This is one of the ultimate challenges. If we are being asked how you can improve the situation without quite a bit of significant investment, my answer would be that you cannot. The point—this is so often overlooked—is that if you take that step back, you are still spending the money. You made the point that local authorities have to pick up the burden of homeless families. A bit of early advice to sort out the housing benefit might have meant that the family was never homeless in the first place, with huge savings to the public purse and in relation to pressures on the system. Early advice can stop cases getting to court at all and make sure that cases are better dealt with when they do go to court.

All that investment saves substantial sums. That is even before we get on to housing disrepair, where there is an impact on people’s health and the stress that is caused, which has an impact on the health service as well. There are substantial savings for the health budget in getting these things right early as well. It is penny wise and pound foolish to think we save the money here and to not look at the broader costs that we incur as a result of those tiny savings.

[Matthew Pennycook]

Q There is concern about a number of the either amended or new grounds for possession. I want to ask you specifically about the changes made to ground 14 and what they might mean for courts on the ground—specifically the change in the Bill’s wording from “likely to cause” to “capable of causing”. What do you think that means on the ground? Is there any concern from the point of view of county courts about that change, and is there perhaps a need, if the change is made, for at least guidance to the courts on how you differentiate genuine antisocial behaviour from instances of domestic violence, mental health crises and so on?

Richard Miller: From the Law Society’s point of view, we do not take a view on the specific wording. We note that this is a still a discretionary ground and so the courts have the opportunity to look at all the circumstances and determine what is a proportionate response. That, we feel, gives a degree of protection. Beyond that, we do not have any views one way or the other about the change in the wording there.

Nimrod Ben-Cnaan: We, however, do have quite a few concerns about that, mainly arising around case load, as you will probably recognise from yours in the community. Broadening the definition of antisocial behaviour from “likely to cause” to “capable of causing” nuisance is almost designed to catch out patterns of behaviour that could be interpreted as antisocial but which may, in fact, reflect mental health crises or domestic abuse. It is particularly worrying in situations in which the nuisance is more of a modality, as in the example of a tenant who is a hoarder but whose hoarding affects him alone and is not an environmental menace may be caught up in that ground. It needs a lot of clarification, although we are very glad that it is a discretionary ground.