Armed Forces (Prevention of Discrimination)

John Bercow Excerpts

Wednesday 5th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con)]

In opposing this measure, I feel that I should declare an interest. I spent 18 years in the regular armed forces. I also spent 17 years in the reserves—not doing very much, I should add. I am delighted to say that I receive a military pension. As they say in Tesco’s, “Every little helps”, and actually it does quite a lot to help, so I am very grateful for it. So I have some sympathy with what the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) has been saying.

I should like to describe some of my experiences in the armed forces. Was I discriminated against? Yes, I was. I was at university at the time when the war memorial in St Giles in Oxford was covered in red paint just after Bloody Sunday. The truth is that the soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday behaved very badly. I think we all know that. They did not cover themselves in glory. In Hong Kong more recently, I remember seeing a big sign outside a club saying, “No squaddies”. I think we did actually get in, but I was very upset for my soldiers, who were not allowed in. That was quite wrong.

As a Minister, I remember writing to more than one person who had refused to serve soldiers, sailors or airmen—and women, for that matter—or discriminated against them in some other way. I was proud to wear the uniform, but for a lot of my time in the Army, I was unable to wear it because of security threats. I know that other hon. Members sitting in the Chamber today will have been in the same predicament.

My question to the hon. Gentleman is: do we really need more legislation? What is the problem that he is trying to solve? He mentioned the Army cadet who had a blowtorch used against him. The person who did that is quite rightly being hunted, and I hope that he will be caught. Funnily enough, it is already against the law to use a blowtorch on somebody, so I do not think we need more legislation on that issue. The hon. Gentleman’s point about reservists is a good one. However, I understand that the Ministry of Defence is tackling that problem with employers—the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who is sitting on the Front Bench, will correct me if I am wrong—and it is important that we should do that. So what is the problem that we are trying to solve?

Typically, this kind of discrimination is aimed at keeping the “rude, licentious soldiery” out of pubs. I think that that was Shakespeare’s term—you will correct me if I am wrong, Mr Speaker. Actually, from time to time the soldiery—and even, dare I say it, the officers—are rude and licentious. [Interruption.] I am pleased to hear the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) saying that that could not happen in Colchester. Sometimes the commanding officer of a battalion or unit will declare a pub out of bounds because they do not want the soldiery—or the sailors or the aircraftspeople—to go into it, because they know that they could end up having scraps. That is just a fact. Not everyone likes people in uniform, but I do not think it is up to us to tell them that they have to like them.

So, do we need this Bill? The armed forces have never been more respected, over the course of my lifetime, than they are now. I am delighted by that. I do not know whether other hon. Members have visited the moat around the Tower of London, but I went there today. It was a moving sight, although I did not feel the need to take a photographer with me and to weep, as Mr Farage did. The number of people visiting it reveals the respect that our armed forces command.

We also have the military covenant. As I recall, the hon. Gentleman was involved with the Bill that brought the covenant into law. The whole point of it was that no one should suffer disadvantage for being a member of the armed forces. We have ensured that the genuine disadvantage in relation to education and health, for example, has now ceased to exist. I put it gently to the hon. Gentleman that we need to alter attitudes. However, I do not believe that in this case it would be appropriate to use the heavy hand of legislation and of litigation, which inevitably follows—unless we want to pay lawyers’ fees.

I know the hon. Gentleman and he may be surprised to hear me say that I quite like him. [Hon. Members: “Ah!”] I am sorry. That will ruin his career. I believe that his heart is in the right place, but I do not believe that our proud soldiers, sailors and airmen and women would want to be patronised in any way. They do not want to be pitied; they want to be respected, and every one of us and every member of our society should be respecting them. The Bill’s plea for special treatment would not be particularly wanted by the armed forces. Most of them would look quizzically at it and think, “What’s all this about then?” Some of them, rude and licentious, might then go down the pub and get into a scrap.

In conclusion, I was refused service in Springfield road when I went to buy some mustard by Kelly’s corner. I was cross because we needed some mustard. Kelly’s corner is on the junction of Springfield road and Whiterock road, but I think Kelly’s has been knocked down. The shopkeeper would not serve me, so I asked why. The answer was, “Because you’re a soldier.” So I remained in the shop with my soldiers and said, “I am not leaving until your serve me.” He did so in the end, because it was more trouble to get me out than to serve me—he may have even given me the mustard. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen deserve the respect of everyone in society, but they do not want to be singled out and patronised, in any way.

[Mr Speaker]

The House will take its own view on the matter. I simply recall that the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) was a soldier for at least 15 years, but I cannot believe that he was ever either rude or licentious. The thought simply does not occur. [Interruption.] The Minister does not seem quite so convinced.

Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Thomas Docherty, Ms Gisela Stuart, Ian Murray, John Woodcock, Andy Sawford, Bob Stewart, Conor Burns, Mr Russell Brown, Graham Jones, Gavin Shuker and Jim Shannon present the Bill.

Thomas Docherty accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 21 November, and to be printed (Bill 115).