Finance (No. 2) Bill Debate

Full Debate: Read Full Debate
Department: HM Treasury
James Wild Portrait James Wild
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, despite the chuntering that we hear from the Minister. The welfare bill is predicted to rise to £406 billion over the forecast period. The Chancellor keeps saying that she is fixing welfare. Where? What is she doing? She had to back away from very modest savings. We have identified £23 billion-worth of welfare savings, and the Minister could make those if he wished, but he does not, and that is why growth has once again been downgraded. The Chancellor boasts about beating the forecast last year. Well, the forecast at the beginning of the year was 2%, and the Government failed to get anywhere near 2%. They beat the downgraded forecast, so let us not hear any more about that. We want to hear what the Government will do to drive growth, and taxing the people generating it is precisely the wrong thing to do.

New clause 10 requires the Chancellor to review the UK carbon border adjustment mechanism. We debated CBAM extensively in Committee, and it is dealt with in a great swathe of the Bill—in the schedules—but there is plenty more to come. Given the complexity of the policy, many industries believe that the absence from the Bill of a formal oversight and review process is a serious mis-step that needs to be addressed.

There are many potential pitfalls in this new mechanism. First, the measure fails to consider several sectors that are at significant risk of carbon leakage, such as chemicals and refining. Secondly, the Government have decided to link the UK and EU emissions trading schemes. Following the announcement of that alignment, the price of carbon in the UK more than doubled, which cost our economy about £5 billion. We should be reducing the burden of carbon taxes on business, not increasing them. The EU has yet to publish its benchmark beyond 2030, which means that the UK would be signing up to a system that would effectively give Brussels a blank cheque. Moreover, CBAM does not address issues with carbon leakage in export markets. There are proposals to exempt our manufacturing exports from UK ETS costs and CBAM to make the industry more competitive, putting it on a level playing field internationally. Has the Minister considered maintaining long-term free allowances for products destined for the export markets? Given those complexities—I could go on about them more, but the Minister gets the gist—[Hon. Members: “More!”] It seems that other Members may want to come in on this issue.

I think that the Minister should recognise the value of regular reviews. I know he will say that the Government keep all taxes under review, but let us have an actual review that is published, so that we can see what is happening. I encourage Members to support new clause 10.

This is a Finance Bill full of tax increases that break trust with the British people. The Labour Government have introduced the family farm and business tax, frozen personal thresholds, hiked taxes on savers and investors, cut relief on employee ownership trusts, taxed inheritance pensions, taxed taxis—we discussed that in Committee—and increased gambling, alcohol and other duties and environmental levies. The list goes on and on. There is 534 pages-worth, which I could read out if there were any appetite for it. Our amendments and new clause would back the taxpayers, and the investors and businesses trying to drive growth in our economy, and I urge Members to support them.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
- View Speech - Hansard - -

I rise to support the legislation. In particular, I want to talk about new clause 4.

I have to admit that I am a terrible person to go shopping with. [Laughter.] Wait for it. I grew up in a household where my dad used to stockpile copies of “Which?”. In the family, it was drilled into me that you had to seek advice; you could never just buy things. Pity my poor partner on the occasion when we went to try and buy a sofa; it was a very long, drawn-out day. I was taught the value of information and advice in making good choices in life—although I do not claim always to have followed that teaching—because it is easy to rip people off and mislead them, and there are people who will exploit misinformation to cause harm to others for their own financial gain. It is difficult for individual consumers to fight that, but collectively, with good regulation, we can make an economy work well.

New clause 4 is about good advice empowering consumers to make good choices. I welcome clauses 156 and 157, and the work that the Government are doing to crack down on organisations that promote harmful tax avoidance schemes. We have all seen the companies that promote schemes to avoid paying tax, often to the elites—one can only think of Jimmy Carr, and what he must be thinking at this point in time.

Banning the promotion of tax avoidance schemes that have no realistic prospect of working is the right thing to do because it is causing harm, but I am not here to play a violin for the elites; I am here to bang the drum for the millions of people who are being harmed, but who have not yet had the same level of attention. Elite companies might be promoting tax avoidance schemes for an elite group of people, but online there are hundreds, if not thousands, that are now doing it for the masses, causing financial detriment and harm to our constituents as a result. I would argue that this is a much greater harm, because these are people with too much month at the end of their money. When they realise the mistake that they have made and how much money they have lost, they do not have the savings to be able to pay the bill.

--- Later in debate ---
Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman
- View Speech - Hansard - - - Excerpts

You would not believe, Madam Deputy Speaker, how far beyond delighted I was when I discovered that I would be stepping in for a colleague on the Finance Bill. I am sure that the House is similarly ecstatic to hear me speak on the Bill. I did a significant number of Finance Bills in my first few years in this place, and I have missed it. I have also missed the former Member for Amber Valley, Nigel Mills, who used to make a speech from the Government Back Benches about something that nobody else had even considered or knew existed. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) is very kindly stepping into his shoes and raising issues relating to gambling tax, which, to be fair, are important. He is asking very important questions, as Nigel Mills used to, about a fairly niche subject. In the light of the hon. Member’s comments about gambling taxation and the black market, it would be great if the Treasury provided updates on how the tax has worked.

In fact, I think the Treasury should generally provide more updates on every tax measure that it implements. If the Treasury says that a tax measure will raise £30 million, it would be helpful for the MPs who sat on the Finance Bill to know whether it did in fact raise £30 million, or if it raised £50 million or £10 million. Then, we could make better decisions about future tax changes, because we would have a better idea of whether they would achieve the Government’s aims. Successive Governments have been particularly bad at undertaking post-implementation reviews, particularly of tax measures. It would be really handy to see that information more regularly, so that we can make better-informed decisions.

Let me touch on the transparency issues that have been mentioned. Earlier, I raised my concerns about the fact that additional Ways and Means motions were added at this point. I also raised the fact that we do not have oral evidence sessions during the passage of the Finance Bill. I continue to make the case that that could be done after Committee of the whole House. Usually the more technical aspects of Finance Bills are considered in a Public Bill Committee in a Committee Room, rather than in a Committee of the whole House in the Chamber.

The Minister said that some Government amendments had been tabled following stakeholder feedback—particularly through written evidence—to clarify the intention of the legislation. The Government had intended to do something, and stakeholders said, “We don’t really understand this; it’s not clear enough. Could you clarify it?”. If the Government had held oral evidence sessions, they may have been able to make those changes in Committee, rather than on Report. I urge them, and any future Government, to consider holding oral evidence sessions. Anyone who has been on a Bill Committee in which there are oral evidence sessions will understand their great value, and we refer back to them so many times throughout the course of a Committee. There is nothing quite like being able to ask an expert questions, rather than just looking at the written evidence, which is helpful, but it is not the same. We do not remember written evidence in the same way, and we do not have the same ability to probe it.

I want to touch on the four amendments that may be put to a vote. The SNP and I are happy to support new clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy). I was thinking about the history of some “get rich quick” schemes. We had Ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes. The new thing—the Ponzi scheme of the day—is the scheme that says, “This is foolproof. This is failsafe. You are going to make loads of money doing this,” but it is actually unregulated. The new clause would be incredibly helpful. I would have preferred the new clause to say “user-to-user services” instead of “social media”, so that it would cover all the stuff in the Online Safety Act 2023. That covers things that we may not classically define as social media. For example, if somebody gave really terrible tax advice on a money-saving expert forum, would that be included in the definition of social media? Social media is not 100% defined, which is why I would have preferred a different term. However, the new clause is sufficient to cover the majority of people.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Creasy
- Hansard - -

I feel the need to stand up for Martin Lewis, because he is one of the good guys when it comes to advice, and those forums are policed very well. The problem is people exploiting the fact that social media companies also have a vested interest in generating content that goes viral. They are the sole publishers of these videos—they make money from them—that tell people outlandish things that they can do with their taxes. I think we all agree that it is worth looking at the Money Saving Expert forum. I peruse it at length myself, much to the detriment of being able to make decisions.

Kirsty Blackman Portrait Kirsty Blackman
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

It is absolutely worth looking at that forum, but as the hon. Member said in relation to the new clause, people who are promoting schemes with no expectation that they will actually work should not be doing it on money-saving expert forums, or anywhere else. I agree that Martin Lewis has been very clear that he does not give advice online, and that people who, for example, say, “This is a Martin Lewis tip” are lying. It is worth highlighting that the way in which he has chosen to put forward tax advice or information is totally different to the way chosen by the financial influencers referred to in new clause 4. As I said, I am more than happy to support it; I would have just liked it to be wider.

We are happy to support new clause 11 on the uprating of agricultural relief, tabled by the Liberal Democrats. If the new clause and the uprating is not to be implemented, it would be incredibly useful to see the Government’s rationale for why they have chosen not to do annual uprating in a way that would be standard for the majority of other reliefs. What is the logic for that? As I was not on the Bill Committee, I am not as across this part of the Bill as I perhaps should be, so I am not clear what mechanism is in place to uprate the relief. Is it done under the negative or affirmative statutory instrument procedure? Will the House actually see a statutory instrument, or is a delegated authority given to the Minister? It would be helpful to have an idea of what the mechanism is, and whether, if inflation continues at the current rate or goes up again, the Government are likely to put in place an increase to ensure that agricultural relief continues to wash its face—to provide the relief it is supposed to.

--- Later in debate ---
Dan Tomlinson Portrait Dan Tomlinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I will not get into specific worked examples. The general point is that the Government have made changes both to business property relief and to agricultural property relief, in order to raise additional revenue from the very wealthiest estates. We have sought to do that because we want to put fairness into our tax system.

The CBAM was mentioned by the Opposition, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid and South Pembrokeshire (Henry Tufnell). I thank him for his strong advocacy for his constituency, and the thousand people who work in the refinery there. The Government said at the Budget that we recognise the important role that refineries play in our energy security, and we are now considering the feasibility and impact of including refined products in the CBAM in future. It is very complicated, and there would be knock-on impacts on other sectors if the Government were to proceed with that. I have met representatives from the sector recently, and I will continue to engage with them.

Finally, I turn to new clause 4, which requires the Chancellor to report on how the regulations in the prohibition address the harm to individuals and businesses from online tax avoidance promotion, and the steps that His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs should take to inform the public of the risk posed by online tax avoidance. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Ms Creasy) for raising the important issue of avoidance promotion. I agree with her that it is appalling that these individuals promote tax avoidance schemes and get away with it. It causes misery to those caught up in the schemes, and deprives our public services of vital revenue. The Government are taking action via this Finance Bill to crack down on them.

I confirm to the House that the measures introduced in clauses 156 to 162 apply equally to those promoting avoidance schemes online, including on social media, and to those promoting them through more traditional routes. I can also confirm that the promoter action notice in clauses 163 to 173 will also apply.

I would also like to reassure my hon. Friend that we are publishing guidance on these matters, and I will ensure that it is clear throughout that the Government’s intention is to capture anyone who is promoting tax avoidance. This includes social media influencers who are making a monetary gain through clicks, as highlighted by my hon. Friend, and I would welcome her engagement in developing the guidance.

Stella Creasy Portrait Ms Creasy
- Hansard - -

I thank all the MPs across the House—except those in the obvious party—who understand the risks to our constituents from this advice. It is very welcome to see a Government respond so quickly to social media problems, unlike the last one; we remember payday lending and the “buy now, pay later” lenders. The Minister talks about issuing guidance. Does he have a rough timeline for when that guidance will be available? I guess what I am really asking, on behalf of the millions of people who have been ripped off, is when Samuel Leeds will get a knock on the door from the taxman.

Dan Tomlinson Portrait Dan Tomlinson
- Hansard - - - Excerpts

I look forward to working with my hon. Friend, and other Members who are interested in this topic, to make sure that we move as quickly as we possibly can. Let me thank all Members for their contributions during this this debate.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 5 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 6

Offshore income gains: savings

“(1) This section applies in relation to an offshore income gain arising to the trustees of a settlement in a case where Chapter 2 of Part 13 of ITA 2007 (transfer of assets abroad) applies in relation to that gain for the tax year 2025-26 or any subsequent tax year because of the amendments made by section (Offshore income gains).

(2) If the offshore income gain arose in a tax year before the tax year 2025-26 and, by reason of that offshore income gain or a part of it, an offshore income gain was treated as arising in a tax year before the tax year 2025-26 to an individual under paragraphs (2) to (5) of regulation 20 of the Offshore Funds (Tax) Regulations 2009 (S.I. 2009/3001)—

(a) Chapter 2 of Part 13 of ITA 2007 is to be treated as not applying in relation to the offshore income gain arising to the trustees or that part of that gain, and

(b) references in section 734 of ITA 2007 to chargeable gains treated as accruing to an individual are to be treated as including the offshore income gain treated as arising to the individual.

(3) An individual is not chargeable to income tax under Chapter 2 of Part 13 of ITA 2007 on income treated as arising to the individual under section 732 of ITA 2007 by reason of the offshore income gain to the extent that the income, without the amendments made by section (Offshore income gains)(1) and (2)(b)—

(a) would have been treated as arising to that individual under paragraphs (2) to (5) of regulation 20 of the Offshore Funds (Tax) Regulations 2009 (S.I. 2009/3001), and

(b) would have been non-chargeable income (see subsections (4), (5) and (6)).

(4) The income would have been non-chargeable income if, without the amendments made by section (Offshore income gains)(1) and (2)(b)—

(a) the income would have been treated as arising by reason of—

(i) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual before 6 April 2008 with an offshore income gain arising on or after 6 April 2025, or

(ii) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual on or after 6 April 2025 with an offshore income gain arising before 6 April 2008, and

(b) paragraph 100 of Schedule 7 to FA 2008 would have applied to the income.

(5) The income would have been non-chargeable income to the extent that, without the amendments made by section (Offshore income gains)(1) and (2)(b), it would have exceeded the relevant proportion of income—

(a) which would have been treated as arising to the individual by reason of—

(i) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual on or after 6 April 2008 with an offshore income gain arising on or after 6 April 2025, or

(ii) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual on or after 6 April 2025 with an offshore income gain arising on or after 6 April 2008, and

(b) to which paragraph 101 of Schedule 7 to FA 2008 would have applied,

and, for that purpose, “relevant proportion” has the meaning given by sub-paragraphs (9) to (18) of paragraph 126 of that Schedule as they would have been modified by sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 101 of that Schedule.

(6) The income would have been non-chargeable income to the extent that, without the amendments made by section (Offshore income gains)(1) and (2)(b), it would have exceeded the relevant proportion of income—

(a) which would have been treated as arising to the individual by reason of—

(i) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual on or after 6 April 2008 with an offshore income gain arising on or after 6 April 2025, or

(ii) the matching of a capital payment received (or treated as received) by the individual on or after 6 April 2025 with an offshore income gain arising on or after 6 April 2008,

(b) to which paragraph 102 of Schedule 7 to FA 2008 would have applied, and

(c) to which paragraph 101 of that Schedule would not have applied,

and, for that purpose, “relevant proportion” has the meaning given by sub-paragraphs (4) to (7) of paragraph 127 of that Schedule as they would have been modified by sub-paragraph (4) of paragraph 102 of that Schedule.

(7) Subsection (3) does not prevent Chapter 2 of Part 13 of ITA 2007 from having effect as though the income not chargeable to tax under that subsection had been charged to tax under section 731 of that Act.

(8) Accordingly—

(a) in the application of section 733(1) of ITA 2007 to the individual for subsequent tax years, the amount of that income will be deducted at Step 2 and at paragraph (a) of Step 5, and

(b) in the application of section 733(1) of ITA 2007 to any other individual for subsequent tax years, the amount of that income will be deducted at paragraph (b) of Step 5.

(9) In section 733 of ITA 2007, after subsection (2D) insert—

“(2E) See subsections (7) and (8) of section (Offshore income gains: savings) of FA 2026 (offshore income gains: savings relating to amendments made by section (Offshore income gains) of that Act) for special provision about income that is treated as arising under section 732 but that is not chargeable to income tax under subsection (3) of that section.”

(10) This section—

(a) is to be treated as having come into force on 6 April 2025;

(b) has effect for the tax year 2025-26 and subsequent tax years.” —(Dan Tomlinson.)

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 7

Pensions: abolition of the lifetime allowance charge

“(1) Paragraph 134 of Schedule 9 to FA 2024 (power to make further provision in connection with the abolition of the lifetime allowance charge) is amended as follows.

(2) In sub-paragraph (2)—

(a) for paragraph (b) substitute—

“(b) have effect for the tax years 2024-25 and 2025-26 (as well as subsequent tax years);”;

(b) in paragraph (d), at the end insert“(including any provision that could be made under paragraph 133)”.

(3) In sub-paragraph (3) omit “that increase any person’s liability to tax”.

(4) In sub-paragraph (4), for “5 April” substitute “30 June”.” —(Dan Tomlinson.)

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 11

Uprating of allowance amounts for agricultural property

“The Chancellor of the Exchequer must, within six months of the passing of this Act, undertake and publish an assessment of the potential merits of uprating annually the relief allowance amount for agricultural property by the change in the value of agricultural land.”—(Charles Maynard.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.