Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Debate between Stephen Mosley and David Hanson

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Let me begin by thanking the Minister for the discussions in which he has engaged outside the Chamber with Opposition Front Benchers, namely my right hon. Friends the Members for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) and for Leigh (Andy Burnham), and me. We have greatly appreciated those discussions, and, like the Minister and, I am sure, many other Members, we welcome the Bill.

The events at Hillsborough 23 years ago were a tragedy of monumental proportions. The lack of justice for the families and friends of the 96 victims sits heavily on all Members of this place, and indeed on the great city of Liverpool, which I am proud to say is the city of my birth. Constituents of mine died at Hillsborough. I know of the problems that the families have experienced since then, and the pain that it has brought them. The campaign for justice has been long fought, over many years. I recall our debate early in 1998, to which many Members who are in the Chamber today contributed. We recognise and pay tribute to the campaign for justice and for the families, and today we will help it to proceed to a conclusion.

Let me again place on record my sincere thanks to the Right Rev. James Jones and the Hillsborough panel, who have done such important work to enable us, by means of the Bill and other measures, to right some of the many wrongs that have been perpetrated over those 23 years. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh for leading that process in government, and for not abandoning it in opposition. I think it is telling that every Member representing the city of Liverpool was present for the Minister’s speech today, and that so many Members on both sides of the House representing the north-west and, indeed, other parts of the United Kingdom are present for the debate.

[Stephen Mosley]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the cross-party nature of what has happened since 2010, when the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) took action to enable the independent panel to sit, has shown the House operating at its absolute best, and that more has been achieved for the victims of Hillsborough since then than was achieved in the preceding 20-odd years?

[Mr Hanson]

I hope it can be said that death does not bear a party banner, and that the tragedies faced by many of my constituents and those of other Members throughout the House have led us to take action that will achieve the justice that they seek, the justice that they want, and the justice for which they have fought in the face of the lies that have been perpetuated in the community around them for so many years.

We should recognise that the Bill is one step—albeit a small step—towards our achieving justice for the 96 families, their friends, their relatives, and the many people who were injured on that day; but we should also recognise that that journey towards justice is far from over. As we have heard today, the Attorney-General is considering whether there should be a fresh inquest. We certainly want to see the verdicts of the original inquest crushed, and we want the Director of Public Prosecutions to review as a matter of urgency evidence relating to the important matters that occurred that day. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is, of course, already looking into the conduct of police officers.

The Bill is part of the process of securing justice for the relatives, friends and families, but it is only part of that process. Justice will not be achieved until all the matters to which I have referred have been dealt with to the satisfaction of the families, in line with the Hillsborough panel’s recommendations.

Based on the report, the IPCC wants to look into two potential criminal and misconduct issues. First, it wants to examine the conduct of the police on 15 April 1989, addressing the culpability of the individuals and organisations involved and the safety standards, planning and operational decisions of that day that led to the Hillsborough disaster. Secondly, an equally important, but perhaps even worse, series of incidents is being examined: the evidence suggesting a cover-up in the weeks, months and years after the disaster. Of the 164 statements taken by officers on that day, no fewer than 116 were changed in some way, shape or form. That is deceit on a huge scale and we need to get to the bottom of it for the sake not only of the integrity of the police, but of justice for the 96.

I thank the Home Secretary for having listened to the concerns expressed by the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford about the powers available to the IPCC. It must have the tools it needs to carry out a thorough investigation into both allegations of criminality and misconduct and the events of the day. The families who have campaigned for that—as well as for the inquest, for the quashing of the verdicts and for the Director of Public Prosecutions to review the evidence—demand no less.

My right hon. Friend called in October for the inquiry to have those powers, because she recognises that it must get to the bottom of why so many police statements were altered. Although the IPCC can pursue officers it believes to have committed crimes, it does not at present have powers to compel serving or former officers to be interviewed as witnesses; nor can it compel civilians to give evidence. Those obstacles must be removed, and the Bill achieves that. What consultations did the Minister have with the families prior to the publication of the Bill, and does he intend to have further discussions with representatives of the families in the next few weeks?

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) has said, the Home Affairs Committee welcomes the Bill. It has also made some helpful comments, and I hope the Minister will reflect on them. It is clear that the IPCC does not have the powers it needs to meet the objectives it has set itself. Indeed, it has informed the Home Affairs Committee that

“where police officers refuse to attend for interview, IPCC investigators can only seek the information they need through the submission of written questions to officers via their solicitors or other representatives. Not only can this seriously undermine public confidence in IPCC investigations, it can also impact on the overall effectiveness and timeliness of investigations.”

Clause 1 will remedy that, and I welcome it.

There is a separate issue. My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has rightly asked Lord Stevens to address in his independent review for our party whether there should be a new police standards body and to look at the role of the IPCC going forward. That is a debate for another day, but as the Minister has recognised, in the longer term we will need to put in place a strong body to provide the safeguards and standards required to hold the police to account. That will take time, however, and the friends and families of the victims and the communities of Merseyside, Liverpool, my area of north Wales and beyond demand that we have early action. That is why this Bill is before us today.

Police (Complaints And Conduct) Bill

Debate between Stephen Mosley and David Hanson

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

I want to raise a couple of issues. I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) that our Second Reading debate served to provide an eloquent account of the context and importance of the Bill, so I shall not repeat any of those themes, but let me repeat, as I never tire of doing, my personal tribute to the families of the 96. As I said before, they should think of this as their Bill.

Our amendment was designed to be a probing amendment, and again I thank the Minister for his response to my letter yesterday. With your agreement, Mr Evans, I shall just ask a few further questions and I hope the Minister will help the Committee by answering them. He said that effective sanctions are available to deal with those officers who do not wish to attend. The question we seek to ask through this amendment is this: to whom are those sanctions available? From what he has said, I take it that they are available to the officer’s force, but we are trying to push for them to be available to the IPCC. What we are doing here is giving the IPCC sufficient powers to make the necessary investigations, so my question to the Minister is this: how will the Government ensure that the IPCC has effective sanctions to deal with those who do not wish to attend?

Arising from that is my second question: is deferral to the police force in question enough? Does the Minister have any evidence to suggest that that is a sufficient way of approaching this issue? I was helped in my thinking about this amendment, which we tabled in recent days, and here I must thank Sally Lipscombe of the House of Commons Library. She quickly looked up for me the regulations that apply, and it appears to me that there are some questions on which an answer from the Minister would be helpful, not the least of which is the point that I have just made about what evidence there is that such a sanction is enough to compel officers to attend.

Thirdly, what happens once a sanction is applied? How does the interview and the evidence-gathering process then proceed? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) mentioned, we are concerned here with not only those honourable members of police forces who will be happy and keen to co-operate with the IPCC, but those officers whose evidence is vital but who do not wish to co-operate, for whatever reason—they must understand that for themselves in their own heart. If the force in question does choose to use the sanctions, does the IPCC then have sufficient powers available to ensure that the evidence-gathering interview proceeds properly and informs the investigation?

In essence, I wish to probe the answer to the three questions. How will the Government ensure that the IPCC, de facto as much as de jure, has effective sanction to make sure that people attend and give evidence? Is deferral to the force enough? Do we have any evidence that that is enough? If a sanction is applied, what then happens? How does the IPCC make sure that it has sufficient power for evidence-gathering to proceed?

I will not trouble the Committee any further on the issue of retired officers, except to repeat my earlier words of hope and anticipation that, notwithstanding the fact that many retired officers would want to give evidence freely and happily, all retired officers who may add to this investigation and bring about justice in a speedy fashion will find it in themselves to do so.

In conclusion, I just wish to say that although “Justice delayed is justice denied” is a hackneyed old phrase, it could have been written for this debate. So I anticipate speed, as the Minister has suggested, and I thank all Members of this House, not least those on both Front Benches, for their efforts to date.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I want to press the Minister on a couple of points relating to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), which reflects concerns we have put privately to the Minister outside the Chamber about the powers in the Bill. We had concerns about the sanctions available in the event of officers not participating in discussions with the IPCC when requested according to the provisions in the Bill. The Minister has given me some helpful reassurances—I am sure he will do so again today—on the potential sanctions available to police forces under the current legislation. He recently produced the Police (Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations 2012, which relate to the Bill.

I have two questions for the Minister. Can he point out the elements of the draft statutory instrument on the police in England and Wales that he published yesterday that highlight that the sanctions are available to forces? He has outlined that to me privately and I have no doubt that he will do so again today. My cursory reading of the regulations—I accept that it is cursory—shows no mention of sanctions. I accept that provisions are elsewhere in primary legislation, but it would have been helpful to have put in the regulations the sanction we have discussed that is available to police forces.

I want to test the Minister on where the buck will stop ultimately when it comes to exercising the sanctions under other legislation that he has mentioned in our discussions outside the Chamber. We now have police and crime commissioners and chief constables. Where will the buck finally stop on these issues, which are essentially personnel matters? If an officer did not participate in a discussion on a non-criminal matter at the request of the IPCC and the sanctions that the Minister has outlined to me privately and will no doubt outline to the Committee are available, will they be the sole responsibility of the chief constable or could they be overridden by a police and crime commissioner who took a different view? Are these matters operational or strategic?

[Stephen Mosley]

Surely one of the advantages of police and crime commissioners is that we will have someone who is democratically accountable to the people. If a police and crime commissioner tried to override the decision, I am sure that they would feel the full wrath of public opinion.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I think he has missed my point, which is about where the buck stops. This is about the employment terms and conditions of individuals who work in the police service, and if the sanction for not participating in action with the IPCC was dismissal of a police officer, removal of pension or something else under the disciplinary proceedings the Minister has mentioned to me privately, would the chief constable exercise that or could the police and crime commissioner? Would the police and crime commissioner stand aside from the decision or would the chief constable take it alone? I am not trying to complicate matters; I simply want clarity, and this is the time for clarity on the Bill.

If a police and crime commissioner took a different view from the chief constable, where would the buck stop? Is the matter operational? Is it protected, or is it not? That is an important point in achieving clarity, because the Bill is not only about the important matters we are debating on Hillsborough but will be in place for future IPCC investigations until it is amended or repealed. Such investigations might be serious, like Hillsborough, or they might be relatively trivial. I want clarity from the Minister about where the responsibility will lie.