Draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer Of Functions) Order 2018

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 8th May 2018 General Committees

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

It is a great honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher, on this important matter. The draft order continues the long process—too long a process, some would say—of devolving powers from London to Cardiff over the past 21 years. I am sure that the Minister will be delighted to hear that we will not oppose these measures, which will ensure greater devolution to Wales.

Labour is the party of devolution. I was proud to play my full part in the devolution referendum in 1997 as the north Wales campaign co-ordinator. I was proud to vote for the Government of Wales Act 1998 and campaign for additional powers in the successful referendum in 2011. These powers have been a long time coming and it is a privilege to be on this Committee today when these powers will be tidied up and finally devolved.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Many members of the Committee will be intrigued to see measures such as the Conservation of Seals Act 1970 included. We now know that the seals of Wales will be fully devolved.

[Chris Ruane]

Labour seals.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Indeed. One of the things that strikes me about the draft order is the number of references to agriculture. Does my hon. Friend agree that, as we come to the post-Brexit era, it makes more and more sense for measures relating to agriculture to be decided by our devolved Government in Wales?

[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. Agriculture in Wales pre and post Brexit is a top priority. Some 58% of farmers in Wales voted to leave the EU because of the promises that the funds they received on a regular basis from Brussels to the farm gate would be secure. Now they find that will not be the case.

The order represents an important change in the devolution settlement. Although the majority of the functions in it are relatively minor, their transfer to Welsh Ministers represents a significant step forward in matching the legislative competence of the Assembly with the Executive competence of Ministers. What the order does not do, as Labour argued consistently through the passage of the 2017 Act, is create the clarity that the opportunity of a new Wales Act could have provided. The whole period following the Silk Commission’s conclusions has been a missed opportunity by the Conservatives to put Wales on a stable and sustainable footing, consolidate all existing legislation and provide proper alignment.

On this journey, we had the debacle of the St David’s Day process, where the Tories could not get anyone to agree with them, yet persisted in calling it an agreement prior to the initial draft Wales Bill being published in 2016. The 2016 draft Bill was so universally loathed by politicians, academics and lawyers alike that significant changes had to be made before the Bill was introduced in Parliament the following year. We welcome those changes.

The Welsh Labour Government reluctantly recommended a legislative consent motion to the Assembly in 2017—not because the Wales Bill was perfect, but because it represented another step along the road towards the clarity that Wales deserves. That is where this TFO—transfer of functions order—comes in. As I said, it goes some way towards aligning the legislative competence of the National Assembly with the Executive competence of Welsh Ministers.

Of the 47 articles in the transfer order, there are three areas of significance: teachers’ pay and conditions, civil contingencies and elections. On teachers’ pay and conditions, we note the later date of 30 September 2018 for those coming into force. This, I understand, was at the Welsh Government’s request and is to ensure the smoothest possible transition for teachers in Wales when the new school year starts. I thank the Government for listening and for making the amendments proposed by Welsh Ministers.

The transfer of functions to Welsh Ministers in relation to civil contingencies should provide clarity for all those who deal day to day with emergency planning. We believe that will make for a better service response for the public and it is to be welcomed. I recently met the chief fire officer for north Wales, Simon Smith, to discuss fire issues and emergency planning. I pay tribute to all those who protect us in emergency planning and civil contingencies, including the police, fire services, ambulance services, local authorities, the coastguard and the NHS. I am sure they will be pleased with the joined-up approach that we are discussing today.

With respect to elections, we note that the functions will be transferred on a different basis from the other provisions in the TFO. Instead of listing the specific provisions to be transferred, the TFO provides that all functions in certain election-related enactments will be transferred, but only in so far as those functions fall within the legislative competence of the National Assembly. That appears to introduce some uncertainty: it is not exactly clear which functions have been transferred, making the TFO slightly difficult to navigate. We understand that the Welsh Government offered an alternative draft to the UK Government that would have addressed that point. Perhaps the Minister can explain to the Committee why it was thought necessary to proceed on the basis of what we have before us. Why did they not accept the Welsh Government’s proposals?

The final issue is Milford Haven port. The UK Government have compounded their determination to keep control of the port. Will the Minister confirm that they have no plans to privatise the port and will work with the Welsh Government to ensure its continued significant contribution to the economy of west Wales at this significant time, with Brexit looming large over us all?

The transfer of functions is generally to be welcomed. We will not divide the Committee, but I would appreciate if the Minister could shed some light on those issues.

Employment in Wales

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. When Labour reduced VAT, that had a positive effect. All the economic indicators from 2008 to 2010 were going upwards; in June 2010, they started to go down. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) might laugh, but he does not know his economics.

John Cridland added:

“I am particularly interested in the escalator that takes people who are unemployed or low-paid on to better-paid work. Something has gone wrong with it. There are two or three missing steps in the middle.”

The missing steps to which he refers will not be provided by zero-hours contracts, the minimum wage with no prospect of progression and cutbacks in skills and training.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making an insightful, thoughtful and comprehensive speech. Does he agree that another theme related to this issue is instability? Several years ago, I read some of the writings of the Centre for Social Justice, an institution that many people see as tending to favour Conservative thinking, although not exclusively. I was interested that one thing the centre spoke about was how insecurity affects family life. Does he agree that when zero-hours contracts are not a matter of genuine choice and flexibility, they really contribute to insecurity? If we are serious about enhancing family life and stability we have to tackle that.

[Chris Ruane]

I agree entirely. The impact on mental health and well-being can only be detrimental.

Going back to the CBI, I pay tribute to John Cridland. He has made a brave intervention on this matter and I hope the Conservatives heed his wise words.

The next aspect I will look at is the impact of public sector cuts, especially cuts to local government. I have the statistics from the House of Commons Library. English local authorities have had cuts of up to 43%: Kingston upon Thames, Bournemouth, West Berkshire and Brighton and Hove have all had cuts of 43%. Those cuts to local government come from this Tory central Government.

Fuel Poverty (Wales)

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once; that is all he is getting from me.

The Government have introduced the energy company obligation, for which I give them credit, and £1.2 billion has been set aside for the whole of the UK—[Interruption.] I urge the Minister—he is yakking away over there—to ensure that Wales gets its fair share of that ECO money.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I wonder whether the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) was going to point out that the 5% VAT rate for energy came about due to a successful Labour rebellion in the dying days of John Major’s Government. There may be a good analogy there for us in what will hopefully be the dying days of the current Government.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his noise.

Does my hon. Friend agree that this matter is one of the most moral issues because it disproportionately affects people on low incomes and pensioners? That is a really important issue right across Wales.

[Chris Ruane]

Those affected are the most vulnerable and elderly pensioners, and, specifically in Wales, they are also those who are off grid but cannot get connected to gas because of topography, geology or geography. Dyserth is an off-grid town in my constituency. I was successful in getting gas connected to Bodelwyddan, because it was low-lying, but unsuccessful with Dyserth.

As the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said, Wales is a net exporter of energy. North Wales, in particular, is playing its role in renewable energies, and my constituency will have the biggest array of offshore wind farms in the world. I switched on 30 turbines at North Hoyle some eight years ago, and when he was Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) switched on another 30 turbines at Rhyl Flats. Behind those, we will have 200 turbines at Gwynt y Môr and the 2,000 wind turbines at the Rhiannon wind farm array. When I was switching on the North Hoyle turbines, the Prime Minister was describing them as “giant bird blenders”, at the same time as sticking a mini turbine on his own roof in Notting Hill. He was looking both ways.

North Wales has in Wrexham the Sharp solar panel factory, which is the biggest producer of solar panels in western Europe. Sharp made its future plans when Labour introduced the feed-in tariff. It cranked up production and got all the workers in place only for the current Government to say that they were going to scrap the tariff. We and companies such as Sharp need certainty.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Ruane]

I have been interested in this issue since 2001, when my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) informed me that there had been a massive drop in voter registration in 100 constituencies, 90 of which, I discovered when I looked at the figures, were Labour constituencies. Some might say that it was our fault for introducing the changes in 2000.

I have sought to get the facts and figures on this for the past 10 years. I have tabled over 400 parliamentary questions on registration, population size and boundary size, and I have spoken in every debate on the matter in this House. I have come to the conclusion that what is, or was, proposed is a political act to deliver, in the case of the boundaries review and legislation, the 2015 general election, and in the case of individual electoral registration, the three or four elections after that. I hope that we will find out very shortly that it has all come to naught.

The reasons why I say this are many. I wish to compare the attitude of this Government with the attitude of the previous Labour Government. I blame the previous Labour Government, and I do so to their face, for not getting what we thought were 3.5 million missing electors on to the register. It was our fault that we did not do that. However, no one can accuse the previous Labour Government of using our political majority, which was huge, for party political advantage on constitutional issues. One of the first things that Labour did was introduce proportional representation in the European elections. In Wales, we went from having four Labour MEPs to one Labour MEP. We had a majority of 180 back in 1997—such a huge majority that we could have delivered devolution to Northern Ireland, to Scotland and to Wales without PR, but in the interests of fair play and playing properly on the constitution, we introduced PR, which did down Labour’s vote.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is good that my hon. Friend has made that thoughtful mention of Wales. Does he agree that this Bill means that the people of Wales will see a reduction of 10 seats, from 40 down to 30? I would be interested if the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) wished to intervene to say whether he agrees with that, and, if not, how he would explain it to his dwindling electorate.

[Chris Ruane]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to intervene.

Policing (North Wales)

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has raised that subject—something told me it would appear. The position is clear. Before the last election, the Labour Government made it plain that, in common with the police, they would agree to 12% cuts in order to reduce back-office costs. I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to what a future Labour Government may have to do with the so-called deficit plans of this Government, which appear to mean total cuts but very little growth. It would be dishonest of me to offer a prediction in such circumstances, but let me be clear: if there was a Labour Government in office now, we would be sticking to 12%. The hon. Gentleman is incorrect in what he says from his central office crib sheet.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Those calculations of 12% were given at a time when the economy was improving—GDP was going up, unemployment was going down and confidence was going up. At that point, things were on the mend. Since this Government have been in power, they have added an extra £158 billion to the bill. We have to recognise that.

[Susan Elan Jones]

That is absolutely correct. There is no question about what the previous Labour Government did, or about what a Labour Government would do if they were in power now.

The Government speak about back-office costs, but they seem to forget that forensics, family liaison and call-handlers, among others, fall within that definition. Surely no one in the 21st century can define front-line policing as a few Dixon of Dock Greens plodding amiably around the patch. In fact, it seems that everyone, except for the Ministers in charge of the policy, agrees that there is some link between the number of officers available and crime levels. In other words, fewer police officers will find it more difficult to police crime.

If crime increases in the coming months and years, I am sure that it will be blamed on snow, an extra bank holiday, the eurozone or, for all we know, on Britain not quite making it in the Eurovision song contest. The victims of crime, however, will ask why the Government did not listen when the experts told them that a 20% cut was too much. We need to act now to stop that happening.

The only officers whom the Minister seems to think are important are the ones who do not yet exist—the elected police commissioners. There is not one shred of evidence that imposing these outside managers on police forces will cut crime by one iota. The policy is a gimmick, pure and simple. It is totally unfounded on fact or previous best practice. It is not surprising, therefore, that the Police Authorities of Wales has recommended that the establishment of police commissioners—or, in their words, the “bureaucratic web” and a

“poor model of police governance”—

should be deferred. The Government, however, continue to press forward regardless.

The plan will not come free. Incredibly, even though North Wales police, like other police forces, is losing police officers because it has not been given enough funds to pay for them, the Government have still found £100 million—the cost of 600 full-time officers—to pay for these new positions. They argue that the plan will connect the public to the police service, but the idea that the public see more elected officials—bureaucrats by any other name—as the answer to crime, rather than more policemen and women, is totally absurd.

The creation of the new commissioner posts will bring politics into policing like never before, providing yet another difficulty and distraction for chief constables trying to do their jobs to protect law-abiding citizens in the midst of a funding crisis. Operational independence will be threatened as electioneering takes the place of long-term planning. Collaboration between forces could be threatened as commissioners from different political parties prefer to compete with each other, with an eye on the next election. That is not the way to run a police force. I imagine that most of our political parties will field candidates for the positions and that some of the victors will do the best job they can if they are elected, but that is not the point. The point is that the policy itself is a total shambles.

Next week, Parliament will be asked to vote on the police grant report, which will seek to cut a further 7% from North Wales police’s budget—£3.4 million. I see that the Minister appears to be working his electronic device. Perhaps he could throw this calculation in: £3.4 million. North Wales cannot afford these cuts. If we want to support our police and our communities, we must stand up against the reckless cuts that the Government are trying to push through. It would be totally irresponsible to go ahead when officer numbers have already had to fall and when communities are losing their police stations. Instead, our officers should get the backing they deserve and the funding they need to stay in their jobs and do them without interference.

I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us why he thinks he knows better than Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, better than the Association of Police Authorities and better than the Police Federation of England and Wales. I hope that he will tell us what he thinks North Wales police should do differently to avoid losing officers, how they can make our large rural areas more efficient to police and what possible reason Members have for voting through a further 7% budget cut next week. However, I hope even more that Ministers will listen to the evidence and hear how it affects north Wales and other parts of the UK, and that they will have the courage to think again.

High-speed Rail

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones]

I have considerable sympathy for that view, but the difference is that the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field) does not aspire to be Secretary of State for Wales—

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Not yet.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Indeed.

There is a conflict here. I understand that people are likely, as they are entitled, to complain about local developments to which they are opposed, but we need our Government to take a broader national view, and Wales certainly needs a Secretary of State who will do better. That is why I am here to make the case for high-speed rail, and specifically the Welsh case, because I fear that it is not being made by the person whose job it is to do so.

The official ministerial answers on the benefits of HS2 for Wales may be missing, but there is plenty of evidence from elsewhere in Europe with which hon. Members can form their own opinion, such as the case of Lille. In the early 1990s, the French Government chose to divert their high-speed TGV line through Lille, as opposed to using a more direct route through Amiens, because of high unemployment and post-industrial decline in that area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones]

I certainly agree with the hon. Lady. The project will also make her journeys to Wrexham quicker, which I believe is her old home.

[Chris Ruane]

The interventions we have had across the piece seem to show that there is a national consensus for this 21st-century rail project to go ahead. Why does my hon. Friend think there is a delay? Is the reason political?

[Susan Elan Jones]

I would hope not. On HS2, the 2008 Atkins report concluded that a high-speed rail network would deliver more than £60 billion-worth of benefit to the UK economy in its first 60 years. In 2009, the British Chambers of Commerce calculated revenues and benefits to the economy worth £55 billion. The Government’s consultation paper puts the benefits at around £71 billion in revenue and benefits.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Field]

So, doing that in Labour-held seats is acceptable, but not in Conservative-held seats?

[Chris Ruane]

They are not knocking them down in Tory seats.

[Susan Elan Jones]

It is a shame. The hon. Gentleman should have known that I would have said exactly the same had it been in his seat. I am reluctant to take back my earlier compliments for his interventions.

Having overcome the environmental argument, what about the costs of building during the recession? Let us look at the figures. HS2 will cost £2 billion a year during the building phase, which I believe is roughly the same as Crossrail. Construction will start at roughly the same time as Crossrail finishes, meaning that the overall transport budget will stay quite steady, but HS2 will spread jobs and benefits much more widely than Crossrail. Initial estimates predict the creation of 40,000 jobs. Some of those jobs will be in London and the south-east, but many will be spread along the line. Several thousand will be non-permanent construction jobs, but many will be permanent. At a time when the construction industry is struggling, I, for one, would welcome that.

Even if the budget has to stretch to pay for the build, which I do not believe it will, the figures all show that we can expect a return of £2 for every £1 invested in the project. If we think long term, and we should, that is an attractive proposition. If aliens from Mars turned up and heard about a project set to create 40,000 jobs, to link north and south, and to boost our national profile, they might well guess that the Government had decided to subsidise such a project for the public good. I am sure they would be shocked to hear that it was being opposed, despite being set to earn double the original investment. The cost is not a barrier to HS2; the investment is sound. Only the most blinkered, short-term thinking can conclude anything else—the costs add up.

What about the suitability of the UK for a high-speed line? Detractors say that the UK is too small to benefit from high speed, that our country is densely populated and already well-served by lots of railways. However, the distances between our major cities are very similar to those with successful high-speed rail abroad. Frankfurt and Cologne are 110 miles apart, which is the same distance as London to Birmingham. Tokyo and Osaka are 325 miles apart—roughly the same distance as London to Edinburgh.

While it is true that we already have railways, our lines are full. On capacity, fares are going up and up as demand increases, a point raised earlier by the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti). The cost of some season tickets in the south-east rose by almost 13% this year. Anyone who says that HS2 fares will be too high should consider the situation with our existing network. Sir Roy McNulty’s review of fares, published in May, suggested that off-peak fares should rise by 30% “to manage capacity”, as thousands of people pack on to trains with cheaper fares. We are actually having to price people off our trains to prevent them from bursting. That cannot be the right approach. We want to encourage public transport use, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said earlier, not suppress it.

We need more trains, and our existing network cannot provide them. For example, management at the west coast main line, which has recently had a major £10 billion upgrade that caused huge disruption to passengers, has announced that it will be at full capacity again within six to 10 years, even if extra carriages are added. It is not possible just to run more trains: there simply is not enough space. Even though there is the demand for more fast, direct trains up the west coast, the local commuter services and freight trains that use the lines do not leave extra space for the extra trains. We need more capacity. Network Rail has acknowledged that, and it spells it out very simply:

“HS2 solves the capacity problem”.

HS2 not only allows the existing network to operate at full capacity during its construction; it is the only option that will release real, significant extra capacity when in operation. Current services would continue to run on the existing lines, but the high-speed routes would no longer be hemmed in by them. Instead, they would have a free run on the new lines. Towns without HS2 stations will benefit as space for more trains is freed up on existing lines, with less crowding and more services. It is a win-win situation.

North Wales Economy

Debate between Susan Elan Jones and Chris Ruane

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

It is déjà vu all over again. It is back to the future—back to the 1980s, when whole communities were parked by the Conservative Government, who said, “Stay on the dole. Bring your kids up on the dole, and your grandkids as well.” We are only just beginning to unwind 18 years of misrule under the last Tory Government.

We have the facts and figures to prove that the policies we have pursued are working in north Wales. More than 2,000 people went back to work between January and May this year. Our policies are working. We want a continuation of the future jobs fund. The cuts were implemented without even an assessment of whether the programme was successful. Will the Minister guarantee that he will monitor youth employment in north Wales over the next 18 months and that if it starts to rise, he will press for the reintroduction of the future jobs fund? What assessment has he personally made of the effectiveness of the future jobs fund, which has put young people in his constituency back to work?

The previous Tory Administration were riven with factionalism over Europe. We all know what the Tory Prime Minister, John Major, called certain troublesome MPs, so I will not repeat it. Was internal conflict in the Tory party the reason why the Tories failed to engage positively with Europe during the 1980s and 1990s? When they were closing the pits and the steelworks and letting seaside towns rot, they did not even bid for objective 1 funding for Wales. In 1997, when the Labour Government came in, they applied for objective 1 funding, provided match funding and implemented the scheme. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain). At the behest of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), Betty Williams, Gareth Thomas and me, he included Denbighshire and Conwy in the scheme. As a result of that brave decision, which was taken against civil servants’ advice, Denbighshire county council received £124 million in public and private objective 1 funding over a seven-year period. I presume that Conwy received the same.

We have made being in Europe a success for Wales. Labour provided the match funding. Will the Minister assure me and the people of north Wales that during the Con-Dem cutbacks, match funding and convergence funding—the follow-on funding for objective 1—will not be cut back and will be included in the Welsh block? It makes economic sense. For every £1 given by the UK Government, we can draw down £2 or £3 from Europe. North Wales cannot afford cutbacks on that scale.

Will the Minister inform the House why the Tories did not bid for objective 1 funding for parts of Wales earlier, when they closed Shotton steelworks and the pits? Ireland did so and turned its economy into the Celtic tiger. Could Wales have done so in the early ’90s? Will he guarantee that blind prejudice towards Europe will not interfere with negotiations on the next phase of EU funding—tail-off funding, which should come at the end of convergence funding?

Energy, particularly renewable energy, has been a success for Labour in north Wales. Sharp has located its biggest solar panel factory in Europe in Wrexham. The biggest solar panel in the UK is at the Technium OpTIC in my constituency. The Technium OpTIC has just pioneered photovoltaic paint and is working on fission power. We will have the largest array of offshore wind turbines in the world when the Gwynt y Môr wind farm is completed, despite the fact that the leader of the Conservative party has referred to north Wales turbines as “giant bird blenders”. Will the Minister guarantee to give up his personal opposition to the Gwynt y Môr wind farm and promote wind energy in Wales?

Non-renewable as well as renewable energy companies operate in Wales, including BHP Billiton, which is based in Northop, in the constituency of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn. We also have E.ON, which has a gas-powered power station in Connah’s Quay. North Wales has so much energy that we shall be exporting it.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend mentioned that the previous Conservative Government did not claim objective 1 funding. Does he not find it surprising that a former Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), returned to Whitehall money that was due to the people of Wales? Many businesses in north Wales, especially in our villages and small towns, are small businesses. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s changes to VAT will have a devastating effect on such businesses?

[Chris Ruane]

I concur on both points. The right hon. Member for Wokingham returned £120 million to Whitehall while Welsh schools were closing and services were being cut, and the impact of the VAT rise on spending power in the high street will have a devastating effect.

North Wales will be exporting power through the Irish interconnector, from Connah’s Quay power station through Prestatyn in my constituency and over to Ireland. The project is being paid for by Eirgrid.

I highlight the good work of my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who coined the phrase “energy island”. It is not just a phrase; it could become a reality, if the Con-Dem Government do not renege on Labour’s decision to let the replacement of Wylfa proceed. Will the Minister guarantee that his party and his Government will not do a U-turn on the new nuclear plant for Anglesey?