Aleppo/Syria: International Action

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Programme motion: House of Commons
Tuesday 13th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

Yes, I believe that if the Russians could be persuaded at this point that they have nothing to lose from allowing international humanitarian actors into Aleppo, the Syrians would agree. If they do not, the world must ask why they wish to hide from purely humanitarian action.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point about the importance of international pressure. He will have seen as we all did the grotesque story on the front of the Morning Star suggesting that what is happening is the “liberation of Aleppo”. While such scandalous propaganda on behalf of Russia is being put about within the UK, is it not all the more important that we have that international pressure so that we open the eyes of everyone in the world to what is happening?

[Mr Mitchell]

I confess to the hon. Gentleman that the Morning Star is not on my morning reading list. In view of what he has just said, I am most unlikely to add it.

Will the Foreign Secretary commit today to Britain’s using every sinew of the immensely impressive diplomatic machine I described to secure a consensus on those two actions in these last moments for Aleppo?

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[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

I spoke earlier of my experience visiting Sarajevo and Srebrenica two years ago and of the exhibition that I saw, but one thing that will never leave me was entering a musty room in a mortuary where bags full of bodies and skeletons were still being examined 20 years after that crisis. These were people whose graves had been disinterred and attempts had been made to hide the evidence, and their families were still not able to get closure on the atrocities committed at that time, when the world stood by. When I hear the stories of men and boys being disappeared, of summary executions, of mass graves and of attempts to hide the evidence and to kill those who were witnessing the evidence, I have all the same fears that we will be looking in one of those mortuaries 20 years from now, wondering just what on earth we did.

That leads me to reflect on the decisions that we in this House have made. I have to reflect on whether the decision I took in 2013, with other people in this House, was the right one. I sat through that entire debate, and I did not feel that the Government came forward with a comprehensive plan or that they had clarity about where they were going, but I have to accept that our decision may well have been wrong.

I agree with the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne) that the real question was: why did we not act in 2011? Why did we not act right at the beginning of this conflict? Why were we trying to make decisions when already hundreds of thousands of lives had been lost and when already this conflict had spiralled out of control? We have to look at not just one decision, but the collectivity of the decisions that we took over time.

[Toby Perkins]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and for the contribution that he is making. I have felt incredibly proud to listen to many of the speeches that colleagues have made during this debate. I hope and pray that the actions that follow this debate are as great as the speeches. Once this two-hour debate is finished, we will have a five-hour debate on the Neighbourhood Planning Bill. Does he, like me, have a sense of how ludicrous we will look when we are discussing that?

[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely. I also fear that many will ask where the rest of the House is today. Where is the Prime Minister? Where is the Leader of the Opposition? [Interruption.] I know that the Leader of the Opposition was here, but in a such a debate, we should have senior people in our country standing up and taking part and taking responsibility for the decisions of this House.

All our hand wringing will do nothing to solve the problems that we face today and that the citizens of Aleppo face right now.

I wish to turn now to Russia. I agree with much of what my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) said about Russia. We have to end this fetishisation of Russia by both the populist right and the left and make it face up to the consequences of its action. We must stand up against what it is doing and make it recognise that there are consequences for stepping over these lines and that there will be a response. I must ask the Foreign Secretary a sincere question. We have heard the Government say that they have been doing all they can to bring action against Russia, but the EU High Representative, Federica Mogherini, said this week:

“No, we didn’t discuss at all sanctions”—

at the EU Foreign Affairs Council—

“and there was no member state asking for additional work on sanctions”—

against Russia. I would like some clarity from the Foreign Secretary on what efforts have been made on this matter. Those sanctions were having an impact. What other member states support him?

Oral Answers to Questions

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Lady touches on a matter on which I feel I am developing a relationship with the Scottish National party. The United Kingdom and the United States have different relationships with Bahrain in terms of the style, the approach and the strategy that we use to influence countries in the Gulf and to advance the democratic process. We have a closer relationship with Bahrain, in which we can have frank conversations. We might not have put out a press statement on this matter—we might not have made the headlines in that sense—but I can assure her that we are having frank conversations with the aim of improving policing, the rule of law and democratic rights. This is happening; the hon. Lady just does not see it all the time.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

11. What discussions he has had with the incoming US Administration on their policy on article 5 of the NATO treaty.

[The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Sir Alan Duncan)]

rose—

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[Toby Perkins]

I agree with the Foreign Secretary that we should encourage all NATO allies to spend 2% of their GDP on defence, but will the Minister take this opportunity to send a message to President-elect Trump and to President Putin that article 5 is sacrosanct and not in any way conditional on our allies’ spending levels?

[Sir Alan Duncan]

I confirm that we strongly support the leaving in of article 5 as the bedrock of NATO and support NATO as the bedrock of European and wider defence interests.

Yemen

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry]

I applaud my right hon. Friend’s commitment on this issue. I know that he was born in Yemen and that he feels very strongly about it. His approach is, of course, absolutely right: the British and the Americans have a very important influence, although most important of all is the fact that we support the efforts of the United Nations.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Emily Thornberry]

Let me make a little progress, and then I will give way.

Let me make it clear that this debate and today’s motion are not about the causes of the conflict or whether it is justified. Today’s debate is about the grave concerns that many Members of all parties share about the way in which the conflict is being conducted and whether those concerns are being taken seriously.

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[Toby Perkins]

My hon. Friend has moved on from the point I wanted to raise, but I thank her for giving way. She said that whatever people think about the origins of the conflict, we can debate how terrible the situation is for Yemenis on the ground, and I agree entirely. Is there any debate, however, about the origins of the conflict or the UN Security Council resolution? I thought that we were pretty much agreed across the House that we should support that resolution.

[Emily Thornberry]

Of course no one is saying at this stage that we should not support the UN resolution. However, further action needs to be taken in respect of the conflict. For example, it has been suggested that the UN resolution of 30 September has already mandated UN experts to work alongside the joint incidents assessment team—perhaps my hon. Friend is referring to that.

The difficulty is that if we look at the history, we find that in August the Office of the UN Commissioner on Human Rights

“called on the international community to establish an international independent body to carry out comprehensive investigations in Yemen”,

which is exactly what we are calling for today. When the compromise resolution was agreed on 30 September, the Commissioner’s Office said that it was disappointed at the outcome, stating:

“We did not have any say in the final text.”

If that resolution was not what the Commissioner’s Office wanted, I do not think that we should be satisfied with it either.

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[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

I am sad to say that I will be unable to back the motion my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) has introduced today. I think this is the first time I have not supported an Opposition day motion, and God knows I have backed some rubbish—only joking. There is much in the motion that I agree with, but I fear it is ultimately undermined by the abandonment of our commitment to the UN Security Council resolution, and I fear that while it may make us feel better, it will not make the situation on the ground better.

The situation in Yemen is appalling and is quickly becoming the greatest humanitarian challenge stalking the planet in what is a most difficult time. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) spoke movingly about the scale of the human catastrophe in Yemen and I agree with him that it is a shame that we are seeking to divide the House on this issue.

There are legitimate concerns about the actions of Saudi Arabia in the Yemen. There is little doubt that the recent bombing of a funeral in the Yemeni capital constitutes a war crime; it was an appalling act that sickens us all, and I am pleased that the Saudis have accepted culpability and that an investigation into this incident is ongoing. I hope that as the investigation continues those responsible for this awful incident will be brought to justice and tried by the International Criminal Court.

There are other allegations against the Saudis that should concern us all. My hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury referred to the reports of deliberate strikes against agriculture infrastructure and the bombing of recently besieged areas in which aid is being provided. For that reason, I support the call for an independent inquiry to establish what has been done, by whom and on whose orders. My hon. Friend is right to push the Government and the international community to do more to ensure clarity on this matter, and we should be attempting to use our influence to ensure that a legitimate UN-sanctioned campaign in Yemen is not undermined by inexcusable actions. She posed some important questions, but I have to say that I was not certain what support she was asking us to withdraw. The motion clearly does not refer to arms exports. So if I were to support it, I would not be clear exactly what I was asking for.

It is true that our relationship with Saudi Arabia is not an easy one, but we do wield some influence and our security is enhanced by the relationship. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, once a secretive, suspicious and insular country, now sends its Ministers here to be scrutinised by MPs in the Houses of Parliament. Other Members have referred to our significant economic interest in continuing to have positive relations with the Saudis, and to the fact that they have been a useful ally for our own security in the past and today. For years, the west has asked Saudi Arabia to take on more responsibility for what happens in the region, and it is now doing so. None of this means that we should ignore or underplay the significance of infractions of international humanitarian law, but we should think very carefully before isolating Saudi Arabia in the way that the motion suggests.

We should also be clear about the true threat posed to the people of Yemen, and indeed to the wider middle east region, by the Houthis. They are a terrorist organisation and they are unapologetic in their slaughtering of civilians. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) has just referred to the words inscribed on their flag, and those words tell us everything we need to know about the true motives of that organisation. It is for precisely that reason that, in April 2015, the United Nations Security Council adopted resolution 2216, which mandated military action. It would be a huge mistake for us to turn away from that. As everyone in the House is aware, thousands of Yemeni women, children and old people will sleep fitfully tonight, never knowing what horrors tomorrow might bring. Now is not the time to throw away the influence we have. It is time to use it to help to create a safer middle east.

Aleppo and Syria

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, but those S-300 missiles do not affect the viability of imposing a no-fly zone.

My final question for the Foreign Secretary is, what steps are he and his Department taking to support and enhance the work of the International Syria Support Group? Staffan de Mistura has said that the suspension of bilateral negotiations between the two chairs, US and Russia, “should not and will not” affect the existence of the group. What steps is Britain taking to provide financial, diplomatic and political support to the International Syria Support Group? This group includes all of the five permanent members, Italy, Turkey, Japan, Iran, and the key Arab countries. It represents the UN, the EU and the Arab League. It needs to be greatly expanded. There should be an office, for example, working with and adjacent to the Geneva talks. It should carry out work on the key ingredients for a peace whenever that may come, and we should give very strong support to it.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

May I add a question to the ones that the right hon. Gentleman has posed to the Foreign Secretary? He has spoken very powerfully. Members of the House have described Russia as a pariah. He has compared it with the Nazi regime of the 1930s. Is it not utterly ludicrous that, in two years’ time, the greatest sporting spectacle on earth—the World cup—will be held in Russia, but not a single country is pulling out of it? If we are really serious about sending a message to Putin that is heard on the ground, should we not be questioning whether the World cup should take place in Russia?

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. I hope that when he is considering sanctions, both economic and otherwise, the Foreign Secretary will have a view on that.

The international community faces a choice. Are we so cowed and so poleaxed by recent history in Iraq and Afghanistan that we are incapable now of taking action? Was all the international handwringing after Rwanda, Bosnia and Srebrenica when we said “never again” just hot air? Is all the work on the responsibility to protect—RtoP—which was unanimously adopted by the United Nations Security Council and agreed by the entire international community just so many words? Let us at least be clear here among ourselves. We have a choice: we can turn away from the misery and suffering of children and humanity in Aleppo; we can once again, on our watch, appease today’s international law breaker, Russia, and continue to find eloquent excuses for inaction; or we can be seen to take a lead to explore the situation energetically and with determination with our allies in NATO, Europe, America, and the United Nations and refuse to take no for an answer. We can look at every possible way of ending this barbarism and this tyranny, which is threatening the international rules-based system, destroying international order and engulfing the Syrian people.

Syria

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, and efforts are being made to ensure that all war crimes are collated. That will not be forgotten, and we will be returning to the subject in a serious way once the cessation of hostilities has moved forward.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The Minister is right to say that the statement by the International Syria Support Group is welcome. However, the actions of the Russians rather fly in the face of that, because they are signing up to a transition plan at the same time as bolstering the Assad regime. Can the Minister tell us the extent to which he believes that the Russians understand the level of transition that is required, and whether they recognise that the Assad regime needs to come to an end if Syria is to have a peaceful future?

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point about making sure that there is a verification process in place. We are doing our part in making sure that we pass information on to the United Nations. A report will go to the Secretary-General of the UN in 15 days, and at 30-day intervals after that, confirming the situation of the cessation of hostilities and any breaches that occur. It is important for the United Kingdom, America and other countries to keep the pressure on Russia to make sure that it recognises its unique position in ensuring that the cessation is honoured, so that we can expedite the political process and alleviate the humanitarian situation.

UK’s Relationship with the EU

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend is reading in contradictions where no such contradiction exists. The treaties are clear that, as a matter of policy and legal competence, national security remains the responsibility of national Governments in the member states. The Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary have frequently spoken about how, through effective co-operation within Europe on selected justice and home affairs measures, and through effective co-operation in counter-terrorist work and foreign policy work to deal with organised crime, terrorism and people trafficking elsewhere in the world, we can amplify the efforts that we make on our own and do better at securing objectives that matter to the British people than we could if we acted on our own.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

The deal laid out by Mr Tusk is a good deal better than many Conservative Members may have expected. It will not make a difference to me—I will support Britain staying within the EU—and I suppose it will not make any difference to many Members sitting behind the Minister, as they would not countenance Britain staying in the EU under any circumstances. Ultimately, however, I hope that the deal, however it is arrived at, will be enough to persuade people who were undecided to come on board and back the campaign to remain within the EU, and to put Britain’s jobs and best interests first.

[Mr Lidington]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I do not want to jump fences ahead of the European Council later in February. We are not yet at the stage when we can say that a deal has been achieved. If a deal is achieved, then I think we can deliver the win-win outcome for the British people that the Prime Minister has been seeking.

Oral Answers to Questions

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hugh Robertson]

After the military draw-down, of course, the hope is that a NATO-led mission will replace the international security assistance force. Britain’s part in that will be to provide mentors and trainers. We keep the security situation in Kabul and elsewhere under close review on a daily, if not hourly, basis, and we amend the advice accordingly.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

11. What preparations his Department has made ahead of the Geneva II summit on Syria.

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

The objective of Geneva II is to establish by mutual consent a transitional governing body in Syria with full executive powers. The regime, opposition and invited states should attend on that basis, and all sides need to improve the dire humanitarian situation, including through prisoner releases and improving access.

[Toby Perkins]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for that answer. Did the United Nations Secretary-General consult him before Iran’s invitation to Geneva II was issued, and if so, what was his response to that consultation?

[Mr Hague]

There have been many consultations at the UN Security Council, such as between the Secretary-General and the permanent representatives, including the UK’s permanent representative. Our advice has always been what I said in the House last week—that we were not opposed in principle to Iran attending, but that we wanted a clearer and more constructive public commitment by Iran to the objectives of the Geneva II conference, which I have just set out. In the light of Iranian unwillingness to make such a commitment yesterday, the Secretary-General was right to rescind the invitation.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Friday 29th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Gapes]

I have had no direct discussions with the hon. Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), but he is present, and is perfectly at liberty to speak about the amendments or even to intervene now. I should welcome an intervention from him if he wishes to explain why he does not like certain of my amendments. However, as we have observed on previous Fridays, although he is the Bill’s promoter, he makes hardly any contributions to our debates.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Many people might think that the reason the Government are being so unclear is that they do not have any of the answers, and it is simply a political manoeuvre. If Government Members have genuine concerns, is it not surprising that so few of them are here to discuss my hon. Friend’s amendments?

[Mike Gapes]

Apart from the Minister, only two Conservative Members are present, namely the promoter of the Bill and his hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby), along with one Liberal Democrat. Oh, I am sorry: I forgot the Whip. Whips are almost anonymous, so I never notice them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I am not in close control of the fresh produce purchased in the Hague household, since certain of my other duties interfere with that. While I am Foreign Secretary, I do not expect to have that onerous responsibility placed on me.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Many people who have seen the appalling scenes in Turkey on their television screens will have been dismayed by the rather meek response from the right hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) earlier. Will he give us a little bit more of a sense of the outrage that people are feeling around the world and confirm that he is putting real pressure on the Turkish Government to respect the right to peaceful protest?

[Mr Lidington]

In our dealings with the Turkish Government, we have to respect the fact that they are a democratically elected Government—they are not the kind of military regime that used to rule Turkey. At the same time, however, we have to say to our Turkish friends that they have entered into commitments to democratic reform, judicial reform and human rights, and that all their friends elsewhere in the world look forward to their continuing to deliver on that agenda.

Oral Answers to Questions

Toby Perkins Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

My hon. Friend raises a very important point, which is getting hon. Members to understand that the facility is available. The more people who do, the better we can export. We have UKTI, and small and medium-sized enterprises will take part in its export week from 12 to 16 November, when more than 100 events will be organised across the UK. We have the overseas business risk service, and members of my Department spoke to members of the Kent international trade office on 18 October about the help that the Foreign Office can offer. I am glad that it is working with her, but I urge right hon. and hon. Members across the House to make use of the facilities for their local small and medium-sized enterprises. We can help—we are here to help—and if Members have any problems and encounter difficulties, my office door is always open.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

22. Despite what the Minister said, exports of goods in the second quarter continued to fall, and the £10.2 billion trade deficit in June was the worst since 1997. UK exporters tell me that the increasingly isolationist rhetoric by members of the Government has done little to develop the notion that Britain is open for business, and suggests that the Government just want to be alone.

[Mr Swire]

I do not know how to respond to that. It may have escaped the hon. Gentleman’s notice that there has been a bit of economic turbulence in the eurozone, which is an important market for us. The network shift over which the Foreign Office is presiding involves more people in more places, particularly in emerging and re-emerging markets. We are opening up 11 new embassies, and eight new British consulates and trade offices. We are redeploying 300 extra staff in more than 20 countries in Asia, Latin America and Africa. If that is his definition of isolationism, it is not mine.