Crime and Policing Bill

Viscount Goschen Excerpts

Tuesday 20th January 2026 Lords Chamber

I know that there are ethnic disparities in the use of stop and search, and that black people are still more than three times as likely to be stopped and searched as other representative members of the community. We need to monitor this closely and keep an eye on it. However, the powers are relatively sparsely used now. There is a magnificently big reduction on the figures from 2008-09, and the other measures we are taking are helping to tackle knife crime. With that, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

I wonder whether the Minister could help us. I listened carefully to his remarks but I am not sure that I really understood the difference, as the Government define it, between “violence” and “serious violence”. We all perhaps have some ideas in our minds, and it has been a balanced and considered debate on both sides, but could the Minister help the Committee by helping us to define rather more clearly the difference between “violence” and “serious violence”, and how that might affect the use of these powers? I would be very much obliged if he did that.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Section 60 powers are in operation and have been there for some significant time. As I shared with the Committee a moment ago, the use of those powers by police officers was significantly higher in the mid to late 2000s than it is now. That is because we are trying to ensure that there is operational guidance—not ministerial guidance—on the use of stop and search powers. Stop and search is seen by the police as a tool of last resort in an area where there is serious violence. I am not going to speculate for the noble Viscount on what that serious violence barrier is; that is an operational decision for the police at a local level in a particular circumstance.

The legislation is clear. The level of use has dropped because the police recognise that this is a tool of last resort which has to have the confidence of the community. I cannot differentiate between levels of violence in a way that may help the noble Viscount today, but the level of violence must be deemed at the time by a local senior police officer on the ground to be sufficiently worrying that he or she determines an area in which stop and search powers will operate. That may not answer the point, but I hope it is of some help to the noble Viscount.

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The gap that Amendment 416 seeks to close is real. It would not criminalise all mask wearing or interfere with religious coverings, medical masks or legitimate cycling; it would simply give a constable the power to stop a person who was both cycling or riding a scooter and concealing their identity—nothing more. I believe that it is a proportionate response to a specific criminal modus operandi. Criminals are exploiting anonymity as a tactical advantage, and we need to put the boot on the other foot and give the police the powers they need. If the amendment needs to be tweaked along the lines that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, suggested, we should bring it back on Report and support it.

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

My Lords, this is somewhat Groundhog Day for the Committee, as we have considered very similar amendments and issues on earlier days. All Peers who have spoken, including my noble friends Lord Shinkwin and Lord Blencathra, the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, me and many others, have agreed that there is a significant problem—we see it very much in London but also, I am sure, in other parts of the country—of people completely ignoring the Road Traffic Act and the police doing nothing about it, to be entirely frank.

I repeat the assertion that I made from these Benches: I have never, on a single occasion in the last two or three years, seen a policeman stopping a cyclist, an e-bike rider or a delivery rider for riding the wrong way down the street. This happens the whole time; it is now the norm. If you go out after 5 pm—I often walk into the West End from your Lordships’ House to go home—there are limitless delivery riders riding very fast on electric-powered bicycles. As the Committee may know, I ride an electric bike on occasion, but they ride without lights and the wrong way down the road. The police have the powers to stop them, but they do not do it.

I ask for some answer from the Minister about how we square that circle of enforcement, while respecting the division of powers between what the police are charged with—the independence of various police forces —and the will of Parliament. One way or another, we need to get to a point where the House is confident that this problem will be addressed. I am absolutely with my noble friend in what she is trying to do with her amendment, but there are certainly difficulties. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, said about how the police already have the power to stop any vehicle.

I am sure we will come back to these issues on Report, and there will be determined attempts to pass amendments to this Bill, but when the Minister winds up, can he please specifically address what confidence he can give, if this House and Parliament as a whole wish this issue to be addressed, about how that will translate into action, while respecting the independence of the police force, which has such a tough job to do, does so much of it so well and has many different priorities?

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, as the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, said, this is Groundhog Day, and I fear we are rehearsing many of the points raised on earlier groups. We on these Benches do not support Amendment 416 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. As we have heard, there are many reasons why someone might choose to wear a face covering while cycling or scooting, ranging from the practical to the health related. As we have heard, if it is cold weather, of course you are going to wear a scarf or a face covering to keep yourself warm and prevent wind burn. Quite frankly, in the recent cold weather, that might even prevent you getting frostbite while you are cycling along.

In urban areas, there are specific masks that people wear to tackle the pollution that we still have in many of our cities, to deal with and filter out pollutants, dust and exhaust fumes. How is that wrong? Why would we want to prevent people doing that? Likewise, if we have extreme heat, people sometimes wear masks because they want to block out pollen and other allergens, and also to protect themselves from UV rays. While in this Chamber we have heard often, in my experience so far, quite negative debate about cyclists, there are many cyclists here, and they will know that covering your face prevents bugs, dirt and small debris hitting their mouth or nose while they are riding. I am an occasional cyclist, and I wear sunglasses and wrap up warm when I am out cycling to protect myself from the glare and debris. It is practical. How would we make that a problem? Why is it a cause for concern? It is practical clothing for people who choose to cycle or scoot. Why are we treating those people as criminals?

There is a separate need for management of micromobility, which has come out in all these discussions. It would be good to hear from the Minister when we might expect some legislation around managing micromobility, the explosion of e-bikes and e-scooters on our streets, and the extension of trial after trial by the previous Government. But this amendment treats all cyclists and those riding scooters as criminals, rather than as individuals dressing for their mode of transport. I hope that the Government will agree with me and these Benches that it is disproportionate and not needed in the Bill.

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These amendments are complementary and carefully targeted. Amendment 416H would ensure that operators pay for the public realm impacts of their fleets, which are scattered all over the pavements, and that they are financially incentivised to prevent clutter through better systems and infrastructure. Amendment 416I would remove a small but dangerous subset of machines that are manifestly illegal and pose acute safety and criminal use risks, preventing their return to the streets or to criminal networks. Neither amendment would ban micromobility. This is not an attack on micromobility at all. Both amendments would preserve the environmental and transport benefits of e-bikes and e-scooters, while ensuring that those benefits do not come at the expense of pedestrian safety, accessibility or the proper functioning of public space. I urge the Committee to support these amendments so that we can restore safe and accessible pavements, and ensure that micromobility serves the public interest rather than undermining it. I beg to move.

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

My Lords, I would like briefly to support my noble friend Lord Blencathra in his Amendment 416I, as the Committee will not be massively surprised to hear, given that we have covered this on previous occasions.

The police are turning a blind eye to the use of illegal vehicles on our streets. Why is that? I should like the Minister to answer that question, if at all possible. Illegal vehicles on our streets should be seized and destroyed. There should be a campaign to do that; if that happened, they would not come back. At the moment, the use of illegal vehicles is tolerated. If people were riding illegal petrol-powered motorcycles around London, they would very quickly find themselves in trouble. If people were driving trucks with no licence plates on them, they would very quickly find themselves on the wrong side of the law. At the moment, the large delivery companies in particular are facilitating this. They are contractors, but, none the less, their agents are using illegal vehicles for commercial purposes. That should not be allowed and the Government should put a stop to it.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, that fact that someone has brought forward these two amendments makes me feel like saying, “Hurrah!” It is not just in Kensington and Chelsea. I live in EC4, and I spend my time walking on the road to get round the huge groups of mainly Lime bikes. I have not checked as to whether they are illegal, but the fact is that a great many of them take up a great deal of space and it seems absolutely extraordinary that nothing is being done about it. I watch other people, particularly women with pushchairs—even in EC4 there are women with pushchairs—and sometimes people in wheelchairs, either negotiating gingerly these bikes or walking, as I find myself walking, on the road. I hope that the Minister will consider carefully what is being suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, because this really is a scourge. I say “Hurrah” to the noble Lord for bringing this amendment forward.