Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Thursday 8th January 2026

(began 4 months, 1 week ago)

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11:09

Introduction(s): Lord John of Southwark; Baroness Dacres of Lewisham

Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the Grace Charles III, by the Grace of Charles III, by the Grace of God Charles III, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of our other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our trusty and well beloved Peter, Charles, John, officer of our most excellent order of the British Empire, to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron John of Southwark, of Patrick in our County of Essex, and for us, our heirs and successors, do appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron John of Southwark, to have and to hold onto him for his life willing and by these his life willing and by these United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness ourself at Westminster in the forenoon of the seventh day of January, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign-manual.

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I Peter Lord John of Southwark, do swear by Almighty God that I do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors

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Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God

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Charles III, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of her other realms and territories. of her other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to all Lords, defender of the Faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge, and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958, and of all other powers, in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create, and prefer our trusty and well-beloved Brenda Vanessa Dacres officer of our most excellent order of the British Empire to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Dacres of Lewisham, of Deptford, in our London Borough of Lewisham.

And for us, our heirs and successors do appoint, give and grant unto her the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baroness Dacres of Lewisham to have and to hold unto her for her life. Willing and by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that she may have, hold, and possess a seat, place, and voice in the parliaments and public assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that she may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, Preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or, as they do at present, use and enjoy.

In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent witness ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the seventh day of January, in the fourth year of our

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sign-manual. I printer Baroness Dacres of

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I printer Baroness Dacres of Lewisham do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors Charles, his heirs and successors

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So.

11:20

Oral questions: Including civil society and faith-based organisations in work to reach net zero emissions by 2050

11:20

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> I recently published Energising Britain Plan sets out how we will work with communities so that everyone can benefit from our clean energy superpower mission. It highlights how we are already engaging people in local organisations to design and deliver climate and nature policies that reflect people's needs and views. The plan also outlines new ways to collaborate, including an annual Energising Britain event and a youth Climate and Nature panel.

11:21

The Lord Bishop of Norwich (Bishops)

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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, the Minister, for his reply. Gus the Minister, for his reply. Gus Speth at Yale said that the real issue here around reaching net zero is tackling selfishness, greed and apathy, and Pope Francis has called for an ecological conversion. Both civil society and faith based organisations can provide thought leadership in this sphere, and I wonder whether the noble Lord, the Minister, might share with us his thoughts as to how we can build upon that in in implementing the strategy that he has just outlined, so that these groups can be more engaged in the ongoing dialogue about net zero.

11:21

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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The Energising Britain Plan does, among many other things, set out ways in which local communities and faith groups can play a central role, not just in clean energy superpower mission, but on the road to net zero. And indeed, in my experience working with local communities and covenants and faith groups in various parts of Southampton has proved a tremendous moral driver to that particular mission. And I hope that the Energising Britain Plan will take full account of just how much moral and practical leadership can come about as a result of energising those communities and those local faith groups.

11:22

Lord McColl of Dulwich (Conservative)

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I know that. >> Agree that as there is no scientific evidence that we can change the climate. Does he think his Bishop friends are relying for their scientific information on supernatural powers?

11:22

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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I think the noble Lord will be pleased to know that I do not agree pleased to know that I do not agree with anything he has said this morning in this chamber. It's absolutely clear, the science says, that the we have a severe problem as far as global warming is concerned, and that we need to take action to deal with it. And that's precisely what we are doing in government at the moment.

11:23

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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Does the. the bully. >> My Lords? Does my noble friend the Minister agree that there will the Minister agree that there will be a number of civil society and faith based organisations in the mining areas of South Yorkshire and reaching out to them, perhaps through parish councils, would be an excellent way of explaining the benefits of net zero in terms of creating local jobs, for example. He won't be surprised to hear this from me. The role that Sheffield Forgemasters could play in manufacturing small modular reactors and other renewable equipment.

11:24

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Well, the question of how local communities, particularly local communities that have previously been involved in the high carbon economy, can ensure that they are not left behind in the low carbon economy is very important to us, and the question of just transition to net zero is also very important, the my noble friend mentions the question of Sheffield forgemasters, which is crucial to the local communities and areas of Sheffield in which it resides, and ensuring that the content of future low carbon energy projects is as high as possible within the UK, and preferably comes to those local industries, is an important part of that just transition.

11:24

Lord Bird (Crossbench)

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Would the Minister agree with me that actually getting rid of that actually getting rid of poverty would be one of the greatest ways of achieving net zero?

11:25

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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I do completely agree with the >> I do completely agree with the noble Lord that getting to net zero is is is is an ethical and. Spiritual, shall we say, concept that very much involves justice in the process and justice involves getting rid of poverty, among other things, in the process. But I would remind the noble Lord that low carbon activity, for example, cutting substantial money off people's energy bills as a a part of that process, is a substantial way of cutting poverty in the road to net zero.

My Lord.

11:25

Earl Russell (Liberal Democrat)

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Lib Dem, my Lib Dem, my Lords, three, three and four of our young people are moderately or extremely concerned about the impact of climate change. So can I ask the Minister what actions the government is doing to include young people much more in decision making and decision making processes, to make sure that their voices are heard? And specifically, can I ask the Minister what intention the government has to have citizens assemblies so that young people's voices are included in policy making?

11:26

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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The noble Lord will, of course, be aware of the many actions that the government is undertaking at the moment in order to ensure that young people are committed, involved and energised. As far as climate change net zero is concerned. And that's among other reasons why we have developed the Youth Climate and Nature panel, which is part of our Energising Britain plan. But it is also the case that some of the highest commitment towards the green transition of low carbon energy is to be found among young people, and that they therefore need to be fundamentally included, both at community and faith level in the work that we're doing.

11:27

Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Conservative)

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My Lords, notwithstanding the >> My Lords, notwithstanding the noble Lord, the Minister's original answer referencing the Government's Energising Britain plan, the government's shortened clean energy objective, is disfiguring huge swathes of the countryside and alienating local communities. 180 kilometre transmission line is being built from Norwich to Tilbury. Carmarthenshire residents have been locked in a battle with authorities over pylons for over two years, and most recently, a new 71 acre substation is being proposed in north Cumbria, despite opposition from locals.

Given that by the time many of these projects are completed, undergrounding cables will have become far more affordable. Already, comparative costs for undergrounding have plummeted from 10 to 4 times that of overcrowding. Does the noble Lords Minister believe that this approach is the best way to win the support of rural communities for net zero?

11:28

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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The noble Baroness will be very well aware of the tremendous amount of work that needs to be done in terms of the infrastructure changes to bring about net zero energy for the future. And of course, that entails bringing forward new infrastructure, which, by the way, I'd say the previous administration completely fell down on in terms of the green transition it calls it entails bringing new infrastructure forward, but that needs to be done on the basis of a in terms of the theme of our discussion today, in terms of involvement of local communities and involvement of local areas in getting that new infrastructure in place in a satisfactory way.

The question of undergrounding or otherwise cables for the future is something that clearly needs to be considered in that, but also the overall benefit of what that new infrastructure is going to be for those communities in terms of bringing their bills down, of bringing clean energy to their communities, and making sure that the green transition is carried forward as best as possible at local level.

11:29

Lord Spellar (Labour)

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We're here. >> We're here. >> With the Minister not agree that can I commend the Minister for his.

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can I commend the Minister for his. Favourable mention of government publicly owned Sheffield Forgemasters and their role in the Forgemasters and their role in the small modular reactor programme? Could he, therefore reassure the House that the vessels for the first the first in class modular reactors will in fact be built at Sheffield, which we are funding through Rolls-Royce, will in fact be built at Sheffield Forgemasters and not shipped overseas.

11:29

Lord Whitehead, Minister of State (Department for Energy Security and Net Zero) (Labour)

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Well, I think, as my noble friend will be aware, we are in the process of developing a first modular nuclear reactor with Rolls-Royce. Considerable progress has been made in that development, but as yet no decisions have been taken about exactly where the components of that new modular reactor will be built in, subject to the general commitment that the highest possible percentage of the components for small nuclear reactors, and indeed other parts of the nuclear programme, will be sourced in the UK.

And certainly it would be the intention of the government to make sure that that commitment is met to the greatest possible degree.

11:30

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Second, Oral Question Baroness Pidgeon. >> I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> This government is committed to

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This government is committed to ensuring buses are safe and secure for all passengers and road users, and we expect the bus sector to and we expect the bus sector to uphold the highest possible safety standards. The Bus Services Act 2025 helps to deliver safer, more reliable and more accessible bus networks, and we have just published the new road safety strategy, setting out the government's plan to make our roads significantly safer for everyone.

11:31

Baroness Pidgeon (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, given that there are >> My Lords, given that there are around 700 Yutong electric buses in operation across our country, and concerns have been raised concerns have been raised internationally that these buses can be stopped or made inoperable through remote interference from China. Will the government issue clear guidance for procurement of such electric buses, including new security requirements such as firewalls, to prevent our buses from being hacked?

11:31

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. government are looking into the media reports from Norway on this, and the Secretary of State has already committed to updating the Transport Select Committee on this work as soon as we can. We cannot legally mandate that funding given as subsidies used to purchase British built buses. But where local authorities are running their own procurement to buy buses directly, they can design these exercises in a way that maximises the wider economic benefits offered by domestic suppliers. We also launched last year the UK Bus Manufacturing Expert Panel to support UK bus manufacturing, and through that we are actively encouraging mayoral combined authorities, many of whom will shortly procure bus fleets to support their new bus franchising programmes to embed best practice social value criteria within their procurement.

11:32

Lord Berkeley (Labour)

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Lord Swire could the Minister, my noble friend, the Minister, my noble friend, the Minister, explain how the roads can be made safer for buses and in the press? Today there are two reports of two bus accidents involving school buses and quite a few children injured. Isn't it time that we had a system where we could make the roads safe for buses, and safe for everyone else in a way that happens in many other countries?

11:33

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So I refer my noble friend to the Road Safety Strategy, which has the Road Safety Strategy, which has just been published, the first for many years, which sets out a whole, a whole variety of of actions to be taken both with vehicles, drivers, pedestrians, other road users and infrastructure, which he refers to in order to reduce deaths and serious injuries on the road. Nevertheless, travelling by bus is a very safe mode of travel.

11:33

Lord Grayling (Conservative)

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Given the weather conditions at >> Given the weather conditions at the moment. Obviously one of the issues is buses and icy roads. Does the Minister know? Do we mandate the Minister know? Do we mandate bus companies to have winter tyres on buses, and if not, should we do so?

11:33

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I don't I've never heard of of >> I don't I've never heard of of any mandate for winter tyres and indeed actually the speed at which the weather changes given the, given the climate change, which was just being discussed in this in this chamber, would make changing tyres overnight really seriously impractical activity. But of course what's needed when the roads are are frosty and the temperatures are below freezing is adequate. Gritting and care by local transport authorities and my Ministers in my department and the other place have been looking overnight and this week into the adequacy of gritting across across the country.

11:34

Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)

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My Lords, can I take the >> My Lords, can I take the Minister back to the. Covid had a big impact on the number of people big impact on the number of people using our buses. What's the government's latest assessment of take up of bus use post-Covid, and what's the government doing to promote the use of buses with the public?

11:34

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So the noble Lord is quite correct. Covid did have an effect correct. Covid did have an effect on all public transport demand. The government has taken a series of of of actions, including the Bus Services Act 2025, which changes the landscape to enable local transport authorities to provide services designed for the people who live and work in, in their communities. And also, I'd refer my the noble Lord to the recent funding announcements which both funded every transport authority in England.

Unlike the previous government's selective funding, and has also now guaranteed funding over the next three years. Its consistency of service, which will encourage growth back of of passengers on buses and we're determined to achieve that.

11:35

Lord Harper (Conservative)

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Can I take the Minister back to >> Can I take the Minister back to the question asked by the noble Lady Baroness Pidgeon? My understanding is that officials in understanding is that officials in his department, in conjunction with the National Cyber Security Centre, have already carried out an analysis of those Chinese made buses have confirmed that there is that security flaw which enables them to be remotely dealt with, although there's no evidence that it's happened. So given that, can he confirm that to your Lordships House and also say what government's doing, not just with buses, but with all transport technology to make sure that it is not vulnerable to attack by our enemies?

11:36

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Well, the noble Lord is clearly >> Well, the noble Lord is clearly in possession of information that I'm not, because the my department and other parts of government are still looking at this. But look, it's a fact of life that all modern vehicles, including buses, are using software to support safer driving, to improve diagnostics and provide a host of other services. And updating this software remotely is an effective and efficient way of doing so. This has been the practice for years, but it is, of course, a concern, and that's why we're looking at it.

And if something needs to be done, of course this government will do it.

11:36

Lord Goddard of Stockport (Liberal Democrat)

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Will the government provide the UK electric bus industry to ensure competition in the bus section for competition in the bus section for all real choices for local authorities and transport authorities? And what additional safety features will the government require for bus fleets across the country to work towards Vision Zero, as initiatives in London and West Yorkshire are doing at the present.

11:37

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So I already referred to the UK Bus Manufacturing Expert Panel, which has been set up by this government to precisely to support the UK bus manufacturing industry. And I also said that we are actively encouraging those mayoral combined authorities who are going to procure bus fleets to embed best practice social value criteria so that they procure so that they are more able to procure buses made in made in Britain. If the noble Lord looks at the road safety strategy and and I'm not suggesting he's remiss in not having done so because it's only been published in the last few hours.

He will see. He will see that actually, it includes real commitments to to safe the safe system, which is the, the, the, the rather less interesting title of Vision Zero devised in Sweden. And it is looking to embed that in every aspect of road safety in Britain, including the operation of buses. We did have some discussion here in the Bus Services Bill debates about the safe system, and I think the noble Lord and others should be very pleased to read what's in the strategy when he when he's able to do so.

11:38

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)

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I must confess, when I saw this question on the Order Paper, I envisaged a discussion about safety in buses as much as safety of buses. So I hope my noble friend will forgive me if I ask an adjacent question to do with safety in buses, which is what can you tell us about the way that training of drivers and design of buses is now being taken forward to ensure the safety, particularly of young women travelling in buses and particularly at night?

11:38

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So my noble friend is absolutely right. The part of the Bus Services Act 2025 mandates training for all bus drivers in order to make buses part of the Safer Streets initiative, to deal with violence against women and girls. And the department is is actively producing the guidance for bus operators and local authorities about how that's done, so that every bus driver in Britain has the ability to spot what's going on and deal with it. 96% of of buses in Britain now have CCTV, which is of course, both a means of providing evidence and a reassurance to passengers that that that that that the, the safety safety is that their safety is being considered.

And I'm looking forward, as I'm sure my, my noble friend is to to this training being rolled out to every driver in Britain.

11:39

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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My Lords, it remains the case that very large numbers of people are injured daily through accidents inside buses, especially elderly people in large measure as a result of sharp braking. Nothing has been done to reduce this number over the years. The noble Lord, the Minister, is very aware of it. What can he say that this new strategy that we, we have the benefit of today is going to do to make a real difference to that number?

11:40

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I would take issue with the noble Lord that nothing's been done. I think there's been there's been a lot of individual work and in particular transport for London Post, his and my time there have spent a lot of effort and activity in, in interior bus design and the design of vehicle, the specification of vehicles themselves. But he will he too, when he sees the road safety strategy will see words in there about about better driving, about better infrastructure, which was previously referred to and about the use of Vision Zero, all of which should all of which must make it must make a difference in the way that people drive and consequently the, the effects of of of braking.

Of course, you want vehicles to stop when the vehicle in front of them stops or there's some hazard. But but sharp braking is, of course, as he says, particularly damaging to older people and vulnerable people. And we want to avoid it. And that's why the road safety strategy has to affect all users of roads.

11:41

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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Oral Question Lord Young of Cookham I beg leave to ask the question. Standing in my name on the Order Paper. >> We've always been clear. >> That building 1.5.

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That building 1.5. Million homes is an ambitious target, which is vital given that we inherited the worst housing we inherited the worst housing crisis in living memory. It will require a rate of house building and infrastructure construction not seen for over 50 years. We recognise the scale of the challenge and we are driving progress through bold planning reforms, including the Planning and Infrastructure Act 2025 and a record 39 billion investment in social and affordable housing. Our bold planning reforms will drive UK house building to the highest rate in 40 years.

11:42

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

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My Lords, I welcome any of the government's planning reforms, but government's planning reforms, but the OBR made it clear in November that they wouldn't be enough to hit the target, and recent completions were at a nine year low. Many sites with planning permission are no

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