Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Tuesday 9th June 2026

(began 5 months ago)

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14:35

Business of the House

Go Go right Go right ahead. Go right ahead. I Go right ahead. I Lord Go right ahead. I Lord de Go right ahead. I Lord de Mauley Go right ahead. I Lord de Mauley of camphor. Do you swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty? King Charles, his heirs and successors according to law. So help me God. Thank you very much.

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Thank you. I, John Lord Hampton of

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I, John Lord Hampton of Newington Green, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty. King Charles, his heirs and King Charles, his heirs and

14:37

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Thornton. >> I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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My Lord, I should declare my interest. I was a board member of the British Council for 12 years, the British Council for 12 years, an unbroken record, I'm told, many of them as a trustee and deputy chair and as acting chair. And the government has increased funding for the British Council, and we are allocating £173 million grant in aid per year until 2028 2029. In addition, we have provided a one off cash injection of 10 million this year to support the British Council's restructure.

It's grant funded operations in line with its financial turnaround plan. We have also agreed to the British Council retaining the proceeds of asset sales of £60 billion. These are significant increases from the 2020 425 baseline of 162.5 million. When this government took office, this is a very positive settlement for the British Council in what all Lordship, all your Lordships know, are challenging fiscal circumstances.

14:38

Baroness Thornton (Labour)

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I thank my noble friend for that answer, and indeed I am a great. I have great affection and support for the British Council, having been a parliamentary ambassador of theirs for many, many years, and indeed met many incoming delegations over the years. What I didn't hear my noble friends answer was the resolution of the punitive 200 million Covid era solvency and restructuring loan handed to the British Council by the then conservative government. The costs are eye watering £15 million in interest every year before even making repayments.

Can my noble friend tell me if this is going to be resolved? Yes, yes.

14:39

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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As my I think my noble friend knows, the loan was made on commercial terms to ensure compliance with the UK Subsidy Control Act, which means that interest rates are set at market rates. For the last five years, the British Council has made losses of around £50 million per year, greatly in excess of the loan repayments. The priority, therefore, is for the British Council to address the ongoing commercial losses, return to surplus and implement its financial turnaround plan to get itself back onto a long term, financially sustainable footing.

In the meantime, the British Council continues to do excellent and important work funded by grant in aid.

14:40

Baroness Adams of Craigielea (Labour)

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I know, my Lords, that the British Council has been appointed as the UK's national agency for the as the UK's national agency for the Erasmus programme, as we seek a closer relationship with the EU. How can we make sure that the British Council can play a full part in this, unhampered by this huge Covid debt? Yeah, yeah.

14:40

Baroness Northover (Liberal Democrat)

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The the noble Lady is right. The Erasmus programme is an important part of the work that the government is doing with Europe, and the British Council has a big role to play in that. That's not role to play in that. That's not one of the British Council's commercial activities, as I understand, are correct. If I've understand, are correct. If I've got that wrong and therefore will continue and won't be affected by the discussions about the. the discussions about the.

14:40

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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My Lord Bruce of Bennachie £15 million. by the British Council because of the 200 million Covid debt, is bringing the British Council to its

14:40

Baroness D'Souza (Crossbench)

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knees. And I wonder whether the government might consider some government might consider some creative solution to this particular debt. For example, particular debt. For example, granting the British Council a holiday or indeed delaying the payment of that 15 million interest debt until its financial situation becomes a little bit better. As we know, it is struggling at the moment, and it is doing everything it can to restructure, which includes a huge amount of, of, of letting go of staff around the world.

And this is to very much the detriment of the long term future of the British country.

14:41

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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As I've said, the loan must >> As I've said, the loan must comply with the UK Subsidy Control Act, but it has been extended to 2027. So the government has already made a made some concessions. The British Council submitted its turnaround plan in August 2025 and it has been independently reviewed. It is obviously highly commercially sensitive and I therefore am not going to give a running commentary. However, and I'm sure the noble Lady will be pleased to hear this, we hope that that the FCDO will be able to agree on restructuring the loan in the coming weeks.

14:42

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

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My Lords, almost exactly a year >> My Lords, almost exactly a year ago, Russia designated the British Council an undesirable organisation and the British Council was then and the British Council was then forced to suspend all of its remaining activities. Can the Minister tell us what the current situation is? Has any of his work been reactivated? And, for example, our Russian students are now able to access the IEL ts the global English standardised test.

14:42

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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I thank the Lord for that question as he knows the problems the British Council has encountered the British Council has encountered in Russia have. Go back a long time, and the recent problems that he has and the recent problems that he has just mentioned are ones we take very seriously. It's not a comfortable position for the British Council at all at the moment. I don't know the specific answer to the question about IELTS, but I'm happy to come back to the noble Lord on it.

14:43

Baroness Alexander of Cleveden (Labour)

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Labour. Labour. >> My Lords, I declare my interest as the Deputy Chair of the British Council on current plans, it is likely that this Covid era loan likely that this Covid era loan will be being paid down for the next 15 years plus. So can I ask my noble friend, the Minister, why the government has not accepted the British Council's offer of its art collection in lieu of the loan? Given the HMRC regularly accepts artwork from private estates in settlement of tax liabilities.

Why can't a comparable arrangement be found for the government's own soft power agency? I am aware of the complexities of the matter, and can I invite my noble friend, the Minister, to write to me on the specific issue of the art collection, paying down the loan and place a copy in the library for noble Lords?

14:44

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Yes. >> Well, of course, I'll be happy to write the noble Lady, but I should make it clear. I hesitate with my noble friend Lord Livermore, sitting next to me to say anything other than that. The Treasury expects the loan to be paid in cash. I think I think he may have made that point before, so I daresay he may have some views on this letter, too. But but the the art collection is a matter for the British Council to decide on, not not for the government.

14:44

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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My Lords, the British Council, of course, has an important role to of course, has an important role to play in helping the UK to protect its influence as a force for good its influence as a force for good on the world stage, and they are consequently a member of the UK government's Soft Power Council. That council met four times last year, but it hasn't met once this year. Could the noble Lord tell the House why?

14:44

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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The as. As the noble Lord, Lord >> The as. As the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan knows, the question of soft power extends far beyond the government, far beyond the British government, far beyond the British Council and indeed the BBC World Service to take in many other sectors higher education, creative industries and so on. I know that the Soft Power Council has had an independent review and Minister Elmore, what what is needed? Let me be clear. What is needed in the Soft Power Council is better coordination and more focus across all these different sectors, not just for the British Council and not just for the BBC World Service.

And that's what Minister Elmore is going to take forward.

14:45

Lord Ricketts (Crossbench)

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My Lords, my Lords, my Lords. >> My Lords, my Lords, my Lords. >> During my career I've seen I've seen a lot of the British Council's seen a lot of the British Council's work the world and just how respected it is as a torch. Culture and education around the world. Could the Minister tell us, is it true that the British Council are having to dispose of properties and close down in a number of countries in order to deal with the financial pressures? And is that really in the interests of British soft power?

14:45

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And the British Council, I know, regularly reviews its estate and. And it will continue to do so. The question of soft power and the question of the Britain's reputation internationally is about outcomes. It's not only about property. And I've no doubt as part of the turnaround plan, I want to be quite straightforward about this. The British Council will have have to review its estate, but it will continue to do its excellent work on cultural relations.

14:46

Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Labour)

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I had the great privilege from 1998 until 2004 of being the chair of the British Council, and of the British Council, and sometimes it's useful to draw on one's institutional memory. The reason that the British Council was set up in the middle of the 1930s was, in fact, to share British values. As we saw the rise of fascism and Nazism across Europe. And. And so I want to just remind us that as well as being a torch bearer for our culture, for our, our, our language, it's also a torch bearer for our values.

Is that being understood by government and by the new arrivals in the Commons? Because not very many of them will know that the British Council has been absolutely the heart of promoting democracy, the rule of law, and many other things, as well as our the other aspects of our culture.

14:47

Lord Lemos (Labour)

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Yes. >> I entirely agree with my noble friend, and I was proud to be her deputy chair at the British British deputy chair at the British British Council. It is absolutely true that the British Council represents Britain's values and. And that helps with our standing in the world. I do just want to in order to to reinforce the noble Lady's point, I want to just draw attention to two of the British Council's excellent programme. The British Council continues to manage £78 million of scholarships each evening.

Marshall scholarships and Commonwealth scholarships and exactly in the way that she's describing, the British Council has a very big programme with Ukrainian schools, of which they should be extremely proud.

14:48

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Oral Question Lord Storey. >> Oral Question Lord Storey. >> I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

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Paper. This government recognises the role that light electric vehicles, including electric cycles and including electric cycles and scooters, can play in supporting economic growth, improving health and reducing emissions. The electric cycles that comply with regulations are already permitted on public roads, and the government has recently legislated to improve regulation of shared bike schemes. E-scooters are being tested through shared rental trials to assess their benefits and safety, whilst private e-scooters remain illegal for use on public roads. We will consult on proposals for e-scooters in the next few months.

14:48

Lord Storey (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords, last October, Sunday, Peters was walking on a pavement in south London with her son. It was south London with her son. It was his birthday when a hired bike hit her at full speed. Her face went into a brick wall. She spent seven days in hospital, facing £10,000 worth of dental surgery. She has no way of recovering that money because the company that hired out the bike carries no rider liability insurance. The rider was 16, should never have hired a bike, but the aid checks failed and the law required none.

There was nobody held to account. Does the Minister not think that it's time to sort out the problems of e-bikes and e-scooters once and for all? Yeah.

14:49

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Well, I'm sure the first thing >> Well, I'm sure the first thing to say is that we sympathise absolutely with somebody with such terrible injuries in those circumstances, and our heart goes circumstances, and our heart goes out to them and their family. The next thing to say is that as part of the powers that the government has taken for shared cycles, we we will have powers to set insurance requirements. No decisions have yet been taken, but we will consult over that as a consequence of the powers given the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, for precisely the reason that the noble Lord says, which is that higher, higher schemes do do need some rules and.

And that legislation enables us to set them.

14:50

Lord Krebs (Crossbench)

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But, Lord, my notes. My Lords. >> Where I live in Oxford, one. >> Of the problems with e-bikes and. >> E-scooters is that all too often

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E-scooters is that all too often they're dumped on the footpath, blocking the way for. Particularly for mothers with prams and pushchairs and for elderly people pushchairs and for elderly people and the sight impaired. In this context, I note that Kensington and Chelsea Council in the last 18 months has removed over 2500 illegally parked e-bikes and e-scooters, and charged the operators £210,000 for doing so. Does the noble Lord the Minister think that other councils, including Oxfordshire County Council, should be encouraged to follow the lead of Kensington and Chelsea?

14:50

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Yeah. Well done. >> I do.

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My Lords. Timetable for when the introduction of the insurance scheme will be in law. He. He knows

14:51

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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from the discussions we had during the passage of the English Devolution Act that the Motor Devolution Act that the Motor Insurance Bureau are very keen to do so. Could he look outside do so. Could he look outside Parliament at the new super highway for bicycles that is being built, and can he give an assurance that and can he give an assurance that there will be safe crossing for pedestrians reaching the House of pedestrians reaching the House of Lords and other aspects of Parliament? Because at the moment Cyprus and e-scooters are not stopping at the traffic lights and it is incredibly dangerous for visitors and parliamentarians alike to cross the road at Abingdon Street.

Yeah.

14:52

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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I think it was a surprise to the House authorities, just as it was House authorities, just as it was to noble Lords, that that scheme, the construction of that started on Saturday without without notice, Saturday without without notice, and I, I would expect in the Department would expect the scheme to be designed in accordance with with all of the right design principles for, for cycling. And I'd also expect, as we've has been remarked in here before, that all road users have a duty to comply with the law, which includes lights.

14:52

Lord Shamash (Labour)

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My Lord, my Lord. like electric bikes and I don't like electric scooters, so at least you know where I'm coming from. But you know where I'm coming from. But parking, being stationary at a red traffic light and being overtaken by bikes that not pay the slightest heed to the traffic signals. It's really frustrating to watch, not least at the speed at which some of these can travel. And I was going to ask the Minister whether they could give serious thought to negotiating with the companies.

And we understand about the 20 mile limit, which I find incredibly frustrating. And maybe a number of my colleagues in the House will find. But what would be very useful is if the bikes had speed limiters on them, and that the fastest they could go was 19 miles an hour. So could I ask the Minister whether that could be my noble friend, the Minister, whether that could be taken on board and whether sort of negotiations with the bicycle companies could make sure they do all they can to make the bikes as safe as possible for other road users.

14:53

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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So electric cycles are only legal, providing the user is age 14 years or over and cycle meets years or over and cycle meets regulatory requirements, maximum power of 250W, and the maximum assisted speed of 15.5 miles an hour. Beyond that, they are classed as motor vehicles. They can't legally be used on the road unless they're approved and registered with the DVLA. Taxed and insured riders must also wear helmets and hold a driving licence. The encouraging thing I'd respond to my noble friend about is that enforcement and the noble, noble sorry, I'll start again.

Enforcement, which was has been championed by the City of London police, is now increasingly being carried out by other police forces who've realised that people who use illegal e-bikes also are also break other laws and create other offences.

14:54

Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lord, my Lord, we see a wide. On demand delivery riders illegally operating private e-scooters on public infrastructure. Will the government introduce robust statutory duties for delivery companies to actively audit, monitor and enforce legal compliance among their riders?

14:54

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I know Baroness is quite right. One, one of the principle or some many of the principal complaints about this are food delivery riders and and delivery riders. One of my the Minister for Local Transport has written to food delivery companies emphasising the need for appropriate training. The department has commissioned research on the road behaviours of food delivery drivers and we've announced as part of the road safety strategy that will pilot a voluntary national work related road safety charter for businesses that require people to drive or ride for them.

So the noble Baroness is right. There are issues about the gig economy and indeed people who are employed riding these bikes, and that's what the government is going to do about that.

14:55

Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)

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E-scooters cannot be used legally anywhere in Northern legally anywhere in Northern Ireland except in private land with the owner's permission. However, the owner's permission. However, according to the most recent figures, three people have died and 51 have been seriously injured in Northern Ireland due to e-scooter collisions. Under current legislation, the PSNI must issue a warning before any e-scooters can be seized. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that the removal of this legal obstacle, enabling officers to act immediately, would be incredibly helpful in enabling them to better protect the Northern Ireland public from reckless e-scooter e-scooter riders?

14:56

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The Crime and Policing Act 2026 gave police stronger powers to seize vehicles used anti-socially without first requiring a warning, and introduced new respect orders, enabling police and councils to ban persistent offenders from areas where they cause harm. I'm not familiar with the application with whether or not that legislation applies to Northern Ireland, but I'll write to the noble Lord and confirm whether or not it does.

14:56

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

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My Lords, it's time someone spoke up for the cyclist. >> Yeah. >> Unlike Lord Shamash, I like e-bikes. I'm one of a number of e-bikes. I'm one of a number of noble Lords the other side of middle age who use e-bikes, legal e-bikes to get around. Our case is undermined by illegal e-bikes driven dangerously, often by delivery drivers. The City of London police confiscate and destroy five illegal e-bikes every week. Should not more police forces do that and give wide publicity to that in order to reduce this abuse here?

14:57

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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The noble Lord is right and in in pursuit of his desires, the Metropolitan. The Metropolitan Police recently seized 52 illegal Police recently seized 52 illegal e-bikes and mopeds, with a total of 2741 seized in across 2526. West Midlands Police seized more than 50. Greater Manchester Police have seized six and remove locally 55. Merseyside Police have seized over 500 Nottinghamshire Police. Around 100, South Yorkshire 100/150. So we are starting to see proper enforcement across Britain and the more publicity all that gets, the better it is.

14:58

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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My Lords, I just want to throw my tuppence into this. Really what my tuppence into this. Really what strikes me, and I'm building here on the question asked by the noble Lord Lord Krebs, is just how shoddy Lord Lord Krebs, is just how shoddy and tawdry our great city streets are looking, when what they've been turned into is sort of great parking lots for bikes for the benefit of private companies. Isn't the noble Lord move to do more than simply recite a series of legal requirements imposed on bicyclists that nobody ever complies with?

14:58

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, Minister of State (Department for Transport) (Labour)

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Gosh. The the the answer to that, >> Gosh. The the the answer to that, of course, is, is that the ability through the English Devolution and through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act to allow local leaders to license shared cycle schemes is precisely the measure that will enable local authorities to do. To clean up streets, at least in respect of bikes. And as we go forward with proposals for e-scooters, I've no doubt that the same that the same powers will feature, because the noble Lord does have a good point, especially in relation to people with partial or eyesight or other disabilities, which is littering the pavements and streets with these things is hugely undesirable for ordinary people to walk about and make use of their towns and cities.

14:59

Lord Forbes of Newcastle (Labour)

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Third Oral Question Lord Forbes of Newcastle. of Newcastle. >> My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question, standing in my name on the Order Paper, and in doing so draw attention to my role as President of Capital City College Group.

14:59

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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My Lords, further education colleges are publicly funded and provide free education. No VAT is charged on these services, meaning charged on these services, meaning colleges cannot recover VAT on their costs. Further education colleges are currently outside the scope of VAT refund schemes that allow some public bodies, such as schools and maintained by local authorities, to recover their VAT. The government is continuing to look into the VAT position of these colleges.

15:00

Lord Forbes of Newcastle (Labour)

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Can I thank my noble friend the Minister, for that response and as he absolutely correctly identifies, since 2011, Fe colleges, unlike councils, academies and almost all other public sector organisations, have been unable to reclaim VAT costs from the government's refund scheme. LEZ research estimates this to be a loss to the sector of £200 million a year. This puts college students at a funding disadvantage compared to their peers in state funded schools, and reduces resources for courses in government priority areas such as construction, engineering, digital and health.

Given my Lords that college has delivered disproportionately to young people from more disadvantaged backgrounds, and in the context of the current national crisis of young people not in education, employment or training, will the government therefore commit to reviewing this funding equity inequity for the Fe sector as part of its cross-departmental response to the Milburn Review?

15:01

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Yes. the government is continuing to look into the VAT position of these colleges. Of course, admitting colleges. Of course, admitting further education colleges to a VAT refund scheme would be a change in tax policy. And as my noble friend knows, the Chancellor makes decisions on tax policy at fiscal events. In the context of the overall public finances. I do agree with my noble friend about the importance of Fe colleges. That's why we are investing in Fe colleges £1.7 billion to support them to maintain their estates, £375 million to expand capacity for post 16 education, £590 million to support priorities such as recruitment and retention, and £295 million into 29 Technical Excellence excellence colleges to support key sectors for growth, including construction, engineering and manufacturing.

15:02

Lord Deben (Conservative)

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Accept that there are some areas where the law has already told HMRC where the law has already told HMRC that it ought not to be demanding VAT, for example, on agricultural VAT, for example, on agricultural shows, and they refuse to accept that the law and they keep on standing in the way of spreading what they've had to do for the Great Yorkshire Show to other shows. And it's also true that the HMRC has lost its case about plug in electric cars, and it is supposed to reduce the VAT to the same level as you pay at home.

So at the moment it is penalising people who don't have a drive and therefore people who do have a drive get their VAT very much lower. Why does he not intervene and make the HMRC accept the law? Yes, well.

15:02

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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There's a lot there. I I'm very >> There's a lot there. I I'm very confident that HMRC does accept the law and is in as as is following the law, but I'm more than happy to

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the law, but I'm more than happy to look into the points that I will Lord Willis. I return back to colleges and the original question from Lord the original question from Lord Forbes, and I want to follow up on the issue that Lord Forbes raised in terms of the amount of VAT that is collected from colleges. If I heard Lord Forbes right, about 200 million, what assessment have you done about the opportunity cost in done about the opportunity cost in terms of actually improving facilities, more equipment and staff training that could be staff training that could be delivered if colleges were able to get that 200 million VAT refunded? Yeah.

15:03

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

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Well, as I've already said, the government is aware of this issue and we're looking into the VAT position of these colleges. But as I've also said, we have significantly increased the amount

15:03

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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of funding that is going to colleges to do. I think the exact things that the noble Lord is things that the noble Lord is asking for, as I've said, £1.7 billion to support colleges to maintain their estates, 375 million maintain their estates, 375 million to expand capacity for post 16 education, amongst other investment. education, amongst other investment. Although the funding gap has halved in the last ten years, PHE continues to play second fiddle to continues to play second fiddle to H.E.

in many respects. Beyond this important VAT issue, does the Minister agree with the Milburn Review that colleges face a further disadvantage because of the way funding is provided on a lagged basis, which disincentivizes them

15:04

Lord Johnson of Marylebone (Conservative)

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from taking on NEETs, who are less likely to complete their studies and therefore bring funding to the institution than other than other types of student. Well, yes, I think there's a great deal to be think there's a great deal to be said in favour of what Alan Milburn sets out in his interim review. He's published his interim review

15:04

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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He's published his interim review setting out the drivers of youth unemployment and and clearly, some of the issues that the noble Lord of the issues that the noble Lord raises are very important to that factor in the rise in economic inactivity among those with health conditions. He will set out his final report later in the year, at which point he will also set out his policy recommendations. And I look forward to him doing so.

15:05

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

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Picking up. >> Said. >> The college sector really is the poor man of the education system in this country, and this follows years of neglect. I have to say, by previous conservative governments. previous conservative governments. My noble friend the Minister has read out a number of different improvements in the resourcing of these colleges. But would he agree that there also needs to be greater parity with respect to the pay of those who work in colleges? They are worse paid than those who teach in.

Sixth formers are much worse paid than those who teach in universities. In spite of the fact that neither of those groups are particularly highly paid. So would he look into this with the Department of Education to see whether there can be some improvement in their pay and in the training of leaders in colleges, so that we can get better skills training in order to support the economy, and indeed, a better deal for those young people who do not want to follow an academic route and go to university.

15:06

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Well, I certainly agree with my noble friend's overall point that we want to see greater levels of parity between Fe colleges and other educational establishments, where government is delivering on where government is delivering on the measures. In our post 16 Skills White Paper to develop the skilled workforce our economy needs and to reach the target for two thirds of young people to participate in higher level learning. If colleges are absolutely a vital part of that, one thing I haven't yet read out is the fact that, recognising rising student numbers, the government is providing £87 million in exceptional in-year growth payments to colleges this year, and is increasing funding by nearly £800 million next year.

15:06

Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)

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So it's as noble Lords know. I'm a huge supporter of vocational a huge supporter of vocational education, so I welcome this question. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree with Lord Forbes that it would cost the Exchequer £200 million to extend the scheme in the way proposed, and more generally, does the government consider that the criteria for being able to reclaim VAT are fit for purpose?

15:07

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Well, I think both of those points are swept up in the point I've already made, that the government is looking into this, into the VAT position of these colleges, and we will continue to

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do so. My Lords, another funding disparity currently planned for the disparity currently planned for the next academic year relates to funding for free meals for students

15:07

Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Labour)

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from poorer backgrounds. I strongly welcome the expansion of welcome the expansion of eligibility for free meals, but in my experience, teenagers who attend my experience, teenagers who attend DfE colleges are no less hungry than those who attend schools. So than those who attend schools. So will my noble friend agree to look again at the funding uprating for

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again at the funding uprating for free meals? Yes. I'm grateful to my noble friend for her question. Yes, absolutely. I hear what she says. I can reassure her that the government is aware of this discrepancy and we are actively looking into it.

15:07

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Why does the government so. to give some back by way of grants to try and help pay for it? Isn't that just a double handling charge that just a double handling charge we don't need? Yeah.

15:08

Lord Redwood (Conservative)

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Yes. Although overhauling the VAT system may be something of a long term project.

15:08

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Everything that Baroness Blackstone has just said about the disparity in pay between Fe lecturers and school teachers, and the inequity of that, and the fact that Fe is simply not treated in the same way as other educational systems. The noble Lord keeps saying the government is looking saying the government is looking into this. Can he put some time scale on that, please? Is it looking into it this year, next year, way in the future?

15:08

Baroness Garden of Frognal (Liberal Democrat)

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As I've said, we are looking into the VAT position of these colleges, and I'm not in a position to put a timescale on that just now.

15:08

Lord Livermore, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Labour)

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Lord Pack Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

15:08

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)

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My Lords, the. >> Government has published all available material, with the exception of the small number of documents that are withheld at the request of the Metropolitan Police, making it the largest ever government response to a Humble Address. The government now considers that it has duly discharged the duties set out in this Humble Address.

15:09

Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)

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In recent days, we've seen the >> In recent days, we've seen the passing to the media of various WhatsApp messages which were not handed to the government for publication as part of the Humble Address. Now, obviously, we don't know who has passed those messages to the media, but doesn't it highlight the importance of ensuring that current and former Ministers and ministerial appointees fully cooperate with such processes? So with the noble Lady, the Minister, commit to reviewing the terms for the taxpayer funded settlement payments or pensions for such people in order to ensure that if in future people don't comply with such processes fully, there are financial consequences.

15:09

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)

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For the noble Lord Rose is a very important point about compliance with the. Will both of your Lordships House, but of the other place with regards to a Humble Address with regards to the Humble Address with regards to the specifics about any penalties, the government has no plans currently to change the ministerial pension scheme, as I've put in writing several times to the noble Baroness, Lady Finn. However, I appreciate where the noble Lords concern and I'm sure there will be ongoing reviews.

15:10

Lord Harper (Conservative)

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Well, can I just probe the Minister a little more on that question? The messages that were published between Lord Mandelson and the Chief Secretary to the and the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister were clearly within the terms of the Humble Address. They were not published. That raises two questions. One, why did the Minister not make them available? And the second question is, what confidence does that give us that all of the rest of the information that was in scope of the Humble Address has actually been published.

How can the noble Lady, the Minister, give us that confidence?

15:10

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)

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My Lords, if I can start with the second point of the noble Lord, this was an official led process. There was no politicians involved in the determination of what was and what was not published, but and what was not published, but 1500 documents were published only a week ago with regards to the. Any correspondence related to the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister proactively disclosed to the other House twice last week that he had exchanged messages with Peter Mandelson, but these were no longer available to him to disclose as part of the Humble Address.

So, as he stated in the other place, if he continue to have access to those messages, he would have he would have disclosed them as part of his return. He doesn't have access to the messages. I play something else. emergence.

15:11

Baroness Finn (Conservative)

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Of the Darren Jones texts. >> Can the noble Baroness give assurances that there are no other withheld ministerial communications withheld ministerial communications that will emerge? And given that the confidence in this process has been shaken, as my noble friend Lord Harper said, can she now commit to publishing the schedule, identifying exactly what material is being withheld at the request of the Metropolitan Police?

15:12

Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)

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The noble, as I have said many times from this Dispatch Box, I think this might be my fourth outing on the Humble Address, which also will make it the noble also will make it the noble Baroness fourth outing. On the Humble Address, I have been very clear that we would have delivered and that we would have. That we have published everything that is available to us, that this was an official led process that has been that has been done in kind. And we are convinced that we are we are adamant and the officials are adamant that we have fully complied with the Humble Address with regards to a schedule of documents.

There is a. As I have discussed with the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, let me be very clear. We. There are three buckets of information which I have said on record before about categories of information that will not be published. They are a small number of documents they released to National security vetting material, conflict of interest process material and internal correspondence with Peter Mandelson as and when the Met Police believe it is appropriate to do so, they

20:15

Lord Moylan (Conservative)

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This debate has concluded

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