Work and Pensions Committee
Wednesday 2nd September 2026
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09:29
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
A day for this session by Sir Stephen Timms, who's the Minister for inquiry into safeguarding. One year on review. And we're joined for Social Security. And you have quite a long title there, Stephen. So for the Department for Minister of State, Minister for equalities in the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. Very warm welcome. Lovely to see you as always. And you're joined by Doctor Gail Allsop, who's the chief medical adviser for the DWP.
Claire Talbot very warm welcome Claire. This is your first session with us. So welcome to you. And you are Deputy director for support to engage. And then finally Neil Cooling, who's director general, the DWP Services and fraud in the DWP. And you've been a guest many, many times over the years. Neil. So warm. Welcome to to you as 50 we reckon.
How many. 5050. Oh my goodness. I think even more than I. The Public
Claire Talbot very warm welcome Claire. This is your first session with us. So welcome to you. And you are Deputy director for support to engage. And then finally Neil Cooling, who's director general, the DWP Services and fraud in the DWP. And you've been a guest many, many times over the years. Neil. So warm. Welcome to to you as 50 we reckon.
How many. 5050. Oh my goodness. I think even more than I. The Public
09:30
09:30
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Yes. And I've attended one of those as well. Well thank you again for joining us. All levity aside, this is a very, very important theme, and it's something that the members of the committee have taken very seriously. And this is why we wanted to review this. This particular report that we presented last May, just to see what progress there has been. And just to remind us that that this was driven by the levels of of deaths of claimants.
And our real concern given, for example, the prevention of future death notices from coroners as as well. So I'm going to start and I nice open one for you here, Stephen. Just tell us what you feel the progress has been over the last ten years.
And our real concern given, for example, the prevention of future death notices from coroners as as well. So I'm going to start and I nice open one for you here, Stephen. Just tell us what you feel the progress has been over the last ten years.
09:31
09:31
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Thank you very much for inviting us over the last year. Right. Indeed, over the last ten years, not so much. I'm hoping that it's a better. I'll concentrate on the last year. Yeah. Thank you very much for inviting us back. And I do think the committee's report on this was a very important report that has had a big impact on the department , and what we've worked for in the past year is a big change in the culture of the department towards a more personalised and a more supportive approach.
We've improved our approach to safeguarding as that's defined in legislation and also our approach to supporting vulnerable people, dealing with the benefit system more broadly. We've rolled out safeguarding training widely across the department. We are tracking now all safeguarding referrals raised in health benefit assessments, which we didn't used to do. We're developing mental health training to help staff do a better job in supporting vulnerable people who they're dealing with.
6500 staff have gone through trauma informed training, and that's now part of the induction for staff working in the jobs and careers service. And we've started publishing, learning from internal process reviews. Those are all important changes. We will assess the progress that we've made at the end of this year. We've got a five year plan and there's certainly more to do, and I'm keen to hear from the committee what you think the priorities should be.
Thank you. So you may have seen or had a briefing from the June session for the first oral evidence session in this review inquiry. And we had members from the from Nowra, as well as the joint convenor of the National Association of Adult Safeguarding Boards. I think they were quite, quite fair and did say that there were some positive things that we needed to to acknowledge. So particularly Doctor Pure, your role was seen as a A plus, that there was an MOU memorandum of understanding with safeguarding boards.
I thought that was all very positive, but but it was also said that they weren't sure if momentum had been maintained. There's a sense that the department's pace had slowed down, perhaps because the enormity of the task of embedding improved safeguarding practices across the DWP, and particularly the the conflict between safeguarding individuals and other drivers, other drivers, for example, in terms of getting people into work and still quite a strong onus on on sanctions.
So there were there was that acknowledgement around that. And I do, you know, urge you to to if you haven't had a. And this applies to everyone details of that session, please do get that. I've had a look at it and I welcome the the acknowledgement, as you say, of the progress that's been made. But I also agree, as witnesses to that committee pointed out, there's more to do. I don't think the momentum has slackened off or certainly from my perspective, it hasn't.
But there's undoubtedly a great deal, a great deal more to do. Okay. You mentioned your in your remarks at the start, Stephen, that there has been a change in culture. And again, that was something that they picked up and they really queried whether that is actually the case. And they mentioned, particularly in terms of the advanced customer support, senior leaders and the the difficulty when they are trying to, to make changes in terms of how that is responded to.
So I don't know if that is something that had been has been picked up. Well, the cells have a very important role in the department and they've been doing a lot. I mean, I made the point that we've you know, we've started in this last year on a big programme of culture change. I'm not claiming that that's been completed, but I do think that change is underway. And the role of the cells is a very important one.
For example, you know, they've maintained relationships with about 1200 external organisations. They've received 6500 referrals from external organisations over this period. 2526 I haven't had feedback from them that they're finding it, you know, getting harder or. I certainly haven't picked that up. If the committee has picked that up, I'd be interested to know about it. But they've got an important role. They're doing an important job and I think they're doing it well.
Okay. So one of the things that was picked up by the witnesses in the first session was it's still not possible for welfare rights advisers and others to have a direct line to axles and describing it as a as a bit of a gatekeeping issue. So I don't know if you want to comment on that.
We've improved our approach to safeguarding as that's defined in legislation and also our approach to supporting vulnerable people, dealing with the benefit system more broadly. We've rolled out safeguarding training widely across the department. We are tracking now all safeguarding referrals raised in health benefit assessments, which we didn't used to do. We're developing mental health training to help staff do a better job in supporting vulnerable people who they're dealing with.
6500 staff have gone through trauma informed training, and that's now part of the induction for staff working in the jobs and careers service. And we've started publishing, learning from internal process reviews. Those are all important changes. We will assess the progress that we've made at the end of this year. We've got a five year plan and there's certainly more to do, and I'm keen to hear from the committee what you think the priorities should be.
Thank you. So you may have seen or had a briefing from the June session for the first oral evidence session in this review inquiry. And we had members from the from Nowra, as well as the joint convenor of the National Association of Adult Safeguarding Boards. I think they were quite, quite fair and did say that there were some positive things that we needed to to acknowledge. So particularly Doctor Pure, your role was seen as a A plus, that there was an MOU memorandum of understanding with safeguarding boards.
I thought that was all very positive, but but it was also said that they weren't sure if momentum had been maintained. There's a sense that the department's pace had slowed down, perhaps because the enormity of the task of embedding improved safeguarding practices across the DWP, and particularly the the conflict between safeguarding individuals and other drivers, other drivers, for example, in terms of getting people into work and still quite a strong onus on on sanctions.
So there were there was that acknowledgement around that. And I do, you know, urge you to to if you haven't had a. And this applies to everyone details of that session, please do get that. I've had a look at it and I welcome the the acknowledgement, as you say, of the progress that's been made. But I also agree, as witnesses to that committee pointed out, there's more to do. I don't think the momentum has slackened off or certainly from my perspective, it hasn't.
But there's undoubtedly a great deal, a great deal more to do. Okay. You mentioned your in your remarks at the start, Stephen, that there has been a change in culture. And again, that was something that they picked up and they really queried whether that is actually the case. And they mentioned, particularly in terms of the advanced customer support, senior leaders and the the difficulty when they are trying to, to make changes in terms of how that is responded to.
So I don't know if that is something that had been has been picked up. Well, the cells have a very important role in the department and they've been doing a lot. I mean, I made the point that we've you know, we've started in this last year on a big programme of culture change. I'm not claiming that that's been completed, but I do think that change is underway. And the role of the cells is a very important one.
For example, you know, they've maintained relationships with about 1200 external organisations. They've received 6500 referrals from external organisations over this period. 2526 I haven't had feedback from them that they're finding it, you know, getting harder or. I certainly haven't picked that up. If the committee has picked that up, I'd be interested to know about it. But they've got an important role. They're doing an important job and I think they're doing it well.
Okay. So one of the things that was picked up by the witnesses in the first session was it's still not possible for welfare rights advisers and others to have a direct line to axles and describing it as a as a bit of a gatekeeping issue. So I don't know if you want to comment on that.
09:37
09:37
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
I think the the whole department needs to engage properly with welfare rights advisers and benefit advisers. I don't think it is just a job for axles. Now, if people in the department have an approach from welfare rights organization and they need some help, then they can certainly go to an axle for that help. But I don't think I don't think it would be the role of axles to be accessible to every welfare rights organization.
So it's a support role that they have, and it's a very important one. Okay. Well, let's get back to something then. That was one of the core recommendations. That was about how the whole department changes, how it works, the system based approach, a safeguarding integrated into all that we do at all levels from the top, right through. Again, doctor, that was Gail. That was one of the things that was picked up as a positive, but I wondered how that works in practice.
When the Secretary of State, for example, was with us also in June, he mentioned that there was no specific reports that you do. It is more a question of ad hoc feeding in of your. Your concerns about a particular policy. Is that the best way to go about identifying particular risks associated with a policy as it's being developed and goes through the implementation process. So
So it's a support role that they have, and it's a very important one. Okay. Well, let's get back to something then. That was one of the core recommendations. That was about how the whole department changes, how it works, the system based approach, a safeguarding integrated into all that we do at all levels from the top, right through. Again, doctor, that was Gail. That was one of the things that was picked up as a positive, but I wondered how that works in practice.
When the Secretary of State, for example, was with us also in June, he mentioned that there was no specific reports that you do. It is more a question of ad hoc feeding in of your. Your concerns about a particular policy. Is that the best way to go about identifying particular risks associated with a policy as it's being developed and goes through the implementation process. So
09:39
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
there's been a lot of work in this space. My team has grown quite substantially over the last few years, so we now have a team of 60 in my clinical team who work within the clinical policy area. And you're absolutely right, there is no specific one report that I write unless that's on something like clinical governance, which is within my domain. What we have managed to do is work across the whole of our policy colleagues and across the department, really to look at culture change again, as the minister was talking about.
And we've done a point scale effectively. So we looked at when we first went in a year ago and saying, how confident were people at engaging the clinical team and asking for advice? And actually, if you're looking at a point of of ten, it was around about 3.5. We've done lots of culture change, and that's now gone up to a score of over 7.5. So something like 115% increase in the confidence of engaging with us.
And what we have found now is people are engaging as much more early in the process. And if for some reason people don't engages, I also have access to the ministerial inboxes, which means any piece of advice that is going up to ministers or the Secretary of State I get to see anyway. So I read every single piece of advice. And if we don't think the clinical team have had input when it should do, we then contact the team, or we speak with the ministers to make sure that that advice is taken on board.
So I really do think things have changed quite substantially over the last year.
And we've done a point scale effectively. So we looked at when we first went in a year ago and saying, how confident were people at engaging the clinical team and asking for advice? And actually, if you're looking at a point of of ten, it was around about 3.5. We've done lots of culture change, and that's now gone up to a score of over 7.5. So something like 115% increase in the confidence of engaging with us.
And what we have found now is people are engaging as much more early in the process. And if for some reason people don't engages, I also have access to the ministerial inboxes, which means any piece of advice that is going up to ministers or the Secretary of State I get to see anyway. So I read every single piece of advice. And if we don't think the clinical team have had input when it should do, we then contact the team, or we speak with the ministers to make sure that that advice is taken on board.
So I really do think things have changed quite substantially over the last year.
09:40
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
And I asked then two two examples. Then we have we know, Stephen, your your heading up as a co-chair of the Co-produced Tims Review. What engagement has Gail had in terms of proposals that you may be putting forward around that? Gail and her team have had a big role in that review and Gail, to say more about.
09:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I have a member of my team embedded in the Tims review. So there is a clinician. Excuse me, who is fully embedded within the team and is actually part of the Tims review team and who makes sure that she she's been educating the panel, she's been supporting the panel, but she's also involved in the policy making. And then that's escalated out to other members of the team, depending on what the ask of the Tims review is so fully, fully embedded.
09:41
09:41
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah. So again, we have a member of my team who is associated with the Melbourne Review, not embedded in because the Melbourne Review is an independent review. And obviously that needs to be independent. And it's really important that independent stands there. We're working with not only NHS England and Department of Health colleagues who are interacting with the Melbourne Review, but also regularly in those update meetings and making sure that we're there. We're listening.
We're feeding in when appropriate.
We're feeding in when appropriate.
09:41
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
That's again, that is is is very constructive as well. So would you feel assured your your last session here? Would you feel reassured that if there was, for example, a, another policy announcement, such as the change in winter fuel payments or whatever that that you, your team would be directly involved in that because they weren't, if I remember correctly, the last when that happened.
09:42
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's much more likely we will be involved. Can I say 100%? I can't say 100% at the beginning of the development. But I think because we have that backstop of me reviewing everything that's sent up to ministers, as long as those submissions go via that ministerial inbox, then there is the catch approach that we're doing, which means then we can become involved, even if it's at a late stage now.
09:42
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Very helpful. Thank you so much. My my last question to you, if I may, Gail, is, is in terms of the the work with coroners, one of our recommendations was in terms of you working with or the department, working with coroners to have a better understanding in terms of. The deaths that aren't being reported. So John will be coming on to the IPR process and the deaths of claimants that we get annually reported.
But we all know that that is really the tip of the iceberg. And our recommendation around coroners was to try and ensure that we could have a more reliable data set that would enable the department to know the seriousness of, of, of that. What work have you done with coroners to try and get that understanding?
But we all know that that is really the tip of the iceberg. And our recommendation around coroners was to try and ensure that we could have a more reliable data set that would enable the department to know the seriousness of, of, of that. What work have you done with coroners to try and get that understanding?
09:43
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There's a shared approach by myself and Claire. So Claire now takes over and leads the coroner's team and the inquest team that's there. But one of the things that we've done and silo working is something I've always been very worried about in the department. But one of the things we've done, we work so very closely together is we've actually brought together what we're calling a multidisciplinary team approach, where we we actually have a triage process now. So anything that comes into the department, whether it is related to a coroner or an inquest or whether it's an internal process review, whether it's a domestic violence death investigation, comes now through this multidisciplinary triage.
And that then looks at how are we tracking it? How are we monitoring? How can we then feed the learning back? So I think we're in a much better place. Are we there completely? Absolutely not. I think there's work to do, Claire, but. But is in very safe hands with Claire.
And that then looks at how are we tracking it? How are we monitoring? How can we then feed the learning back? So I think we're in a much better place. Are we there completely? Absolutely not. I think there's work to do, Claire, but. But is in very safe hands with Claire.
09:44
09:44
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So we track the IP in the cases that we have and we know about. Obviously there are lots of cases with coroners that we we won't be aware of. And we don't always know cause of death. So not an automatic reporting, but and we have really strengthened our links with coroners. We have a much clearer central focal point. We have enhanced engagement. And we are learning not just from, you know, inquests where there's a prevention of future death report, but for any learning points.
And we look and look and see our own internal learning as well.
And we look and look and see our own internal learning as well.
09:45
09:45
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
really difficult, isn't it, because we deal with so many people in the department. We have over 20 million people that we deal with every single year. And so therefore, the number of deaths that will happen in that population are high. Just because somebody is in touch with the department doesn't mean there's any causality with their death. No,
09:45
09:45
09:45
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
not I'm not suggesting that, but I did some work on this back in 2014. We know that there is a higher rate of death for, for people on on I, for example, than the population as a whole. It's not at all to suggest that there's a causality, but what I am saying is , what would be the negatives about automatic reporting of somebody that was on Social Security support, whatever form that that. And if they died that there would be reported to the department.
At the moment it's a big gap. And we don't know. We don't know the the actual numbers. And I'll leave it with you. The next question I very quickly.
At the moment it's a big gap. And we don't know. We don't know the the actual numbers. And I'll leave it with you. The next question I very quickly.
09:46
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
I just finish my question and I'll bring you in. The next question is on metrics. We the metrics that we have so far are around very much inputs focused about training in terms of comms and so on. What are what are the proposals around a more comprehensive set of metrics, which are outcome and output focused?
09:46
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I can talk about what we've done in the clinical world, and I think what you have to remember is when I came in in 2023, so we're we're sort of 2 or 3 years ahead of the operational side of the department in the clinical space. When we're looking at metrics, what we have tracked over the last 12 months. So if you look from September until July in the health assessment space, where our 5500 health care professionals are, we now track any time that an individual comes in with a vulnerability that shows that their health has deteriorated.
And particularly, I think, of interest to this committee is mental health. So 57000 times since September last year, our health care professionals have moved onwards and referred onwards individuals that have had a deterioration in either their physical or mental health, and 37,000 of those relate to mental health issues. Now, what does that mean? In some cases, that would mean calling an ambulance because actually the person is really in a very severe state.
In some cases, it would require picking up the phone to a GP surgery and talking to their GP surgery and arranging an appointment. In other cases, it's writing a letter because they're overusing their medication or something like that. So that's a significant number in terms of vulnerabilities and particularly mental health. The other thing that we've done is we've tracked all of our safeguarding referrals. So if during those health assessments and if we if we look to the end of June, which was in our clinical governance report this year of the when we're looking at 1.3 million assessments, I think there are about 1500 times those health care professionals were really concerned about safeguarding and 991 times, I think it was.
They actually ended up making a referral to the local authority for further investigation to make sure that the person was safe. And we now track, and we know that 50% of those relate to child safeguarding issues. So young carers or neglect and 50% relate to adult safeguarding issues. So very commonly again, neglect, but also physical harm, emotional abuse, financial abuse, lots of things when we're tracking those. So we are much further ahead. And the aim in the operational side is to do a similar thing.
But we need to build the systems to be able to track those in the operational side.
And particularly, I think, of interest to this committee is mental health. So 57000 times since September last year, our health care professionals have moved onwards and referred onwards individuals that have had a deterioration in either their physical or mental health, and 37,000 of those relate to mental health issues. Now, what does that mean? In some cases, that would mean calling an ambulance because actually the person is really in a very severe state.
In some cases, it would require picking up the phone to a GP surgery and talking to their GP surgery and arranging an appointment. In other cases, it's writing a letter because they're overusing their medication or something like that. So that's a significant number in terms of vulnerabilities and particularly mental health. The other thing that we've done is we've tracked all of our safeguarding referrals. So if during those health assessments and if we if we look to the end of June, which was in our clinical governance report this year of the when we're looking at 1.3 million assessments, I think there are about 1500 times those health care professionals were really concerned about safeguarding and 991 times, I think it was.
They actually ended up making a referral to the local authority for further investigation to make sure that the person was safe. And we now track, and we know that 50% of those relate to child safeguarding issues. So young carers or neglect and 50% relate to adult safeguarding issues. So very commonly again, neglect, but also physical harm, emotional abuse, financial abuse, lots of things when we're tracking those. So we are much further ahead. And the aim in the operational side is to do a similar thing.
But we need to build the systems to be able to track those in the operational side.
09:49
09:49
Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
Thank you. Just very briefly, it was just about the coroner's report. I know I review coroner's report to see if there's any failures in systems for constituents of mine. So it isn't that difficult. And isn't it possible for AI to assist the department in integrating those reports to see where there might be any obvious flags, and then a human actually see whether there's opportunities to learn from that.
09:49
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I think I mean, it's not talk about AI and what it can and can't do. I think some of the talk is in front of what the AI can actually do at the moment, but it has that potential. I mean, what we do know is that there are 36,000 coroner's inquests in a year. We are asked we were asked for evidence last year on 12 of those. So, you know, there's not a preponderance.
I don't think of a DWP involvement, but we'd certainly think about if there are ways of gleaning the kind of information, the way that you suggest. Mr. Darling. Thank you.
I don't think of a DWP involvement, but we'd certainly think about if there are ways of gleaning the kind of information, the way that you suggest. Mr. Darling. Thank you.
09:50
09:50
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
Thank you. Good morning. I want to start off with a constituency case just to bring bring alive to to the what we're talking about today. I was approached by the the constituents partner because during a universal credit. Application, during that process, the mental health state of that individual deteriorated to the point of suicide. I wrote to the department on three occasions in August, on the 10th, on the 17th and the 20th.
No substantive response. She was hospitalized. The. And the. And then I wrote to you, Sir Stephen, I don't believe I've received a substantive response. I'm raising this case because MPs will receive. When their system failure, as it seems in this case, which needs to be investigated, you know, desperate constituents with family members who are very concerned about their state of health, which is triggered by the assessment process and handling and mismanagement of such processes when they go wrong.
So what I would like is for something to be done to ensure that it doesn't require a member of Parliament to write constantly in a critical case, and then have to resort to going to the minister's office. And my understanding is I still don't think I don't I've checked I don't believe I've received a substantive response, that some action has been triggered as a result, but appointments have been created and cancelled, which is adding insult to injury in these in this situation.
So meanwhile, so so the problem is that these sorts of cases are still unfortunately widespread. I appreciate everything that's being done, but we cannot have a situation where not everybody will go or know to go to their member of Parliament. And even when members of Parliament are contacting ministers offices in critical circumstances, things can take time, which can be a matter of life and death here. So can you tell us what action the Department is taking to deal with the interface between MPs and constituents, so that we can be assured that there are people in place in the department who are able to spot these very critical cases that could become very serious, already serious, but could be a matter of life and death that are actioned quickly.
No substantive response. She was hospitalized. The. And the. And then I wrote to you, Sir Stephen, I don't believe I've received a substantive response. I'm raising this case because MPs will receive. When their system failure, as it seems in this case, which needs to be investigated, you know, desperate constituents with family members who are very concerned about their state of health, which is triggered by the assessment process and handling and mismanagement of such processes when they go wrong.
So what I would like is for something to be done to ensure that it doesn't require a member of Parliament to write constantly in a critical case, and then have to resort to going to the minister's office. And my understanding is I still don't think I don't I've checked I don't believe I've received a substantive response, that some action has been triggered as a result, but appointments have been created and cancelled, which is adding insult to injury in these in this situation.
So meanwhile, so so the problem is that these sorts of cases are still unfortunately widespread. I appreciate everything that's being done, but we cannot have a situation where not everybody will go or know to go to their member of Parliament. And even when members of Parliament are contacting ministers offices in critical circumstances, things can take time, which can be a matter of life and death here. So can you tell us what action the Department is taking to deal with the interface between MPs and constituents, so that we can be assured that there are people in place in the department who are able to spot these very critical cases that could become very serious, already serious, but could be a matter of life and death that are actioned quickly.
09:53
09:53
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Yeah, I should in terms of letters, to me, there was a serious problem over the course of the last year and replies to MPs letters were taking far too long. I'm very pleased. That has largely now been overcome, and I am able to reply much more quickly to the letters I received. I think as of this morning there are 17 replies to MPs waiting for my attention. I will go through every single one of them before that reply is sent out in my name, and I'll certainly have a look at what's happened to your letter and where that's got to.
But I do very much hope that problems. I mean, obviously, I don't know the details of this case. I don't know whether you want to tell us a bit more about what what happened.
But I do very much hope that problems. I mean, obviously, I don't know the details of this case. I don't know whether you want to tell us a bit more about what what happened.
09:54
09:54
09:54
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
Because it's a confidential matter, but I wanted to highlight it as a general concern in relation to the, you know, we need confidence that we can't we don't expect you to have to deal with it, but your officials to be able to get on it fast and respond to us so that we can support our constituents because it's it's very desperate in these sorts of situations. I
09:54
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
mean, it is very much my aim that the process that we are talking about this morning, and we will, at the end of this year, review what progress we've made over the past year. As I say, we've got a five year plan here. So it's you know, we're at the start of a process, but it is very much our aim that this will significantly improve the experience of people like the constituent who can.
09:55
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
I take you to a broader question, which is about sanctions, because this case and other cases like this are what in this case, I have been told there is the sanctions and the fear of sanctions has worsened that individual's mental state to the point of a suicide attempt. So what can you say? And perhaps also you can come in as well about what has been done in relation to those who are vulnerable and will come on to vulnerability and definitions and safeguarding, where the sanction scheme system doesn't actually make matters worse, because at the moment, cases like this show that the do no harm position is not being followed.
09:56
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Well, the department does recognise that taking up a one size fits all approach to people coming into the department is not the right approach, and so our aim is to tailor the requirements that are made of people to their individual circumstances, supporting people to engage with the department, making sure that safeguards are in place for those who are vulnerable or have additional support needs. Now, by the sound of what you're saying, sanctions haven't been imposed in this case, but there was a kind of worry about sanctions.
Is that right? I mean, where sanctions are considered and sometimes they have to be, as I think the committee will recognise, then there are multiple checks before a sanction is imposed. There's independent decision making and we are looking at testing more personalized approaches still for the future. And I'm hoping that that will overcome the the problem that you're describing. But I do accept that inevitably there are sanctions in the system, and sometimes those sanctions will be imposed on on people who are vulnerable.
And the department has to do that with great care. And that's what we're aiming to do.
Is that right? I mean, where sanctions are considered and sometimes they have to be, as I think the committee will recognise, then there are multiple checks before a sanction is imposed. There's independent decision making and we are looking at testing more personalized approaches still for the future. And I'm hoping that that will overcome the the problem that you're describing. But I do accept that inevitably there are sanctions in the system, and sometimes those sanctions will be imposed on on people who are vulnerable.
And the department has to do that with great care. And that's what we're aiming to do.
09:57
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
Yeah. So I suppose this case and there'll be other cases like that where suicide attempts that people are, you know, in, in, in that where mental health issues are at play, which is which is leading to suicide attempts, we need confidence that that the individual personalised assessments take into account the vulnerability in, in ahead of any sanctions that are considered, or even likely because otherwise what we're going to see is that the actions of the of the Jobcentre Plus administrators, officials is actually doing harm, which clearly the state shouldn't be doing and not what any of us want.
Can you give us confidence that that's the direction of travel?
Can you give us confidence that that's the direction of travel?
09:58
09:58
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So one of the things that we're looking at, and this was actually as a response to the committee's report, when we looked, we focused very much on safeguarding. But then also looking at your report, it was much wider in terms of mental health support, particularly. So one of the things that the department has put into place, and this was following bringing lots and lots of people together. I chaired a meeting with lots of people across the department to look at how we could address this, and this is where our support to engage approach has come in and what we're calling support to engage.
This is an umbrella term which will encompass not only the safeguarding, which is built in statutory law, but also our reasonable adjustment approach and our vulnerability approach. So exactly what you're talking about to make sure that we have a single person and that that's Claire and Claire's team, and we've got a director general who's here with us today, Neil Calling, who is responsible for this work that will oversee that process. And there's a lot of activity in Jobcentres already that puts that support in place.
And there's a lot of training in place already for those work coaches. So
This is an umbrella term which will encompass not only the safeguarding, which is built in statutory law, but also our reasonable adjustment approach and our vulnerability approach. So exactly what you're talking about to make sure that we have a single person and that that's Claire and Claire's team, and we've got a director general who's here with us today, Neil Calling, who is responsible for this work that will oversee that process. And there's a lot of activity in Jobcentres already that puts that support in place.
And there's a lot of training in place already for those work coaches. So
09:59
09:59
09:59
09:59
09:59
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
To say something in the spending review. We have to apply for funding, as you know. And we did apply for spending for money within that spending review, which we were given. We're very grateful to be given. And that's been transferred now from my team to Claire's team, who will be taking the leadership. Is there a
10:00
10:00
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10:00
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
Yeah. We recommended that DWP develop an additional support toolkit. I mean you mentioned some of the work you're doing, which is great, so that it's easier for claimants and support organisations to navigate the system. And obviously, the chair's already picked up on the support organisations. We've got National Advice Week coming up. We we know the amount of work they do, which supports us as a members of Parliament when we're having to, to support our constituents.
The navigation part is really important, including for us. The government said it would consider this recommendation after it outlined its approach to safeguarding . What considerations have been made of this, and is it forthcoming?
The navigation part is really important, including for us. The government said it would consider this recommendation after it outlined its approach to safeguarding . What considerations have been made of this, and is it forthcoming?
10:01
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Well, we are going to be setting out in the safeguarding policy framework as as I've said, that will be at the end of the year. Our approach, our principles and our responsibilities in what I hope will be a clear and accessible way. I don't think a toolkit as well will be needed. I think the framework itself will do the job. That's certainly our hope, but the committee will be able to make its mind about that when when it's seen it at the end of the year.
10:01
10:01
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
The the concern is that if you've got people in Jobcentre Plus in around the country and training is, is not mandatory. It's it's encouraged. Is there is there something to be said about making it more, more kind of tangible, specific because frameworks are helpful. But in terms of the how to, is there something to be said for providing more support and clarity for those who are at the front line doing difficult jobs? You know, they're the ones who are having to make challenging decisions and, and square, you know, balance between the different expectations of them right at the front line in the job centres and so on.
10:02
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So the training, because it's possible to get lost a bit in the labelling here, safeguarding, which we understand because we have to work with other organisations, has a distinct definition. Sure. We've had about 12,000 of our staff, mainly the front facing ones have gone through that. But vulnerability, which I think sometimes when the committee refers to safeguarding, it also means vulnerability. I'm
10:02
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Well, okay. So safeguarding. So identifying that somebody is at risk and then needs the action of an external entity. That is something that is at the moment voluntary, not in the health professional space. That's a mandatory requirement, but for our staff, because it's about identifying that there are these needs and referring them on to experts and professionals who can deal with that.
10:03
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
Well, with the greatest of respect, there is a question about whether it should be mandatory and question in relation to the case I gave you, and there are many others like that. I'm sorry, can I finish with the case I mentioned earlier? I'm not confident that safeguarding if if the people dealing with that case, it's not clear and there'll be others like that, whether if we can be sure that people have the appropriate training, that perhaps some of these issues wouldn't come up particularly, I'm particularly concerned about these critical cases, and it's just the need for ensuring that safeguarding training that we can be confident that the people in our Jobcentre Plus institutions that are serving our constituents are trained, capable on safeguarding, and it's not a hit and miss issue where you might get someone in front of you who's trained, who's doing a doing a very good job, and someone else who's not through no fault of their own, who isn't trained because it's not mandatory, is not as well trained and equipped to serve that constituency.
Let
Let
10:04
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
me just make a point on on this, that safeguarding, making sure that we spot whether somebody is at risk of harm, abuse, neglect. As Neil said, about 12,000 people have been through that training. So I think it was 300 at the start of this process. It's now 12,000 and the numbers going up by 1200 per month. Now, there may be a point at which we should make it mandatory, but for now we're concentrating with on getting the training out and getting large numbers of people through it.
We'll see how we get on. There may need to be a change, but wider vulnerability awareness, which may have been what was needed in the case of your constituent, I don't know.
We'll see how we get on. There may need to be a change, but wider vulnerability awareness, which may have been what was needed in the case of your constituent, I don't know.
10:05
Rushanara Ali
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Rushanara Ali
10:05
10:05
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
This year is our first year from our multi-year plan. It focuses really on having our strategic approach. As the minister said, we are publishing our framework at the end of the year. We also really building on capability and awareness, and we're trying to drive culture change here. And so we want this to be meaningful. We don't want this to be a tick box. I've done this lead learning. Let me move on. We want it really to resonate with people.
So alongside rolling that training, we are doing regular sessions. We've got lunch and learns, we have experts coming in. We lean heavily on Gail and and her safeguarding lead to support us on those cases. So and we run awareness sessions, we're breeding cases. So this is more than just about one off training. This is about building that case. But we, as the minister said, we are looking and considering what roles and responsibilities different, different training needs, how we tailor that and rolling that out.
But there's this first year is focusing on getting the department talking and recognising about safeguarding and feeling comfortable with that.
So alongside rolling that training, we are doing regular sessions. We've got lunch and learns, we have experts coming in. We lean heavily on Gail and and her safeguarding lead to support us on those cases. So and we run awareness sessions, we're breeding cases. So this is more than just about one off training. This is about building that case. But we, as the minister said, we are looking and considering what roles and responsibilities different, different training needs, how we tailor that and rolling that out.
But there's this first year is focusing on getting the department talking and recognising about safeguarding and feeling comfortable with that.
10:06
10:06
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
There was a definition in the government's response to the committee, and we set out there what we understand vulnerability to mean. I think it's fair to say that we are cautious about kind of publishing a fixed definition of vulnerability, because it's quite a fluid concept. I mean, quite often somebody will be vulnerable at one stage and then a bit later they're not, or they'll be fine one stage and then maybe a few weeks later, they they are vulnerable.
So I don't think vulnerability is a fixed concept. And the department has to be quite agile in spotting whether a particular person is vulnerable at a particular time. So, I mean, we have set out what we understand the term to mean, and I hope the committee is comfortable with what we've said. But I wouldn't want to overstate the significance that the Department is attaching to the definition, because it is quite a fluid concept, I think.
So I don't think vulnerability is a fixed concept. And the department has to be quite agile in spotting whether a particular person is vulnerable at a particular time. So, I mean, we have set out what we understand the term to mean, and I hope the committee is comfortable with what we've said. But I wouldn't want to overstate the significance that the Department is attaching to the definition, because it is quite a fluid concept, I think.
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10:08
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Yes, we did, and it was a useful and informative exercise. And actually the trade union PCs also conducted a survey which was useful. So. 95% of people responding to our survey recognise the importance of safeguarding. 87% said they felt confident identifying safeguarding concerns. 70% said they understood how to escalate safeguarding concerns. 57% said they understood how to document safeguarding concerns. So the survey identified a 38 percentage point gap between recognising the importance of safeguarding.
That was the 95% and understanding documentation processes. And, you know, that's indicated. I think some of the the work that we need to do. And then the PCs survey that was in 2024 indicated kind of mixed safeguarding knowledge amongst PCs members. But both those surveys have informed the development of our our strategy.
That was the 95% and understanding documentation processes. And, you know, that's indicated. I think some of the the work that we need to do. And then the PCs survey that was in 2024 indicated kind of mixed safeguarding knowledge amongst PCs members. But both those surveys have informed the development of our our strategy.
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10:10
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
It is civil service training. I've done it. It's quite an interesting program and it is offered across the Civil service. Yeah. And that's the one that 12 just over 12000 people have now done in the DWP, with about 1200 a month extra in new people every month. Thank you. Can I just pick up on what Lee was asking you then in relation to the surveys and so on? Is there any reason why these aren't published? Again, it gets back to some of the issues that were were mentioned in the first session, was the lack of transparency within the department.
Well, I suppose by by sort of reading out the headlines, in a sense, I am publishing it, I suppose, and I'm not quite sure there's a lot more than that. Steve. Well, yeah. I mean, I think the useful information from the survey, I think, is the information that I set out. But, you know, if the committee would like us to present more detail or there are particular points that you'd like us to tell you about, would be very happy to do so.
I completely agree with you, by the way, about the importance of transparency in this whole exercise. I think that's absolutely vital. It would be very helpful if we could have a comprehensive breakdown of the key themes in the survey and the results to from that as well. Thank you, thank you. We can provide. Thank you, thank you. That's very good of you. I'm now going to hand over to Steve darling.
Well, I suppose by by sort of reading out the headlines, in a sense, I am publishing it, I suppose, and I'm not quite sure there's a lot more than that. Steve. Well, yeah. I mean, I think the useful information from the survey, I think, is the information that I set out. But, you know, if the committee would like us to present more detail or there are particular points that you'd like us to tell you about, would be very happy to do so.
I completely agree with you, by the way, about the importance of transparency in this whole exercise. I think that's absolutely vital. It would be very helpful if we could have a comprehensive breakdown of the key themes in the survey and the results to from that as well. Thank you, thank you. We can provide. Thank you, thank you. That's very good of you. I'm now going to hand over to Steve darling.
10:11
Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
Thank you. So thank you so much for coming today. And we've heard about how there is an ongoing like a steamroller of training going on throughout the department. But how are you measuring the impact and effectiveness of this training? And I'm particularly interested on domestic abuse and trauma informed. So what evidence can you give the committee of what impact the light. Ofsted would say the.
So what you're doing all this training, what difference is it actually making and what evidence can you share with the committee that it's made?
So what you're doing all this training, what difference is it actually making and what evidence can you share with the committee that it's made?
10:12
10:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So as part of our multi-year plan on safeguarding, we will be evaluating and assessing as we're going along. At the end of year one, we'll be providing an assessment that's not just about reviewing our own operational data. It's about getting external partners, external experts, leaning heavily on the safeguarding expertise we have in the department to help us assess our progress that we've made. So looking at the end to end of what we're of what we're delivering on safeguarding, but it's about building that incremental approach, particularly on training, is one aspect of that awareness and capability building.
It's also, as Gail mentioned, about the quality of our referrals and getting that feedback from our external partners.
It's also, as Gail mentioned, about the quality of our referrals and getting that feedback from our external partners.
10:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Shall I give you the example? Because like I say, we're a couple of years ahead in the clinical space and in the health assessment space. So what we've done is, is not only do we look at our safeguarding referrals, we look at the learning from those, and we're actually bringing those together in what we call a training needs analysis. And that then feeds back in a feedback loop and really influences the training that we then do the following year for our health care assessors.
And that loop then continues. So it's this continuous improvement process. And what we what you find is that as you start to teach, you then see certain referrals reducing and certain certain referrals increasing because you're making people more aware of what's happening in that safeguarding space. And over time, as people learn more, you will pick up more. So what I would anticipate is we will see an absolute increase in referrals and an increase in things like IPS.
The more that we talk about it, the more that we teach. And indeed in the certainly in the health space, that's what we're seeing at the moment that because the more we're talking about it, the more we're training, the more we're looking at that training needs analysis. We're actually seeing the quality improve. We're seeing the numbers heightened, we're seeing engagement improving. And actually we're seeing that people are talking about it more and engaging much more.
I
And that loop then continues. So it's this continuous improvement process. And what we what you find is that as you start to teach, you then see certain referrals reducing and certain certain referrals increasing because you're making people more aware of what's happening in that safeguarding space. And over time, as people learn more, you will pick up more. So what I would anticipate is we will see an absolute increase in referrals and an increase in things like IPS.
The more that we talk about it, the more that we teach. And indeed in the certainly in the health space, that's what we're seeing at the moment that because the more we're talking about it, the more we're training, the more we're looking at that training needs analysis. We're actually seeing the quality improve. We're seeing the numbers heightened, we're seeing engagement improving. And actually we're seeing that people are talking about it more and engaging much more.
I
10:14
Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
hear what you're saying. That feels a bit two dimensional to me. And what I would really want to understand is really, how are you? I haven't heard any quality assurance testing. You know that that's a key, you know. Bingo. We've hit a mark there. You know, I haven't heard the word or sorry, the phrase professional curiosity. You know, in training , you can go through a training programme and you can be aware and you can signpost.
The next level is you can go through training and you will be able to engage with people in a meaningful manner. And then the third level, that's a lot more meaningful for me around domestic abuse. And having a trauma informed approach is actually having that professional curiosity and asking those questions that will turn over rocks and explain some of the trauma informed challenges that people none of the evidence that you've given me have given me that evidence of culture change that we really need to see within the department.
Prove me how I'm wrong, please, Steve.
The next level is you can go through training and you will be able to engage with people in a meaningful manner. And then the third level, that's a lot more meaningful for me around domestic abuse. And having a trauma informed approach is actually having that professional curiosity and asking those questions that will turn over rocks and explain some of the trauma informed challenges that people none of the evidence that you've given me have given me that evidence of culture change that we really need to see within the department.
Prove me how I'm wrong, please, Steve.
10:15
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
I mean, I think you're right, we don't have the evidence yet. We're at the beginning ish. You know, we're going to be publishing our assessment at the end of this year. It's going to be a five year programme. But I think those things you're asking for are in the processes that Claire has been describing, and that I'm certainly expect those to be part of the work as it as it unfolds. I don't know, Claire, whether you can say any more about that.
I
I
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10:16
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So one of the things we've done is we were getting to the safeguarding adult boards. We were getting rejections of our referrals. So we've taken that back to understand, well, why I mean, our referrals basically aren't the quality. They haven't got the information that the safeguarding adult boards need to conduct then a proper safeguarding review. So we were getting rejections on on those obviously don't want those rejections as we as Doctor Allsop said they count in the clinical area how many safeguarding reviews we are making into the safeguarding adult boards.
We're not counting those yet in the operational piece of the business. We will be counting those. So that will then give us some metrics to work off to understand the kind of quality questions you're rightly asking.
We're not counting those yet in the operational piece of the business. We will be counting those. So that will then give us some metrics to work off to understand the kind of quality questions you're rightly asking.
10:17
Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
Lovely. Thank you. Chair. I've got a more constituency base that I'd already dropped you a line on. And there is the potential. Well, there is the closure of Cotswold House occurring, which is seeing 130 jobs being lost in the constituency that I represent. And whilst there isn't, you know, it's not really for today to to quiz you on that. And I'm having a meeting with the appropriate minister around my concerns around that.
It does support some of the most vulnerable people in the country. And there's a service called the Migration Gathering pro forma one service, which is as clear as mud, I'm sure. But but that that's in respect of housing benefits and where there's been issues around housing benefits for individuals there. And then of course, there is the payment exception service, which for people, claimants who don't have bank accounts and how we support those individuals, these are clearly some of the most vulnerable people within our society.
And when I met with some of the staff there, of the 26 staff, they had over 545 years of experience, and a lot of these staff could be made redundant because there just aren't the opportunities locally to be taken back on into the DWP. So there is real threats to those two services. What assurances can you give me that those vulnerable people throughout the United Kingdom aren't going to be have a hammer blow to the service that they receive from the DWP by this closure at Cotswold House?
It does support some of the most vulnerable people in the country. And there's a service called the Migration Gathering pro forma one service, which is as clear as mud, I'm sure. But but that that's in respect of housing benefits and where there's been issues around housing benefits for individuals there. And then of course, there is the payment exception service, which for people, claimants who don't have bank accounts and how we support those individuals, these are clearly some of the most vulnerable people within our society.
And when I met with some of the staff there, of the 26 staff, they had over 545 years of experience, and a lot of these staff could be made redundant because there just aren't the opportunities locally to be taken back on into the DWP. So there is real threats to those two services. What assurances can you give me that those vulnerable people throughout the United Kingdom aren't going to be have a hammer blow to the service that they receive from the DWP by this closure at Cotswold House?
10:19
10:19
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, and I mean, the folk in Torquay are doing a really good job on those two particular areas. Payment exception service is a really good example. These are people who haven't got bank accounts, can't get bank accounts. So it's how they get their their money. We obviously will. This is not the only place in the country we do some of these services from. But clearly, if those people aren't going to be made redundant at the end of this exercise closure, then we will need to have put arrangements in place and planning is in action to do that.
If the individuals decide ultimately that they want to exit the organisation. It's part of our normal planning. We never really rely on just one site for obvious business continuity reasons. A site may be closed through, I don't know, flooding fire or something like that. So we always try to have a bit of contingency in the system, but we know we would need to do more when the site closes.
If the individuals decide ultimately that they want to exit the organisation. It's part of our normal planning. We never really rely on just one site for obvious business continuity reasons. A site may be closed through, I don't know, flooding fire or something like that. So we always try to have a bit of contingency in the system, but we know we would need to do more when the site closes.
10:20
Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
And just very briefly build on that, that experience. You know, I'm just surprised that working from home is not seen as an option in remote, seen as remote up in Exeter where the next area is, but it's often too far for people. You know, that depth of experience of that loss. How are you planning to mitigate that?
10:20
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
I'm acutely conscious that for a number of individuals, the public transport distance, you know, times to get to Exeter will just be too much for some people. Not hopefully not for everybody, but for some it will. Well, we clearly need to plan for skilling up other colleagues across the country to take up this work. If it's no longer being done in Torquay and that work is in hand to to do that, we clearly can't leave customers without payments and so forth.
10:21
10:21
Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
you. Can I just pick up on the first question that Steve mentioned? One of our recommendations was actually related to adding particular categories in relation to those that may be considered vulnerable. And this we are recommended to add victims of domestic abuse as a category within the Universal Credit additional support area. We never actually got a response to that recommendation, and it links directly back to what Steve is saying.
I wonder if you could revisit that, please.
I wonder if you could revisit that, please.
10:21
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10:22
John Milne
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John Milne
Thank you. Chair. Returning to the subject of sanctions, you were telling us earlier that there's lots of alternative sanctions regimes being considered, and some of them are being tried out right now. Can you give us an idea of progress on that? And also what what are the plans? Are these ideas centrally directed? In my own constituency of Horsham, the the Jobcentre seems to have been working largely on its own initiative in a in a milder sanctions regime.
So is this directional or is it, you know, what timescales are we looking at as well?
So is this directional or is it, you know, what timescales are we looking at as well?
10:22
10:22
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
Yeah. So as we implement the Jobs and careers service, one of the things that colleagues are looking at is the approach to sanctions and whether they're always appropriate. I mean, they've always been exceptions. In the case of Miss Ali's case, you know, somebody with those kinds of issues shouldn't be under threat of sanctions, for example. That's an our existing policy. But as previous witnesses have pointed out, this committee, it's not always followed through.
So naturally, you come back to us and say, how are you going to make sure that that, you know, there's adherence to your existing policies, but the jobs and careers service, because it expands the number of people that we are looking at and, and supporting will need to review whether sanctions are appropriate in certain circumstances or not. The other thing I would just mention when people ask me about sanctions is the National Audit Office. A while ago now looked at attendance in job centres, and it found in six months there are a million appointments that were missed.
So that's 2 million a year. The number of people we sanction is around 5%. So I don't think we're a sanction happy organisation. But with those kinds of volumes, you do need within the system some way of addressing repeated kind of non-compliance. So the kind of policy direction we're moving in is looking at repeated non-compliance rather than first offences getting getting a sanction.
So naturally, you come back to us and say, how are you going to make sure that that, you know, there's adherence to your existing policies, but the jobs and careers service, because it expands the number of people that we are looking at and, and supporting will need to review whether sanctions are appropriate in certain circumstances or not. The other thing I would just mention when people ask me about sanctions is the National Audit Office. A while ago now looked at attendance in job centres, and it found in six months there are a million appointments that were missed.
So that's 2 million a year. The number of people we sanction is around 5%. So I don't think we're a sanction happy organisation. But with those kinds of volumes, you do need within the system some way of addressing repeated kind of non-compliance. So the kind of policy direction we're moving in is looking at repeated non-compliance rather than first offences getting getting a sanction.
10:24
10:24
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So in the in some of the jobs and careers service pathfinders, there are people exploring different approaches. And then you've always had as a local manager, the ability to flex, which I think you might have picked up in Horsham, just what what is right at, at this point of the economic cycle? Who are the customers you're seeing at that point? What frankly, what are the kind of behaviours? Because, you know, it gets round in in the locality, what you can do and what you do not have to do as well.
So you will see local adaptations made to.
So you will see local adaptations made to.
10:25
John Milne
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John Milne
And what kind of metrics would you place on it? In a way, the safeguarding metric is probably the hardest one. Whereas because there are other things, obviously there is a purpose to this, which is to get people into work, etc., etc.. So so what metrics are you tracking and is there, is there any way in which you can get a safeguarding metric in there?
10:25
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
The most, the most important thing we, we've done, I think is on is on cases. We've effectively have a second pair of eyes on the case so that it's not just the work coach looking at it before it's sent off for a sanction decision, a more senior manager will look at the case. And that is an attempt to pick up the vulnerability, might be have been missed or should have been taken into account. Now that won't stop at the point of interaction between the work coach and the customer.
The, you know, the work coach may say, well, I might need to sanction you here, and that might trigger anxiety in some individuals as well. So it's a backstop. It's not the answer to the problem. What we've got to get is the work coach is totally aware of vulnerabilities and that they shouldn't be even threatening sanctions in those sorts of situations.
The, you know, the work coach may say, well, I might need to sanction you here, and that might trigger anxiety in some individuals as well. So it's a backstop. It's not the answer to the problem. What we've got to get is the work coach is totally aware of vulnerabilities and that they shouldn't be even threatening sanctions in those sorts of situations.
10:26
John Milne
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John Milne
Would you be looking that alongside other metrics, such as literally, is it making a difference on people into work? By the way, I'm in favour of of a softer sanctions regime, and I personally believe it could be more effective at the actual job. So is that you've got you've got to weigh up all the factors. That
10:27
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
is I mean, government. I mean, the minister should probably speak for government policy. But, you know, the the approach, the Jobs and Careers service is definitely thinking about what is appropriate to getting people into work. It's less about if you ever read off office for Hope, the history of the employment service, you'll see there is across time, been a swing between stronger sanctions and a more kind of counselling approach.
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Well, let's see what comes out of the work that's being done in in the Pathfinders. I wouldn't want to commit to a lesser rate than the current rate. And on the whole, I don't get very many complaints about the way the sanctions regime is operating at the moment. But as Neil said, we are very focused on supporting people into work, including people who've been out of work for a long time on health grounds. And, you know, this is one of
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And I, and I think that's that's unfortunate. I mean, you you can infer in that in that report, I think the sanctions rate was about. 4% in those days. So we were sanctioning 4% of those million in six months, or 4% of two of 2 million. So to me, that doesn't suggest we're a sanctions happy organisation that we're accepting good cause we understood that people's . Lives
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Benefit to Universal Credit. There are still a small number of people who are in receipt of ESA. And ask Neil to explain a little bit more about the process. What I would say is this this has been a big exercise, obviously, and for a number of people, quite a difficult exercise. Moving from ESA to Universal Credit, I think the department has gone about this in a very good way. It's ensured that the support that people have needed has been in place.
A great deal of work has been done. I've had very frequent. At one stage, I was getting weekly reports about how it was going and the extent to which people had managed to move on to UC and so on. I think it has been done well, but it's certainly been a difficult . Exercise and
A great deal of work has been done. I've had very frequent. At one stage, I was getting weekly reports about how it was going and the extent to which people had managed to move on to UC and so on. I think it has been done well, but it's certainly been a difficult . Exercise and
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
difficult for quite a few of those involved. But Neil, perhaps you can say a bit more about that. Yeah. So there's as of last week, last time I looked, there were. 420 people still to move across on employment support allowance. That's down from the. 880,000 we started with a little over a year ago. So I think that gets you a, an idea of the the kind of public service delivery that's been involved in doing all of that.
Of that.
Of that.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There's about. 160 who have an active migration notice that's there within the three month. period in which they need to make a claim for Universal Credit. They are cases typically where we have judged, and I think this is a good example of our safeguarding approach working. We've judged that they need an appointee or thought that they might need an appointee. And very often there isn't an. appointee like a friend or family to do it for them.
So we've had to wait for the local authority. We've gone to the local authorities and asked them to become corporate. appointees on these customers behalf. It's about 260. Then on top of that. 160 who are waiting on the. councils to put in place a corporate appointee. process for them, and we have not issued a migration notice for them because it would clearly be pointless for them.
They're waiting on the council to give them three months. So it's. proceeding well. These cases are quite tricky at the end, as you'd.
So we've had to wait for the local authority. We've gone to the local authorities and asked them to become corporate. appointees on these customers behalf. It's about 260. Then on top of that. 160 who are waiting on the. councils to put in place a corporate appointee. process for them, and we have not issued a migration notice for them because it would clearly be pointless for them.
They're waiting on the council to give them three months. So it's. proceeding well. These cases are quite tricky at the end, as you'd.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
That we were going to be led by the customers we were serving here. And some I mean, let's let's be honest, some people were quite anxious about the move to UC. They've been scared over the years by what they'd heard about it. I think that wasn't fair to scare them like that, but it happened. We had to deal with that. And there are a bunch of people who just don't want to come to UC, so they hold out till the last moment.
So one customer took us to court, lost in the court. We spent eight months trying to persuade her. Then in June we did stop a benefit she claimed the next day. So she clearly did not want to move to UC. But she has made the move and she's now successfully on Universal Credit. So, you know, it's a big.
So one customer took us to court, lost in the court. We spent eight months trying to persuade her. Then in June we did stop a benefit she claimed the next day. So she clearly did not want to move to UC. But she has made the move and she's now successfully on Universal Credit. So, you know, it's a big.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
organisations of disabled people are predominantly been worried about the ESA cases. And I think it's gone remarkably well and a lot better than the number of hearings I had in the past at predecessor. committees who were. predicting absolute mayhem. And that hasn't happened. There's not I'm not to say there hasn't been mistakes on cases because there always will be. But, you know, people have made the move across to Universal Credit or where they haven't.
And that's had a bit of coverage. There's good reasons for that. They may be have.
And that's had a bit of coverage. There's good reasons for that. They may be have.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
may have savings over their limit, which they probably should have told us about before, but we haven't pursued that terribly hard with them. They have left the country and just not told us. And we've had some cases where our our axles have actually followed cases not actually physically abroad, but they've checked really hard that the person has moved abroad and isn't, you know, not just not answering us and so forth. So there's good reasons for the few .
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Thousand people who haven't made it across to UC. Just to add to that, the Neil made the point that we started with. 880,000 people on ESA who were sent. migration notices. 856,000 of them have made a claim to Universal Credit. So that's 97%. There are. 23,000 who haven't claimed. And it looks as though in most of those.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Probably there are people who actually technically weren't eligible for ESA, but they were receiving it anyway. They haven't made a claim for Universal Credit. One of the features of this process, which have been quite interested with for quite a number of people, it's required somebody from the department to visit them at home in order to make the universal credit claim for for all sorts of reasons. And the home . Visiting
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
service has, I think, done a very good job during this exercise. I just interject for a second, Liz, if that's okay. This was one of the issues that was. raised when Nora came to to see us. Absolutely . Accept that there are there's always going to be issues around human error and, and so on. And you can't get a.
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
They also said that there are issues regarding TP related to council tax and social care, so some claimants were receiving unusual and inconsistent. overpayment amounts, suggesting a potential IT error. So that's for your noting. I would be interested in the numbers where that sort of issue arose. Again, we'll never have. 100% error. It's been raised through the Welfare Rights officers group.
So at the national level, they felt compelled that it's significant enough to write to us, and then that they confirmed that when they came to see us. So if you could. indicate if you could let us know that the number of concerns that you have had in the context, as you say, of the really high numbers . That you've
So at the national level, they felt compelled that it's significant enough to write to us, and then that they confirmed that when they came to see us. So if you could. indicate if you could let us know that the number of concerns that you have had in the context, as you say, of the really high numbers . That you've
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And I'm sure all the members understand we can we can certainly do that. Can I just make the point, Debbie. That that Neil, I know has met very. frequently with. organisations like that one and others. I've attended 1 or 2 of the calls. I do think the department has done a very, very thorough job listening to . All of
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Planning to provide any ongoing support for those people? So one of the things I mean, it picks up a bit on the Nora evidence, actually. So they were right to say. that the initial part of the enhanced support journey supported people to the point of making the claim. But anybody has any detail on Universal Credit will know this committee will know that you've got to get from the claim then to the first payment and what was happening in some cases , a few cases, but.
important that people were struggling to provide.
important that people were struggling to provide.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Pass the identity checks, for example, failing to do other things that would complete the claim. So they weren't getting paid. So in response to that, we call it's probably not a very elegant name, but we put a speed bump into the system. Basically, it's I told you it wasn't very elegant, but it's management speak. I apologise. But we. basically on the cases on the move to UC.
cases that they've made a claim but hadn't completed it. We didn't just close it like we would do for a normal new claim and just end the claim. We were curious, Mr. Darling's point about why, and then we. investigated that and found out. Well, yes, they decided not to. They. Yeah. Sorry. I've got, you know. £30,000 in savings. I should have mentioned it to you.
I don't want to pursue my claim to. No, I just don't know how to do this. I need help and you know, as as the minister said, you know, I doubled the size of the visiting teams because I knew we would have to ultimately, in some people's cases, go to people's homes and help them out. So, Nora were right to say that, but we did correct that problem. And I think, you know, and and I'll happily look at any letter they've sent you, chair, but I think some of the problems they highlighted were in the past and we.
corrected other things. I just want to reassure the committee we don't have software errors in the calculations. Okay. That that was something that we checked and checked and checked. In fact, I made myself particularly unpopular with one secretary of State for going so slow because I wanted to check all the software really worked. This was years ago now, but so so we don't see we've got errors there. We think what's happening is people are submitting new evidence that causes us to .
cases that they've made a claim but hadn't completed it. We didn't just close it like we would do for a normal new claim and just end the claim. We were curious, Mr. Darling's point about why, and then we. investigated that and found out. Well, yes, they decided not to. They. Yeah. Sorry. I've got, you know. £30,000 in savings. I should have mentioned it to you.
I don't want to pursue my claim to. No, I just don't know how to do this. I need help and you know, as as the minister said, you know, I doubled the size of the visiting teams because I knew we would have to ultimately, in some people's cases, go to people's homes and help them out. So, Nora were right to say that, but we did correct that problem. And I think, you know, and and I'll happily look at any letter they've sent you, chair, but I think some of the problems they highlighted were in the past and we.
corrected other things. I just want to reassure the committee we don't have software errors in the calculations. Okay. That that was something that we checked and checked and checked. In fact, I made myself particularly unpopular with one secretary of State for going so slow because I wanted to check all the software really worked. This was years ago now, but so so we don't see we've got errors there. We think what's happening is people are submitting new evidence that causes us to .
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
This group of people? So if they claim within a month of failing to claim the transitional protection blanket should throw itself across that as well, and allow that and a and a. continuation of the LCC equivalent, the support rate that was in ESA to. transpose into Universal Credit Award. There have been isolated. examples of that. Not that that not happening, which we've obviously corrected and then done the kind of.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
it's in regulation, should the system not have been designed to pick that up? Well, there's there's two things going on. I'd say first thing is if you do claim within a month of the end of your award or your your ESA award, you ought to qualify for transitional protection. That's the way the regulations work. So that has been happening. Okay. So we've been tracking the number of cases who have gone to the end of the migration period and then decided to claim.
afterwards in that first month. If you claim after that, there's no protection in the law. But what I was confessing to is there have been isolated. examples where.
afterwards in that first month. If you claim after that, there's no protection in the law. But what I was confessing to is there have been isolated. examples where.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Yes, because that it's a mistake that was being made. Yeah. Unfortunately, the. data in the old legacy systems didn't allow us to pull it into the new UC system. It just wasn't of the quality we needed. So it. requires a human to check these things. And humans, being humans, occasionally have made . Some
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Damien Egan
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Damien Egan
you chair Neil, another one for you on the that's not fair. Well, we've we've heard concerns that some councils are treating the transitional element in. universal Credit as unearned income, meaning that some claimants are then prevented from the Council Tax Reduction Scheme. Does the Department intend to introduce any. mitigation . Or
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Authority over. I think councils have responded. I've certainly seen some respond and change their. policies on this. It's certainly something I've seen the disability rights. organisations be quite active and vocal about, but it's not something we can fix at our end. We've done the proper calculations. It's a policy choice of . The local
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
the minister for the statement of the government's policy. Well, I've certainly been pleased when I've heard that those changes have been made. But it is a matter for councils. And that's how the the system was set up in 2013. I mean, whether it was a good idea to exclude council tax from Universal Credit in those days, I think is a matter we can . Debate,
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Damien Egan
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Damien Egan
but it is now for councils to decide. Thank you. Okay. Moving on to I've got a couple of questions on the Tims review, and we had the interim report for the summer and the headline finding around Pip and the overwhelming negative. feelings that. respondents had who, who had been through the process with over. 90% expressing negative. views and saying that the system often fails to reliably.
distinguish between different levels and types of need and support that's required. I wanted to ask you wanted to ask what evidence you can point to. When we think from the. safeguarding angle, that. safeguarding will be an.
distinguish between different levels and types of need and support that's required. I wanted to ask you wanted to ask what evidence you can point to. When we think from the. safeguarding angle, that. safeguarding will be an.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
To our call for evidence. And those themes that you've picked out were very, very strongly. represented in the replies that we received. We are now. starting to drop the kind of. recommendations that will be in our final report, which is due in, I think, about November. We're going out. We've got a steering group. I'm one of three co-chairs.
We've got 12 members of the steering group. Of those 12, all but one are disabled people. And between us, we will come up with a set of. recommendations for the future of Pip. And I think the the well-being of people claiming Pip is a going to be a central concern of the group. That's that's doing that work. And that's very fully represented in the .
We've got 12 members of the steering group. Of those 12, all but one are disabled people. And between us, we will come up with a set of. recommendations for the future of Pip. And I think the the well-being of people claiming Pip is a going to be a central concern of the group. That's that's doing that work. And that's very fully represented in the .
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Damien Egan
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Damien Egan
Regular all day meetings that we're having at the moment. We've discussed here before about the. co-production elements. There's a huge number of written responses that have come in. You've also got the follow up. workshops around the country. I imagine you must have had lots of people who wanted to be part of those workshops. Are you able to talk to us about how people were selected to take part, and how you make sure you've got a broad? Broad group there that .
Reflects
Reflects
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And we've issued an open invitation to people who'd like to take part. We've had, I think, something like. 3000 people saying they would like to take part. We'll be choosing around about 300 of those to fill up those workshops that we're running. And, and again, making sure we've got broad. representation will be an important.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
kind of things you're you're weighing up in making that decision? Well, it's it's more really, I think the question of a. precedent that we, you know, we have to be careful that we're not doing something which in a future case might cause significant harm or embarrassment or difficulty. So we're weighing that all up, and I'm hoping we'll . Be able
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
give us some idea of why that, why there's such a huge jump? Well, I think it's part of the, the impact of the, the exercise that we've been. discussing this this morning, raising the. profile and the. importance of these concerns. I've got a figure of. 166 internal process reviews. 71 of those arose from. external review activity. For example, you know, where we where the department was asked to.
participate in an external review, like a. safeguarding adults review. Others were were.
participate in an external review, like a. safeguarding adults review. Others were were.
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John Milne
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John Milne
improve things, which we are we're keen to take advantage of. And as you say, this is kind of a reporting thing that the numbers are going. Sometimes it can be confusing because it can make it look bad. But actually you're saying this is a reporting thing. Do you anticipate that the numbers will continue to increase then over the next few years, for example, as that culture . Of
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
You know, they're not about. finding fault or. causality here. It's about learning. And to understand, is there anything we could have done differently here? This is a dreadful case has happened. We you know, is there something should we have, you know, made a safeguarding referral to one of the safeguarding adult boards, you know, questions like that. So as we. ingrain the cultural change, I think the committee is looking for and, you know, as Mr.
Darling was saying, we're not there yet. A long way to go yet, but I would expect the numbers to rise. And I don't think you should be alarmed if they do. You know, I think if more was coming through the coroner's, that might point to something more systemic. But here it might be a sign of the cultural change.
Darling was saying, we're not there yet. A long way to go yet, but I would expect the numbers to rise. And I don't think you should be alarmed if they do. You know, I think if more was coming through the coroner's, that might point to something more systemic. But here it might be a sign of the cultural change.
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
repeating itself, then that is itself. I think, I think the internal reviews are a very. useful way of understanding what's going on. I'm not sure it's a metric so much. You know, if the number goes up, does that mean we're doing more harm or that we're just identifying? It's not I don't think the significance of the number is that exactly. Or it's not that clear to me, but I do think they are very useful documents.
And the material we're . Going to be
And the material we're . Going to be
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Liz Twist
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Liz Twist
systematically cases of serious harm where the individual affected was in receipt of benefits. I know we touched on this right at the start of the meeting, didn't we? So the government said in its response that a review was underway to strengthen the CMA's role in the process and that. DWP would explore how we. engage with coroners.
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
Progress with that? Please let me ask the CMA to comment. Yeah, sure. So specifically about the the powers to start off with, I and my team undertook a thorough review, and we looked at all of the IPR cases from six months for over a six month period and looked at what involvement did the clinical team had and how would we worked across the. organisation rather than in silos. And because of that review, we've now put in a new process that Clare will be.
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
that we're getting the best out of this learning. And we've now also developed really quite robust learning loops, so that once we're learning from the IPS, we've got lots and lots of. meetings where we're feeding back to our providers and we're sort of feeding back. And all of these also come to our clinical governance board, which is chaired by a non-executive director and has an external member of that board as well. So that we've got scrutiny and we're taking them to our serious case panel.
So in terms of the. robustness of the. IPR process, I'm I'm really confident. And I think, Clare, you'd probably agree that we've really put in some some good measures now, I think to improve that process and to improve the learning. Early days, you know, we have to see how it goes. And I think, of course, it will be strengthened as we go. In terms of the coroners, I will hand over to Clare.
We have, since I came into post in the.
So in terms of the. robustness of the. IPR process, I'm I'm really confident. And I think, Clare, you'd probably agree that we've really put in some some good measures now, I think to improve that process and to improve the learning. Early days, you know, we have to see how it goes. And I think, of course, it will be strengthened as we go. In terms of the coroners, I will hand over to Clare.
We have, since I came into post in the.
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Debbie Abrahams
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Debbie Abrahams
The responses to coroners in that we've strengthened seniority looking at those. So I cosign those off. We've also. included another. I'm very much about. multidisciplinary working. You can probably tell. We've set up another sort of group, if you like, so that we're looking at all of those things that are coming in from coroners. And I think Neil touched on this before, it's not just about your prevention of future death reports. It's whenever there is a query or a question from a coroner that comes in regarding an inquest, some of those are just can you tell us a bit of information? Some of them are.
Can you show us what's happened? Others relate to a prevention of future death report. We give evidence at coroners courts as well. We've now got templates that we're using rather than each individual response to coroners being sort of an ad hoc response. We're actually using and formalising more templates. So
Can you show us what's happened? Others relate to a prevention of future death report. We give evidence at coroners courts as well. We've now got templates that we're using rather than each individual response to coroners being sort of an ad hoc response. We're actually using and formalising more templates. So
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
that's in terms of the process. But I don't know if you want to add anything about the interactions described at all. Gail completely stole my thunder. Sorry. So I would say we we are looking at and we have really enhanced our engagement with coroners. We have enhanced our central. So we're we are making sure that we're actively learning from what coroners are saying in their in their conclusions, as well as when .
They
They
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Speaker 7
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Speaker 7
We have in the past and that but we haven't over the last sort of recent times, I think I should I've taken this on more recently in the last couple of months, but that is certainly something that I want to do, really want to build on what the team has done in terms of our relationship with coroners, but also. understand how we can work more closely together with them, but obviously making sure that we're working within our departmental boundaries and we're not .
Overstepping
Overstepping
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Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Culture of learning that you haven't already shared with us. Well, in response to Liz Stacy's review, and I think Liz did a. superb job, as you know, we've set up a arrangement to check lots and lots of. cases of Carer's allowance overpayment. I think we've been through. 3000 of them so far, and we're on track to get through all of them in the the time that that we'd we've we've set out.
But I think that's one. example of a. broader change of culture that is needed in the Department, which I hope this. exercise that we've been discussing this morning will bring about. There are lots and lots of very hard working people in the.
But I think that's one. example of a. broader change of culture that is needed in the Department, which I hope this. exercise that we've been discussing this morning will bring about. There are lots and lots of very hard working people in the.
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Steve Darling
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Steve Darling
to set about addressing it. Thank you. And I know from my. experience of visiting visiting Torquay Jobcentre, I know that other colleagues from the select committee have visited their own ones, that we reflect back how. compassionate and. caring the vast majority of staff are and committed they are to supporting the most.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
And it wasn't up to standard, and you could see how the guidance had got out of kilter with what the. legislation was. So we've put in place. processes to make sure guidance is. updated for legislative change and but also decisions in the courts and so on and so forth. And then it, you know, it it does come from the top committee has been quite right to say this, but also, as the Minister was pointing out, our staff have a part to play and start with a.
predisposition to helping their fellow citizens. And indeed, this committee heard on. the 4th of March just what Kirsty McHugh, who was one of the chief executives of the carers.
predisposition to helping their fellow citizens. And indeed, this committee heard on. the 4th of March just what Kirsty McHugh, who was one of the chief executives of the carers.
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Had seen, because we invited her to Preston to come and see what she saw there, and she said we found a. Were a group of staff really dedicated to carers who really understood carer's circumstances. A lot of picking up the phone and talking to them. We saw what we saw was a very supportive culture. So it's not all fixed, it's not all done yet. You know, we've got further to to go, but we have committed to .
Putting right
Putting right
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
much. Anything else from anyone? No. Can I thank the committee very much for its interest in this area? I think we are making a big change, and it is to a large extent, because of the work and the focus of this committee on this area. So I want to thank the committee. You, chair, and the members of the committee for . Maintaining
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Liz Twist
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Liz Twist
That we're certainly moving in the right direction. Still a lot to do. And Neil, I'll just pick up on the point that you said about leadership. And that applies not just to ministerial teams. It also applies to officials. I'm sure everybody here agrees. And Gail, I wish you every success in what you do. I also acknowledge all the work, as I said at the beginning, that you have done , and not not an easy position, but I really do recognise that.
And thank you for everything that you've done.
And thank you for everything that you've done.
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