Public Services Committee
Wednesday 14th October 2026
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11:16
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
11:16
11:16
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
good outcome for a child in care? I think it comes it comes back to what we invest in in prevention. We saw local authorities whose preventative services had all, but, you know, frankly, disappeared. And therefore, if children are reaching the care part of the system and coming into care, as Chelsea has said, with much more complex.
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11:17
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
local authority to be spending in, in a given circumstance? So I don't think we've put a number figure on that. The way that we are evaluating the family's first programme is that we want to see a. We expect to see a reduction in the number of children entering care, and that is through additional preventative support. And then we are also. diverting numbers into residential care through much greater focus on kinship and much greater focus on.
fostering and increasing the number of foster care places available for children that do come into the care system are more likely to . Get a
fostering and increasing the number of foster care places available for children that do come into the care system are more likely to . Get a
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11:17
Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
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Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
Baroness Shawcross, thank you so much. And apologies to the committee and to you for arriving late. I wondered if you could just push a little bit on the. preventative measures. And I'm particularly interested, following Lord Johnson's themes about value for money, on whether we know what works. So if you are a local authority and you want to invest in. preventative measures, you mentioned kind of health wraparound and justice wraparound, what as a local authority evidence is there about where is the best place to put your marginal pound and .
What
What
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11:18
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
On specific issues. So the Supporting Families program is one of the main ones which showed for every pound spent you get 2.4 back. And that. described the practice that works with families. So having a key worker that can help you navigate all of the wider public services that you might need. So that is like a key plank of what we're now saying that local authorities need to do in practice, that we've codified in our kind of program guide that we tell them to follow.
There are a number of other. similar kind of what works.
There are a number of other. similar kind of what works.
11:19
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
So yeah, we we're managing it as a kind of government major program. So we say here are all of the things that say that have an evidence base. They're a mix of interventions. So like specific, if this family has a specific issue, try this type of. intervention and general kind of. practices of working with local authorities. That's codified in a program guide. We have.
11:19
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
With every local authority in the country, how they're going, performing against those things where we're worried about local authority performance or practice. We have support mechanisms in place. So experts that can go and help them transform their services. So it's it's a relative. It's a richer area of kind of understanding what works, I would say less so than the care system. So we've got a decent evidence base on.
Yeah. And I just add to that. So of the. 2.4 billion that we've injected into the system over this period, the spending review, we've put it in through the local government funding settlement, and we have ring fenced it. And all those ring fencing is something that fell away in the past. That's something that's been welcomed broadly by directors of children's services, who have struggled in more recent years to hold funding in the prevention end of the system.
And as we've as we've learned over time, when prevention spend falls, statutory spend goes up exponentially. So we're injecting this cash. We are effectively having to dual run slightly in this rebalancing. So you're having to put more money into prevention until you can bend the curve to improve the outcomes that we're looking to see and the reduction in numbers of children going into care, I think where we've built the evidence base as well. So we've worked with foundations.
There are sort of equivalent of what works. organization really is focused on, on different aspects of support for parents. And I think in designing the program, we worked with ten Pathfinder areas, so ten local authorities around the country. And we required co-design not just with the local authority, but we. required health and police to be at the table. And how do you design. services that are fit for for a local community? What are their.
needs and how do you yes, you take on national evidence, but how do you bespoke it to in a way that meets the needs of those particular. families around those set of schools in that particular locality? And how do you support a family to navigate? So, as Shazia alluded to there, we have a family health worker who will coordinate . Everything. The multi-agency response that's required around that family. multi-agency leader will person will stay with that family as needs ebb and flow.
So families haven't got to persistently come back in and tell their story time and time again, become. frustrated or feel stigmatized. You know, we want to remove the stigma so that. prevention really does make a difference. And just one final. So the place where we have the strongest evidence base is on family group decision making. So both in terms of return on. investment for every pound, I think you get.
£3.8 back. But also in terms of it's proven to reduce entry into care. And that's a thing that we therefore legislated for. And we've put quite a lot of prescription around how local authorities do that . Because we're
Yeah. And I just add to that. So of the. 2.4 billion that we've injected into the system over this period, the spending review, we've put it in through the local government funding settlement, and we have ring fenced it. And all those ring fencing is something that fell away in the past. That's something that's been welcomed broadly by directors of children's services, who have struggled in more recent years to hold funding in the prevention end of the system.
And as we've as we've learned over time, when prevention spend falls, statutory spend goes up exponentially. So we're injecting this cash. We are effectively having to dual run slightly in this rebalancing. So you're having to put more money into prevention until you can bend the curve to improve the outcomes that we're looking to see and the reduction in numbers of children going into care, I think where we've built the evidence base as well. So we've worked with foundations.
There are sort of equivalent of what works. organization really is focused on, on different aspects of support for parents. And I think in designing the program, we worked with ten Pathfinder areas, so ten local authorities around the country. And we required co-design not just with the local authority, but we. required health and police to be at the table. And how do you design. services that are fit for for a local community? What are their.
needs and how do you yes, you take on national evidence, but how do you bespoke it to in a way that meets the needs of those particular. families around those set of schools in that particular locality? And how do you support a family to navigate? So, as Shazia alluded to there, we have a family health worker who will coordinate . Everything. The multi-agency response that's required around that family. multi-agency leader will person will stay with that family as needs ebb and flow.
So families haven't got to persistently come back in and tell their story time and time again, become. frustrated or feel stigmatized. You know, we want to remove the stigma so that. prevention really does make a difference. And just one final. So the place where we have the strongest evidence base is on family group decision making. So both in terms of return on. investment for every pound, I think you get.
£3.8 back. But also in terms of it's proven to reduce entry into care. And that's a thing that we therefore legislated for. And we've put quite a lot of prescription around how local authorities do that . Because we're
11:22
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
declare. Thank you very much. Thank you, Baroness Watkins. Thank you very much. I have no interest either. But I'm very. concerned and indeed was shocked at reading that two years after leaving care, nearly a third of care leavers are homeless. So I. understand this focus on. prevention at the beginning of life, but what can we do to. improve that urgently? Because we know once people are homeless, you .
Know,
Know,
11:23
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
all the data shows us what a disaster that is. Yeah. So again, through the Children's Wellbeing and Schools bill that becomes now an act, sorry, we have legislated to ensure that local. authorities are publicising the support that is available for care leavers. But of course, that is not enough. And again, we start slightly in front of a child becoming a care leaver. Like what are all the things that we can do in advance of that? And we published a paper called the Enduring Relationships Document, which is really designed to think about children in care and how do we build those really important relationships with people that will stay with them when they leave the care system and become adults? So that isn't just about being kind of the personal adviser at the local authority, who obviously should help navigate whatever support the individual needs, but how do they keep contact with the auntie, their cousin, the people in their.
community who who will stay with them and provide that safety net effectively around them? So really centering around enduring. relationships in terms of the support for care leavers. So local authorities absolutely publishing that offer. The act also intends to expand corporate parenting.
community who who will stay with them and provide that safety net effectively around them? So really centering around enduring. relationships in terms of the support for care leavers. So local authorities absolutely publishing that offer. The act also intends to expand corporate parenting.
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11:24
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Having corporate. responsibilities and duties to ensure that those in care and care leavers are supported. And that's an expansion of the current arrangements. And we're also going to be rolling out staying close, which we legislated. So staying close is targeted support for those most likely to be at risk of homelessness. So that is providing supported housing. And again, the wraparound care that. stabilises the individual in that housing really supports them to to live.
independently and secures ongoing tenancies. Beyond that, that will be rolling out across every local authority across this spending review period. We're working we've been working with 47 local authorities so far. We've slightly refined our. expectations again, based on what we're learning of what works. So we're going out to another 15 local. authorities at . The
independently and secures ongoing tenancies. Beyond that, that will be rolling out across every local authority across this spending review period. We're working we've been working with 47 local authorities so far. We've slightly refined our. expectations again, based on what we're learning of what works. So we're going out to another 15 local. authorities at . The
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11:25
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
And I'm really hoping that it's proved to be right. But I am aware that there are people of 20 who've been in care who go to A and E's across the. country and report that they have nowhere to live while they're being dealt with for whatever they've gone to any. For will the. statutory duty then be on. hospitals to ensure that they don't go back on the street after that attendance? Because I can hear how you're working with local authorities.
I'm frustrated with the other end, and I am by . Background of
I'm frustrated with the other end, and I am by . Background of
11:25
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
mental health nurse. So yeah, just declare that I think there's probably more to do in the way that the broader system comes around in individual in terms of taking those corporate. responsibilities seriously and acting locally to, to bring about change. I think we see a lot of variation in the way that housing teams within local authorities interact with the care, leaving teams where you think that would be an obvious connect and can, can, can be disparate.
So I think there's more to do there. I think the fact that the Prime Minister has stood up and clearly said, rough sleeping is top of the agenda, and we are working really closely with. Mhclg to improve action in relation to both rough . Sleeping and
So I think there's more to do there. I think the fact that the Prime Minister has stood up and clearly said, rough sleeping is top of the agenda, and we are working really closely with. Mhclg to improve action in relation to both rough . Sleeping and
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Baroness Redfern
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Baroness Redfern
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
I just wondered how that can be improved. Yeah, and I think that's interesting. I think that's a finding that came through in the Care Leavers Deaths review that was titled You Really Are on Your Own. And it really shone a light on the fact that too many care leavers really are on their own. They haven't got the support. People don't understand them. Again, those transitions, particularly on health, if I'm honest, around moving from children's support, where they may have finally got some mental health support.
We had cases where children had diabetes. They died because their support was not transferred over into the adult system. So much more to do to make sure that those transition arrangements are right, but they are right from a multi-agency.
We had cases where children had diabetes. They died because their support was not transferred over into the adult system. So much more to do to make sure that those transition arrangements are right, but they are right from a multi-agency.
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11:27
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Not just relying on a kind of individual within a within a local authority. And I think staying close, we are definitely sort of in the foothills of what we're learning. On staying close. As I say, we've. redefined the model so that it is much more about the actual house that the house, the home itself, and the support that comes with it. When we initially set off on the stay and close journey, I think we were a bit more fluid about what might work for an individual, and we've realised we need to be tighter to get the outcomes and the support that's needed.
And I think the only other thing I would add is that kind of at every step, we're trying to get kind of a further step back. So actually working with children when they're in care, making sure that you're finding the people that can build that network around them, as Helen said, that that sort of ambition is set out in the enduring relationship strategy because it is really, really hard, kind of once you've lost those. opportunities to build people up, to have like a good transition out.
So those things happening together, I think, need to happen together because it's quite difficult to, you know, find a 20 year old relationships. They're, they're less likely to be engaged with their personal adviser, they're less likely to be engaged with the local authority. So you need to . Be
And I think the only other thing I would add is that kind of at every step, we're trying to get kind of a further step back. So actually working with children when they're in care, making sure that you're finding the people that can build that network around them, as Helen said, that that sort of ambition is set out in the enduring relationship strategy because it is really, really hard, kind of once you've lost those. opportunities to build people up, to have like a good transition out.
So those things happening together, I think, need to happen together because it's quite difficult to, you know, find a 20 year old relationships. They're, they're less likely to be engaged with their personal adviser, they're less likely to be engaged with the local authority. So you need to . Be
11:28
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Kind of care journey. Would you think it's about building trust? I think it's about building trust, but I think it's also about preparing them for the fact that the professionals won't be there forever. And I think we've had such a focus on building relationships with social workers, personal advisers. But, you know, at some point those people disappear. I think the shift in focus that Minister McAllister has driven is like, find the people who are in their wider network, the people who they grew up with, the people who are safe in and around, who will support them through that so that as professionals step away, they have a .
Wider kind
Wider kind
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11:29
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Family to be part of. Thank you, thank you. I just on that as well. We start like on the reform journey. That is almost like a question. Number one, we think when local authorities are engaging with the family and that family helps it, the very sort of early signals of things are starting to go wrong. One of the very early questions is who's your support network as a family? How do your neighbours help? Have you got an auntie around the corner? Because if you sort of route in right from the.
beginning that you need a network around the whole family, if things then do go wrong, that network is already been contacted. They're already aware and it . Isn't a
beginning that you need a network around the whole family, if things then do go wrong, that network is already been contacted. They're already aware and it . Isn't a
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
going into care. Thank you, Lord Muhammad. Chair. I also don't have any interest to declare. Can I talk about another area of. outcomes or the lack of. Is NEETs? What's what sort of. interventions do you think we need to do? Because clearly that cohort of young people, when they leave us as corporate parents, they have they're more likely to be Neet than your average young person.
So what sort of things can we look at . Pushing
So what sort of things can we look at . Pushing
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
to ensure that they get the best start in adult life? Yeah, well, for these children, they've often, more often than not been through something fairly traumatic. So ensuring that they get the right support at the right time. I think, as we've said, stability is is. critical and we see too many cases of children being, you know, moved placements, sometimes moved around the country, sometimes moved to the other end of the country.
So therefore, it's difficult for will be unsettling for any of us to, to be doing that on a regular basis. But breaking schooling.
So therefore, it's difficult for will be unsettling for any of us to, to be doing that on a regular basis. But breaking schooling.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Not supporting children to kind of have great attendance and therefore get a better education, which gives them the best shot at going on to further education, higher education or into employment. And we've got the virtual school head network. So every local authority in the country now has to have what's called a virtual school head. I think it's a bit of an odd name, but their job is to support all children in the. locality who are looked after.
So they might be at a range of schools, but making sure you know what is going on with their attendance, is there anything that they need? So again, being that sort of parental advocate to to step in and see whether there are additional needs in place, the the children in care have a higher. propensity to have special educational needs. So again, I think there's something in tandem with the reforms that are going on around special educational needs to ensure that this group of.
children who haven't always got the parental advocacy to sort of push for the right support early enough, are seen, and that that support is put in place more quickly. So, sorry, coming back to your question, I think it's about supporting those children to thrive by creating as much stability as you can in the circumstances that exist wherever possible, it should be in a family environment. So, you know, obviously we are absolutely aiming for a massive expansion in fostering so that children don't have to go into residential homes.
They can be supported in a family environment that that those arrangements are close to home. So they can keep those enduring relationships, they can keep their schooling. And then as they come into the care leaver system, ensuring that we've got really great arrangements with. DWP .
So they might be at a range of schools, but making sure you know what is going on with their attendance, is there anything that they need? So again, being that sort of parental advocate to to step in and see whether there are additional needs in place, the the children in care have a higher. propensity to have special educational needs. So again, I think there's something in tandem with the reforms that are going on around special educational needs to ensure that this group of.
children who haven't always got the parental advocacy to sort of push for the right support early enough, are seen, and that that support is put in place more quickly. So, sorry, coming back to your question, I think it's about supporting those children to thrive by creating as much stability as you can in the circumstances that exist wherever possible, it should be in a family environment. So, you know, obviously we are absolutely aiming for a massive expansion in fostering so that children don't have to go into residential homes.
They can be supported in a family environment that that those arrangements are close to home. So they can keep those enduring relationships, they can keep their schooling. And then as they come into the care leaver system, ensuring that we've got really great arrangements with. DWP .
11:32
Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
And the support is available to to look for work. I just press on the support because one of the there's a number of. initiatives like, you know, the job guarantee, but the issue is you've got to be unemployed for 18 months. That's quite a long time for a young person like that. Yeah. Do you think there's an argument to maybe look at some of that, some of those national programmes and.
specific stuff, like why can't we guarantee that on day one for people leaving care, knowing that they are going to be the ones that are likely to have . All these other
specific stuff, like why can't we guarantee that on day one for people leaving care, knowing that they are going to be the ones that are likely to have . All these other
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
complex issues, why wait 18 months would be my argument. Yeah. And I think for some programmes at DWP run, there are arrangements where children can care, leavers can access earlier. I think what's. interesting and I know that you're from Sheffield, South Yorkshire Combined Authority are actually running a programme with DWP at the moment, which is really focusing in on NEETs, and they have a specific piece of their work which is about care leavers.
So I think it will be interesting to see what we can learn from that and whether we can sort of spread, spread that learning. The Alan Milburn Review is obviously underway at the moment, and he has made reference in the interim report already that that we need to focus more on care leavers. I think the point that we've added in to that is, yes, we need to think about care leavers, but again, we need to come back to children in care.
So if you are going to push things like careers advice, work.
So I think it will be interesting to see what we can learn from that and whether we can sort of spread, spread that learning. The Alan Milburn Review is obviously underway at the moment, and he has made reference in the interim report already that that we need to focus more on care leavers. I think the point that we've added in to that is, yes, we need to think about care leavers, but again, we need to come back to children in care.
So if you are going to push things like careers advice, work.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Whatever it might be, then how do we make sure that children in care at the top of the pile for that sort of support to further reduce their risk of becoming Neet? Yeah, and just a couple of things to add. So I think we talked earlier about staying closed. So like stable. housing is almost like a precursor to be able to get a job, stay in a job. So these, these things are complementary.
And we're definitely hoping that if someone has somewhere to live and they're not worried about being kicked out of their tenancy and they're being supported to maintain that.
And we're definitely hoping that if someone has somewhere to live and they're not worried about being kicked out of their tenancy and they're being supported to maintain that.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
They will be able to secure a job, keep a job, etc.. And then we have examples of both through our Care Leavers Covenant, where other employers can pledge, you know, work experience, internships, etc., and public sector internships. So we've had civil service internship scheme, which recently reached. a thousand care leavers that had been through that scheme. So there's a. combination of things. But your point more about the.
mainstream is,
mainstream is,
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
at. Thank you, Miss Nicholls. Yeah, I do have a slight interest as I've. In the role that I have other than this one, I do. represent people working the social care sector and have done for about 40 years. So. But for me, I think I was a little bit anxious, if you like, about the value for money element of it, because for me, it's about what how we can change young people's lives and often some really bad starts.
And obviously society has changed over the years and the needs of these young people are much more complex. And I think that's where we have to get to the bottom of that. And the value for money for me in that is, is changing their lives in making them not into going to shops and.
And obviously society has changed over the years and the needs of these young people are much more complex. And I think that's where we have to get to the bottom of that. And the value for money for me in that is, is changing their lives in making them not into going to shops and.
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
At one time, all care leavers were. guaranteed an apprenticeship with the local authority and I think that's sort of the start. It went a little bit haywire when the Future Jobs Fund was scrapped, if you like, and we've got the apprentices levy, but I don't think we use that as much. So I don't know whether there's something that you can maybe tie into with that. Again, my authority have got that we were the forerunners for the no wrong door area where it doesn't matter what complex needs you've got.
There's someone there in these. multi-agency teams now that can deal with everything for a family, rather than have. 4 or 5 social workers or care. coordinators going in to do that for them. And I think, you know, the other bit around the value for money, if if we support people and give them a good start in life, the health service, they don't need as much support in there and all of that.
I think some of the issues for me have been about budget constraints over the years for local. authorities and the move away, if you like, from sort of the looked after bit and then on onto the foster carers. But I just do worry that because there's more complex needs, people can't cope if you like, in their own home. So those are all the things for me that we need to be. sorting and being part of to make that better.
Because if their lives are better, then the lives of everybody around . Them
There's someone there in these. multi-agency teams now that can deal with everything for a family, rather than have. 4 or 5 social workers or care. coordinators going in to do that for them. And I think, you know, the other bit around the value for money, if if we support people and give them a good start in life, the health service, they don't need as much support in there and all of that.
I think some of the issues for me have been about budget constraints over the years for local. authorities and the move away, if you like, from sort of the looked after bit and then on onto the foster carers. But I just do worry that because there's more complex needs, people can't cope if you like, in their own home. So those are all the things for me that we need to be. sorting and being part of to make that better.
Because if their lives are better, then the lives of everybody around . Them
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
will will be better as well. And for the families. Yeah. So I think there's, you know, right support the right time with the, with from the right. professional and then working together and families not being left to navigate. We're doing a piece of work also to think about the purpose of residential care. So the vast majority of children who come into the care system, we believe, should be in a family setting.
That is why today we have launched our fostering first ever fostering national campaign. We are aiming to get 10,000 more foster places by 2029. That's pretty ambitious, but we feel that that is where children are better supported within the family environment, and obviously that comes with the need for us to think about the support for those foster carers, as you say, in terms of. changing cohort of children that come in with differing needs. So how do we support those foster carers? So that is kind of one huge plank of our work in that space.
And the other is to really think about. So if we some children will still need residential care. So what is the purpose of that residential care? What are the. specific children that require that level of support? And in providing that and accepting that there is always going to be a cost to that. How do we make sure that we get the best value for money by providing the right wraparound support, and that will often require complete integration with health services.
We again have announced we've got lots of announcements at the moment, and we've just announced the Home Again.
That is why today we have launched our fostering first ever fostering national campaign. We are aiming to get 10,000 more foster places by 2029. That's pretty ambitious, but we feel that that is where children are better supported within the family environment, and obviously that comes with the need for us to think about the support for those foster carers, as you say, in terms of. changing cohort of children that come in with differing needs. So how do we support those foster carers? So that is kind of one huge plank of our work in that space.
And the other is to really think about. So if we some children will still need residential care. So what is the purpose of that residential care? What are the. specific children that require that level of support? And in providing that and accepting that there is always going to be a cost to that. How do we make sure that we get the best value for money by providing the right wraparound support, and that will often require complete integration with health services.
We again have announced we've got lots of announcements at the moment, and we've just announced the Home Again.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Which is a combination between our new regional care cooperatives working with. Icbs for. specifically targeting those children that are on the edge of a deprivation of liberty order due to, you know, due to their welfare needs or indeed have already got a deprivation of liberty order against. And those are the children that are most high cost, that are most at risk, that often are not in appropriate. accommodation or not getting support, neither of their families. So how do you support the child but importantly, support the family as well in order to navigate that child out of residential and ideally back to a family environment, be their .
Own,
Own,
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11:40
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
And I wondered if you had an idea about the the range of of needs that children are. displaying now and, and whether so I should say I have no interest to declare, but I, I was a child. psychiatrist and had a. specialism in learning disability and autism for many years before I retired. But, but I'm just interested also in the sort of. therapeutic support that those. children and the range of different therapeutic support that children with complex needs might need, and whether the system is sufficiently joined up to enable that to happen, but also the.
continuing needs at 18, because for a lot of these children, they're not going to be able to live independent lives. You spoke about.
continuing needs at 18, because for a lot of these children, they're not going to be able to live independent lives. You spoke about.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Often medically. related around the child. and anticipation that that will be, you know, it could be medium term, long term support and. intervention that stays with the child whenever they're in the residential, but also kind of backs out of the system once they go, go back, back to families as well. I don't know if we want to say a bit more about that. Yeah. So I think there is a sort of said this at the.
beginning that what we saw over the last 10 to 15 years because of the reduction in prevention activity, is children presenting later. So the the harm has kind of been sort of happening over a long period of time. We haven't got in early enough when they're 5 or 6 or, you know, even younger. And so by the time that they do. eventually present, those needs are both in the family and for the child are quite entrenched.
So it is a much harder, therefore more expensive type of placement to be able to do the right kind of work with the child and family. I think there is. something well, in particular, I think both shoring up the family. environment so that the child can.
beginning that what we saw over the last 10 to 15 years because of the reduction in prevention activity, is children presenting later. So the the harm has kind of been sort of happening over a long period of time. We haven't got in early enough when they're 5 or 6 or, you know, even younger. And so by the time that they do. eventually present, those needs are both in the family and for the child are quite entrenched.
So it is a much harder, therefore more expensive type of placement to be able to do the right kind of work with the child and family. I think there is. something well, in particular, I think both shoring up the family. environment so that the child can.
11:42
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11:43
11:43
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
But grooming gangs, county lines, etc.. So the sorts of things that we are dealing with, we haven't really had to deal with before. So when Helen talks about us having to redefine the purpose of. residential care, we've had a system that was kind of designed to deal with, you know, children who struggle to stay in foster care. The next step was residential care. Things like the home again pilot are really starting to try and do exactly what you're asking, which is like, what what are the needs? How many of those are mental health needs? How many of those are send.
11:43
11:43
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
What is it about the environment? And so when we have really, really. expensive placements, the ones that are costing half. £1 million a year is because what we don't yet know what the right treatment is. So what we're doing is, you know, high staff ratios to contain children because we haven't quite worked out what the prescription is, but that's what the pilots are designed to do. Yeah, that's what the pilot that we've got the pilots doing that we've got the review underway on the purpose of.
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11:44
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
You know, which cohorts of children will best are best supported in that environment and with, with, with what training and support should the workforce have that work in residential? I think, you know, it is a workforce that's not been reviewed for so many years. So there's a real opportunity, a moment in time for us to really understand what we want from our residential system .
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11:44
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
We'll move on. Baroness Pidgeon, thank you. I don't have any interest to declare. It's very interesting hearing you talk about sort of the work in. prevention and what you're doing in that space. You've started touching on the issue of. residential care. Now clearly care. That sort of care is a right, the right. intervention in some circumstances.
And it is, you know, important to recognise that it's not always safe for some. children and young people to be at their home. So and it's interesting you've talked about the complexity in older children, and I think that's something we will want to explore further. But I wonder whether you can expand for me on what assessment you've made, really of the residential care market. And then you've touched on you've mentioned regional care.
And it is, you know, important to recognise that it's not always safe for some. children and young people to be at their home. So and it's interesting you've talked about the complexity in older children, and I think that's something we will want to explore further. But I wonder whether you can expand for me on what assessment you've made, really of the residential care market. And then you've touched on you've mentioned regional care.
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11:46
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
The system has moved much more to. So we're about 83% private sector, public sector, not for profit, a significant geographical variation in relation to supply and demand. So quarter of our provision is in the North West, not quarter of the children that need that provision are in the North west. We don't have enough provision in London. We don't have enough provision in the southwest. So that is where we end up in a situation where local authorities are either scrabbling around for what is the nearest provision, is it good enough? Does it meet the needs, potentially on a Friday afternoon, when they are trying to find an urgent placement for a child with complex needs, whether placements are placements broken down or something.
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11:46
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
You know the child is a significant risk at that point in time. So crisis decisions are being made where ideally you wouldn't make them in those circumstances. And going back to the outcomes point, in no world really is it is it good if a child is living in London and then gets sent off to to the north west, and that's nothing against the north west, but you want children to stay in and around their their communities to be supported.
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11:47
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
And sort of stability is really important. So we're rolling out something called regional care cooperatives. They are designed to provide some economies of scale around local authorities. They are designed to really improve commissioning arrangements. Often we are finding that local authorities are doing spot.
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11:47
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
They don't have the economies of scale themselves to be able to kind of drive a market that is shifting quite significantly at the moment, we are seeing new private providers coming in all of the time. Again, some of those will be brilliant, some of them won't. And their ability to sort of decipher what good looks like, both in terms of cost, value for money, but importantly, quality when it comes to a changing. dynamic of that cohort.
So regional care cooperatives, we've had two pathfinders, so one in Greater Manchester operating across the Greater. Manchester Combined Authority footprint. And then one in the South East. They are being still fairly fledgling, fledgling in terms of what we're learning from those, what we've done. Again, what we're doing a lot at the moment is really now refining what we want those. organisations to achieve. So we've just announced about two weeks ago five more regional care cooperatives across the country.
So we will be covering more than 100 local. authorities with an expectation that Icbs are signed up. They signed up to the application process. We need help much more part of the story and commissioning. arrangements that those boards must be chaired by an equivalent chief executive type role, someone with sort of the.
So regional care cooperatives, we've had two pathfinders, so one in Greater Manchester operating across the Greater. Manchester Combined Authority footprint. And then one in the South East. They are being still fairly fledgling, fledgling in terms of what we're learning from those, what we've done. Again, what we're doing a lot at the moment is really now refining what we want those. organisations to achieve. So we've just announced about two weeks ago five more regional care cooperatives across the country.
So we will be covering more than 100 local. authorities with an expectation that Icbs are signed up. They signed up to the application process. We need help much more part of the story and commissioning. arrangements that those boards must be chaired by an equivalent chief executive type role, someone with sort of the.
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11:49
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
want to see. So that's the headlines of the regional care cooperatives. That is theoretical really at this point, because you have the two Pathfinders you mentioned, but that's very early days, and then you've got this five new. So when is this going to be rolled out across the whole country? And when do you actually expect to see sort of.
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11:49
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
and, and of these placements in residential care? So I would expect that within a year we start well sooner, hopefully. So first and foremost, those the new five are bringing into place their chief executives at the moment and their board. They are doing a thorough review of sufficiency across the the local authorities in which they are operating. So that, again, really. understanding cohort current supply. Demand and and current cost arrangements.
I think once they've done that analysis, that enables them to sort of. prioritise in terms of where they would go and try and achieve a better commissioned. arrangement where we might have particular issues with complex needs, where we need health to, to, to step in and support potentially further our home. Again, programs that I mentioned just now. So we've announced two so far. So one is Merseyside and Cheshire, and the other is in the West Midlands.
I think once they've done that analysis, that enables them to sort of. prioritise in terms of where they would go and try and achieve a better commissioned. arrangement where we might have particular issues with complex needs, where we need health to, to, to step in and support potentially further our home. Again, programs that I mentioned just now. So we've announced two so far. So one is Merseyside and Cheshire, and the other is in the West Midlands.
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Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
And they will work through the RCC arrangement. Okay, okay. But we haven't got evidence yet. And I think there are concerns about the. boundaries of these and how they link with Icbs. They quite frankly, we don't know what ICB boundaries are at the debate yesterday. They seem to be a state of flux as well, what their final boundaries are going to be. But if you want to get icbs involved, how is that going to work?
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
There's, you know, not clear boundaries. Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt it's a challenge. I've talked to my team about there being a kind of kaleidoscope of boundaries across all public services at the moment, which makes it difficult. That's what makes it difficult, frankly. Now for a local. authority that is the same again with the regional care cooperative. In some places we are wherever we can. We are trying to align around strategic mayoral authority footprints, be that one.
footprint or sister footprints, as we've got with kind of Merseyside and Cheshire, so that we can kind of try and keep step with where we are with with wider public sector boundaries. At the moment, we think the . Relationships
footprint or sister footprints, as we've got with kind of Merseyside and Cheshire, so that we can kind of try and keep step with where we are with with wider public sector boundaries. At the moment, we think the . Relationships
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11:51
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
you going to be assessing this? What sort of time scale? So we put a number of measures into the act. Well, a huge number related to children's social care. But in relation to the market, I suppose the biggest one that people are focused on is the profit cap. And we've put that in as a backstop measure so that we were we are able to bring that forward at a point we think is necessary.
We haven't got the information yet to be able to apply a profit cap. So therefore, we are needing to take a number of steps to learn more about how the market is working and ultimately to decide if that is is necessary or not. So in doing that, so regional care co-operatives is one that is gripping sufficiency. And those commercial arrangements both value for money, cost quality. We are rolling out a data platform.
We the moment have no national. picture for cost and quality that enables us to take more informed decisions. So we think stuff is going to be better done regionally. There may be a question about what we learn from that data and whether actually something you might do nationally, if you've got a very, very slim cohort of children, for example, that's sort of to be learnt from and worked through, and that will be rolled out by the middle of 2027.
So we hope to and our path, our regional care cooperatives also will have kind of made good progress, hopefully by then. So I'd like to think by the end of.
We haven't got the information yet to be able to apply a profit cap. So therefore, we are needing to take a number of steps to learn more about how the market is working and ultimately to decide if that is is necessary or not. So in doing that, so regional care co-operatives is one that is gripping sufficiency. And those commercial arrangements both value for money, cost quality. We are rolling out a data platform.
We the moment have no national. picture for cost and quality that enables us to take more informed decisions. So we think stuff is going to be better done regionally. There may be a question about what we learn from that data and whether actually something you might do nationally, if you've got a very, very slim cohort of children, for example, that's sort of to be learnt from and worked through, and that will be rolled out by the middle of 2027.
So we hope to and our path, our regional care cooperatives also will have kind of made good progress, hopefully by then. So I'd like to think by the end of.
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11:53
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
have a much richer picture of the market and the way that it's operating. If I can just quickly say as well that we're investing over half £1 billion worth of capital. So we are doing that both in our secure provision. So we are building two new secure homes in London and the West Midlands because they have no provision for secure. At the moment we are refurbishing other secure and doing some rebuilds as well to make sure that that where children are insecure, that it's right, it's fit for purpose, it provides the support that it needs for when children leave that environment.
And we are also investing in open what we call open children's homes, so normal children's homes. And that investment is targeted at those with complex needs. So we have awarded those local authorities that have, again, sufficiency issues and that are committed to providing additional capacity for complex needs. So there's a bit of market reshaping there in terms of the way that government is stepping . In
And we are also investing in open what we call open children's homes, so normal children's homes. And that investment is targeted at those with complex needs. So we have awarded those local authorities that have, again, sufficiency issues and that are committed to providing additional capacity for complex needs. So there's a bit of market reshaping there in terms of the way that government is stepping . In
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11:54
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So much going on from what you've said in this space. And I think it's you know, it's really. exciting to hear what I would like and probably in writing to us is some of these are going to take a few years to be able to assess them. But how are you going to measure success? What are the different metrics that you are using to measure the performance of each of these interventions? And I think if you were able .
To write
To write
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11:55
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Even if they don't match with Icbs, not the other way round. Yeah. So this is it's a decision to still to be taken by ministers. But the way that we've designed the current ones is to try where we can and where we know mayoral authority exists to try and align with that footprint, which in most cases, but not all cases have a match up to Icbs. I mean, it's it's quite live, isn't it, in terms of movement of boundaries.
But that that is what we would want to do is align where . We
But that that is what we would want to do is align where . We
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11:55
Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
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Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
And functions from local authorities? So where RCS exist, are you thinking that there is actually like a set of activities that will no longer be done at local authority level, but will be done at a regional level? And if so, could you set out precisely what they are , and if not, if it is more about the RCC providing additional. capacity to support the local authority in their functions, again, could you just clarify exactly what that capacity is going to be? And I'm very interested in Baroness Pidgeon's question of.
How are we going to . Monitor
How are we going to . Monitor
11:56
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
whether this additional capacity actually supports outcomes? Yeah. So at the moment the statutory responsibility will remain with the local authority. And that is our expectation. Again, lively conversations at the moment about devolution and how things will operate. But at the moment we expect that that will continue, that local authorities will continue to have the. responsibility to place the child and place the child in a relevant.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
of funding being pulled. Is that like we are going to make this happen in the bill? In legislation, we have set out that we can require local authorities to be part of a regional care cooperative. So there is an arrangement there where we can make that. expectation clear. Obviously, the big case, I think, for local authorities is like, the care market is not working as it as it stands at the.
moment by having. specialist support, including specialist commercial support, in place, then hopefully you will have a better menu of support in front of you for the children that present to you on a Friday afternoon or whenever it is, to be able to place . Them
moment by having. specialist support, including specialist commercial support, in place, then hopefully you will have a better menu of support in front of you for the children that present to you on a Friday afternoon or whenever it is, to be able to place . Them
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
worked through how much money also to be determined and worked through. Yeah. So as part of the sort of set up arrangements for RCC, what they are doing at the moment is, is, is determining what their local sufficiency arrangements are. So how much are they spending in, in if they've got ten local authorities in their patch, how much they're currently spending on.
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11:58
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
type of places, what type of. providers is, is the fit across the local area? If they've got the right support in the right place, what does that tell you about the kind of gap analysis and therefore what needs to be purchased in the future? Or which supplier would you not want to use in the future because the quality . Isn't good
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11:59
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
But one thing that has worked well in the health service over the last decade is specialist purchasing for really rare. conditions . , so that you don't have 12 different. commissioners trying to argue the toss. And because you need really expensive. equipment in some of those centres, everybody's accepted it, right? Because you can't have 20 of something for, you know, relatively small population. I just can't.
understand why for those with really.
understand why for those with really.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Could you just comment on that? I think that's something we would we would be happy to explore. And I think as we learn more from regional care cooperatives, as they understand what those gaps are, you know, no secret that working with MH, LG that we have that we have looked and will be looking again at those sort of half.
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12:01
Baroness Hollins
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Baroness Hollins
To help children and adults have more ordinary lives. Rather than making this financial investment in residential care, which is often going to be a long way away. And I mean, when we know that that people do better in small groups which have provide. permanent settings for them, I don't understand why the investment isn't in small local supports.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Why at this stage of a young person's life? Yeah, I don't think we disagree with that at all. I think that is why we're doing this piece of work on what is the purpose of. residential like, which children could it support? And that might be for a very short period of time while needs are stabilized, while the right support is put around them. But but for the vast, vast, vast.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
System in a timely way? Yeah, so obviously use of unregistered is illegal, but we know it's a practice that still happens. We are in combination with Ofsted looking really closely at this at the moment. Again, through the act that we've introduced powers for Ofsted to be able to find providers that are. operating in this way, and we've. undertaken a deep dive with 15 local authorities around the country to really get under the skin of why are you using this provision? Talk us through the cases in your area to tell us what's happened.
Very often. Again, it's that spot purchasing arrangement on a Friday afternoon where there's a crisis and there is no provision available.
Very often. Again, it's that spot purchasing arrangement on a Friday afternoon where there's a crisis and there is no provision available.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Is used. It might be for 24, 72 hours. Again, not not acceptable, but but that's what happens. A need is presented and a need needs to be met. It might be for slightly longer where particular. organisation is seen to be able to support a child very specifically with with their needs, but they are not registered with Ofsted or indeed they are in the kind of queue to be registered. I think that is one of the other issues that we've got is that Q is ever growing at the moment, with more people trying to enter enter the market.
So we've done some work with Ofsted to sift. Better sift the queue so that we are bringing to the front of the queue provision that is being paid for by the department, by government capital investment, making sure that is brought on stream as quickly as it is kind of built and ready and able to be, but also in terms of. geographical location. So again, where we've got sufficiency problems, making sure that those areas are able to.
register relevant provision as quickly as possible. There's more to do to look at. Sort of.
So we've done some work with Ofsted to sift. Better sift the queue so that we are bringing to the front of the queue provision that is being paid for by the department, by government capital investment, making sure that is brought on stream as quickly as it is kind of built and ready and able to be, but also in terms of. geographical location. So again, where we've got sufficiency problems, making sure that those areas are able to.
register relevant provision as quickly as possible. There's more to do to look at. Sort of.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
If you like, of registered managers. So if a registered manager moves to a different home because the organisation is set up and it might be something that's outstanding that that provision can't be registered until it's kind of sat in the queue and gone through the system. So it's an area we're taking really, really seriously. And we will have our first ever set of DfE data on unregistered published in November. That gives us a proper baseline of placements in unregistered system that we can work from.
At the moment , Ofsted do kind of an annual review, but it's a bit of a kind of snapshot in time. We hope that this kind of, first of evidence will give us more insight and allow us to kind of target our support . Through our
At the moment , Ofsted do kind of an annual review, but it's a bit of a kind of snapshot in time. We hope that this kind of, first of evidence will give us more insight and allow us to kind of target our support . Through our
12:05
Lord Bradley
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Lord Bradley
regions group that operates within the department. Slightly worried that you the current system is that you are sifting through to put. Who's at the top of the queue and who's at the bottom of the queue when . The intention, I hope, is to not have that queue because they should be not used as unregistered. So do you have a time frame in which you . Want to
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
completely negate the use of unregistered homes? We haven't set a deadline on that. As I say, we're working really closely with Ofsted, who also look at this within their inspection arrangements to again. understand whilst it is illegal that these homes are used, what are the circumstances in which the provision was used and was there an alternative available at that particular moment in time for that particular child? As I say, the data will tell us if we're starting to have an.
impact on on the use of that provision. And again, regional care.
impact on on the use of that provision. And again, regional care.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
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12:07
Lord Johnson of Marylebone
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Lord Johnson of Marylebone
or. £546,000 annually. Apparently, there were 36 children in. placements that each had a cost of more than. £1 million a year. Does the department have the. data to establish whether these extraordinary. costs might be. justified in any way by the. complexity of the care needs of the children in question , and in related to that, what objective criteria would you use to set a profit cap so that you didn't.
inadvertently penalise providers providing high .
inadvertently penalise providers providing high .
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Quality care to children with very complex needs? Yeah. So we haven't got the richness of data on those high cost placements. So we've worked with Mhclg, we've run some surveys in the past with them and and the local government Association to try and find out more about those placements. Again, I know we sound like we're going to be relying a lot on the regional care cooperatives. We are expecting a lot from them in relation to their assessment of sufficiency.
Should also include a review of. individual costs of.
Should also include a review of. individual costs of.
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12:08
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
again will provide an. opportunity to see of the highest cost placements in a locality. What, what what are the services that it's providing? What are the needs of those children? You know, can you get to a position where you might have a price banding arrangement where it's legitimate, that very high cost placements will exist for the very highest needs of, of certain cohorts of children. That in itself will also inform more about cost breakdowns and how providers are behaving.
We have also. introduced a financial oversight scheme within the. department that is doing a deep dive on the. cost analysis of the top 40. providers of children's social care. We've just stood that up. So again, another form of data that will be coming to us during the course of the year. So that combined with the data collection that we will be doing nationally on.
We have also. introduced a financial oversight scheme within the. department that is doing a deep dive on the. cost analysis of the top 40. providers of children's social care. We've just stood that up. So again, another form of data that will be coming to us during the course of the year. So that combined with the data collection that we will be doing nationally on.
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12:09
Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
The Intel that we will receive from regional care cooperatives starts to give us a richer picture on costs. And I think it's very, very challenging of the. department to to work out what the right level of profit is in this space. Not least we have a proportion of our private sector. So we have. 83% private sector led providers. I think I need to check the number, but it's about 20% of that number that are private equity.
There is a risk that as soon as we start chasing profit, we start chasing our tails around people's. accountants and how many can be moved around. So we need to go in with our eyes open in terms of building that data picture. first and the richness of costs, the costs for particular cohorts of. children . Before
There is a risk that as soon as we start chasing profit, we start chasing our tails around people's. accountants and how many can be moved around. So we need to go in with our eyes open in terms of building that data picture. first and the richness of costs, the costs for particular cohorts of. children . Before
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Whether a price banding system or a profit cap arrangement is, is, is, is the right thing to do. We're conscious of the fragility of the market as well. So in moving to that too quickly, there is a risk that those providers disappear. We also can't afford for that to happen either because we've got . Children
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
cost could be justified. Yes, yes, potentially. I would need to look at it and see what's happened. But we're very high cost health needs where you have round the clock support from potentially multiple carers, you can imagine that that becomes more costly. Yeah. Or. You know, high staff. ratios with . Rotating
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12:11
Lord Barber of Chittlehampton
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Lord Barber of Chittlehampton
safety of others. Yeah. Thank you. This is an important area of the discussion. I very much appreciate that the quality of the debate so far. Chair, following your question, on the face of it, if you just step back from the detail that we're discussing, we are saying that there's a whole range of provision that is costing a lot of money that is. illegal and routinely used, and you begin to wonder whether the English language has meaning.
The word illegal when you when we've got that. So it's not an. acceptable solution. I, I, I appreciate JF colleagues are talking about solving it, but to me, based on something I've worked on for a long time in, in Punjab, Pakistan, I just want to say that the. moment a.
The word illegal when you when we've got that. So it's not an. acceptable solution. I, I, I appreciate JF colleagues are talking about solving it, but to me, based on something I've worked on for a long time in, in Punjab, Pakistan, I just want to say that the. moment a.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
We will now get an answer. Yeah. So as I say, very often these providers are waiting to be assessed by Ofsted, which then brings them into the regime. I appreciate that that potentially should be the other way round. Directors of children's services who make these decisions. locally are assuring themselves as to whether that is an appropriate arrangement, given the. circumstances that are in front of them at that particular moment in time.
So, you know, they will be looking at the staff that are in place that that the kind of locality of the of the house or the home is, is suitable or not, albeit a decision that . They, you
So, you know, they will be looking at the staff that are in place that that the kind of locality of the of the house or the home is, is suitable or not, albeit a decision that . They, you
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
Lord Nicholls, Baroness. Thank you Lord. I'll see you in the office later. Just on on the points that we're raising about the costs. And obviously , if we have to wait until the new, you know, bodies are set up, I think we could probably most of us find an example. currently or in the past, where a local authority has spent that kind of money on a child. And I wonder whether you could look at some of that in the.
interim rather than wait while these new bodies are set up. Certainly aware of one in my area where there was a threat to the health board to court because they wouldn't cough up half of the costs and they needed to. And I was talking of. 2.4 million there. So maybe you could look at some of those in the interim and find out. I, I don't know whether I would ever.
interim rather than wait while these new bodies are set up. Certainly aware of one in my area where there was a threat to the health board to court because they wouldn't cough up half of the costs and they needed to. And I was talking of. 2.4 million there. So maybe you could look at some of those in the interim and find out. I, I don't know whether I would ever.
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
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Baroness Nichols of Selby
But there was very. complex needs. And in another area where the staffing ratio for one person, one, one child was. 6 to 1 because of the. complexity and then the needs were still not being met. So I think there is some information out there that maybe you could have a look at, and I'm sure we would. appreciate having that. information on, on the sort of confidential basis without we don't need to know who they are.
We don't need to know where it is. But whether those costs were.
We don't need to know where it is. But whether those costs were.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
If you like. And I think that's the bit that we'd all like to. Yeah, we can certainly take take away and come back with a couple of examples. I should say that where I've sort of pointed out the work we're doing with regional care cooperatives. Alongside that, we obviously continue to work with local authorities. We've done that deep dive I mentioned on the 15 local. authorities in relation to unregistered. So that work.
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Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
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Baroness Shawcross-Wolfson
Shawcross and then the last one from Baroness Watkins. Thank you. Can I just go back to this point about. unregistered children's homes? So I naively perhaps, but I think rightly assume that no director of Children's services is sitting there wanting to use an unregistered children's home. It is. When you're faced with the. position in an evening, you haven't got an alternative. And so that at that moment in time is the best option for the child, I think that is likely to be the case.
I wonder if you could just help us with the thought experiment of if we A thought experiment of. If we said collectively of Parliament, if ministers decided we want to stop this, we will give ourselves a month, two months, six weeks to stop the use of unregistered children's homes. What would that actually require in practical terms? And it may exploring that may discover that it's just not possible to do in one month, two months, six months.
But what is it that would need to be built? What is it that would need to be commissioned? Do you have a sense of the scale of financial . Commitment it
I wonder if you could just help us with the thought experiment of if we A thought experiment of. If we said collectively of Parliament, if ministers decided we want to stop this, we will give ourselves a month, two months, six weeks to stop the use of unregistered children's homes. What would that actually require in practical terms? And it may exploring that may discover that it's just not possible to do in one month, two months, six months.
But what is it that would need to be built? What is it that would need to be commissioned? Do you have a sense of the scale of financial . Commitment it
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
would take? How could we end this problem? I think that's right. And I think as part of the deep dive that we undertook with directors of children's Services, and they're going through the list, that in itself has prompted some action of, you know, if a child is unregistered, how quickly can we move them? Have we you know, it was the right decision at the time, but have we moved them on quickly enough? Was it temporary enough? So I think there are some cases like that.
And we spoke to a director of children's. services over the summer. He talked about the arrangements that he'd done by going through that list, making sure that people were moved on. There was, interestingly, one case where he still felt it was the right decision. It was a rural location. The child was in a very safe environment. The provision around them was absolutely right. It would have disrupted their schooling if they had been moved to a different locality.
So there is also like a very you know, there can be some very specific circumstances where it is still the right thing to do. The importance there, of course, is . Making sure
And we spoke to a director of children's. services over the summer. He talked about the arrangements that he'd done by going through that list, making sure that people were moved on. There was, interestingly, one case where he still felt it was the right decision. It was a rural location. The child was in a very safe environment. The provision around them was absolutely right. It would have disrupted their schooling if they had been moved to a different locality.
So there is also like a very you know, there can be some very specific circumstances where it is still the right thing to do. The importance there, of course, is . Making sure
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
I mean, when I speak to people, for example, in New Zealand and Australia, I do not have any evidence from the people I've spoken to that they would be in this scenario. So are we in a really, really awful place compared to, say, other European. countries who I don't know so well as the two I've mentioned? Or do we not even look at what . Other
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
people are doing? I mean, I don't know specifically on residential, but I know more broadly. So some of our kind of families, family network reforms are based on the fact that some of the countries that you mention have always. prioritized keeping. children with families within their broader communities. So that is a thing that we have in common, including using foster care. and have, you know, we've definitely seen a growth in the use of residential.
I don't know whether that is out of step internationally. I don't know if you do. But certainly on our .
I don't know whether that is out of step internationally. I don't know if you do. But certainly on our .
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
arrangements. I wondered if one was growing more more popular than the other. Oh I see. Well, I mean, I think as part of this campaign is we want to be able to reach a group of people who have perhaps pondered foster carers caring and thought, it's not for me, I work or I'm I don't own my own house or, you know, they've ruled themselves out before. They've ruled themselves in to explore whether it's going to be appropriate for them.
There's someone in my team he fosters, but he does weekend respite, foster caring for a family to give them respite periodically. So there are all sorts of different arrangements. And I think what we want to do through our national campaign, first national campaign ever, is to really open people's eyes to what they can do. Of course, we need full time foster carers as well. You know, we really need that. But I think having that mix mix of type of foster carers, what we're aiming for is not just to have lots more foster care placements available, but also to include some choice so that that provides local.
There's someone in my team he fosters, but he does weekend respite, foster caring for a family to give them respite periodically. So there are all sorts of different arrangements. And I think what we want to do through our national campaign, first national campaign ever, is to really open people's eyes to what they can do. Of course, we need full time foster carers as well. You know, we really need that. But I think having that mix mix of type of foster carers, what we're aiming for is not just to have lots more foster care placements available, but also to include some choice so that that provides local.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
some full time fostering, you know, to me and to encourage. Yeah, yeah, I think definitely. And sometimes people that might come in part time. initially test, test it for them. Does it work for them may then move towards towards full time. And I think alongside the kind of. recruitment we need to think and we are thinking about retention as well. How do we provide the support around that family? What does that look like? How do we meet their needs? And again, that might be matching between a full time foster carer and somebody .
That does
That does
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
extra. accommodation and that support. Yeah. Specifically on fostering in relation to accommodation. We're rolling out something called room makers. So Room Makers is about existing foster carers who are brilliant and would love to have another child in their home but haven't got the space. So that is a capital program where we will convert the loft, convert the . Garage, create
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
review period. I remember my numbers. And then for broader family networks within our Families First Partnership programme that we talked about, that we're investing. 2.4 billion in those provision within there to do family network support packages. So if you have, you know, had a family group decision making meeting, or if you haven't and you've identified a way of shoring up the wider family network, money can be spent via that programme.
If the thing that you need is, you know, some adaptation to the house or whatever it might be, and we're seeing local authorities kind of not use that provision as as much. So we're on our kind of we'll be currently on our second iteration of our programme guide, where we've learned from the first year and said, here's a set of things that you might want to do. So we're trying to encourage more local authorities to make use of some of that provision.
And I think the other thing to say on foster care, I think one of the kind of. misconceptions has been that you always have to make a. lifelong commitment that that is, you know, maybe true, but should be true in kind of fewer cases. We have a big focus both on through the prevention work, but also in fostering in trying to get. reunification with the family, particularly where the family. circumstances may be, you know, domestic abuse while the the mother supports her kind of housing arrangements, etc., or there's mental health in the family and that passes.
So we're always trying to where it's safe and there isn't kind of abuse in the home to, to . Have
If the thing that you need is, you know, some adaptation to the house or whatever it might be, and we're seeing local authorities kind of not use that provision as as much. So we're on our kind of we'll be currently on our second iteration of our programme guide, where we've learned from the first year and said, here's a set of things that you might want to do. So we're trying to encourage more local authorities to make use of some of that provision.
And I think the other thing to say on foster care, I think one of the kind of. misconceptions has been that you always have to make a. lifelong commitment that that is, you know, maybe true, but should be true in kind of fewer cases. We have a big focus both on through the prevention work, but also in fostering in trying to get. reunification with the family, particularly where the family. circumstances may be, you know, domestic abuse while the the mother supports her kind of housing arrangements, etc., or there's mental health in the family and that passes.
So we're always trying to where it's safe and there isn't kind of abuse in the home to, to . Have
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Yeah, yeah. You know, definitely cheaper than residential. Yeah. I mean significantly cheaper than residential. So a local authority again would would obviously for all sorts of reasons, you know, select foster care over over residential if it's if it's appropriate and, and the right the right match foster carers obviously get paid a fee through the local authority as well. And some local authorities will band the level of fees that they pay a family, depending on the complexity of need of the.
child or the arrangements that they've got in place. So there's a whole, you know, various arrangements that local authorities have, you know, from in some cases, you know, deductions on council tax through to accessing leisure passes, free swimming at the weekend, whatever it might be, to really and .
child or the arrangements that they've got in place. So there's a whole, you know, various arrangements that local authorities have, you know, from in some cases, you know, deductions on council tax through to accessing leisure passes, free swimming at the weekend, whatever it might be, to really and .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
state of the children's social care workforce? So as you say, it was. 2022 that we. escalated this as a set of people that are responsible to our department's top tier risks. That is the performance and risk committee that's looking at the things that are most serious. So at that point, we were incredibly worried about the sufficiency. So the number of social workers that we had that was manifested in the both the overall number and the workload statistics.
So how many cases each person is dealing with. We were worried. about the level of. agency use for two reasons. One, because it is incredibly expensive. Local authorities have all sorts of constraints. We spent quite a long time talking about some of the things that drive their costs, but agency costs were part of that problem. But but the other reason we were worried about agency is because those workers cycle in and out.
So when we want stable stability for children, it is not brilliant to have. turnover in that way. And , and we were also worried. about kind of people leaving the profession kind of burnout due to, to . workload we have. And it's worth saying in. de-escalating the risk. It's not that we don't think that those things are a problem, but we have more.
confidence in the programmes that we have in place, and we have certainty over how those, you know, certainly for the rest of the spending review, that those programmes will be in place. And we have 2 to 3 years of. improving data. So I wasn't let off the hook the first time I went to the Performance and Risk Committee, which was a year earlier, to say, I think this is ready to de-escalate. They said, no, you need to wait for another year of data.
So and the programs that we have in place. So we have a set of. programmes that are about recruitment. So attracting people into the profession. The department supports a certain number. We've modelled a. continuation of those. And that is both people from within local. authorities that want to switch. careers as well as graduates. And that is making a difference to sufficiency.
So I think we in the latest numbers that I have in.
So how many cases each person is dealing with. We were worried. about the level of. agency use for two reasons. One, because it is incredibly expensive. Local authorities have all sorts of constraints. We spent quite a long time talking about some of the things that drive their costs, but agency costs were part of that problem. But but the other reason we were worried about agency is because those workers cycle in and out.
So when we want stable stability for children, it is not brilliant to have. turnover in that way. And , and we were also worried. about kind of people leaving the profession kind of burnout due to, to . workload we have. And it's worth saying in. de-escalating the risk. It's not that we don't think that those things are a problem, but we have more.
confidence in the programmes that we have in place, and we have certainty over how those, you know, certainly for the rest of the spending review, that those programmes will be in place. And we have 2 to 3 years of. improving data. So I wasn't let off the hook the first time I went to the Performance and Risk Committee, which was a year earlier, to say, I think this is ready to de-escalate. They said, no, you need to wait for another year of data.
So and the programs that we have in place. So we have a set of. programmes that are about recruitment. So attracting people into the profession. The department supports a certain number. We've modelled a. continuation of those. And that is both people from within local. authorities that want to switch. careers as well as graduates. And that is making a difference to sufficiency.
So I think we in the latest numbers that I have in.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Which is the first point at which we started recording. Vacancies are down. 17% from 2024. So we saw a huge. improvement in 2025. Agency social work is down. 17% from. 2024 to. turnover has improved, etc. so we've got a series of. A series of. Shall I carry on? Yes.
Yeah, yeah. So across, across every, every metric that the department monitors, we saw an improvement and a significant improvement. So as well as our. workforce entry.
Yeah, yeah. So across, across every, every metric that the department monitors, we saw an improvement and a significant improvement. So as well as our. workforce entry.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
We, you know, didn't use kind of the law that we've now taken a power to, to put some of the work that we've done on a statutory basis. But we worked to establish regional memorandums. So quite a lot of what was happening that was pushing the price of social workers upwards, people competing for social workers within localities. They are regionally agreed price caps. Regions are required to report to us on a quarterly basis as to whether anyone is breaking those price caps.
There are arrangements about. Post-qualifying experience. So you you can't kind of, you know, graduate into the workforce. You have to as an agency worker, you have to have three years.
There are arrangements about. Post-qualifying experience. So you you can't kind of, you know, graduate into the workforce. You have to as an agency worker, you have to have three years.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
At the time, the market in particular, particularly the market that operates agency workers, said, oh, you will lose all of these people to the profession. You know, they'll leave, they'll go elsewhere. They haven't. We've seen them return to permanent workforce. So we are much more confident in kind of the supply side . And then on development. So we've talked quite a lot about the. complexity that. Social workers are now dealing with.
So we are investing heavily in professional development. So we've had for quite a long time an early career programme, which is a year we've just launched a well, we've just procured somebody to develop the curriculum materials for a two year early career support.
So we are investing heavily in professional development. So we've had for quite a long time an early career programme, which is a year we've just launched a well, we've just procured somebody to develop the curriculum materials for a two year early career support.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
A support for lead child protection practitioners. So we're saying , actually, if you go into child protection, that is much more skilled, the generic, you know. standards are not enough in order to do child protection work. This is how we'll support you in developing into that aspect of your career. And then there's other strands for people who are leading family health teams, etc., which will come on board. later on.
And, and then the final, I mean, and all of that is worth saying, we did quite a lot of work with ADC's LGA, their workforce committees and the sorts of things that they were telling us that, you know, social workers needed, which is more CPD, more support, more group supervision, etc.. And then we and then the final thing on. workload is we're doing two things. So when I talked about the Families First programme and the evidence based programs that we are putting into.
And, and then the final, I mean, and all of that is worth saying, we did quite a lot of work with ADC's LGA, their workforce committees and the sorts of things that they were telling us that, you know, social workers needed, which is more CPD, more support, more group supervision, etc.. And then we and then the final thing on. workload is we're doing two things. So when I talked about the Families First programme and the evidence based programs that we are putting into.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
Quite a lot of those actually told us that sometimes the intervention works best when it's not with the social worker. So the social workers carry kind of statutory responsibilities. There is a lot of stigma, a lot of fear. Families don't always want to engage because they feel that that is quite serious. So what we're doing in the earlier preventative bit of the system, building on things like the Supporting Families programme, the family group decision making model, all of which used kind of.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
also they're not equipped to deal with those cases. So they were sort of carrying cases and thinking, I don't have the skills to be able to deal with all of this variety of complexity. So there are just some of the things that they're doing. The national professional development offer is, is we've got probably about, I can't quite remember the date we'll come on board in. later in 2027. So we've just concluded the procurement.
We will be making an announcement very shortly as to the lead supplier. And then the suppliers will start developing materials so that local . Authorities
We will be making an announcement very shortly as to the lead supplier. And then the suppliers will start developing materials so that local . Authorities
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
More strain both in terms of local authority finances but also more strain on their families. So there is a kind of, you know, perfect storm of it's really, really hard to be good in those places, which is why particular parts of our country have more performance challenges. And then certainly the if if you're judged.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You see an existing of the workforce. And that is where we would see people, I don't know, I'll say A and B, I was going to say Bradford, because that's where I'm from. But I know I know others in the room are too, you know, you would see people leaving a place and going to a neighbouring authority because that is better, better out, you know, judgement. So some of some of the things that we talked about earlier about sort of.
constraining that movement is quite it's quite important because actually it's.
constraining that movement is quite it's quite important because actually it's.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I don't believe I don't think people turn up to do a bad job. There are contextual. factors within that local authority, which might be external to the local authority, but also kind of broader leadership, corporate leadership, and kind of, you know, we have an intervention and improvement function in the department that's delivered through our regions group, who are who work with us on kind of understanding which places the department needs to wrap around. So actually, just to go back to the workforce.
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
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Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
Which we discussed before you came in, is QC ever working together with them for residential care, and does that provide an opportunity or a problem, i.e. does one go and then the other separately? And we've kind of wonder whether you think there should be just an. inspectorate for this. That can be fast and rapid rather than be .
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
With the direction of reform. So it's quite tricky, isn't it? We have set out a new agenda. We are saying these are the things that now matter. We want to see local authorities that. prioritising family, this sort of practice, doing these sorts of things when they're making residential care decisions or whatever it might be, and we're working quite hard with them to align the two. And I think we've got good alignment.
They have consulted on their changes now that our changes are law. So, so certainly from next year, we will have an inspection framework that is lined up to what the government thinks, both in policy terms and in legal terms, what good looks like. And then they will go through a period of piloting those inspections to see how they're going to work, because there'll be some changes around that. And I think it's definitely worth saying.
So we had we've had in the department up until quite. recently placed, I think rightly so, quite a substantial way on an Ofsted. judgement in terms of the action that the department takes. So if a local authority was.
They have consulted on their changes now that our changes are law. So, so certainly from next year, we will have an inspection framework that is lined up to what the government thinks, both in policy terms and in legal terms, what good looks like. And then they will go through a period of piloting those inspections to see how they're going to work, because there'll be some changes around that. And I think it's definitely worth saying.
So we had we've had in the department up until quite. recently placed, I think rightly so, quite a substantial way on an Ofsted. judgement in terms of the action that the department takes. So if a local authority was.
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
You know, it can be a number of years before something is re-inspected. So we alongside that now are monitoring a key set of system health data. We call them. They come into the department on a quarterly basis, and we're using both. So we have the Ofsted judgement, including monitoring visits, but we also have our own data. And we make a judgement as to whether we want to find out what's going on, perhaps .
Provide some
Provide some
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
Neglect or sexual abuse or. Yeah, yeah. I think it's legitimate for us to think, you know, what, that what more we could do in the future as we begin to look at the purpose of residential and therefore what the inspection arrangements look like. But Ofsted are, you know, in lockstep with us in terms of the reform journey. And they've just their consultation, which covered both Skiff and Ilex, just closed in September. So we expect them to be coming out in the next couple of months with their response to that .
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Lord Barber of Chittlehampton
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Lord Barber of Chittlehampton
Thank you very much, Barbara. Just one question. I was struck when reading myself into this area, and I've learned a lot again this morning by the gap between the outcomes, which are pretty poor for all kinds of reasons. I'm not blaming anybody. And the Ofsted judgements, which seem to think children's homes generally are rather good. There's a kind of disconnect. It . Made me
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Speaker 4
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Speaker 4
I think. I think that's a really fair. comment and and it's interesting, isn't it. I don't know whether you meant kind of educational outcomes, lifelong outcomes. etc. but but currently. Well the new skiff will be different, but they have. essentially kind of looked at what is in the gift of the children's home. So, you know, are they.
providing safe care, you know, all of the right professionals there and haven't looked beyond that because they would consider, you know, someone's educational outcomes to be out of the control of the home. So I think some of the changes that we're, I mean, hoping to make both through the inspection framework, but like the direction that government has set, which is like, if you are in a parenting role, we are definitely concerned about the.
providing safe care, you know, all of the right professionals there and haven't looked beyond that because they would consider, you know, someone's educational outcomes to be out of the control of the home. So I think some of the changes that we're, I mean, hoping to make both through the inspection framework, but like the direction that government has set, which is like, if you are in a parenting role, we are definitely concerned about the.
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Baroness Pidgeon
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Baroness Pidgeon
about the way this is happening. Yeah. And the system join up. So really thinking about how how you know, the child's journey through the system. And I think in designing the Families First programme, the way that we did that through co-design arrangement with those local authorities, the way that we thought about, you know, how education supported the family, how health supported the family, how police. I think we're into that space now with care, when we think about the enduring relationships is a hook for us to, to, to get into who are the people around the child.
But importantly, how is the school amplifying the support needs of that child if attendance isn't in the right place and where it needs to be, what what's the. expectation on the children's home, frankly, because in attendance isn't where it needs to be. So .
But importantly, how is the school amplifying the support needs of that child if attendance isn't in the right place and where it needs to be, what what's the. expectation on the children's home, frankly, because in attendance isn't where it needs to be. So .
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
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Lord Mohammed of Tinsley
towards that. We're not there yet. I'm going to be really quick here just thinking about the outcomes. Maybe we need to have something like payment by results in the sense of it's yes, you're keeping the child safe in the setting, but actually, if you're not preparing that child or young person for the, the world beyond, you know, are we getting value for money, as we've spoke about earlier, you know, half. 1 million to £1 million worth.
Okay. Maybe they may not be the people ready to go to work, but I think there might be an argument for payment by results here. If substantial amount of money is being invested. And as corporate parents, our. responsibility is that we're not getting it.
Okay. Maybe they may not be the people ready to go to work, but I think there might be an argument for payment by results here. If substantial amount of money is being invested. And as corporate parents, our. responsibility is that we're not getting it.
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