Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call Angus Brendan MacNeil.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman is gesticulating from a sedentary position in respect to some other question that we have not reached, but might, and on which he may or may not be called.

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[Mr Speaker]

I see it is a five-way contest in the SNP ranks, but we have got to hear from the Select Committee Chair, and I hope he will be brief.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker—you are a great man indeed.

Devolving powers over work visas would make a tremendous difference to the fishing industry and get people in from non-EEA countries such as, in particular, Ghana and the Philippines, who are very valued in Scotland. Will this Government get on with their job, stop the Brexit soap opera, lift the pin, get the men in, get the boats fishing, and get taxes being paid—and move now?

[David Mundell]

I have already advised the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael)—who, as the hon. Gentleman will have heard, is having a debate at 7 pm this evening; I am sure he will want to be there—that I take this issue very seriously. I am meeting the Home Secretary on it next week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am pleased to tell my right hon. Friend that we have a strong team in Cabinet who will take this decision on Friday. I assure him that the Brexit that the Government will deliver and are working to deliver is a Brexit that ensures that we are out of the customs union, we are out of the single market, we are out of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, we are out of the common agricultural policy, we are out of the common fisheries policy, we bring an end to free movement, we take control of our borders, and we have an independent trade policy, but we are also able to have a good trade arrangement with the European Union, protecting jobs and prosperity for the future.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Q13. Sweetly following on from the right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), with the Prime Minister’s Chequers failure Friday on the way, and “max-fac” soon giving way to “tot cap” or total capitulation, the UK’s Government handling of Brexit has been dither, delay and duck, but can I give the Prime Minister an opportunity for a straight answer? Shellfish producers in my constituency are worried about getting their produce to French and Spanish markets, so together with those countries and independent Ireland, how open does the Prime Minister want and envisage borders and trade routes after Brexit?

[The Prime Minister]

I have made it very clear that we are committed to no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and to as frictionless a border with the European Union in future as possible. Can I also say that I think fishermen up and down the country welcome the proposals that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has introduced on fisheries policy for the future? It is this Government who are taking the UK out of the common fisheries policy. The worst policy for fishermen in Scotland would be the Scottish National party’s policy of staying in the CFP.

Military Action Overseas: Parliamentary Approval

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ian Blackford]

I will not take any more interventions because I must move on.

I have already talked about what happened in 2015, when the House voted on taking action against Daesh. Nobody is talking about compromising operational activity; this is about the principle of Parliament giving its consent to military action. That is what we are talking about.

I must make progress. Preparing the groundwork for peace has to be a fundamental part of any proposed military action, as well as developing a clear and coherent plan that addresses the humanitarian crisis. It is a damning tale that the UK spent 13 times as much money on bombing Libya than it did on rebuilding the country at the end of the conflict. We must not be dragged into the reckless rhetoric of the President of the United States when he claims “mission accomplished”.

I call on the Government urgently to tell the House, by means of a statement, what their long-term strategy is for achieving peace in Syria and helping the nation rebuild after the war.

On Saturday, we were presented with the legal advice the Prime Minister relied on to justify Saturday’s airstrikes. I repeat my comments from yesterday: the SNP has grave concerns about the extent of the legal advice. As I noted yesterday, in the absence of a UN resolution or self-defence, the two clear-cut legal grounds for attack, the Prime Minister’s legal reliance is based on averting a humanitarian crisis. Syria is the most besieged and bombed placed on earth right now. It is not easy to see how adding war planes and airstrikes to the Syrian skies averts further humanitarian suffering: thousands dead, millions fleeing for their lives, 400,000 civilians still trapped in appalling conditions, deprived of food, medicine and basic aid, and over 13 million civilians in desperate need of humanitarian aid. I heard the cry about refugees—yes, our responsibility for refugees. We can look back with pride to the Kindertransport in the months leading up to the second world war, when 10,000 children were let into this country. Where is that spirit of humanity to deal with the crisis in Syria today?

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

It is said that many a true word is spoken in jest. I think it was the comedian Frankie Boyle who said that the UK cares very much about the Syrians until they reach a beach. We have to make sure that we put as much effort into refugees as is being put into dropping bombs.

[Ian Blackford]

Absolutely. The situation on the ground in Syria is desperate. We cannot and must not look at Syria through the narrow prism of military action. There are fantastic people, groups and organisations on the ground just getting through each day and they deserve the international community’s full support. I pay tribute in particular to the White Helmets, who have not only saved so many lives but have continuously run into danger to protect civilians.

We must work with the UN and international partners to ensure all action in Syria meets with international law. I have grave concerns that the Prime Minister did not wait for OPCW inspectors to complete their visit and investigations in Douma before taking a decision to respond. Many countries around the world place constitutional controls on the use of military power. The SNP believes in a triple lock on military deployments, based on the principles that military action would need to be: in accordance with the principles of the UN charter; properly agreed by Government; and approved by Parliament. If I may say so, those are principles that any independent Scottish Government would adhere to. Those of us on the SNP Benches believe that the time has come for a war powers Act. A long-standing policy of the SNP, we believe it will stop situations such as that we saw last week, where Parliament is completely bypassed in a reckless fashion.

Parliamentary approval was the Conservative party’s position not so long ago. In 2011, the then Foreign Secretary William Hague stated that the UK Government planned to

“enshrine in law for the future the necessity of consulting Parliament on military action.”—[Official Report, 21 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 799.]

Then the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee identified

“an urgent need for greater clarity on Parliament’s role in decisions to commit British forces to armed conflict abroad”.

It recommended that the Government should in the first instance bring forward a draft parliamentary resolution for consultation and for decision by the end of 2011. As we all know, that did not happen.

In conclusion, we on the SNP Benches warmly welcome the support of the Leader of the Opposition for bringing forward a war powers Act. I hope that we can work together—indeed, across the House with Government Members, too—to create a war powers Act for this place.

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[Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Parliament has done its correct duty—admittedly assisted by you, Mr Speaker—in ensuring that there were six hours of debate yesterday and a further three hours of debate today, but these constitutional issues are not new. Indeed, this matter is at the heart of the Glorious Revolution, and one of the clauses of the Bill of Rights, which is still our law, states that

“the raising or keeping a standing Army within the Kingdome in time of Peace unlesse it be with Consent of Parlyament is against Law.”

That is why every five years an Armed Forces Bill is passed—to ensure that the armed forces that are available to the Executive are approved by Parliament.

This last happened in 2016 when the Armed Forces Act was renewed. On that occasion, the Bill passed Second Reading without a Division, and it passed Third Reading without a Division. There was uniform consent in this House that the armed services should exist on a similar basis to that on which they have existed since 1689. The Leader of the Opposition did not choose to put down an amendment to put any limits on how the armed services could operate. He did not choose to put down an amendment to say that the Government could not act without the specific consent of Parliament. At every stage, the Bill was passed, and it recognised the proper constitutional settlement and the separation of powers. An Executive and a legislature are different things and have different responsibilities.

As hon. Members know, I have the highest respect for the leader of the Scottish National party in this House—the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford)—but I think that he made an error in his speech when he suggested that this House ought to give pre-approval, because the job of the House is to hold the Executive to account, not to try to run the Executive by remote control.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

If it is the Executive’s idea to go to war or engage in military action, should not this House hold the Executive to account for their thoughts, ideas and policies?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The Executive are being held to account today. The Prime Minister spent six hours yesterday being held to account in this House and a further hour today.

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[Gavin Robinson]

We have not flouted international law, of course. After Kosovo, there is a clear legal justification for action for humanitarian purposes, as has been clearly outlined. We could even go back to the UN resolution of 2013: articles 1 and 21 specifically provide for military action where there has been a breach of, or failure to adhere to, the chemical weapons prohibition charter. That is there. The UN has been talked about, and everyone knows about the process and the problems we have had in getting Russian approval in the Security Council for a position for action.

The UN did back action for the first Gulf war; it mandated action for that, but the Leader of the Opposition put down motions in this House condemning the UN for giving its approval for such actions. This matters, because the motion before the House is not about a noble justification for the introduction of a legislative barrier on our Government in taking action; this matters because there are those in this place who dress up as noble their position, while all they want to do in each and every instance is frustrate the ability of this Government or the international community to take action against tyrants.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

This debate is not about the voting record of the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). It is about a principle and practice going forward where 650 Members of Parliament representing the people of the United Kingdom make a decision on such matters. It is not about those who might happen to find themselves in certain positions in Government; it is about Parliament having oversight of what they are doing.

[Gavin Robinson]

That is the point the hon. Gentleman has made, and there are people who genuinely believe that: there are people who genuinely take a principled position and on each and every occasion will take a decision on the basis—

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[Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Lady. One of the issues here is that when we debate military intervention, we quite often get things quite wrong on the basis of limited information, the rest of which we are not privy to. In 2013, this House was recalled to debate, discuss and vote on a motion to approve military intervention against Syria on the basis of Assad’s use of chemical weapons in the past. At that time, the chemical used was sarin, and 1,700 people died, and who knows how many of them were children. It was an ever-worsening situation that came after two years of inaction from the UN, and it was backed by evidence from the UN’s weapons inspectors. As we know, that vote was lost. I did not back the action, and I carry a sense of guilt following how I voted.

At the time, many Members on both sides of the House argued that if we did not vote to take action, that would be perceived as a weakness. They argued that no action, in addition to the UN’s intransigence, would mean that Assad would strike again and would use chemical weapons against Syrian civilians and children again in the future. Those Members were absolutely right. We are debating here today after the same thing has happened again.

After the 2013 vote, the first country to say that it welcomed our voting not to bomb Syria was Russia, strangely enough. What happened last week was a necessary one-off strike to attack and disable some of the chemical depositories and bases owned by Assad and to leave him in no doubt that the international community will never accept his breaking of a century-old accord—his crossing of the red line—and his use of chemical weapons on his own civilians. The Prime Minister, along with France, America and our allies, will not accept that, and they have stood by the side of the civilians and children of Syria.

Until recently, my constituency was home to RAF Henlow and is still home to the RAF Chicksands intelligence base. My constituents include many former and existing military service personnel. Launching a one-off, pre-emptive strike with no discussion or vote was the Prime Minister putting the safety of those personnel at the heart of her decision. Let none of us here be so arrogant as to think that we know best, that we know more or that we should always have the final say, because it has already been proven that we do not always get it right, and some would argue that we got it wrong when we voted to go to war in Iraq in 2003. If the Prime Minister was proposing regime change or to go to war or to enter into a sustained campaign, we would of course have a debate, and we would expect the Prime Minister to bring that case to Parliament, perhaps even for a vote. However, she was not.

Before we vote today, I ask every Member to imagine what I am about to say, because this is not about a process and there is no substance to the motion that we will be voting on.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

rose—

[Ms Dorries]

I will not give way.

Imagine that the children of Syria, with their eyes streaming and their bloodstained spittle, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) just described, are stood here in the Chamber with us. Imagine that they are sat among us, listening to us. How would they want us to vote? This is not about process or whether information is brought to the House of Commons.

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[Johnny Mercer (Plymouth, Moor View) (Con)]

Thank you for granting this debate today, Mr Speaker. I think everybody knows my position, but I want to lay it out clearly. I profoundly disagree with many Members when it comes to a potential war powers Act, which would be an act of calamitous insanity for our foreign policy. I am going to make it very clear why I think that and why the Prime Minister has done absolutely the right thing, and I ask Members to hear my remarks in context.

I have done the other side of the veil. I have operated at the highest possible strategic level for this country on operations, and I must be honest: if we are to continue to have the freedom to manoeuvre and the opportunity to keep this country safe, we cannot enshrine these powers of the Prime Minister in a war powers Act.

First, there are the practical reasons. It is absolutely right that some aspects of intelligence in this country will never be made public. Why? Because the way we gather them is a secret, and our opponents do not know how we gather them. If we bring them out into the public domain, we expose that capability and we make this country less safe, simply so we can have a say in this House on foreign policy. That is not right.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Johnny Mercer]

I will not give way. I have heard a lot of the arguments in this House.

The speed and secrecy that we try to uphold in military operations cannot be curtailed by decision making. Should Parliament have a say? Should Parliament have a debate? Should MPs be listened to? Are MPs important in this debate? Absolutely, but when it comes to the defence of this nation and the defence of the freedoms and privileges that we in this House live up to and enjoy every day, we cannot retrospectively inhibit the people who fight for them by introducing a war powers Act.

This country has a role to play on the global stage. Think for a moment of the Americans and the French and of how we would look when they ask us in the dead of night, in that last decision-making process, whether or not we will stand shoulder to shoulder with them in some of these highly contentious operations. Do we want our Prime Minister to have in the back of her mind, “I’ve got to go to Parliament and I may lose a vote, so therefore I am not going to do the right thing for the country”? Or do we want to empower her to do the right thing in the British national interest to keep this country safe?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

It is crucial to show up such inconsistencies.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman is making a good speech showing up the deficiencies of the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. Does he agree that current events show the vastly advantageous situation in which Ireland finds itself? Its Parliament is not dependent on this place but is actually pulling the strings and telling this place what to do, and this place has to listen.

[Stephen Doughty]

I do not want to get too drawn into conversations about the state of the negotiations. I have already said that they are absolutely shambolic. Members from Northern Ireland are present and I am sure that they will contribute, if they wish to do so, and there will be a great number of debates on Wednesday.

I am absolutely clear, however, that Wales should not be treated less favourably than any other part of the United Kingdom. I am sure that Scottish Members would say the same about Scotland. Whether that relates to debates about remaining in the single market and the customs union—I believe that we should do so—or to other areas of legislative competence or to funding, about which this place has had many lively debates, Wales deserves to be treated as an equal. The First Minister, Carwyn Jones, is absolutely right to have made that absolutely clear this evening, given the shambolic events in Brussels today.

To return to the advice given to Assembly Members, its chief legal adviser has said that the Bill means that, effectively,

“London could step in and make law for Wales on devolved matters”.

The Bill does not stipulate that that would be subject to the agreement of the Welsh Government or the Assembly. In some cases—I am trying to be charitable—constitutional conventions, such as the Sewel convention, would apply, but the reality is that we are expected to take these matters on trust, when we could be legislating for them and getting the Bill’s detail right.

David Rees, a Welsh Labour Assembly Member and Chair of its External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, has said:

“If this Bill does seek to constrain the Assembly’s powers, then it could be seen as undermining devolution and the democratic will of the Welsh people, as expressed in the 2011 referendum on full law-making powers for Wales.”

When we talk about referendums, we need to be clear that they all have value and importance. We need to listen to them all, not just one, and not just interpret them as we see fit. Scottish colleagues have also said as much, with the Scottish Brexit Minister saying very clearly:

“The current proposals are a direct threat to the devolution settlement which the people of Scotland overwhelmingly voted for”.

We are talking about different mandates and our democracy; let us make sure that we listen to all parts of that democracy, not just some of them.

The Library clearly states:

“Matters of devolved competence are effectively reserved in this Act of UK Parliament… Devolved competence frozen…which will go out of date over time… No statutory basis for discussing and making new frameworks.”

That is why Labour Front Benchers’ new clauses 64 and 65 are so important. We need to give statutory effect to those frameworks, and we need clear guidance and processes. There is a small degree of disagreement among Members of different parties about their impact, but I will not dwell on that. It is clear that we need clear frameworks to debate and discuss these matters.

As currently drafted, clause 11 will amend both devolution Acts for Wales by inserting a new restriction on the competence of devolved legislatures. The Welsh and Scottish Governments consider that those provisions fundamentally cut across the principles of the devolution settlements, which is why the amendments that so many Members have signed would remove those restrictions in clause 11 and schedule 3.

I do not want to get into too much technical detail, but there is a crucial point to be made about the nature of Welsh devolution and how it has developed, particularly in the new Wales Act 2017, some parts of which have yet even to come into effect. I urge Ministers to look carefully at the sequencing. They do not seem to have thought through the commencement dates of different parts of the Act and how they relate to the Brexit process.

The question whether Wales would have reserved or conferred powers was at the heart of the debate about that Act. Mark Drakeford, a Welsh Government Minister, made some clear points about that in his evidence to the Assembly’s External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee. He said that, essentially, there would be a move backwards from the reserved powers model and that the areas set out in the Bill would be subject to conferred powers. He set out the case very clearly, and I hope that you will excuse me, Sir David, if I quote what he said:

“In the Welsh Government’s view, this is an extremely complex and confusing basis on which to construct a properly-functioning system of legislative devolution. Even if we agreed with the policy behind clause 11, we would have strongly to oppose the way the Bill impacts on the structural foundations of devolution, reversing as it does many of the gains for devolution which adoption of the Wales Act reserved powers model aims to create.”

This is the danger of the Brexit Bill process. Those who drafted the Bill seem to lack an understanding of devolution and the different ongoing processes. Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have much in common, but they are different. One big gain we achieved in the passage of the Wales Act was moving to a reserved powers model, which the Scottish Parliament and Government have enjoyed for some time. It seems absurd for that to be suddenly rolled back, changing and creating different categories when we have just set out what we thought was a settlement. That is an absurd situation.

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[Stephen Doughty]

Absolutely. The danger of this place is that we sometimes get into the technical detail, but do not talk about the implications. Fundamentally, this is about where the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly have powers over the areas that affect many parts of our lives. When we talk about the impact Brexit could have on the agricultural sector, transport and customs arrangements—look at the debate on Ireland and Northern Ireland today—we need to speak a lot more about how the maritime border between Wales and the Republic of Ireland could be completely messed up, and the effect of the shenanigans and chaos of today’s negotiations on the prospects for Welsh businesses, ports and hauliers. These are real things that affect real lives. They might seem obtuse within this place, but they have an impact in reality.

Finally, I want to reflect on what the Exiting the European Union Committee said in paragraph 77 of its recent report. It was very clear about the problem of trust, and I think that this gets to the heart of the matter. The Government expect us to trust them that everything is going to be okay: there will be no problems; this is all going to fine; and, as I said, it is going to be all right on the night. The Committee said:

“Whilst the Government has said that it plans to work with the devolved administrations to reach agreements on UK common frameworks, the devolved administrations have insufficient trust in the process for agreeing these…relationships and have, accordingly, indicated that they will withhold legislative consent from the Bill. The Government must improve engagement with the devolved administrations. It must reach an agreement with the devolved administrations, which might result in changes to the Bill, setting out how and when…competencies will be devolved.”

What surprises me about this process is that the Government have known about those concerns. They have heard them repeatedly from Welsh and Scottish Ministers. They clearly were not listening to the concerns of some of their Northern Irish colleagues; otherwise we would not have seen today’s mess.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Those concerns have been laid out by the Scottish Government for over a year now. Surely today’s actions by the UK Government show that if they can concede on Northern Ireland with regard to the customs union and the single market, despite the Democratic Unionist party vetoing that, they can make the same offer to Scotland and to Wales.

[Stephen Doughty]

I completely agree. The simple way to resolve all these issues would be for us to stay within the customs union and the single market, to stop messing about, get on with it and remove half the problems that will be created for Wales, Scotland and elsewhere. That is my very clear view.

What I cannot understand is that the Government have been told about these problems repeatedly by Welsh Government Ministers. They have been told about these problems repeatedly by the legal advisers in the devolved Administrations. They have been told about these problems repeatedly by Members of this House. They have had plenty of time to come up with some fixes. Some of these areas are really not that contentious. They are practical. They are not about wrecking the Bill or stopping Brexit; they are about making sure we keep a stable constitutional settlement in these islands.

And yet, where is the evidence that the Government have listened to any of it? So far, there is very, very little. In fact, the Secretary of State for Wales has barely been in here for the debate. Other Ministers have been here for longer. The Secretary of State for Scotland at least had the courtesy to take part in it and make some interventions. The Secretary of State for Wales has been completely absent, apart from about 20 minutes at the start of Bill. I do not think that that shows respect for the people of Wales and for the Members of the Welsh Assembly who have been putting these concerns forward. I sincerely hope that Ministers do listen and come up with fixes to these problems. Otherwise, I can tell them that they will have a very rocky ride on Report and in the other place and that they will have very little, if any, chance of getting the legislative consent motions, which they say they want to receive, from the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament.

[David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con)]

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this lively debate. I am here to represent all my constituents as best I can, not just those who voted for me and not just those who voted in 2016 to leave. It has been estimated that approximately 54% voted to leave, but I also represent those who continue to have concerns about what will happen after we leave the EU. I appreciate the concerns expressed by many of my constituents, even if I do not necessarily always share them. I will come on to talk about why.

I can understand, to some extent, a certain level of cynicism towards the UK Government—of any Government—by our population. There seems to be a belief, however mistaken, that Scotland’s best interests could be side-lined in the EU withdrawal process. The UK Government, however, are working with, not against, the devolved Administration in Edinburgh to deliver an outcome that works for the whole UK, including Scotland. It is about getting the best deal that works for Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland inside the United Kingdom—that is the key point I want to keep coming back to—so when the SNP and its supporters suggest that Scottish Conservative MPs somehow do not have the best interests of Scotland and the Scottish people at heart, I find that, quite frankly, offensive and insulting. Conservative Scottish MPs, as has been shown, speak up regularly for not only our constituents, but for Scotland as a whole.

I was surprised to hear so much mention of the so-called power grab, considering the amount of progress that has been reported between Ministers from both Scotland’s Governments on that very topic. I was happy to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) quote Nigel Smith, who led the Scotland Forward campaign, that there is actually no power grab. The Bill is about continuity and certainty as much as it is about control. Powers that currently sit with Brussels will return to the UK, but we will still have devolution after Brexit. The devolved institutions, particularly the Scottish Parliament, will end up, through a period of systematic and methodical transition, with more powers than it currently holds. It will certainly have far more powers than if we followed the SNP’s policy of staying in the EU.

The SNP wants the Scottish Government to have more powers, but it does not necessarily want to devolve those powers any further than Edinburgh. It would rather see powers go back to Brussels than to our rural and coastal communities, for example. It has two obsessions: independence and centralisation. [Interruption.] Scotland is far bigger than just the central belt. [Interruption.] It is nice of the SNP to join us.

The Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations, chaired by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, has provided the leaders of the devolved Governments with an opportunity to help to shape the UK’s exit from the EU. This is important because there is a clear need for UK frameworks to protect the sectors of our economy most heavily influenced by EU laws.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Can the hon. Gentleman imagine any politician elected in the Republic of Ireland thinking that Ireland could not manage such matters itself, especially given what has happened today? Why does he require—demand, need—London to do this? Can he not stand on his own two feet and look at the world eye to eye? What is this puppy-dog need for London to sort it all out?

[David Duguid]

I do not recognise those concerns. As has been said by several hon. Members tonight, this is a matter of trust, and I accept that it is probably far easier for Scottish Members on the Government Benches to trust the Government to get on with the job of delivering the Bill as required.

As I said, the leaders of the devolved Governments have an opportunity to help shape the UK’s exit from the EU. This is important because there is a universally recognised need for UK frameworks to protect sectors of our economy heavily influenced by EU laws, particularly agriculture and fisheries, which are very important to my constituency. It is universally recognised, including by the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, that UK frameworks are necessary and must be established, not imposed, as has been mentioned. This should be done in full partnership with the UK Government. That recognition was shared in what I thought was quite a beautiful moment between the Secretary of State for Scotland and the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) in a recent meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee.

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[Hywel Williams]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid), who talked about the promise of more and better powers than the Scottish Parliament currently holds. I suppose the same goes for Wales, but the problem is the question of when, and how we can be sure. While he ruminates on that, perhaps I will get on with my speech.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Although the Tories might need to ruminate on that, clearly Leo Varadkar does not. He has the powers and he is using them.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. That was an instructive point for us all.

I rise to speak to Plaid Cymru’s amendments 90 to 92. I am pleased to have co-sponsored the similar joint Welsh and Scottish Government amendments although, for reasons that I will make clear, I prefer my own versions.

The UK constitution is unwritten—or at least it is not written down all in one place—and is constantly evolving. It has evolved in such a way that we no longer live in a one-Parliament state. The UK consists of four representative, governing and law-making bodies, not one. That might seem like stating the obvious but, as I noted in my speech on our first day in Committee, there is no operative Assembly in Northern Ireland, the Parliaments in Wales and Scotland are considered differently from this one in Westminster, and of course England is invisible, except that we accept at the very least that England is de facto represented by this place, which raises questions of conflicts of interest.

The point is that democracy and its values apply to all, not just to one, and devolution demands that all parts of the UK have a say, not just one. As Members will know, the devolution statutes operate through a reserved-powers model in which certain matters are listed as the UK Parliament’s responsibilities. That means that matters not explicitly reserved to the UK Parliament are within the competence of the devolved legislatures.

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We are inclined to support new clause 64. We are critical of it, as it enshrines a UK framework, whereas, as a Welsh party, we naturally want frameworks that are tailored to our needs, drawn up by us along with others. The new clause also posits the interesting but undefined notion of an UK internal market, which has been mentioned several times this evening. That title is snaffled from the EU internal market, which by now is long-established and acts according to explicit negotiated rules that are agreed between the parties of the 28, as the hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) said earlier.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman is making a good point, and the rhetoric of a UK single market would make sense if the UK was composed of independent states, instead of being one super-state.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman has made that point already, and I agree with it.

In contrast to the EU internal market, the nature of the UK internal market appears to be self-evident and a matter of common sense to many people. It might be great and it might be something that has grown organically and suits us all, but how often have we seen apparently simple, clear and—crucially—unregulated systems descend into a writhing tangle of irreconcilable and conflicting interests? That is what might happen. We might wish for a simple UK internal market, but we might regret it if we wish for it. We will vote for new clause 64 but, if it is passed, we will give close consideration to how it could be improved through further amendments.

Subsidiarity is supposedly one of the governing principles of the European Union. Powers are supposed to be exercised as close to the citizen as possible. That model does not exist in the UK, where the UK Government remain sovereign. We rely on the separation of competences listed in the newly enshrined reserved powers model in the recently passed Wales Act 2017. This Bill, as it stands, undermines and reverses 20 years of the existence of the National Assembly for Wales.

Professor Rawlings, the professor of public law at University College London, in evidence to the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee on 31 October, highlighted the concern over what he describes as the double-hatted nature of the UK Government, meaning that they simultaneously represent the UK-wide Government and the Government of England. I raised that point during my speech on our first day in Committee. As I said earlier, this raises a concern not only about conflicts of interest, but about the fact that the subcultures, networks and assumptions of large Departments, including the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, are focused, almost unconsciously, on England. That has been a recurring theme throughout Select Committee evidence sessions. As I said with reference to the Department of Health, this is a long-standing difficulty.

In evidence to the Brexit Committee on 17 October, Laura Dunlop, QC said:

“In our prototype framework—whatever our internal market is destined to look like—at the moment, there is one party in the discussions that is wearing two hats, and that is the UK Government, who are also required to speak for England. That is a significant difficulty, in my view.”

The hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh South West and I were there to hear Laura Dunlop say that. On 24 October, Dr Viviane Gravey told the Welsh Affairs Committee:

“What I mean by giving greater powers is that during that period planned in the Withdrawal Bill, UK Ministers will be able to change the law that has been given back from Brussels, but the devolved”

Governments

“will not. There is then a question of whether any changes made will be in the interests of the whole of the UK or just of England.”

That is the question.

The United Kingdom consists of four countries—four political bodies—not just one. Democracy requires and values all voices, not just one. Devolution demands that all countries within the United Kingdom have a say in the future, not just one. Members will have the opportunity today to stop this Westminster power grab. If all the Opposition parties turn up to vote, and vote together in the interests of the devolved countries, we can stop this encroachment on Welsh sovereignty and put all four UK countries on an equal footing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

How does the UK Government’s approach to working together with the devolved Administrations differ from their approach to working together with, say, Dublin and the other members of the EU27? Is one not a meeting of equals and the other a meeting of master and underling?

[Chris Skidmore]

The work on the common frameworks that clause 11 addresses points to the fact that we are keenly working with the devolved Administrations on drawing up those frameworks. We have an absolute commitment to ensuring that we can look at the principles that were agreed between our Governments on 16 October and that explicitly recognise that frameworks will not be needed in many of the areas currently governed by EU law.

As we have said from the outset, the Bill starts a process that will lead to a significant increase in decision-making powers. That is not a power grab. We are ensuring that more powers go back to the devolved Administrations and legislatures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore]

I am discussing whether the clause should stand part of the Bill and I am about to turn to the hon. Gentleman’s amendments. I hope that he can wait in eager anticipation for my remarks and that he will not be disappointed, although he may be.

I reiterate that I welcome scrutiny by the House on the approach that the Government have taken. As I said, I also welcome the vital contributions the Scottish Government, Welsh Government and devolved legislatures have made in this debate by publishing their views on how devolution aspects of the Bill might be improved. This Government are clear that we want to consider all those views and make improvements to the Bill where we can, but I also emphasise that it is right that we provide certainty across the UK, as this clause seeks to do, and do not take any action to undermine the integrity of our United Kingdom.

I will also take a moment to reflect on the insightful contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), informed by the evidence to and input from the members of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. He made a number of pertinent points and I will turn to those now. He is right to say that leaving the EU is that opportunity to revisit some key constitutional questions. As I have set out today, the Government’s aim in introducing clause 11 is to do precisely that: to give us time to give these important issues the consideration they deserve.

We welcome the views of experts such as my hon. Friend and his Committee on these issues of intergovernmental institutional relationships. The Government are ensuring that we engage with other external experts such as leading academics on these questions. What we are focused on today is how we provide that certainty and continuity we need in the law on exit day and how we give ourselves time to consider the issues properly and reach the right answers. I welcome my hon. Friend’s continued contributions to this discussion.

New clause 64, which relates to the creation of common frameworks, comprise three subsections and I will take each in turn. First, the new clause would require the Government to lay their proposals for the replacement of European frameworks with UK ones before each House of Parliament. It is not the position of the UK Government, or of the devolved Administrations, that the existing UK frameworks will be replaced by our own common frameworks in every instance. Instead, we expect more power to sit directly with the devolved Administrations as a result of our leaving the EU.

As I mentioned earlier, we are working closely with the devolved Administrations to determine where future frameworks, whether legislative or non-legislative, will be required in each of the policy areas in question. Although joint conclusions have not been drawn at this point—as I have stated, I do not want to prejudice the outcome of the discussions with the devolved Administrations—we believe that the majority of policy areas will not require legislative frameworks.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Surely the determination is very simple. It is set down in the Scotland Act 1998 that what is not reserved is devolved, so if it comes from Europe, it will be devolved. It is set down and it is simple. It should not be up to the Minister to be judge and jury. He talks about partnership, but he should respect the law.

[Chris Skidmore]

As I set out clearly at the beginning of my speech, when current EU law—which it is the UK’s position not to breach—is transferred to become retained EU law, we need to look at the areas where we need to create common frameworks. That is the position that the hon. Gentleman’s own Brexit Minister, Mike Russell, has taken. Mike Russell signed the communiqué and agreed to look at these common approaches and to look at retained EU law being transferred across.

The hon. Gentleman should speak to members of the Scottish Government, because they seem to understand the need to work with the UK Government to come up with common frameworks. He seems to be unaware of the process of engagement that is taking place outside the House. His constituents will not thank him for bringing up constitutional points and not acknowledging that, in looking at the common frameworks procedure and at EU law, we need to ensure that, when it comes to exit day, there is certainty, control and stability in respect of our statute book. We need to ensure that clause 11 provides for that.

Should our detailed discussions conclude that UK-wide or parallel legislation is necessary, both Houses of Parliament will of course have an important role to play in scrutinising the detailed proposals. Where policy areas are released from the temporary arrangements provided for in clause 11, the Order in Council process provides a mechanism to do precisely that to ensure that these decisions are subject to careful scrutiny by both Houses of Parliament and the relevant devolved legislatures.

Secondly, the new clause would permit the establishment of frameworks only where the criteria set out in it are met. That is also unnecessary. Although I agree with the criteria, which, as the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman) pointed out, have been lifted by and large from the broader principles that underpin the creation of frameworks, they form only one part of the picture. The broader principles were agreed by the UK, Scottish and Welsh Governments at the meeting of the JMC (EN) on 16 October and were published in the communiqué that I have put on the record. To ensure that the interests of Northern Ireland were heard, a senior official from the Northern Ireland civil service was in attendance.

Those broader principles recognise, among other things, the importance of a wider range of issues, including

“the economic and social linkages between Northern Ireland and Ireland”.

Not only do we have an established set of detailed principles; we have put those principles into practice through a process of ongoing engagement and analysis with the devolved Administrations on where common frameworks are or are not needed. It therefore follows that the more limited set of criteria in the new clause is unnecessary.

Finally, the new clause would permit the creation of frameworks only if they were subject to consultation agreements with the affected devolved Administrations. Once again, that is unnecessary. As the agreed principles published in the communiqué make clear:

“It will be the aim of all parties to agree where there is a need for common frameworks and the content of them.”

The Government are committed to intensive discussions on the areas where common frameworks will and will not be required with the devolved Administrations, and those are happening right now. I therefore urge the hon. Member for Darlington to withdraw the new clause.

New clause 65 seeks to enshrine the Joint Ministerial Committee in legislation. The Joint Ministerial Committee is a forum for the UK Government and the devolved Administrations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to discuss matters of joint interest and is underpinned by a memorandum of understanding between the four Administrations. Specifically, it provides for a focus of intergovernmental relations and allows attending Ministers to present the positions of their own Administration in a multilateral setting. There is no need to enshrine the JMC provisions in legislation as set out in new clause 65. Indeed, doing so would place limitations on the ability of the members to adapt to what is a rapidly changing political landscape.

The current basis for the JMC has been agreed by all four Administrations and allows for wide-ranging discussions, including on topical issues such as EU exit. The JMC, as set out by the written agreements, must remain adaptable enough to address those four Governments’ interests. If this clause were to be added to the statute book, it could severely hamper the JMC’s ability to do so.

The scope of the committee and its supporting sub-committees is not solely to discuss the domestic impact of EU exit and negotiations with the EU. The JMC plenary, which is chaired by the Prime Minister, should also continue to discuss matters agreed by the Administrations as set out by the terms of reference under subsection (1) (a). As drafted, new clause 65 would significantly limit the scope of the Joint Ministerial Committee. The provisions under subsection (1) are already being demonstrated through the JMC on EU negotiations sub-committee. My right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State chaired the most recent JMC (EN) meeting on 16 October and will chair a further meeting on 12 December to build on those discussions that have taken place so far.

There are also other sub-committees that are equally important for the integrity of intergovernmental relations. The provisions under subsection (5) stipulate that either my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union must chair all further meetings of the Joint Ministerial Committee until a withdrawal agreement is concluded. That would ignore the role of my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State who chairs what I am sure will be recognised as an important sub-committee on EU negotiations as well as other sub-committees of the JMC that already exist, such as the sub-committee on Europe. Such provisions will remove the flexibility afforded to the Joint Ministerial Committee to adapt and evolve.

The existing written agreements coupled with the ongoing multilateral and bilateral engagement between Ministers and officials make this new clause redundant. The versatility of the committee is achieved through consensus of the participating Administrations and therefore we urge the Opposition not to press their amendment.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman talked earlier about co-operation and listening. Our party represents the Government of Scotland. Then there is the party that represents the Government of Wales. In this spirit of co-operation, which amendments will he be taking from either of those parties?

[Chris Skidmore]

I am currently going through the list of amendments and setting out the Government’s position on them. When it comes to looking at the Bill, the Government will listen to those who seek to improve it constructively. We are in Committee at the moment, and we have amendments and legislative consent memorandums that have been tabled by the Welsh and the Scottish Governments. The Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), and I have been to Scotland to give evidence. My hon. Friend has also given evidence to Welsh Select Committees. We are determined that it is not just SNP Members who have a veto over this process. There is a consensus that we need to seek across all devolved Administrations—

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

rose—

[Chris Skidmore]

I have given way to the hon. Gentleman several times; I will not do so again.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Skidmore]

No, I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman came in relatively late. I have given way to him several times. I am making my point in response to the amendment, which he does not even want to listen to. The point is that there is a reasonableness test: the UK Government are determined to be the reasonable partner, but we will listen to anyone who puts forward amendments to the Bill and who is determined to ensure that our statute book is protected on exit day, that the UK integral internal market is protected, and that we have that stability, certainty and control that we need for businesses and for the people of Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland, as they will not thank us if we do not work together to ensure that that is achieved. The point of clause 11 is to ensure that we have that stability, certainty and control.

I now turn to amendment 337, which is to be read with amendment 42 and new clause 64. It provides that existing EU law limits on devolved competence will remain in place until the end of the transitional period. At that point, amendment 42 would give the devolved Administrations and legislatures the power to legislate in relation to those matters currently subject to EU law but that are otherwise devolved.

I will discuss amendments 90 to 92, 132 to 134 and 164, which essentially provide the same effect as that of 42, which means that the devolved institutions will be able to diverge from those retained EU law frameworks after exit day. I will also deal with consequential amendments 177 to 179, 181, 185 and 191 to 193, which flow from those substantive amendments. I understand the intention behind these amendments, but we cannot agree with the effects. I have already set out the measures in clause 11 that establish the temporary arrangement that maintains the currents parameters of devolved competence, taking no decision-making power away from the devolved Administrations or legislatures. This means that where we have common approaches across the UK by virtue of EU law, they will continue to apply as they currently do after exit day.

It is vital that we provide certainty to businesses and to people who live and work across the UK, and that laws in place remain consistent while we work with the devolved Administrations to consider where we may need common approaches and where we do not. The amendments risk undermining not only that certainty, but out precious Union. Let me be clear: this Government are committed to ensuring that power sits closer to the people than ever before. Our commitment to strengthening the devolution settlements is clear from the statute book with, most recently, the Wales Act 2017 and the Scotland Act 2016, which has made the Scottish Parliament one of the most powerful devolved Parliaments in the world.

In line with our commitment to devolution, we have been clear that we expect the process of leaving the EU to result in a significant increase in the decision-making powers of the devolved Administrations. But we are also clear about how this must happen. We need careful analysis with the devolved Administrations to determine the areas where common UK-wide or GB-wide approaches need to be retained, and the areas where they do not.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

1. What assessment he has made of the effect of the removal of the public sector pay cap in Scotland on the Barnett formula if that cap is retained in England.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Mr Speaker, I am sure you will join me in congratulating Jamie Murray in the mixed doubles and Gordon Reid in the wheelchair doubles for ensuring that we again had Scottish champions at Wimbledon, where your enthusiasm for tennis was in evidence once again.

The Barnett formula applies to changes in UK Government funding and will not be impacted by Scottish Government decisions on public sector pay.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

The Secretary of State’s constituents, and mine, have benefited from the Scottish National party Government’s ending of the public sector pay cap for their public sector workers in Scotland. The SNP tried to help public sector workers in England and throughout the UK by voting to end the UK public sector pay cap too. However, Scottish Tory MPs voted against helping workers in England. With the SNP helping workers in his constituency and mine, are he and his colleagues not ashamed of voting against removing the public sector pay cap in England to help workers there? What does he have against English workers?

[David Mundell]

From that question, Mr Speaker, you would not think that since 2007 the SNP Government in Scotland have been responsible for public sector pay and that a public sector pay cap has applied for most of that time. As far as I am aware, the SNP Government have not lifted the public sector pay freeze in Scotland; they have announced a consultation.

Debate on the Address

Angus Brendan MacNeil Excerpts

Wednesday 21st June 2017 Commons Chamber

[Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The Tory position on the single market and the customs union is clear: we are out of both. What is the Labour position on the single market and the customs union?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Again, our position has been absolutely clear. Our position is that we need tariff-free access to the European market to protect industries and jobs in this country. Let us have a little bit less from Conservative Members on the dangerous threat to turn Britain into a tax haven, which would threaten jobs and public services here far more than in mainland Europe.

We do not yet know the official title of the Government’s much-trumpeted great repeal Bill, but if we are talking about taking back control, Parliament must be able to scrutinise legislation. Thankfully, the thin gruel of this Gracious Speech allows plenty of time for longer debates and greater scrutiny. That must include ensuring that the Human Rights Act and our commitment to the European convention on human rights and the human rights of everyone in this country remain completely and totally intact. We will ensure that they do.

It is our determination that by working with devolved Administrations, responsibilities such as agriculture and fisheries will be devolved to those Administrations and not hoarded in Whitehall. On the subject of devolved Administrations, may I also wish the Prime Minister every success in reconvening talks with all parties to restore the Stormont Assembly in Belfast as soon as possible? We also very much hope that any done deal with the DUP in this place respects the overriding priority of the Good Friday agreement to maintain peace in Northern Ireland.

A state visit from the Spanish Head of State was announced for July, but can the Prime Minister update the House on whether she can still expect the United States’ Head of State to visit any time this year, or any time in the future? It is just a question.

As I said earlier, public service workers, such as fire service, police and NHS staff, receive huge praise when they respond to terrorist attacks and other major incidents, but it is not good enough to be grateful to our public service workers only at a moment of crisis and disaster. They deserve dignity—the dignity of fully funded services, and the dignity of not seeing their jobs cut and living standards fall. There are now 20,000 fewer police officers than there were when the Conservatives came into office in 2010. When the police raised this subject with the then Home Secretary, do you know what, Mr Speaker? She accused the police officers of crying wolf.

I hope the current Prime Minister will correct the mistakes of the former Home Secretary. The Gracious Speech promises the police and security services

“all the powers they need”,

but what they deserve and what the public demand is that they have all the resources they need.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Blackford]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hope that new Members will appreciate your sage advice.

There is an important point here. A failed Conservative candidate is being elevated to the House of Lords and standing down from his position in the European Parliament, and the Conservatives seem to want to appoint to the European Parliament someone who was fifth on their list. [Hon. Members: “They’re getting sued.”] They are getting sued by one of their own members. It is a very strange approach to democracy from the Scottish Conservatives.

Membership of the single market could not be more important for Scotland. It contains eight of our top 12 export destinations, supports 300,000 jobs in Scotland and contributes more than £11 billion to our economy. A hard Brexit would severely damage Scotland’s economic, social and cultural interests and hit jobs and living standards deeply and permanently. That is why we are determined to avoid it—and that is true for the United Kingdom as well.

The Prime Minister must now reflect on the fact that her party stood on a platform of a hard Brexit that has been roundly rejected by the electorate. There is no mandate for a hard Brexit. It is the Scottish Government’s compromise approach that has been endorsed by the Scottish Parliament and now by the people of Scotland as a manifesto commitment at the general election. My message to the Prime Minister is simple: it is time to listen. It is time to get back around the table with the devolved Governments of the United Kingdom and work out a compromise that works for all in the United Kingdom and avoids the devastating damage that a hard Brexit would cause.

[Angus Brendan MacNeil]

My hon. Friend will of course know that the Prime Minister is famous for her U-turns. She currently wants out of the single market and the customs union, but does he expect her to U-turn any time soon, before she takes the UK over a cliff edge? Scotland, of course, has its parachute for safety from the carnage that the Prime Minister is bringing.

[Ian Blackford]

I encourage the Prime Minister to listen. It is important that she reflects on what happened in the election. If she is prepared to do that, I would see it not as a U-turn, but as a Prime Minister beginning to show strong and stable leadership.

At the heart of the compromise must be continued membership of the single market. I gently suggest that Labour Members reflect on their position. Voters in Scotland will have sat aghast at the sight of a Labour shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, who is not in her place, who could not say whether she supported Scotland’s voice being heard in the Brexit negotiations. To capitulate to the Conservatives on the single market would be to sell out working families whose wages and prospects will be ultimately damaged by a hard Brexit. My challenge to Labour is to join the Scottish National party in seeking to get the single market back on the table as the best option—the only option—for protecting jobs, the economy and living standards.