Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The demeanour of the Solicitor-General is eccentric. I cannot account for how he performs in Her Majesty’s courts, but in the Chamber it would be helpful if he looked in the direction of the generality of Members.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

8. What recent discussions he has had with the Director of Public Prosecutions on the Crown Prosecution Service’s handling of criminal allegations against police.

[The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve)]

I agree that allegations against police officers must be taken very seriously, and I have had discussions with the Director of Public Prosecutions about the Crown Prosecution Service’s handling of criminal allegations against the police. Any such cases are handled, as with any other case, by CPS prosecutors, who are independent of the police, applying the code for Crown Prosecutors.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

As the Attorney-General knows, the case of Lynette White in south Wales, which involved bringing eight former South Wales police officers to court after 10 years on charges of perverting the course of justice, collapsed and is now the subject of two inquiries. Can he give us some idea of when they are likely to report?

[The Attorney-General]

I am afraid that I am not in a position to give the right hon. Lady those details, but I will see whether subsequently I can supply her with further information. I entirely agree that the case revealed some very worrying features indeed, and I can assure her that the Director of Public Prosecutions takes those aspects very seriously and wishes to get to the bottom of them. I have no doubt that we will be better informed when we have those reports.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to the air ambulance service, which does an amazing job in responding to emergencies, and saves many, many lives. We are providing £3 billion a year in tax reliefs for charities, of which gift aid makes up around £1 billion. We are increasing the amount on which charities are allowed to claim gift aid without the need for a declaration. That takes it up to £5,000, and I think that that will be a significant help to great charities such as the one my hon. Friend mentioned.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

When the disability Minister came to Wales last week, she said that it was for others to consider whether Remploy’s budgets should be devolved to Wales. I think, when she said “others”, she meant you, Prime Minister. The Welsh Government have already said that they are committed to supporting the Remploy workers in Wales. Will the Prime Minister therefore devolve the Remploy budgets for the Welsh factories for the next three years to ensure that all the factories that can have a future do have a future?

[The Prime Minister]

I will look carefully at the right hon. Lady’s proposal, because I know it is put forward in a constructive spirit. However, whether the decision is reserved or devolved, it does not mean that we do not have to take difficult decisions. The fact is that we asked the chief executive of Disability Rights UK to look at the issue, and the outcome she proposed is supported by Mencap, Mind, Disability Wales, Sense for Deafblind People and the Centre for Mental Health. The point is this: Government funding allows for half a billion pounds over five years for Remploy, but even that is not enough to keep those factories open, because although access to work awards are around £2,900 per disabled person, the cost of each job in Remploy is around £25,000 per person. Therefore, if the aim of policy is to use the money that we have to support disabled people into work, the right hon. Lady will understand why the review came to the decision that it did.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

7. What recent assessment he has made of the management and disclosure of evidence by the Crown Prosecution Service.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

9. What recent assessment he has made of the management and disclosure of evidence by the Crown Prosecution Service.

[The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)]

The effective management and disclosure of evidence relies on the proper discharge of duties and obligations by both the police and the prosecutor. Although there have been failures in a small number of cases, in the vast majority of cases the disclosure duties are carried out well.

As the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) will know, there is currently an inquiry into the Lynette White case in south Wales, more properly called the Crown v. Mouncher and others. The Independent Police Complaints Commission is carrying out a review of police conduct in that case, and the Director of Public Prosecutions has separately and additionally asked the inspectorate of the Crown Prosecution Service to carry out a review of the actions and decision making of the CPS in relation to disclosure in that case.

[The Solicitor-General]

It will not make an assessment until the two inquiries are completed.

[Ann Clwyd]

I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) has said: there is considerable shock at the conduct of this case, in south Wales and elsewhere. In the past, there have been a particularly high number of miscarriages of justice under the South Wales police force. Is the Attorney-General aware of any other similar cases in which the disappearance and re-emergence of key evidence has led to a retrial?

[The Solicitor-General]

Off the top of my head, I am not aware of any such cases, but the right hon. Lady is right to point out that the collapse of the Lynette White case in south Wales just recently, which affects her constituents and neighbours and those of the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith), is a matter of huge regret. It is now being subjected to two inquiries. Once they have been completed, further announcements will be made.

Public Confidence in the Media and Police

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I can reassure my hon. Friend about that. The terms of reference include the importance of a free press. I think that the panel, which includes people such as Shami Chakrabarti, George Jones, Elinor Goodman, a former press regulator and someone who has chaired the Financial Times, is a good mixture of experts to help advise Lord Justice Leveson to ensure that we get the balance right between appropriate legislation and—yes—a free and vibrant press.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Two years ago in this House, I made this point:

“Given Mr. Coulson’s dubious reputation, none of us on this side of the House can feel comfortable while he is around to wander the corridors here. While he is under suspicion, can we not at least take his pass away from him?”—[Official Report, 9 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 1137.]

His pass was not taken away from him, and he was able to wander freely around this place. Since the Prime Minister obviously cannot smell a rat when he has one in his midst, will he tell us whether he has any other dodgy characters in No. 10 that we should beware of?

[The Prime Minister]

I do not think it is worthy of the right hon. Lady to use terms like that. As I have said, I choose to judge people by the conduct of the work that they do for me. I would put Andy Coulson’s conduct at No. 10 Downing street against the conduct of Damian McBride, Alastair Campbell, Tom Baldwin and all the rest of them, who did so much damage under the previous Government.

Afghanistan

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question; perhaps I can adjudicate between the two poles in the House. The process must be Afghan led. We do not want a bad, tribal, poorly thought-through carve-up that will lead to future instability. Clearly, there must be a proper reconciliation process, but what I have seen—a timetable has perhaps assisted with this—is a very positive engagement from Afghanistan in Pakistan on their shared future. We can push, encourage and work with those two countries, but in the end they must make decisions together on how they will be more secure.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Everybody would welcome the fact that peace negotiations are seriously under way. May I ask the Prime Minister for assurances that the rights of women will not be sold down the river? Those rights have been hard fought for. We do not want to see women once again imprisoned in their homes, and children—girls—not allowed to go to school. Will he ask the President to include women in his negotiating team? Many women are fearful of what will happen in Afghanistan in future, and they deserve such assurances.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Lady makes a very good point. I would stress that prominent Afghan women are involved in that reconciliation process through the high peace council, which is run by former President Rabbani. Clearly, nobody wants a return to the days of the Talibanisation of Afghanistan, but we must accept that if we want a speedier end to the insurgency and long-term stability in Afghanistan, what President Karzai has referred to as his “lost cousins”—those who have lost their way—must be brought back into the body of Afghanistan. We found that fantastically difficult with Irish republican terrorists, but none the less, people who were previously committed to violence, maiming and bombing people are now sitting in government in Stormont. The same process must happen in Afghanistan, difficult though it is.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor-General]

I know that that is true not only in my hon. Friend’s constituency but throughout the rest of the country. It is important that the advisory services and family liaison staff are there to help those affected by such crimes of violence, whether they involve sexual or non-sexual assault, so that they can bring their evidence to court and the perpetrators can be convicted.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

6. Whether the Government plan to make additional resources available to the Director of Public Prosecutions to enable him to discharge the new responsibilities contained in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill to consider arrest warrants in war crimes cases.

[The Solicitor-General]

The Crown Prosecution Service currently anticipates that any additional responsibilities will be absorbed within current resources.

[Ann Clwyd]

The Solicitor-General will have read the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on this issue, which finds that the Government have not made their case and that they should think again. I find it particularly ironic that we are prepared to change the law to protect one Israeli opposition leader when another opposition leader, the Palestinian Sheikh Salah, comes here and is put straight in jail. Where is the justice in that?

[The Solicitor-General]

I appreciate the right hon. Lady’s interest in this aspect of public policy, and I also appreciate that she has firm opinions on the matter. She is fully entitled to those opinions. In short, the law was changed not in order to solve the problems of one individual but to deal with a public policy problem. She knows that really.

Libya and the Middle East

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend has made a good point. Obviously there needs to be a deeper conversation and greater planning between companies and the Government. Of course, companies have played an important role, but I feel that we need to ensure that we get this right for the future. Trying to bring people out of the desert across 20 or more platforms is extremely complicated, and I am sure that we can learn some lessons about how to do it better in future.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I think that we all wish to record our tremendous admiration for the courage and tenacity of the Libyan people—men, women and children—who are fighting the dictator with their bare hands. As for learning lessons, we should bear in mind what happened when a no-fly zone was provided for the Kurds of Iraq. That was John Major’s move, and it meant that thousands of Kurds were protected. Obviously there is not a great deal that we can do immediately, but we should consider that as a matter of great importance. I believe that it might save thousands of lives, if Gaddafi were to bomb his own people from the air.

[The Prime Minister]

The right hon. Lady always speaks about these issues with great passion. I think that she is right to draw attention to what people are doing in Libya, where they are showing extraordinary bravery. As we have seen across north Africa and the middle east, this is not an Islamist revolution but a people’s revolution. People want the sort of freedoms that we take for granted in this country.

I have to tell the right hon. Lady that introducing a no-fly zone is not without its difficulties and problems. Libya is an enormous country. We would be trying to cover a vast area, and a serious amount of military assets would be required to achieve that. Furthermore, it would not necessarily stop all oppression of the Libyan people, because there are ways of carrying that out other than through helicopter gunships and planes. However, I think that it is one thing that we need to look at urgently and plan for, in case we find—as we may well do—that Colonel Gaddafi is taking further appalling steps to oppress his people. That is why the conversations are taking place today.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

This Government do not believe that people should be able to share content unlawfully, but we are disappointed that the industry has not made faster progress towards adapting its business models to meet consumer demand. I agree with my hon. Friend that there are legitimate concerns about the workability of some aspects of the Digital Economy Act. The Government are looking actively at those questions now, and we will make an announcement in due course.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

May I suggest to the Deputy Prime Minister that the reputation of this House is being maligned during the debate on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill? That is because Front-Bench spokespersons for the coalition have continually said that we are not interested in the Bill in this place, and that we could have debated the amendments that the Lords are debating at the moment. That is simply untrue. I was one of 20 Members who was standing during the debate in Committee on the Welsh constituency boundaries, and we were not called to speak. So it is simply not true to say that people in this House are not interested in the excellent discussion that is taking place up the corridor.

[The Deputy Prime Minister]

I wonder whether the right hon. Lady would characterise the debate taking place in the other place as “excellent” if she were to have a look at the foot-dragging that is now taking place on the Labour Benches there. I am sorry if she was not called to speak during the debate on the Bill when it passed through this place, but, as she knows, there were eight full days of debate on the Bill, which was subject to the fullest possible scrutiny.

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on his excellent speech and on the way in which he introduced the debate. I hope that he continues throughout his life in Parliament to feel as much affection for all hon. Members as he expressed today, although I doubt that that will continue as time goes on. However, I appreciated the opening words of his speech.

I had my whinge last time round when we had the first debate in Westminster Hall. I also got very angry, and I still feel angry that, because of the activities of a few Members in the past, we have all been smeared. We continue to be smeared by the belief that we are all crooks, and after 26 years in Parliament I resent that immensely. We all found during the general election campaign that whether we had done something or not, we were all considered to be crooks. Someone came up to me during the campaign and shouted, “Thief!” If I had been a man, I would have run after him and punched him in the face, because I feel about this so strongly. I am not a thief and I have never been a thief. I object to Members being considered as thieves, because the vast majority of people in this place are nothing of the sort, and it is not right that we have been smeared by the activities of a few.

A member of my staff uses the online expenses system to fill in the forms on my behalf. I had not thought of the idea of one of my colleagues, who told IPSA that his finger was in plaster and he was unlikely to be taking it out of plaster, which meant that IPSA officials had to go to his office to fill in expense claims on his behalf. I wanted to look at the problems as dispassionately as possible, so I asked my member of staff about his experiences and to outline the difficulties he had encountered. He said:

“Although after the MPs expenses fiasco there was a genuine desire to create a new and more transparent system to pay Members’ expenses, I do not think the system put in place by IPSA is the best alternative”—

he was also aware of the previous system. He continued:

“The new system is in no way more transparent than the system it replaced, the main difference is that rather than submit paper claims Members must now submit them online. It seems as though rather than looking for a simple solution”—

several colleagues have suggested such a solution today—

“(such as daily allowances or issuing credit cards to Members for their expenses) an expensive all consuming bureaucratic monster has been created.”

Several issues have arisen after six months of the new system. Inevitably, Members allow their staff to fill out and submit claims forms on their behalf. The previous system did not allow anyone except the Member to sign the forms before they were submitted, but the new system places a lot of trust in the hands of a non-elected proxy. The way in which the travel card statement is sent to the proxy’s IPSA account, not to Members, is very time consuming and confusing. The Member travel card has the potential to simplify the way in which Members claim, but the way in which it operates only adds to the problems of the online system.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend also recognise that the new travel card system is far more complicated than the old system? Under the old system, we had a statement once a month that we had to go through to check that the information was correct. We then ticked it and signed it ourselves before sending it back. Under the present system, we have to provide the information in paper form and then put it back online, as well as sending in the individual rail tickets. Frankly, that is complete nonsense.

[Ann Clwyd]

I thank my hon. Friend. That is a very good point.

During the first few months of the new system’s operation, Members faced huge delays in getting any claims reimbursed. They accumulated large amounts of debt at the beginning of a new Parliament, and a great deal of time and manpower has been spent trying to balance the books ever since. This unnecessarily takes time away from other parliamentary duties, as has been pointed out. During the past six months, IPSA has twice lost or not received the receipts we have sent in the post. IPSA is adamant that all claims must be accompanied by original receipts, but no contingency plan has been put in place to deal with lost receipts. The old system allowed Members to send in photocopies of receipts, while we filed the originals for our own records. Members are now at risk if they do not take photocopies of all receipts before sending them to IPSA.

Communicating with or contacting IPSA is not easy. There is only one general phone number and e-mail address for Members to contact. We have all been put on hold for more than 45 minutes while waiting to discuss issues with IPSA staff and, due to a lack of replies, we have all but given up trying to contact IPSA via e-mail.

I am sure that there would have been many more Members here today if they were not still fearful of the press. We all know that whatever we say here today will be picked up and used in one way or another. Some Members who would have liked to be here to make similar points to the ones we are making are not here because of a certain amount of fear. It is ridiculous that elected Members of Parliament, who often have to stand up for their constituents, find it difficult to stand up for themselves.

[Mr Winnick]

It is quite possible that new Members fear the local press in particular, and worry that it might say that the moment that they are elected, they start complaining. Is there not therefore a greater responsibility on those of us who have been here some time to make this case today?

[Ann Clwyd]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, and I am glad that so many of us are here to make that case.

As a former journalist, I have been quite surprised at the many leaks that have appeared in the press on matters concerning MPs’ discussions with IPSA and what they have sent into IPSA. A headline in The Times yesterday read “Carry on claiming; MPs are already flouting new rules on expenses”. The article went on to give details. Now, I admire good journalists, and well done to them for getting the story, but how did they get it unless somebody at IPSA leaked it to them? This morning, a colleague told me that they had been talking to a member of the press who had been offered information by somebody at IPSA on certain “juicy” bits that had not yet emerged in the press about what certain Members had claimed for. The story in The Times said that one MP had had a claim for £338 for a shredder refused. Why on earth was he refused that for a shredder? We all use shredders; we often have to shred correspondence, for example. But that is not the point. How on earth did the newspaper get that story in the first place?

I have been told an allegation that I cannot personally prove, but the information has been given to me on very good authority. I make the allegation because it is doing the rounds—I apologise to the person about whom the allegation is made if it is not true, and she might like to deny it during the course of the day—and it is that the information is coming from the Director of Communications at IPSA, Anne Power. She can either refute that or, if it is the case, agree that it is true. I have every reason to believe my source and that that is the case. There must be an answer to why, every time we have a debate on IPSA, an anti-MP story appears the day before. The information must come from the only people with that knowledge, and that must be the people at IPSA. Today, they must deny or otherwise admit that that person has offered that information to a member of the press.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the message has not got out that MPs have behaved completely properly. That is why I thought it helpful to announce it on the Floor of the House, not that that will get it into the newspapers, as we know. However, I thought it worth putting it on the record that IPSA has acknowledged that MPs have behaved properly.

It is not my job to speak for IPSA, but as the hon. Gentleman has asked me about this point, and as it was raised by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) earlier, it may encourage hon. Members to know that IPSA has been following the progress of this debate very closely. It heard the right hon. Lady’s comments and has categorically denied them. It has confirmed that the information in The Times was obtained through an FOI request, not from a leak.

[Ann Clwyd]

I, too, have seen what IPSA has said in response, but it did not respond to the point that I made. I said:

“This morning, a colleague told me that they had been talking to a member of the press who had been offered information by somebody at IPSA on certain ‘juicy’ bits that had not yet emerged in the press about what certain Members had claimed for.”

I invited the person whom I named to answer that point. That person has not answered and I suggest that the statement put out by Sir Ian Kennedy does not answer the allegation that I made.

[Mr Harper]

I have heard that clearly, but as the right hon. Lady knows, IPSA is independent. It will have heard what she has said, and I am sure that it will respond in due course.

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill

Ann Clwyd Excerpts

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Commons Chamber

Although I agree in principle with those changes, it would have been ridiculous to have lost 10 Assembly Members from the National Assembly because of a change in the rules at Westminster. That was an obvious weakness in the Government of Wales Act 2006. Although the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill contained only one Welsh clause, no time was given in this place for proper discussions.

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

Despite the fact that the majority of Welsh MPs asked for a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee, which was set up for such a purpose, the Secretary of State for Wales refused that request. Why does the hon. Gentleman think that is?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The right hon. Lady knows that I am in full agreement with her. It was very important that those issues were discussed. It was a disgrace that the Secretary of State refused that request.