Israel and Palestine

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, knows much more about this than I do; I feel like I am in my introductory day at the Foreign Office, trying to work out difficult questions. He may have a point; it is an interesting point on the legality. De facto, Israel can prevent the operation of that consulate, which is why we are endeavouring to ensure that the consulate’s functions will be provided in another way.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, can the noble Lord give us some examples of where the Palestinians have accepted a two-state solution? Israel has accepted it. As a British Jew, I would welcome it. The Government must know—if they do not, they should, I hope, take note—that the Jews in this country have felt under attack and under pressure from the double standards that seem to be applied to the only Jewish state in the world, which is surrounded by enemies and trying to defend itself, while the Palestinian Authority is getting aid and still supports the “pay for slay” policy. Will the Minister please explain how these double standards can be acceptable?

[Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question; she has great interest and expertise in this issue. The two-state solution is expected on all parties—Palestinians and Israelis. It is something we expect the leaders of the Palestinian Authority and of Israel to support, and we want their actions to match their commitment. On both sides, symmetrically, where actions fall short, we will take action with our foreign policy.

Prime Minister: Meeting with Prime Minister of Canada

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Wednesday 12th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Canada is a very close ally of the UK in defence, security and intelligence. I am sure that, when the Prime Minister meets Mark Carney, they will discuss in some depth the issues that my noble friend raises since, as many noble Lords have mentioned, this relationship is now more important than ever.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

Canada and Canadians feel more alone than ever right now. Does the Minister agree that Canada is not just a friend or ally but part of a family that we are supposed to belong to? The President of the United States has used, if you will forgive the expression, trumped-up charges—completely specious reasons—for imposing these tariffs on Canada. That country is under attack. Talking to people in Canada, it seems there is a real risk that they feel abandoned by us. They may be considering abolishing ties with the monarchy and even leaving the Commonwealth. What are we and our Commonwealth partners doing to support Canada when it is under such attack?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are close friends, allies and family members inside the Commonwealth with Canada, as the noble Baroness quite rightly reminds us. That closeness is unshakable. It is for the people of Canada to decide what they wish to do in terms of their sovereignty and all those issues, and we respect that, but there is no need for Canada to feel isolated. It will always have a strong friend, ally and family member in the United Kingdom.

Gaza: Healthcare System Support

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. I have huge respect for the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, and I thank her for calling this debate. My heart goes out to all those suffering—Palestinians and Israelis—following the Hamas massacre. Hamas cynically exploits hospitals and healthcare, inviting attack by firing on Israel from those facilities. Hamas has turned hospitals into terror command centres. It has used them to hide hostages and terrorists. Hamas terrorists themselves go round disguised as women, even holding children. They are deliberately disguising themselves as patients and doctors and travelling in ambulances. They are callously putting ordinary Palestinians in harm’s way.

The protections for hospitals and healthcare are not unconditional, but the Palestinian Hamas terrorists cynically exploit international sympathy. I join in sympathy for those impacted. Article 8.2 of the Rome statute prohibits intentionally directing attacks against hospitals, provided they are not military objectives—but they have become so.

The December actions at Kamal Adwan Hospital found large terrorist operations there. Some 240 Hamas, PIJ and other operatives were caught, and 19 terrorists were killed. Even then, many tried to pose as patients and flee. This is the same in other hospitals that Israel has attacked, and it has set up its own. Notwithstanding all of this, Israel has provided fuel and medical supplies. It has even run a vaccination campaign for diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, hep B and polio—hardly genocidal intent.

I pray for peace, and I pray for a relief for the Palestinians and Israelis.

Israel and Gaza

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of international law and the role that the ICC has played. We have seen this in areas such as Russia and Ukraine. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, articulated, it allows a pre-trial process to be followed and it is important that that process is now undertaken. Many have expressed their personal perspectives on that, but when it comes to legal processes, less is more. Let the ICC get on with its process. There will be an opportunity to discuss it further at an appropriate time.

It is very clear that we continue to engage with Israel as a constructive partner. There are those in Israel who recognise the same credible, irreversible pathway to the two-state solution. On recognition, I have articulated the United Kingdom’s position. We will continue to work constructively with Israelis and Palestinians, and do so in quite a dynamic fashion, between my noble friend the Foreign Secretary’s engagements and my own. We have been working in tandem on this.

The noble Baroness mentioned a mountain, the top of which will never be reached. If there is one commodity one must have in abundance when it comes to public service, it is to never give up on hope.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I commend my noble friend for his support for the two-state solution, which I share. Israel has sought to live in peace with its neighbours. For the last few decades, it has offered a two-state solution and every time the Palestinians have rejected it. Israel has withdrawn from territory to make peace with Egypt and Jordan. It has given back Gaza unilaterally and withdrawn from the settlements. It is willing to do so in exchange for peace.

Meanwhile, we have recently seen the Palestinians using Gaza to attack Israel. The Hamas leaders of the Palestinians have hijacked the aid that is going in. They are making threats against America for building a pier to distribute aid. They have targeted and attacked the crossings, killing Israeli soldiers who were trying to facilitate the aid. Can my noble friend tell us what evidence there is of the Palestinians or their leaders actually wanting to live in peace with the State of Israel, or taking care to avoid the deaths of their own civilians?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My noble friend raises some very important points. To achieve peace, you need to have partners for peace. It is very clear that Hamas is not a partner for peace.

From engaging with people who have left Gaza, it is my opinion that Hamas has not done the Palestinians any favours. It is abundantly clear it has not put any security or protection in place for the people of Gaza. That is why we have been consistent that Hamas cannot be the governing authority in Gaza.

We also need to ensure that Israel comes to the diplomatic table. My noble friend is correct that peace agreements have been signed with Jordan and Egypt, but there are further chapters in that process with Bahrain, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates. There is talk of normalisation with the wider Gulf region. These are important elements, and, ultimately, that is what we strive to achieve. I agree with my noble friend about the recent appointment of a new Prime Minister in the Palestinian Authority, with whom we are engaging. We also need the Palestinian Authority to mitigate the previous issues that have arisen with the Palestinian leadership, to ensure that there is an inclusive approach and that, when direct discussions begin, both parties are committed to the notion of peace, stability and security. That should remain the aim of any Government.

Foreign Affairs

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Desai. I shall focus on two important allies, Ukraine and Israel, which are battling forces intent on undermining the democracy and protections on which our way of life depends. I commend and congratulate my noble friends Lord Ahmad and Lord Cameron—who I am delighted to see return to government—on the Front Bench, on our country’s strong support for both our allies.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, encapsulated ideally all the reasons that I would mention for why we must not waiver in our support for Ukraine, and even why we should step up the further support that is essential so that Russia does not prevail. Ukraine is fighting on the front line for western European democracy, especially after the appalling death of Alexei Navalny, to whom I pay the highest tribute. We must stand firm.

Today marks 150 days that the Palestinians have been holding the Israeli hostages, with no Red Cross access despite promises of such during the last humanitarian pause and no willingness even to confirm who is alive. This is the other major threat to our national security and our democratic norms, as is demonstrated by the reaction to the murderous, barbarous Hamas attacks on Israel. Islamist fanatics and threats have been excused or appeased. The western pull-out from Afghanistan may have emboldened the Taliban ideologues seeking to establish a caliphate. Iran and its satellites in Syria, Yemen and Gaza are determined to spread their hate across the western world and undermine our security. Turning a blind eye to Iran’s preaching of medieval jihad as it has slowly taken over these countries—now extending to Gaza, as we see—is a threat to us all.

UNRWA has held a mandate for education and social care for the Palestinian people. However, it has actually engaged in an extreme form of child abuse. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, in all that she has said to call out the problems created by UNRWA. In UNRWA schools, there is glorification of jihad. The teaching materials encourage violence and martyrdom, and the content promotes anti-Semitism and the demonisation and delegitimisation of Israel, making the Jewish state full of subhumans. It is part of the problem, and UNRWA should be replaced. Glorifying martyrdom as an essential part of the Islamic faith should not be accepted or tolerated. Hamas and the Palestinian Authority’s stated aims are the eradication of the Jewish state.

Recognition of a two-state solution while such indoctrination persists and Palestinian leaders refuse to accept Israel’s very existence would be a reward for murder, terror, rape and hostage-taking and an indication, I fear, of western weakness in the face of threats that require strong, determined support for those who believe in our own values. Support for Hamas and the Palestinian terrorists, calls for a ceasefire and chants of “from the river to the sea” amount to support for terrorism and ideological hatred. They amount to anti- Semitism.

In particular, I am exercised by the sexual violence that is being excused. There is no excuse for rape, wanton assault and torture of Israeli women and children. Rape is not resistance. Hamas filmed and glorified its pogrom and violation of Jewish women, yet western supporters here and in other countries ignore this. Sisters Uncut claimed that reports of Hamas sex attacks amounted to Islamophobia and racist weaponisation of sexual violence. Women’s groups that rail against such attacks on all other women have stayed silent. It seems it is #MeToo unless you are a Jew.

Western leaders fail to recognise, at our peril, what a major challenge the current wars in Ukraine and Israel and Gaza pose to the enlightened values we claim to hold dear. I urge my noble friends to stand firm on the right side of history against the forces of anti-Semitism and anti-democracy.

Environmental Policies: Timeliness and Effectiveness

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

When we came into government, we knew about 10% of the sewage outflows from water companies into rivers. We now know 100%, because we require them to report them. Technology is our friend here: we are able to use telemetry, which can now do the work of hundreds of people in real time, producing a message to a phone requiring an instant response. I think we are much better equipped to deal with it. Is it perfect? No.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government and my noble friend, who I know is passionate about protecting the environment and the need to do so. I support his claim that this is the most environmentally friendly Government we have had. Before 2010, no Government took this matter particularly seriously. However, will he take on board some of the issues that have been noted about resourcing, particularly of the Environment Agency? It is apparently not attending all the sewage outflows, so it could well be that significant numbers are happening without us knowing. Will he take the issue of resourcing back to the department?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. In my absolute belief in what we have achieved over the last decade and a bit, I am absolutely not complacent—none of us is. The OEP’s report is really important. We set up the OEP to hold this Government and future Governments to account on this. On the issue my noble friend raises, we have increased the number of Environment Agency officers who should and must respond to all such reports. On water quality as a whole, we have put in place, through our plan for water, the most comprehensive list of measures possible to make sure that not only water companies but farmers, home owners and others who are responsible for the quality of the water in our rivers are held to account when they get it wrong.

Israel/Gaza

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his opening remarks and all noble Lords who have spoken. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Oates. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury. I declare my interests as a British Jew, an adviser to the Chief Rabbinate Trust and a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel and the Jewish Leadership Council.

Every day I grieve for the suffering and death of Israelis and Palestinians, and I pray for the hostages. Hamas murder squads, claiming to represent the Palestinian people, invaded Israel with the express purpose of killing, torturing or kidnapping civilians. I never would have believed that we would witness a pogrom against Jews in my lifetime. My family was nearly all wiped out by anti-Semitic hatred in the 1930s and 1940s. To then witness these murders being supported, celebrated and glorified by Palestinians in Gaza and their supporters around the globe has shaken me to the core. “Why?” I ask myself again and again. Do these Hamas terrorists really have the support of the Palestinian or Arab majority? They were elected, and opinion polls suggest they may still have support.

Those who glorify Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hizb ut-Tahrir and their ilk are a threat not just to Israel or to Jews but to all of us, as my noble friend Lord Harrington said. Israel has always wanted to live in peace with its neighbours, but a first step to achieving that must be to have a partner on the Palestinian side wanting the same. Peace is a duet, not a solo.

As my noble friend Lord Leigh said, Israel left Gaza, dismantled the settlements and wanted the Palestinians to have a prosperous future, and all it has received in return is terror. If the Palestinian people do not really support the actions of Hamas but are frightened to speak up, as ordinary Germans were in the 1930s while the Nazis increasingly threatened Jews, Israel must have the courage to rid them of Hamas once and for all. If Hamas really does have majority support, Israel must anyway destroy further Hamas threats and help the Palestinian people recognise that extremism brings only misery, not a better life.

Israel and Jews are not the Palestinian people’s enemies, but what can Israel do to achieve peace? Since 7 October, there are those who defend Hamas actions or even blame Israel. As the noble Lord, Lord Austin, said, we are already seeing frightening disinformation, such as videos denying survivors’ accounts.

Israel is the only Jewish state. It has known nothing but rejection by most of its Arab neighbours since its inception, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, explained. As long as Israel’s right to exist is not accepted, what can it do but keep defending itself? If Hamas continues to fire missiles aimed at Israel’s civilians from sites among, next to or directly underneath its own children, what else can Israel do other than warn civilians to leave and then do what it must to stop the attacks, dismantle the rockets and show its people that Jews will not submit to torture and murder, as millions did in the Nazi horrors?

Jews yearn for peace; we pray for it every day. Jews have accepted being expelled from Arab countries where their families had lived for centuries, and have settled elsewhere. This is a bleak time for us as Jews. Are our children safe on our streets, in our universities and in other western countries, as the plague of anti-Semitism has resurfaced? Support for Hamas and Palestinian fighters is a threat to us all, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, said—not just Jews. If Islamic extremists are not defeated, we are all in danger. If brutal oppression succeeds in eradicating Israel, the only westernised democracy, and, as others have said, if Russia succeeds in defeating Ukraine, our way or life, our freedoms and our values are all in peril.

Hamas has never honoured international humanitarian law. If Israel cannot protect its citizens by ridding Gaza of the Hamas rockets—made, by the way, with some of the water pipes provided for Gazans by western aid—a new standard for horrific assaults against Jews is established in our time. International commentators already seemingly consider the repeated rocket barrages from Gaza into Israel as somehow acceptable, on the apparent justification that its Iron Dome can shoot them down, even though civilians are still killed.

This cannot persist. Decades of wishful thinking that Hamas’s charter calling to kill Jews is just rhetoric has been a delusion. The Palestinian leadership is anti-Semitic: Mahmoud Abbas has repeated anti-Semitic canards and blamed the Jews for the Holocaust because of, apparently, their social role. He rewards Palestinian terrorists for attacking Israelis. They just want Israel to disappear. Well, Israel cannot disappear. Jews have no other homeland. Israel must defend its civilians against missile attacks and targeted torture.

I pray for all in the region, but I have no doubt that Israel must and will do its utmost to pave the way for a peaceful two-state solution. Am Yisrael Chai—may Israel and its people live.

Afghanistan: Women

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind remarks. This policy is draconian and has no basis in any society, and that includes the Islamic world; that has to be made clear. I assure her that it is not just the Islamic world that we have engaged with, but there has to be a particular focus there.

The Taliban have not budged an inch; if anything, they have gone into more aggressive and abhorrent territory. We have seen the ban on girls’ education, along with the recent ban on women’s participation in NGOs. At the moment they have not gone further than that, but the situation on the ground is very challenging and testing. We are of course working with the UN and with international partners, including the likes of the United States and the European Union. It is important that we send a comprehensive, multilateral message to the Taliban that their actions will be taken very seriously.

As I am being candid, although I think we will not see the Taliban pulling back any time soon, I think the importance of delivering humanitarian aid and of women’s health and education should be paramount, and we need to look at practical solutions. In that, the Islamic world is going to be key.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I commend my noble friend on all the work he is doing in this area. I know how dedicated he is to trying to make improvements wherever he can. Will he join me in commending also the bravery of many of the women across the Middle East, and in other parts of the world, who are standing up and trying to protect the rights of women in those countries?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I absolutely join my noble friend in that. It is important that we see the representation of women across all parts of the world, including the Islamic world, coming to the fore. I am very much encouraged by seeing Ministers being appointed in Qatar and, more recently, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It is important that their message is delivered as well, because their sheer presence demonstrably shows that the erroneous interpretation and narrative of the Taliban is fundamentally flawed—it is wrong.

Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol: Scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals (European Affairs Committee Sub-Committee Report)

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Friday 20th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jay, for his diplomatic handling of his remit and his excellent introduction to today’s debate. The fact that unionists, Brexiteers and remainers have all paid tribute is a testament to his skills.

Of course, the hard Brexit chosen and the Northern Ireland protocol agreement signed must entail a democratic deficit; that is agreed by all now. Practical suggestions have been proposed by, among others, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister could respond as to whether his Government will take any of those suggestions forward.

The democratic deficit is of serious concern. There was insufficient consultation and approval from all Northern Ireland parties before finalising the arrangements for our future relationship with the EU. Northern Ireland was never going suddenly to attach itself geographically to the rest of Great Britain and suddenly magically separate itself from the single market and the EU. There was always going to be a need for practical arrangements of some kind, or regulatory alignment. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has proposed some equally practical suggestions for giving Northern Ireland a voice. Will my noble friend consider taking any of those forward?

The answer to the democratic deficit must not just be to replace our country’s vital parliamentary checks and balances by ministerial diktats, which override and break the agreement that our own Government signed. Of course, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, is right that perhaps we should never have signed it, but sign it we did—we are where we are. It feels as if the Government are still not taking seriously the implications of the actual agreements that they have signed with the EU.

Can I ask my noble friend to please answer the question raised by the committee and by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, today about whether the Government are keeping a single log of all cases of regulatory divergence arising from EU and UK legislative changes since the Northern Ireland protocol came into force? Will they publish this, since that is surely essential for future arrangements?

My noble friend Lord Lamont stated that Brexit did not require dynamic alignment. That is true, but it is not as a consequence of EU unwillingness to adopt alternative arrangements that we are where we are. My noble friend Lord Hannan suggested, for example, that there be no checks at all. I must respectfully disagree. Does my noble friend the Minister agree with our noble friends on this? If so, why did our Government sign the protocol, which requires that to happen? What are the other arrangements that could or should have been conceded?

The single markets lies at the very heart of the EU. When our then Prime Minister signed the withdrawal agreement and the protocol, how did he believe that it could fulfil the requirements of the Good Friday agreement and meet the demands of all parties? The fact that, immediately after signing that there would be a border in the Irish Sea, he declared that no customs checks would be required does not change the reality. Was the plan to use Northern Ireland as a Trojan horse to gain favoured access from the mainland to the single market? I cannot say. In the meantime, however, can my noble friend update the House on talks that are going on with the EU on the Northern Ireland protocol?

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Baroness Altmann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to ask my noble friend the Minister what discussions there have been with the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments as to the process that will be used if these regulations are brought forward.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 36 and 38 for the reasons that have been so eloquently set out already—I do not think that I need to repeat them. The idea that Parliament is passing a law to allow a Minister to do whatever he likes without coming back to Parliament seems to be quite breathtaking. That is nothing to do necessarily with Northern Ireland or Brexit; that is to do with our parliamentary democracy. On the question of whether Clause 18 should stand part of the Bill, I would certainly support its removal.

I confess that I find it difficult to accept that just changing “appropriate” to “necessary” will actually sort out the problem that is inherent in so many of the measures in this Bill, because a Minister could easily just say that they are doing it because they think it “necessary”. Who is going to be able to challenge that? The law would still be changed.

I support the idea put forward by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, of at least having approval from the Northern Ireland Assembly. This would once again be an example of the British Government doing something with Northern Ireland, rather than to Northern Ireland—as the current wording would imply.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, who highlights quite clearly the central proposition in Amendment 38, tabled in my name and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. It is about limiting the control of Ministers under the Bill by ensuring that the Northern Ireland Assembly is given necessary approval of the conduct in relation to the provisions within the Bill.

Amendment 38 seeks to amend Clause 18, “Other Ministerial powers”, to ensure a limitation of delegated powers to Ministers—the very issue that was discussed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee—and to ensure that

“the exercise of the Minister’s power to engage in conduct in relation to any matter dealt with in the Northern Ireland Protocol that is not otherwise authorised by the Act to a motion approving the conduct in the Northern Ireland Assembly.”

It throws up the accountability issues relating to the Northern Ireland Assembly—I hope that all the institutions will be up and running eventually—and would ensure that devolved regions and nations have particular control in relation to this issue.

It is worth noting that there were two important developments in the long road of the protocol. Today, the Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, and the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, met in the margins of the climate conference in Egypt and agreed to work together to end the turmoil in relation to the protocol. Also today, at the meeting of the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly in this building, Vice-President Šefčovič said that if this Bill were to become law, the UK Government would put Northern Ireland’s unique access to the EU market of 450 million customers at risk.

I again urge the Government to put this Bill into cold storage and ensure that there is renewed political vigour given to the negotiations. It is only through joint negotiations that all the issues around the protocol in relation to east-west issues and to trade between GB and Northern Ireland can be satisfactorily resolved to the benefit of all businesses and people in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for sidestepping the question by saying that he does not need to answer it because there is an article in the protocol that means you do not have to answer on what happens when there is a conflict between two international obligations. Clearly, however, the Government and many noble Lords from the Province who have spoken think that there is a conflict and it cannot be solved just by invoking Article 16. If it can, fine; that is wonderful.

The other related question that we have not had a response to is the point made by the Lord Chancellor in the other place that Article 1 of the protocol specifically says that in the event of a conflict between the Belfast agreement and the protocol, the Belfast agreement takes precedence. I have not heard any response to that, nor to the point, which I might be alone in making, that the whole protocol is intrinsically temporary. We know that because the EU told us that it could not enter into a permanent relationship with us because we were then a member state and it could not, under Article 50, enter into a permanent relationship with a member state; it could be only temporary and transitional. That is why the protocol itself contains provision for it to be superseded, but I have heard no response to that point from anyone.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I heard the responses given to my noble friend so far, which he seems reluctant to accept. If he does not agree that the Article 16 process would be a way of resolving some of these conflicts that have arisen and caused problems, in what way does he feel that the passage of the Bill would itself resolve those conflicts, or indeed support the Good Friday agreement?

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

I certainly do not say absolutely that Article 16 is not the way to proceed, but I have spoken to lawyers much respected by people in this House—unfortunately I do not have their permission to give their names—who told me that we should not go down the Article 16 route because it would be a nightmare.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

We support the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness. In supporting it, I want to make two points. First, this clause effectively turns the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act principles on their head. We have well-established mechanisms, which are set down in statute, on how we approve new international agreements. If this is a mechanism to replace the Northern Ireland protocol, an internationally made agreement, with a new agreement, then why is the CRaG process, which allows parliamentary scrutiny, debate and, unlike this, an ability to have enhanced approvals or indeed vetoing by Parliament, not going to be the route for it? I do not understand why.

Secondly, it also sets on its head every commitment that has been provided for every trade agreement: namely, that if a trade agreement requires any primary legislation to bring it into effect in domestic law, primary legislation is brought forward—this is not done by regulation. But, again, this is being set on its head. The Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Bill is coming up, which is primary legislation—not regulation —implemented with agreement. The two Bills contradict each other really quite glaringly.

I think that this is significant because of an interaction I had with the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, on one of the previous days in Committee. I asked him whether he had given consideration—if there is, as a result of these talks, an agreement with the EU—as to how that should be put in force. The Government are saying “by regulations”, which are unamendable and could even be under a negative process; they could use Clause 19 to do this. If the noble Lord’s concern—as well as that of the noble Lord, Lord Empey—was about the need for consent, this is not the means by which that would be secured. Yet this is the means by which the Government could enforce it. There is a very jarring comparison between what consent of any new agreement would be and how the Government are seeking powers under Clause 19 to enable them to put this into force. Clause 19 should not be the mechanism by which we have sustainable support for any agreement. An order-making power for a Minister is simply not the route—and that is in addition to the fact that they are turning on their heads long-standing practices by which we put international agreements into domestic legislation. For this reason, I do not think that Clause 19 should stand part of the Bill.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I speak briefly to support Clause 19 not standing part of the Bill. Both the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, and the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, have very eloquently explained some of the problems with this clause. Equally, I have a concern about just changing the word “appropriate” to “necessary”, because we had a relevant agreement with the EU—the withdrawal agreement, part of which is the Northern Ireland protocol—and we have passed extensive legislation for that agreement. Yet government Ministers consider both this Bill and this clause “necessary”, even though it may break international law and may tear up the agreement that we have enshrined into our law. So were this clause to stay—and, indeed, were this Bill to become an Act—there would simply be the possibility that a Minister would no longer need to come to Parliament, Parliament would have no say and our whole parliamentary democracy would be turned on its head, as the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, described. I would like to hear from my noble friend the Minister how this is consistent with our normal constitutional safeguards in our democracy.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this brief debate. I turn first to Amendment 39. I welcome the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman; I was scribbling down some of them, including the phrase, “Cheerleader for the Government”—we look forward to that. I recognise that these are serious times in terms of our negotiations. Of course, it is right that we are being challenged, but contributions have also been made which are helpful in ultimately strengthening the role we want to see for all discussions: a successful conclusion in the interests of all communities in Northern Ireland.