Environment Bill

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

We appear not to have the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support the messages being delivered in this group of amendments. Above all, I support the stand part question opposing Clause 24, to which I would have added my name if there had been room. I strongly support the powerful speeches given on it by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and—as ever—the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, with his great experience on this matter.

My basic position is that I would support any amendment which reduced the influence of Defra and its Secretary of State on the workings of the OEP. I know that sounds harsh, and I repeat my point that this does not denote any mistrust of the current officials in Defra, and certainly not its Secretary of State or Ministers. However, we have to ensure that the workings of the OEP over decades to come, as stressed by many, are completely independent of the bodies on which it is supposed to keep a watchful eye. That definitely includes Defra and its wider family. It must be independent and be seen to be independent, so the idea that the Secretary of State of Defra should be giving guidance to the OEP on how it exercises its enforcement policies must be wrong. I have yet to meet anyone who, in their heart of hearts, does not agree with that statement, with the perhaps unique exception of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who gave the impression of not having listened very closely to the previous debates.

Our whole constitution is based on checks and balances, yet what we have here is the equivalent of the potential accused being able to influence the operation of the Crown Prosecution Service. This must be very wrong. It would be a travesty of proper governance if Clause 24 were to remain in the Bill.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Thank you, Deputy Chairman. My Lords, I offer support for all these amendments, but particularly on whether Clause 24 should stand part. Opposing it is the obvious way forward here. I want to pick up on the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, who was not entirely consistent in suggesting that we should not worry about how the Bill was structured because there is a strong person as the first head of the OEP, Dame Glenys Stacey. However, then she said, “But we don’t want it too independent because then it might get too strong and dynamic, and take too much control”. That really highlighted the issue.

Many people are saying “Isn’t it great that we have that person as the first chair of the OEP?”, but structures should not depend on individuals. Those individuals change; they go to different places as roles change over time. Often when we talk about what is in the Bill the Government tell us, “Trust us, we don’t have any ill intentions”, but the point is not who the current Minister is or what the Government of the moment’s intentions are. We are setting up something new and important here, which is likely to continue for decades. We are talking here about the environmental review process and the OEP being able to state what the remedies for that are. There has been a lot of talk about carrots and sticks, and soft and hard powers. These things are really quite subtle and need to be used with great independence to have real force over long periods.

We have heard a lot of comparisons with other government bodies, such as the National Audit Office, the Electoral Commission and the Office for Budget Responsibility, all of which have stronger levels of independence. They have real independence from Ministers and departmental structures. It is quite telling that two of them are financial structures. When we talk about spending money, we have to have some independent oversight of that; but when we talk about the environment, somehow it is good enough to leave it with Ministers and the Government. It is a question of what we regard as important and what we really value and guard. That is what we are looking for.

I think it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who quoted the Secretary of State as saying, “If we do not have these controls, there is a risk of making it up as it goes along.” Surely that is the point. The OEP needs to create new structures, not to be directed by the Minister in those structures.

The noble Lord, Lord Curry, speaking just before the break, asked a very important question: what is the point of having guidance if there is no impact? We are being told that the Minister can provide some advice, some offering, but if that is not going to have an impact, why does it need to be in the Bill and why does it need to be given? We think about spending government money very carefully with real independent oversight. When we are looking after our environment, our natural world, and tackling the climate emergency, we need that same kind of independent oversight.

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Schedule 1 agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 95. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make that clear in the debate.

Clause 22: Principal objective of the OEP and exercise of its functions

Amendment 95

Moved by

Beijing Winter Olympic Games 2022

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, let me reassure my noble friend. He will be aware of my commitment to the importance of freedom of religion or belief around the world. This issue is very pertinent to what my noble friend raises. We have talked often about the Uighurs and other minorities within China. It is very much a priority for Her Majesty’s Government. I know it is a priority for our Prime Minister. On the issue of the Olympics and China’s current hosting or a change of venue, as I have already said, that is not a matter for Her Majesty’s Government, but my noble friend makes a very strong point, as others have during this short debate.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

My Lords, the time for this Private Notice Question has elapsed.

Yemen

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the objective of Her Majesty’s Government is to bring about peace in Yemen. As I have already indicated, this engages us on several fronts. We are second only to the US in the humanitarian support we provide to Yemen. We have engaged quite directly as penholders at the UN Security Council and will continue to do so. I believe I have made our position on arms control and exports very clear on a number of occasions, and again today. However, I assure the noble Lord that we will work very closely with the new Administration in the United States, who have clearly signalled the importance and priority they attach to this issue, in pursuit of the objective—peace in Yemen.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Barker) (LD)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Ethiopia: Northern Tigray Region

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second point, the short answer is yes. We have raised it on a bilateral basis, as have international agencies. One figure I can share with him is that we now estimate that more than 45,449 people have fled Ethiopia for neighbouring Sudan—that is the latest figure I have. That is an example of the figures we have been able to make an assessment on.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, given that this is, in essence, a political and economic conflict, and given also that the Chinese Government are the biggest economic investor in Ethiopia, are Her Majesty’s Government working with the Chinese Government to see what influence they can bring to bear to calm matters and to bring about a potential negotiation between Ethiopia and Eritrea?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an important point. We too are one of the leading international donors to the country, and I assure her that we are using, in particular, our discussions at the UN in pursuit of that aim.

LGBT International Rights

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, our embassy in Warsaw works actively on this agenda with both civil society and the Polish Government, in close co-operation with our diplomatic partners. The noble Lord pointed to the letter that the UK ambassador recently signed. Earlier this year, the embassy hosted an expert round table with Polish businesses and LGBT groups. We fly the rainbow flag annually, and our embassy in Warsaw will continue to work on this important agenda and support the groups that are fighting for equal rights in Poland.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, statistically, LGBT citizens of the United Kingdom enjoy greater rights than many people around the world, but citizens of our overseas territories do not. They often find themselves in legal limbo, whereby they cannot appeal to their Government or ours. What are the Government doing to close that legal loophole for citizens in our overseas territories?

[Baroness Sugg (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness will know, the British Overseas Territories are separate and largely self-governing jurisdictions with their own democratically elected representatives. That said, we are seeing progress. I was delighted to see the Government of the Cayman Islands introduce civil partnerships legislation recently. We have seen good progress on that and I hope that other OTs will follow.

Lord Mayor’s Show: Taiwan

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Barker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the decision of the Lord Mayor’s Show 2019 to decline an application to participate by the representative office of the government of Taiwan.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, in begging leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare an interest as a member of the British-Taiwanese All-Party Parliamentary Group.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the lord mayor’s office is independent of central government so this is a decision for it. However, we continue to support Taiwan’s inclusion in matters which do not confer statehood upon Taiwan and to which it brings cultural, economic and educational value. The Lord Mayor’s Show falls within this category.

[Baroness Barker]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. This instance of China’s relentless campaign to deny Taiwan international recognition is petty; others are not. The exclusion of Taiwan from the World Health Assembly, in the age of SARS, could have potentially devastating global consequences. What are the Government going to do to help the people of Taiwan stand up to this unfair treatment which continues to emanate from China?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, that is not the Government’s view. When we were asked, we gave our opinion that Taiwan should be included in the Lord Mayor’s Show as it falls within the category that I have just articulated. We continue to support Taiwan’s membership of key organisations within the UN family, such as the World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization.

Western Balkans

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Thursday 10th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, for this debate, which, sadly, is timely and appropriate. I thank her for giving me the opportunity to tell your Lordships’ House about an event that took place in Sarajevo on 27 December. Joseph Ingram wrote a report of it and he said this. Citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina held a spontaneous commemorative service in the “iconic, reconstructed city hall”. The hall was,

“filled to capacity, and despite being nationally televised, had people lined up outside trying to be part of it. The ‘Mothers of Srebrenica’, a group that represents survivors of the most horrific massacre of innocent civilians on European soil since World War Two, had announced that they too intend to honour the work of this extraordinary human being”.

The event was dedicated to one man. He was born in India. He grew up as a lad in Northern Ireland. He left school, joined the marines and became a captain, a diplomat and spy. Then he gave up everything and, after a period on the dole, went on to become a youth worker and eventually the gallant MP for Yeovil. In this House, we knew him as Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, but he was always Paddy.

He had a wide range of interests. He had forgotten more languages than most of us have ever learned. He could quote the poetry of John Donne at will. He was an informed and passionate supporter of activists for democracy in Hong Kong, when nobody else took any notice, and he packed more achievements into a lifetime than most of us could imagine, but he was always first to admit that the source of his great strength was Jane. In public she was a quiet figure, but to those of us who know her she is a charming, funny and formidable woman.

I will give you one vignette which sums up both of them. Like all good leaders, Paddy used to invite people in to advise him, talk to him and argue with him. In 1992 I was one of the small group. Early one morning, he posed us the question: should I go to Bosnia? We went round the room and we all said no. We gave him all sorts of reasons why it was a really bad idea, and I left the meeting certain of only one thing. He was going to go. We all saw the TV pictures recently, but what we did not know until we read his autobiography was that he had come under fire, as the noble Baroness, Lady Helic, told us. But he went because he saw a group of people being treated unjustly, and he thought that he could and should do something.

Some months later, I was talking quietly to Jane at our party conference and I said to her, “It must be awful for you and the kids when he goes off on trips like that”. She said, “It is, but what is much worse is having to put up with him when they stop him going. Then he is just unbearable”. She went on to say that whenever Paddy went to the Balkans he carried thousands of letters backwards and forwards to people starved of news and desperate to know about their relatives. He never wrote about that.

From Somerset to Bosnia, from the people in the highest echelons of the UN to small groups of local Liberal Democrats, we were very privileged to walk alongside him, a remarkable man with a vision of a world in which freedom, justice and fairness exist for all in their diversity. It will be a great privilege to carry on his work.

I am pleased to say that one of the great things I got to do was to talk to Paddy a lot about the Balkans. I have been on visits recently to Kosovo and Serbia and have been to other parts of the Balkans in a private capacity. I am a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Kosovo. I would always come back and talk to Paddy about what I had seen, and he would give me a whole other level of understanding. It was not just his appreciation of the politics of the region but his absolute understanding of people—from the most hardened of embittered fighters to women and young people—that gave him a completely unique perspective, which he took back and forth and around the world to different policymakers. So it is with his help that I speak today.

On my trips to the region, I have been immensely impressed by our embassies. The FCO presence in the Balkans is truly remarkable. I am indebted to Denis Keefe, our ambassador in Belgrade, for this amazing tome about the complex history of British-Serbian Relations from the 18th to the 21st Centuries. The noble Baroness, Lady Helic, referred time and again to the historical context in which we have to look at things. It is a long and complex history which stems from the geopolitical significance of the Balkans and the United Kingdom. It is absolutely right, as she and noble Lords said, that we hold this debate today in the knowledge that whatever happens with Brexit, the calibration of the British geopolitical standing will have a huge difference. In all the visits I have made since Brexit has been on the agenda, not just to the Balkans, there is an acute sense that people around the world understand that our place in the world will change. As a trading partner we will be different if we are not part of the EU. Others may say that we have a different place in the world, but those of us engaged in this are perhaps mistaken if we assume that we can carry on with the same sort of bilateral understanding we have had until now.

A key and central thing we need to do as a result of this debate is to ask the Government how they are going to recalibrate their relationship with third parties such as the western Balkan states in the new relationship, whatever that is, with the European Union. We cannot work on the assumption that all the agreements and good will we have had to date will continue. I took part in the civil society summit in September. I understand that the United Kingdom does and will continue to wield an immense amount of soft power. I have been tremendously impressed by the work of the British Council throughout the western Balkans. Things such as arts programmes may not appear to have a direct relationship to security, but we know they do. If we secure and cement relationships, particularly emotional relationships with young people, we are having a direct impact on the security of our nation. It is interesting for anybody who goes there to hear politicians, particularly in places such as Serbia, draw very much on the political relationships they have with Russia and that side of the world, but to look at the young people and to understand that their economic and cultural aspirations lie in Europe.

On the question of civil society and investment in it, at the summit the British Government made a commitment to continue their involvement in various programmes. I wonder whether the Minister could give more detail about this in his response. When I was in Kosovo and Serbia, two things struck me as being of the utmost importance: the role played by women in the development of business and economics, and the role of young people. One cannot but be struck by the level of unemployment among young people. If these countries are to thrive, it will be in new areas of industry and with a new approach. Investment in young people and in women will be paramount. What are the Government going to do to support women and young entrepreneurs in particular?

We all know that you cannot have security if you do not have a basic, functioning democratic structure. Much is being done—particularly through the EU—to strengthen programmes for democratic engagement, and the investment the EU has so far put into anti-corruption programmes is important. How will the UK Government continue to be involved if Brexit goes ahead? The threat is that we could become estranged from policy-setting within the European Union and take a divergent path. That would serve neither us nor the countries of the western Balkans at all well.

Finally, I believe that the Westminster Foundation for Democracy is to have renewed investment. What does the Minister envisage this will bring about, particularly in relation to strengthening opposition political forces in the various parliaments? When one visits parliaments, one is keenly struck by the lack of a credible and formal opposition—not in one particular country, but in all of them. This is a tremendous weakness. It does not help with the democratic oversight of the functions of government.

I return to my friend Lord Ashdown and one of his many quotes about his time in Bosnia. By any stretch of the imagination, he achieved remarkable advances in the most difficult of circumstances. Looking back on his time dealing with men, women and young people who were severely traumatised but desperately hoping to work their way towards normality and economic advancement, he said:

“History teaches us these lessons for the interveners: leave your prejudices at home, keep your ambitions low, have enough resources to do the job, do not lose the golden hour, make security your first priority, involve the neighbours”.


My question to the Minister is how, in the shadow of Brexit, will the UK maximise its historic ties to the western Balkans and succeed in doing this?

British Overseas Territories: Same-Sex Marriage

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Barker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to enable citizens to enter into a same-sex marriage in British Overseas Territories.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon)]

My Lords, we are pleased that the British Antarctic Territory, the British Indian Ocean Territory, the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, the Pitcairn Islands, St Helena, Ascension, Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands—I sound like a train announcer—have all taken steps to recognise and enable same-sex marriage. In the overseas territories where same-sex marriage is not currently recognised, we continue to engage constructively with both Governments and civil society to encourage and promote equality irrespective of gender or sexuality.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that detailed Answer. The United Kingdom Government imposed on overseas territories compliance with the international money laundering Act of 2018, even where there were not agreed international regulatory frameworks. The Government refuse to require all the overseas territories to respect the rights of LGBT citizens under the ECHR, with which they and we must be compliant. Why the double standard?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I do not think that there is a double standard. The noble Baroness may recall my vociferous defence, as the Minister for the Overseas Territories, of the autonomy of the overseas territories, believing that it was right that they should continue to take forward the issue of the registers, as they were doing quite progressively. However, the will of the other place was such that the will of Parliament was upheld by the Government. We would rather not have been in that position. On this issue, we continue to respect the autonomy. However, at the same time, I assure the noble Baroness that we work very progressively. We have seen in recent developments in places such as Bermuda how the courts domestically are reacting to the importance of progressing this issue.

Commonwealth: Discriminatory Legislation

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Barker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, what specific activities they expect to support under new funding announced by the Home Office to support proposals to repeal discriminatory legislation in Commonwealth countries.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In so doing, I draw attention to my interests in the register.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has committed to supporting Commonwealth countries that want to reform their outdated legislation. The new £5.6 million of funding will support civil society to accelerate social and legislative change, provide legal policy research tools and expertise and convene regional dialogues to strengthen co-operation, understanding and policy exchange. The aim of the programme is to advance the legal equality and rights of all Commonwealth citizens, regardless of gender, sex, sexual orientation or gender identity.

[Baroness Barker]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. Thirty years ago, under Section 28, this Parliament gave the world a blueprint on how to discriminate against LGBT people, so it was extremely welcome to listen to the Prime Minister’s proposal during CHOGM. What is the funding supposed to support? What activities do the Government envisage will be carried out under this programme? Does the Minister agree that those religions that have colluded to harm LGBT people around the world should perhaps offer restitution by supporting this initiative?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the noble Baroness’s second point, as we promote LGBT rights, it is important to discuss this issue with religious leaders and approach it with sensitivity—I fully accept that—but it is also important to look at this as being about the equality of all citizens. Issues of justice and equality for all resonate with all faiths. On the specific point about funding, the noble Baroness is right to point out that our Prime Minister, Mrs May, was very clear at the Commonwealth summit plenary session about where Her Majesty’s Government stand on this. The funding that was announced has been allocated specifically to look at these issue across the Commonwealth. I welcome practical suggestions from the noble Baroness—I know that she leads on this subject and has wide insight into it—because this money is to be allocated primarily to civil society organisations.

Chechnya: LGBT Citizens

Baroness Barker Excerpts

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Barker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are planning to take in response to reports of the persecution and detention of LGBT citizens in Chechnya.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are extremely concerned by reports of the detention and ill treatment of more than 100 gay men in Chechnya. I issued a statement on 7 April which was publicly supported by the Foreign Secretary. Officials in our embassy in Moscow raised our concerns with the Russian Government on 13 April. The EU made a statement on behalf of all member states at the OSCE, and the UK delivered a national statement at the Council of Europe.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. We now have clear evidence that gay people are being detained in camps in Chechnya and hunted in Russia. In circumstances where people are in fear for their lives, will the UK Government consider a form of leave to enter in order that people can seek international protection in the UK?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises the critical issue of the safety of individuals who are facing not just persecution: the Chechen leader Kadyrov wants their elimination before the start of Ramadan on 26 May. In the light of that, it is important for the whole of the international community to work together to resolve these issues, and that is what we shall certainly do. With regard to our asylum procedures, we are in the process of carrying out a commitment to improve the asylum processes for those claiming asylum on the basis of their sexual or gender identity. Decision-makers are provided with dedicated guidance on the management of such claims. We are working closely with NGOs and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees to develop this guidance and training and make it work better.