Finance (No. 3) Bill

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Stella Creasy

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. It is not just evidence; the companies have specifically said that the lack of regulation in the UK compared with other countries makes it a target market for them.

We know that borrowing is becoming a problem for people. More than four in 10 people are worried about their current debt, and in recent months 4 million have taken on more debt than they ever have before. One third of families say that they have no emergency savings whatever. However, this debate is not about a lack of rainy-day money. The number of people who say that they are likely to exceed their overdraft limit has more than doubled in the past year, and the number of people who say that they are likely to use an unauthorised overdraft this month has nearly doubled since July last year, from 900,000 to 1.6 million.

That means that more people are getting into financial difficulties. In recent years, personal insolvency in the UK has reached a record high. On average, there are more than 160 personal insolvencies every year in each constituency, which is a dramatic increase since the start of the last decade.

New clause 11 covers not only those who are formally in financial difficulties but those who are affected by debt and who have not sought help. The proposal reflects the growing inequality in our society between those who can borrow affordably and those who cannot. Research by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills shows that most households have a debt-to-income ratio of 10% or less, but that one in five households have debts worth more than 100% of their annual household income. There is growing evidence that such households are using multiple forms of unsecured credit—a mixture of high-cost credit and credit cards. Thirteen per cent. have four or more types of debt.

The question for many of us is this: who is borrowing? Eleven per cent. of lone parents use non-mainstream loans compared with just 3% of households overall. The Consumer Credit Counselling Service tells us that one in eight people who contacted it during the first half of 2010 were claiming jobseeker’s allowance. However, one thing that might concern many hon. Members is the growing evidence that the people who are suffering in this market are not just those whose incomes have always been fragile, but many middle-class families. Experian data show that the biggest increase in insolvency is among those with suburban mindsets—people who are in work, married and have kids, and who are trying to make ends meet.

[Lorely Burt]

Is it a matter of regret to the hon. Lady that the previous Labour Government presided over the greatest expansion of consumer credit in the history of this country? In their 13 years, the previous Government tried to do a number of things, but rejected the proposal in new clause 11. Does she agree that this Government, one year in, should be given the opportunity to finish their consultation and make proposals of which she might approve?

[Stella Creasy]

I am interested in the hon. Lady’s impression that consumer credit is a bad thing, because I do not agree. I would also be interested in her views on research by the Office for Budget Responsibility, which shows that as a direct consequence of the Government’s Budgets an extra £10,000 of debt is being put on to households. Perhaps she would like to comment on the implications of that for family finances. No? Then I will continue.

The problem is not just the high-cost credit industry but the nature of the industry and the way in which it operates, which is causing so many problems. What most worries many Opposition Members is that so many families are struggling. Indeed, we know that 46% of families say that they do not earn enough in a month to pay all their bills. Crucially, of that 46%, 10% say that the reason they are struggling is the repayments on high-cost credit. It is those very products that are pushing them into financial difficulty.

For the avoidance of doubt, I say clearly that I am not trying to put Wonga and the other companies out of business. I do not hold with the constituent of mine who argued that we should learn a lesson from Dante and put them in the seventh circle of hell, but we can make the credit market fairer for all concerned. It is important to set out, therefore, the kind of companies we are talking about and just how quickly this industry is growing in the light of recent economic circumstances.

Many people know about payday lending—the form of credit whereby a borrower gives a creditor a cheque or an authorisation to make an automatic withdrawal from their bank account. That is used as security for a short-term loan to be repaid, supposedly on the next payday. It is a long-established form of credit in other countries, but it is relatively new to the UK—and it is growing rapidly. By 2009, the payday lending industry was worth more than £1.2 billion, and the figures I have gathered from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which were released under a freedom of information request rather than being put in the public domain, show that it is now worth £1.9 billion. Indeed, in its “Keeping the Plates Spinning” report, Consumer Focus estimates that payday lenders are expected to quadruple the scale of their operations in the UK in the next few years alone.

Consumer Credit and Debt Management

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Stella Creasy

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good case for regulation, which is what the motion would introduce. However, it would be considered regulation that takes account of the market and of how it affects consumers. That is why I have confidence that the proposals would be effective if they were taken forward by the Government.

Markets change and the motion is about being responsive to that. It takes into account how consumers and lenders interact with the market. It draws its effectiveness from an evidence-based process. It is regulation at its best and boldest. Crucially, the proposals overcome the problems associated with previous proposals, which calculated the interest rate. Instead, the total cost of credit would be considered. That difference makes all the difference.

There is strong evidence from countries with caps that lenders have tried to avoid them or to compensate for their profit loss by applying higher charges. In Poland, following the introduction of caps, lenders introduced a mysterious convenience fee to make up the difference. The European Commission report shows that there is support—although not from providers, of course—for capping all the costs associated with loans to tackle such behaviour across the sector. The key to that measure will be how the caps are calculated. We have proposed that they should be annualised for ease of comparison and based on the total cost of the loan, rather than the interest rate alone. Calculating on the total cost makes it clearer to consumers what they will actually pay. There would be no small print and no nasty surprises that undermine people’s attempts to budget for repayments.

The motion is deliberately open about who would regulate. That is because changes have been proposed that would involve a number of bodies in the process, including the Office of Fair Trading and Consumer Focus. The Members who tabled the motion are open on how the regulatory process should be taken forward, but we want it to be taken forward.

The regulator would work with all stakeholders in the industry, including the lenders. I know that the industry is frightened by the proposals because of the amount of spin that they have sent to hon. Members. That is a pity because if they had been involved, we could have learned from their experience in considering the appropriate levels of capping. Their churlish opposition to any form of price capping and their attempts to conflate concern about interest rate caps with this matter highlight a disgraceful attitude towards vulnerable consumers. That is why self-regulation is not an option and why we as politicians must move towards intervention.

We have seen in other industries that where there is a lack of competition, regulators can work with consumer representatives and providers to set effective frameworks. That has happened in the water industry, the energy industry and the financial services industry. The proposals therefore build on the best practice in market intervention. I believe that British consumers deserve the best practice.

Having set out the proposals, I will take on some of the arguments that have been made against them. In doing so, I urge hon. Members to learn from that most famous of Dickensian characters, Gradgrind, who argued:

“Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else.”

Some people have argued that capping the costs of credit would cut lending in the industry and put firms out of the market—a market that Consumer Focus estimates is worth £35 billion a year. I urge hon. Members to read the European Commission research that investigated that very point and found no evidence to support it. Indeed, the OFT research that is often quoted is based on an industry study, which says that people could end up borrowing from friends and family. Furthermore, the EU research found that countries with no caps had higher levels of illegal lending than those with some form of cap.

Some people fear that if caps were set, there would be a race to the top for all lenders. That suggests that caps would encourage all banks and building societies to start charging 4,000% interest rates. When Policis considered the matter in 2004, it found no evidence to support that concern. The motion calls for a range of caps to reflect different types of loans. That reflects the fact that mainstream banks would not compete with lenders in the unsecured market.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

On the Policis research, the former Labour Minister with responsibility for consumer affairs, the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), stated:

“Government carefully considered the case for a cap on interest rates following research carried out by Policis in 2004. The research showed that imposing a cap on interest rates could result in lenders withdrawing from the riskier end of the market, including the home credit market, denying vulnerable consumers access to legitimate sources of credit”.—[Official Report, 22 March 2010; Vol. 508, c. 149W.]

[Stella Creasy]

It is a pity that the hon. Lady was not here at the start of the debate when I set out clearly that the proposal is not for an interest rate cap, but for a cap on the total cost of credit. As I said, that is a difference that makes all the difference to the efficacy of the proposals. That is why many groups that share the concerns in the research that the hon. Lady has set out, are not concerned about these proposals. I urge her to look closely at that distinction. I will press on now because many hon. Members wish to speak and I know that the Minister will have a substantial amount to say.

Another point that has been raised is that new provisions in the Consumer Credit Act 2006, which came into force recently, may well change the market. Although those provisions are welcome, the protection that they offer presumes that choice is open to consumers and that if they are simply equipped with clearer pricing and the chance to rethink loans, that will resolve the problems that we have discussed. Customers with no alternative, struggling to make ends meet, cannot exercise choice or avoid borrowing. If someone is tied to the train tracks, knowing when the train is coming makes only a limited difference to their chances of survival. Until we give consumers a level playing field by producing powers to cap costs, we will not change the dynamic of the relationship.

Others have argued that the powers needed already exist, and that the Competition Commission could investigate and act. Indeed, the Office of Fair Trading referred the home credit market to the commission in 2004, as the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) pointed out, and came up with various remedies. Here I turn to the views of Citizens Advice, which argues that the problems are getting worse, not better. That shows that those powers have not worked, so it is time to strengthen the intervention that we make in the market.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lorely Burt]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but no, I do not entirely recognise that, because I am not sure that she is distinguishing between what the two actually mean. I am not against what the hon. Member for Walthamstow is promoting, but I question her position. After 13 years—13 years in which her Government gave the matter due consideration and in which her party had an unquestionable desire to help—she seeks to introduce something now, in the middle of a Government consultation, when she knows that the Government cannot commit themselves in case they prejudice the consultation.

[Stella Creasy]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Lorely Burt]

I will, but the hon. Lady should please be brief.

[Stella Creasy]

I just want to check that the hon. Lady understands that this is a Backbench Business Committee debate, so in theory Back Benchers could take a position that is different from that of the Government. If the Government were concerned about the consultation, they could abstain from the vote, thereby protecting themselves against any question of judicial review, whereas Back Benchers are free to express an opinion. Does she not agree?

[Lorely Burt]

Back in the real world, we do not want to abstain. We—the Government—want to support her proposition, so I am disappointed that she is taking the view she has.

We cannot accuse the Government of doing nothing. This week the consumer credit directive came into force, enforcing a 14-day cooling-off period. We have also increased the money going into catching, prosecuting and imprisoning loan sharks—these pariahs who feast on the misery of the desperate. The illegal money-lending teams are doing a great job and have been very effective, and we have also launched the consultation—the one that the hon. Lady does not seem to be interested in acknowledging.

Consumer Credit Regulation

Debate between Baroness Burt of Solihull and Stella Creasy

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Lorely Burt]

I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. As the hon. Member for Walthamstow said, it is very important to look at the whole cost of a loan rather than necessarily relying on an interest rate. The Finance and Leasing Association is concerned that if we cap the interest rate the market will migrate towards the maximum, with high-risk consumers being cross-subsidised by lower-risk ones because somewhere or other the risk has to be funded.

[Stella Creasy]

Does the hon. Lady share my concern that listening to the Finance and Leasing Association on how to protect the poorest consumers is a bit like listening to burglars telling us that muggers are not very nice because they take people’s property to their face?

[Lorely Burt]

A burglar might have a lot of expertise in telling us how to keep our homes safe, so it is important to keep an open mind and listen to everybody in the argument. The point is that the association is concerned that if we over-regulate, illegal loan sharks will fill the void left behind when other, more reputable lenders leave the market.

The Office of Fair Trading did a review this year of high-cost credit products, pawnbroking, pay-day loans and home collection credit. It concluded that capping price controls was not necessarily the answer:

“This is because controls such as interest rate caps can contribute to reducing competition in the sector and lead lenders to recover lost income through increasing charges for late payment and default.”

Were a cap introduced, there would be a risk of all lenders raising their interest rates to match their competitors, thus making access to loans more difficult for borrowers. The cost of loans is twofold—it is a combination of interest rate and length of term of borrowing—so although some interest rates are very high, that can be offset by the length of the loan. The variety of lending options ensures that the specific requirements of all consumers can be met.

I shall not go into the pay-day and home credit loans, or indeed store credit cards. The point is that they all have a role to play, provided that they are properly regulated. We have heard reference today to the review by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury. I know that they are covering slightly more than credit and store cards; indeed, they are covering an issue that I have raised in my private Member’s Bill—unauthorised overdraft charges. I am very hopeful that we will now get a good resolution on that. I would, however, appreciate clarification from the Minister as to what we will be covering, because my understanding is that we could take the opportunity to consider that important and complex issue.

Finally, is not the answer to give deprived communities better access to mainstream debt? We have talked about the Post Office and basic bank accounts. Everyone has a right to a basic bank account, and that should be much better promoted. We have talked about credit unions, and some companies, such as My Home Finance, have reduced their APR to 29.9%. That might sound like a lot of money, but in the context of illegal loan sharks it is quite something. I look forward to the Minister’s problems—sorry, the Minister’s comments [Laughter.] He certainly has enough problems, that’s for sure. In all this, it is important that we take into account the fact that, somewhere, we have to price for risk.