Public Order Bill

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare my registered interest as a council member of Justice, the all-party UK section of the International Commission of Jurists.

Noble Lords know that we are not here today to examine the tactical blend of persuasion and nuisance that constitutes peaceful dissent for those who do not own media or energy empires or walk red or green carpets. Sadly perhaps, still less are we here to debate the substance of so many burning issues—the future of our planet being the most obvious.

No, we are here to protect the constitutional climate and to scrutinise yet another public order Bill proposed for an overcrowded statute book. Is it effective, transparent, proportionate and even-handed? Is it respectful of the rule of law principles articulated by the late, great, noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham of Cornhill? We might also reflect on why the Government promote blank-cheque police powers before even beginning to deal with police discipline, found so wanting after Sarah Everard’s murder and in the interim report from the noble Baroness, Lady Casey.

The Bill bears closer resemblance to anti-terror law than measures aimed at addressing moments when peaceful dissent crosses a line into significant public nuisance. I commend to noble Lords Sir Charles Walker’s speech in the other place against the “machismo laws” he described as “unconservative” and designed for a good headline in the Daily Telegraph.

I refer noble Lords first to the concept of thought crime, where otherwise innocent activity is impugned on the basis of imputed intention alone, as in being “equipped for locking on” by carrying a bicycle chain or first aid kit in one’s rucksack. Secondly, I refer to suspicionless stop and search, notoriously ripe for racialised abuses of police power and found in breach of the convention on human rights in Gillan and Quinton v UK, brought by Liberty during my time as its director. Thirdly, I refer to using quasi-civil orders such as the infamous anti-terror control orders, once opposed by noble Lords opposite, and the now proposed protest banning orders—that is what they are—issued on a civil standard of proof including, as we have head, against people never convicted of a crime, creating a personal criminal code with harsh restrictions on the liberty of the individual subject.

This is controversial enough when applied to suspected terrorists. But how even more dangerous is it to play cat and mouse with non-violent dissenters, whether historic suffragettes or contemporary pro-democracy campaigners in Hong Kong, Russia or the United Kingdom? Some noble Lords may find the comparisons uncomfortable—as well we all should. But they should look at the analysis of Justice, Amnesty International and Big Brother Watch, which describe these provisions, rightly previously rejected by your Lordships’ House, as going further than the law in Russia and Belarus. A Hong Kong lawyer now based in the UK described to me the aptness of comparison with her former home in no uncertain terms just last week. The Bill undermines us as champions of the rule of law internationally, but it also sends a terrible signal to our young people here at home.

Yesterday in the Moses Room, Ministers lamented cancel culture in universities. Today, via unfortunate proxies, perhaps on the Benches opposite, the resurrected Home Secretary wages culture war: not no-platforming and hurt feelings but police batons and prison terms. She further proposes a new and unprecedented power for herself: directly to intervene operationally in public order, in a manner previously reserved for the police and criminal courts on the one hand and those directly affected and civil courts on the other. Thus this sensitive area of policing will be more politicised than ever, with tub-thumping Ministers playing to the populist gallery, not just with conference and Commons speeches but in court. The Home Secretary pleads redemption for herself but incarceration for those who plead for the planet, against poverty, and even for free speech itself.

Hypocrisy is not mere tactical error. When it invades our statutes, it threatens the legitimacy layer: that which protects law-based order in which civilised society endures. An unelected House that does not stand for rights and freedoms becomes even and ever harder to defend.

Western Jet Foil and Manston Asylum Processing Centres

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for reminding me and my department of that very valuable agreement. Certainly, the best solution to this problem would be an agreement with France under which it accepted the return of everyone who crosses the channel. There could be no stronger deterrent to crossing it. I will of course encourage officials to look at the agreement made in 1995 and see what steps can be taken to revive it.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, initiation rites are pretty tough in some cultures, but none the less I too welcome the Minister to his place. I declare an interest as a fellow member of 39 Essex Chambers, where lawyers act for and against the Government without demonising each other. Of course, the demonisation of their most vulnerable clients is worse. Did the Minister see the comments by the very well-respected charity, HOPE not hate? Its policy director said:

“The terrible incident at Dover does not stand in isolation. It is the result of repeated demonisation … of migrants, asylum seekers and refugees by the government and by the media.”


As an excellent lawyer, the Minister will know that, by definition, because of the non-penalisation doctrine in the refugee convention, a crossing that eventually results in refugee status was never an illegal crossing. Finally, does the Minister agree that it is not helpful or appropriate to refer to the current refugee crisis as an “invasion” of our south coast?

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind remarks. She is right to observe that we have that common interest in terms of our professional origins. I imagine her question relates to the question posed in perhaps more clear terms by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about the use of the word “invasion” by the Home Secretary. I take the view that the expression the Home Secretary used was intended to—and did—convey the scale and challenge we face as a country from the numbers crossing the channel. Millions of people across this country are rightly concerned about that and want to know that we have a robust but secure asylum system. A significant proportion of those arriving on our shores are economic migrants, many from countries such as Albania. A quarter of all migrants this year came from Albania, which is demonstrably a safe country. The Home Secretary and the entire ministerial team will see what they can do to bear down on those numbers.

Public Spaces Protection Orders

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister help me, for clarity: does the relevant guidance prohibit or advise against incentivising enforcement for profit motives rather than because it is the right application of the law?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

No, the relevant guidance does not, because, as I say, this is a matter for the local authorities. As I understand it, there is no mention of profit.

Police National Computer

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend. So far, to date, the Government and Post Office have made good progress on delivering compensation to postmasters through the scheme fairly and quickly—82% of eligible claimants have now received an offer, and £52 million has been offered in total. I accept that it is not enough, but it is being done.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have presided over the economy and vital sensitive infrastructure, including tech infrastructure, for 12 years. If, as the Minister suggests, there was no viable alternative, why not?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Unfortunately, as I said, this relates to the delay in the rollout of the new system. The new system was delayed because of unforeseen complexity. I should state for the record that statistics around the police national computer are mind-boggling in their complexity: 30 million people’s information; 68 million vehicle records; 61 million driving licence holder records; 1.34 million daily transactions; 114 million checks per annum. It has to work; therefore, there was no viable alternative.

Metropolitan Police: Misconduct

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a number of questions and invites a number of responses. I shall confine myself to the data that he asked for at the end—and I am grateful to him for giving me advance notice of the data so that I could get the right answers for him.

The Home Office collects and publishes data annually on police officers on long-term absence, classed as those lasting at least 28 calendar days, by type of absence, including suspension and sick leave. This data shows that, as of 31 March 2022, the Metropolitan Police Service had 449 officers full-time equivalent on long-term sick leave and seven officers were suspended. The Home Office does not collect data on the number of officers who resign while under investigation, but I remind the noble Lord that, since December 2017, resignation does not preclude the force from pursuing misconduct proceedings against an officer. In 2021-22, the College of Policing’s barred list statistics show that 14 officers who had resigned and four who had retired would have been dismissed from the Metropolitan Police had they still been serving. These individuals are still placed on the barred list and still prevented from rejoining front-line policing.

I apologise for the long answer, but I felt that it was appropriate.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for his fearless efforts on this front over many years. Surely, we are all grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, for an interim report that appears to contradict the former Met Commissioner’s “few rotten apples” theory about the Metropolitan Police. Might the Minister reflect that, in the light of this interim report, now is not the time to hand even more draconian powers to an unreformed police service. The Government might be wise to swap legislation for the reform of police discipline for the Public Order Bill currently heading our way.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that I am going to disappoint the noble Baroness and not agree with her, but I am going to say that I think that the Metropolitan Police Service’s response to the interim report is most welcome. The new commissioner, Sir Mark Rowley, has the full support of the Home Secretary in delivering his plan for transforming the Met, focusing on the key areas of more trust, higher standards and less crime. I hope that all noble Lords will welcome his initial responses, which have been broadly welcomed across the spectrum.

Information Commissioner’s Office Report

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Monday 11th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I think that is the whole point of the criminal justice system: that evidence that comes forward distinguishes between consent and non-consent.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister readdress my noble friend’s question about counselling? It is a real concern of women that after they have made a report, they should be able to get some help—some therapy or counselling—in the considerable period before trial. The fear that that might be exposed to a fishing expedition will affect attrition rates.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I do apologise: I only answered one part of the noble Baroness’s question; I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, has come forward. I do not know if she is aware of Operation Soteria, a process through which the victim would be supported through the system from end to end, notwithstanding the need to secure justice and the right outcome based on evidence. I believe that five forces were initially part of the pilot. There are now 14 more, so I hope this will be a way of following due process and being consistent nationally, and a model for the future.

Migration and Economic Development Partnership with Rwanda

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I must confess to my noble friend that I have read that story but cannot corroborate it.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, first, does the Minister agree that the courts yesterday, domestically and in Strasbourg, were dealing with the narrow question of whether people should be sent off pending the substantive consideration and judicial review in July? Secondly, does she agree that, while I was disappointed by courts in London and her side was disappointed by courts in Strasbourg, what we in your Lordships’ House do not do is have a go at the referees—the judges—because we happen to be disappointed on a given day? Thirdly, does the Minister, for whom I have enormous respect, agree that the European Convention on Human Rights was drafted in principle by Conservative lawyers as part of Churchill’s legacy and that in these difficult times, domestically and in Europe, we should keep faith with the Council of Europe and keep our commitment to the European Convention on Human Rights?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I would say all yes on all three counts—but on that last point, as I said earlier, I know the Deputy Prime Minister is looking at a Bill of rights, and there is nothing wrong with revisiting things from time to time.

Asylum Seekers: Removal to Rwanda

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend is of course absolutely right. We have to strike that balance between being compassionate to those who need our refuge and asylum in this country and stopping some of the criminality associated with it. That is what the very generous British public voted for.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, I think the Minister would agree that these are controversial matters. She rightly said in response to the noble Viscount that a substantive judicial review of the policy will be considered in July. Would it not have been open to the Home Office to hold off removals until then, or is this a confected culture war so that other Ministers—never the noble Baroness, I might add—make these remarks about lefty lawyers thwarting the will of the people, and these poor seven or so souls are collateral damage in that culture war?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that a legal process is ongoing. Nevertheless, the Home Office has a duty to uphold the law. There have already been two court proceedings and we await the outcome of the JR next month with interest.

Ukrainian Asylum Seekers and Refugees

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord that there are two very good legal channels for refugees from Ukraine to come to this country. There is therefore no reason at all for them to be sent to Rwanda or anywhere else other than, I hope, back to Ukraine when the political and military situation allows.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, with respect, the Minister did not quite answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. If such a person arrived from Ukraine without a visa, might they be considered for being shipped off to Rwanda?

[Lord Harrington of Watford (Con)]

I can assure the noble Baroness that there is no reason at all why they should come here without a visa. It takes 48 hours to get a visa and there are very good legal routes for them to come here.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness Chakrabarti Excerpts

Thursday 12th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

Like other noble Lords, I will focus on the Government’s announcement of a Bill of Rights to restore the balance of power between the legislature and the courts. I declare my interest as a council member of Justice and one of those human rights lawyers for whom various Ministers regularly express open contempt.

I remind your Lordships that the legislature is not synonymous with the Executive, nor with the present incumbent of No. 10, notwithstanding the elective dictatorship analysis in the late Lord Hailsham’s outstanding 1976 lecture, to which my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton referred. Executive domination is not the model of our unwritten constitution, whose overarching principles are supposed to be parliamentary sovereignty and the rule of law. Contrary to Orwellian spin, when the Government abused prerogative power in 2019 quite literally to shut down the legislature, it was to the courts that parliamentarians were forced to turn for redress. This is not the first time that, faced with executive overreach, Parliament and the courts worked together to restore legality.

I commend everything said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. Although a great deal of legislation contains sweeping executive powers ripe for abuse, now and in future, by accident or design, the so-called Bill of Rights presents the gravest threat of all by removing the ability of people and courts to ensure that powers are exercised compatibly with rights and freedoms and that abusers of state power are properly held to account. In reducing rights protections rather than enhancing them in our nations, instead offering greater impunity to the state, the proposed Bill would achieve the very opposite of any constitutional Bill of Rights. It is not a Bill of Rights in any sense of the English language, and that will be important when considering whether it really fulfils a manifesto commitment.

By contrast, the Human Rights Act was designed by a Labour Government after cross-party consultation to incorporate the European convention rights drafted by Conservative lawyers after World War II. It requires our courts to “take account” of Strasbourg jurisprudence while not being bound by it. This gives them primacy at home, including to disagree with the Court of Human Rights, but also ensures that they remain in constant dialogue with that court and others across the Council of Europe and contribute to rights protections there too.

We are told that this link is to be broken. Under the proposed Bill, our courts will not even have to “take account” of the decisions of the Court of Human Rights—an extraordinary signal to send to the Council of Europe when Russia’s expulsion and Hungary’s violations put that jurisdiction in flux. Yet, in a rather bizarre exercise of executive cake-eating and magical thinking, courts will be allowed to diminish rights expanded in Strasbourg but never “exceed” the protection of these decisions, which they are not required to read.

Just as the Human Rights Act achieves dialogue between domestic and international courts, so it preserves balance between Parliament and judiciary. It requires that all legislation be read compatibly with human rights so far as it is possible to do so. When the language of a statute is just too plainly incompatible, Her Majesty’s senior judges make a declaration to this effect with only moral and persuasive force—that is it. It is suggested that these provisions will be jettisoned, as will duties on public authorities to exercise their powers with respect to human rights obligations, including positive obligations—for example, on the police to protect the public. What on earth will be left as enforcement mechanisms in this so-called Bill of Rights?

If that were not enough, redress could be limited to British nationals demonstrating “significant disadvantage” and “good behaviour”. How many times in history have abuses of power been justified as trivial—such as Rosa Parks being ordered to the back of the bus—or directed at “suspect” people? Think of every Soviet dissident, or Mandela under apartheid. How does this square with past apologies to the Windrush victims or to those of every other miscarriage of administrative or criminal justice?

Noble Lords need no reminding that ECHR compliance is baked into all devolution settlements, which currently and rather precariously hold this kingdom together. This is especially grave in relation to Northern Ireland. The efforts of previous statespeople resulted in the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. This Government’s approach to rights is better epitomised by the Maundy Thursday pact with Rwanda.