Health: Palliative Care

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Tuesday 23rd June 2015

(8 years, 10 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Lord Prior of Brampton Portrait Lord Prior of Brampton
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I thank my noble friend for that question. I cannot answer it specifically, but the report prepared earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, and other subsequent reports have stressed the need for nurses to be properly trained. That is true both in hospitals and in community settings. I agree with the sentiments behind my noble friend’s Question but would like to take advice on whether what he is suggesting is indeed incorporated into nurses’ core training.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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My Lords, yesterday I was at the Royal College of Nursing, where a lot of work has gone into producing advice on end-of-life care. It has produced a small pocket handbook—and a larger one that goes with it. If the Minister has not seen the handbook, perhaps he would find it useful from the point of view of spreading it through care homes and hospitals. End-of-life care is in the curriculum for nurses but there is always a need for a reminder. These little cards that are to go in the pocket provide the essentials about end-of-life care.

Lord Prior of Brampton Portrait Lord Prior of Brampton
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My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for those comments. Over the years I have spent quite a lot of time with nurses who are specialists in palliative care and I have always been hugely impressed by their work. I have not seen the booklet produced by the RCN to which the noble Baroness refers and I would certainly like to do so.

Maternity Services in Morecambe Bay

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Tuesday 3rd March 2015

(9 years, 2 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
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I am grateful to my noble friend and I do indeed recall our debates on the NHS Redress Act. It is telling that the previous Government chose not to bring that Act into force in the end. The recommendation in the report that there should be a fundamental review of the NHS complaints system is one that we will consider very carefully. We agree that there are still challenges to improving NHS complaints handling, including improving the culture around complaints. Those challenges have been well documented. Our work to improve complaints handling across the board was set out in our update on progress in response to the Francis inquiries in February. Complaints and how they are handled is now one of the key strands of inquiry in all inspections of the CQC.

On my noble friend’s point in relation to recommendation 27, the GMC, the NMC and the PSA have guidance in place on how to raise and act on concerns about patient safety. We will work with these bodies to determine whether this guidance needs strengthening in the light of this report. The GMC has been undertaking its own review of how it deals with doctors who raise concerns in the public interest.

On my noble friend’s final point about the disjointedness of the CQC and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman, a new MOU was signed in September 2013 which outlined how the two organisations would collaborate, co-operate and share information relating to their respective roles. It is without question that the lack of co-ordination between the CQC and the PHSO was a contributory factor to the ongoing inability of the wider system to identify and act on failings at the trust.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I want to pick up two points. The report by the King’s Fund relating to the supervision of midwifery said that there was a risk in changing the situation because there might be no one ready to take on the job. That is a very telling phrase in what is a very long and sad report about what has been going on. We need to be very clear. I hope that the noble Earl will be able to reassure us that the supervision of midwives, which has a long history, from 1902 to now, but in very changed circumstances, will be sustained in a way that is going to be to the benefit of mothers for the safe delivery of babies. A report like this always sends shock waves through the profession and is very sad for the families involved. We need to be clear that the action being proposed in the Statement is taken forward quickly. I notice that the supervision is supposed to be concluded by the end of July. That is a very short time to sort out a very complex system.

The second point I want to pick up is the one made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about a chief midwifery officer. The Minister said that he would look at that. It is not something that has been thought of very carefully. We have a Chief Nursing Officer and a director of public health and so it would be sensible to give this serious consideration, especially in light of the present situation. I ask the Minister to take that away and consider it.

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
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On the noble Baroness’s second point, I shall of course take due note of her recommendation. It is something to which we will give very careful thought. On the principal issue that she raised about supervision, as she knows, the statutory supervision of midwives was designed more than 100 years ago—in 1902, I believe—to protect the public. In our view, it no longer meets the needs of current midwifery practice. The King’s Fund was commissioned by the NMC to review midwifery regulation following the findings of the ombudsman that midwifery regulation was structurally flawed as a framework for public protection. The current structure does not differentiate between the requirements of regulation and clinical supervision.

If, as I anticipate, legislation is needed to change this—I think it is clear that it is—that is likely to take up to two years, even on the best estimate. During that time the Department of Health will work with the UK chief nursing officers, the NMC and the Royal College of Midwives to develop a four-country approach, which it has to be, as the noble Baroness will understand, to midwifery supervision that will replace the current statutory midwifery supervision. I hope that that is helpful.

Health Care and Associated Professions (Indemnity Arrangements) Order 2014

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Monday 30th June 2014

(9 years, 10 months ago)

Grand Committee
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Baroness Brinton Portrait Baroness Brinton (LD)
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My Lords, I completely endorse all the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, and I am glad that there has been some give from the council to try to move this difficult issue forward.

I want to make a slightly different point. In these febrile days, when everything in the EU is damned, it is most welcome that this regulation comes from a new directive that is going to give patients across the EU the security of knowing that there will be indemnity and insurance available in every state. It may not be directly comparable but there will be something there. I am pretty sure that this will not hit the headlines but I see it as a major benefit to those of us who travel in Europe, as well as those coming to the UK. It is the sort of thing that is completely hidden from the headlines; it should not be.

On the difficult issue of indemnity insurance for midwives, I have been wondering, having come late to this debate, whether or not there is scope for NHS England, the regulatory councils and the insurance councils to try to work better together. The financial services industry talks frequently about the problems of insuring a very small service. This clearly is that, and it does not fit into an ordinary framework. Yet the midwives have been through exactly the same training as their counterparts elsewhere in the NHS and I am sure that clinical commissioning groups will demand that they have insurance cover. That is absolutely right. Therefore, the problem is in looking at this small cohort of midwives rather than seeing them as part of the greater group who have qualified under the same professional regulation.

I ask the Minister whether discussions will continue to ensure that no one could be denied service simply because they may not fall neatly into one of the categories. Again, I congratulate the Nursing and Midwifery Council on at least trying to find a solution to this difficult problem but it should not be said, as it is in paragraph 8.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, that there is a balance that has to be made here and, as it affects only a few people, we should perhaps be prepared to let it go. I do not believe that we should.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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My Lords, I have one or two points to make. It is not very often I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, but we really have to focus on the safety of mother and child.

I am talking about independent midwives only, not the whole directive, because I support the directive. I think there is a problem in that the midwifery profession generally is the most regulated of the nursing professions. They are required to be relicensed every year. They are under a supervisory midwife. They are, if anything, more supervised than the nursing profession. I chaired the professional conduct committee of the previous regulatory body and the midwifery cases that came forward were, in the main, where things went wrong with independent midwives. Mistakes are made—I am sure we all accept that—but the problem is that very often they lack support out in the community.

In a situation where things go badly wrong, there is the issue of who is going to pay the compensation to the mother or baby who has to be cared for for many months or even years. The other noble Baroness—I am afraid I cannot remember her name—said that we ought to be looking at something to help the independent midwives, but how do we help a very small group among a very large number of midwives and try to support them when very often the compensation is enormous?

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his introduction to the order, following, as he said, the Finlay Scott review. The Opposition have no argument with the principle of the order, but I want to raise with the Minister some of the practical consequences of its implementation. The Government’s consultation states that about 4,200 self-employed nurses and therapists may be required to obtain indemnity cover. For most concerned, the insurance premium is modest. The Department of Health’s consultation estimate was that for nurses the insurance premium would be £195 per annum, and for therapists between £255 and £256 per annum. There should not be a problem with those practitioners being able to pay that premium, but we run into great difficulty when it comes to independent midwives.

I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, that of course the safety of the mother and baby is paramount, and her point about the issue of professional support for independent midwives. I am sure that she would recognise that for some women, the support of an independent midwife is very important to them. Sometimes the reason why a woman will turn to an independent midwife is that they find that statutory services are either not prepared to help her to have a baby at home or are less than sympathetic. It would be a great pity if, as a result of the order, that very small group of professionals was unable to practise. The RIA accepts that affordable commercial cover is not available to independent midwives working as individuals. The consultation estimates that there would be an annual cost of indemnity cover of about £15,000 per individual independent midwife. There is no way that an independent midwife is likely to be able to pay that sum.

It is fair to ask the Minister whether he considers that independent midwives will be able to practise in future as a result of the order. I take the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, made, about the benefit of this EU regulation, but what an irony that the Conservative Party, in particular, with its histrionics about Europe and the extraordinary behaviour of our Prime Minister in the past few days, is now bringing in a European order that will put independent midwives out of business. I wonder whether the Government really recognise that. They may find that independent midwives are in fact no longer able to practise, and the Government may come in for considerable criticism as a result.

I was unimpressed by the response given by Dr Dan Poulter in another place. He has been very unsympathetic to the issue of independent midwives. That is a great pity. When this order was debated in the Commons a few days ago, I thought that the government response was weak, unsympathetic and gave very little comfort indeed. It is all very well talking about social enterprises in the Wirral as if that is an answer. Clearly, that will not be an answer for many independent midwives. The impact of agreeing to the order is that independent practitioners will not be able to practise any more. Either they will be forced to come into the NHS or they will simply not be available to women in future. I would like the Minister to give his assessment of what he thinks the impact of the order will be on those independent midwives.

Having read the Commons debate, I am not clear what happens to staff who provide care, sometimes complex care, independently but who are not a member of a regulated body. What about care assistants practising independently? The Minister said that where they are employed they are covered because of the vicarious liability of the employer, but I am not clear about those practitioners in the health and care field who provide services but who are not part of a regulated profession.

As a general principle, the Opposition support the order because it is eminently sensible, but the Government could have found a more sympathetic way to help independent midwives to be able to practise in the future. I for one am fearful that, as a result of the order, they will not be able to do so.

Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Tuesday 29th October 2013

(10 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness Warnock Portrait Baroness Warnock (CB)
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My Lords, I support this amendment because I think that the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for example, objects to it is that he associates the word “spiritual” entirely with religious belief. As a matter of fact, I think the word has a much wider meaning that has nothing to do with religious belief, although of course for many people it does refer to religious belief. However, there are many people who are not religious who would nevertheless accept the word “spiritual” as covering what, in a sort of 18th-century sense, might be referred to as matters of sentiment; not belief, but a deep and profound romantic sentiment connected with the concept of nature and man’s place in nature. These are thoughts that come into one’s head in one’s declining years.

Therefore, it is partly through a misunderstanding, and a narrowing of the concept of “spiritual” that people may object—indeed, the Government may object—to its inclusion in this clause. For my part, and I think I speak for many people, it is a much wider word and it is a matter of enormous importance and great comfort to suppose that it is in the Bill.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and agree with the views just expressed by the noble Baroness about spirituality. I ask for the forgiveness of your Lordships’ House for this late intervention on the subject. I speak as a retired nurse, but I am nevertheless aware of the situations that nurses are placed in concerning this issue.

Let me start at the beginning. The Nursing and Midwifery Council, places a requirement on every new graduate that each nurse, in partnership with the person, their carers and their families,

“makes a holistic, person centred and systematic assessment of physical, emotional, psychological, social, cultural and spiritual needs, including risk, and together, develops a comprehensive personalised plan of nursing care”.

When I was taught in the preliminary training school, holistic care was described as the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of the patient, as in the 1950s, language was not so sophisticated to call it holistic care with all the ingredients that the NMC spells out. Nevertheless, the principles were well rooted. As a student, I clearly remember the description of today’s holistic care likened to a three-legged milking stool: when one leg breaks, it affects the whole stool. Likewise, if there is a physical condition, the whole person requires attention, be that psychological or spiritual.

It became necessary in 2010 for the Royal College of Nursing to commission a survey on spirituality. It revealed that members wanted more education and guidance about spiritual care, clarification about personal and professional boundaries, and support in dealing with spiritual issues. Within the survey it emerged that there was agreement that spiritual care is a fundamental part of nursing currently much neglected through ignorance and misunderstanding. A pocket book was prepared for the use of nurses, which states:

“The practice of spiritual care is about meeting people at the point of deepest need. It is about not just ‘doing to’ but ‘being with’ them. It is about our attitudes, behaviours and our personal qualities … It is about treating spiritual needs with the same level of attention as physical needs”.

In 1988, as Hitchens quoted:

“Often it is not until a crisis, illness … or suffering occurs that the illusion of security is shattered. Illness, suffering … and ultimately death … become spiritual encounters as well as physical and emotional experiences”.

Spiritual care is not just about religious belief and practice or about imposing belief and values on another using a position to convert. It is not a specialist activity or the sole responsibility of a chaplain. It is about hope and strength, trust, meaning and purpose, belief and faith in self and others. For some, this includes a belief in a deity and a higher power, people’s values, love and relationships, morality, creativity and self- expression.

Eighty per cent of care is delivered by nurses in hospitals and hospices. Nursing homes and care homes are less well supported by registered nurses but again support workers need to understand the relationship between physical, mental and spiritual needs in order to gain the right support for the person being cared for. However, this can be achieved only if nurses have enough time to be with the patient to establish a relationship and to pick up where there is a need. It cannot be done in 15 minutes, but in 15 minutes a registered nurse may pick up the need and be able to pass it on to someone who can give the help that is needed.

I hope the Minister will feel able to support the amendment before us as the words “spiritual well-being” are more explicit about what is required than the word “beliefs”. I hope this short explanation of the depth and breadth in which the nursing profession has explored this subject reflects the enormous amount of work that is required by all caring staff in whatever capacity to understand that the need for holistic care to meet the needs of those being cared for and their families is not restricted to physical or psychiatric treatment but includes spiritual well-being covering many innermost personal needs at often the most vulnerable time in their lives.

Baroness Barker Portrait Baroness Barker (LD)
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My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, for his kind words about the work I did on this issue. On Report, I tabled the amendment which stands in his name today because at that point the Government were working to a definition of well-being which was about emotional well-being, and it was my view that it did not sufficiently encapsulate the matters we would define as spiritual. My name is not on the amendment today because over the past few weeks I have discussed this at some considerable length with a number of people, not least with the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, on BBC Radio 4 at some unearthly hour a couple of Sundays ago.

I think the Minister has met us where we need to be because his amendment refers to “feelings and beliefs”, which is a fairly wide and inclusive term. It is important that we take his words, not the wording proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, because most of the discussion this afternoon has been about health and healthcare in healthcare settings, such as end-of-life settings, but this Bill is about social care at its widest in the community. Therefore we are perhaps not talking about the well-being of people at the end stage of their life, and it is important that we stick to a wider definition of a person’s beliefs because we are not talking just about medical matters.

The way the Government have framed the argument is sufficiently wide to include spiritual beliefs. I think in the normal course of conversation, when we talk about beliefs, we have almost a hierarchy of them. Religious beliefs perhaps come fairly high at the top; then people would secondarily think about spiritual beliefs. They might go on to talk about political beliefs being important to a person’s well-being. That is why I think that this time the Government have got this right. It is sufficiently clear and sufficiently inclusive to reflect all the concerns that remain legitimate on behalf of people backing my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment.

On this occasion the belt and braces are unnecessary and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, has got the House to the point where it wants to be. I will be quite happy to support that, not least because I think if we reform it we go with that formulation of words. Then we will be able to do the one thing which I think the law has to do, which is to be there as a backstop for those people who believe that their feelings and wishes are not being acknowledged and are being abused. That is the primary purpose of this legislation. Therefore, it should be as wide as possible.

Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Monday 21st October 2013

(10 years, 6 months ago)

Lords Chamber
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Baroness Wall of New Barnet Portrait Baroness Wall of New Barnet
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My Lords, I did not intend for that to happen. Noble Lords may find this quite tedious, but I want to follow both the theme and the specifics of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. As to the theme, his statement that things are difficult out there today is quite an understatement. Things are hugely difficult. I spent the morning with the TDA in my trust and heard very difficult messages around performance and, more importantly, around finance.

On the specific point about the suggested skill mix and the way of dealing with it in the Care Quality Commission, when we had our Care Quality Commission representative for Barnet and Chase Farm with us a couple of months ago—on a routine visit rather than an impromptu one—she set aside a session to talk to people about healthcare assistants. She got the same message that I have tried to impart to noble Lords on several occasions that the regulation of these people is hugely important. She was trying to understand what difference it would make. Patients who came in to listen at the event could not understand why healthcare assistants were not regulated in that way—although some thought that they were. There is also confusion about who they are and what role they play.

Healthcare assistants and nursing assistants are hugely important to the skill mix, but what they do and what they are able to do is paramount to being able to understand how their contribution to the skill mix really fits. I support the amendment. It can ensure that we once and for all deal with what it really means to be a healthcare assistant, what they can do and how they are regulated.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 159 standing in my name and in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Warner, and of my noble friend Lord Patel. Amendment 159 is about safeguarding patients. I championed safe staffing levels during the proceedings on the Health and Social Care Bill and during the proceedings on the Care Bill to date but failed to get my amendments accepted following a firm rebuttal by the Minister. Therefore, it was with a slightly doubtful mind that on 29 July, before we left for the Summer Recess, I put my name to the amendment before us today.

I then began nine weeks of reflection on whether I should or should not withdraw my name. I want to share the experiences of those nine weeks that have left my name on the amendment. I resolved to try to convince the Minister and noble Lords that if we wish to meet the challenges of high-quality, safe care acceptable to patients and their families in hospitals, we cannot ignore the contents of this amendment, set out under four headings. It recognises that it is only a small part of a very comprehensive Bill focusing on the acute hospital provider but it is nevertheless important that patients should be assured that all the measures that are taken will ensure their safety and the high quality of delivery of care to their satisfaction, resulting in a short length of stay, less likelihood of infection, reduced readmission rates and lower mortality rates.

Surely there is a cost-effective and care-effective way forward, despite the challenges it brings with it. The need to consider staffing levels in the community is equally important if we are to achieve an integrated service from primary healthcare and community care as well as from the acute providers in hospitals. Before the Recess I was involved in discussions about staffing levels with a number of very senior nurses, academics, the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. The Bruce Keogh report focused on the seriousness of the situation, identifying 14 hospitals with high mortality rates and low staffing levels. That was quickly followed by the publication of the report by Professor Don Berwick, also just mentioned, on the safety of patients, which again referred to low levels of nursing staff as being a problem, but not measured against an evidence-based level.

The group of senior nurses formed themselves into the Safe Staffing Alliance, chaired by Elizabeth Robb, the chief executive of the Florence Nightingale Foundation, who had personally experienced introducing care bundles for five long-term conditions, which led to a dramatic reduction in mortality rates, and who was a member of the Keogh commission. The alliance busily engaged itself in examining the research evidence available internationally, and within the UK, on staffing levels. Its statement says:

“Under no circumstances is it safe to care for patients in need of hospital treatment with a ratio of more than 8 patients per registered nurse during the day time on general acute wards including those specialising in care for older people”.

Very soon after that, Robert Francis spoke to the CQC and referred to his original recommendation on staffing levels. He said, “So much of what went wrong in our hospitals is likely and indeed was in many regards the case in Stafford, due to there being inadequate numbers of staff either in terms of numbers or skills. The evidence given to my inquiry however was not sufficient to persuade me that there should be a minimum across the board staffing level, and I know not everyone agrees with that conclusion. But I could only act on the evidence I had and I was after all only dealing with the event arising out of a particular hospital so the inquiry for all the breadth in the end had limitations. However, evidence has been put forward to me since from the Safe Staffing Alliance to suggest there is a level below which it should be regarded a service is not safe, not that’s the adequate level of staffing but the level below which you cannot be safe. It does seem to me that it’s evidence that is worth consideration and therefore ought to be considered somewhere with regard to whether there is some sort of benchmark which at least is a bit like mortality rates an alarm bell which should require at least questions to be asked about whether it is possible for a service to be safe given whatever the staffing situation is. I just ask you to consider that as being a potential way to show real support for staff, some of whom are working in really challenging circumstances”.

In an interview reported in the press on 8 October, Robert Francis discussed the possibility of services being shut down if insufficient staffing levels were evident.

During September, I met directors of nursing from the teaching hospitals called the Shelford Group, who were grappling with staffing problems but in slightly different circumstances from those in other NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts. I also discussed the issue with the director of nursing at Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust, Elaine Inglesby, who gave evidence to the Health Select Committee that demonstrated clearly that the whole hospital was engaged in the safe staffing project. She had been able to implement the suggested staffing levels by using the acuity and dependency tools supplied by the Association of UK University Hospitals and using the ratio of one registered nurse to eight patients as a minimum, based on the evidence from Southampton University, King’s College London and the National Nursing Research Unit. Evidence suggested that there was a need for three registered nurses on night duty.

In this hospital there is a safe staffing steering group to support ongoing development. The introduction of a white board on every ward or department indicates the number of nurses and grades on each shift. This is posted so the patients and visitors can immediately identify how many staff at what grade are on duty at any time. There is a daily safe-staffing teleconference on daily rotas meeting each morning at 8.30. This looks at the morning, late and night shift and presents a true picture of ward and department nurse staffing. Obviously this is an ongoing development project involving the board members and the staff of the whole hospital. To date it is working to the satisfaction of patients, families and, above all, the staff involved.

During this time, I also noted the media and varying reports of events demonstrating failings in service delivery because of low staffing levels, including the reports of warning signs from the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. I also listened to patients’ experiences, where shortage of staff appeared to be a major concern. The need for so many trusts to seek overseas recruits because of shortage was reported last week. There are also records from the Patients Association, which has received many complaints on staff shortages during this time.

I then went on holiday myself and reflected back over the eight weeks. I came to the conclusion, while declaring that I am a long-retired nurse not on the NMC register, that I could do nothing but support the amendment and continue campaigning for the future safety of patients. I hope I have persuaded the Minister. Although this amendment is only a very small part of this large Bill, because of the ramifications for the safety of patients in hospitals who rely on 80% of their care being given by nurses, we owe it to the nurses and to the patients they serve at least to acknowledge and accept the words of the amendment so framed to allow the flexibility required to meet patient need but avoid high risk to the delivery of care. I trust the Minister will respond accordingly to the amendment.

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Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, on what evidence would the CQC base the answers to those questions?

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner
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How easy will it be for members of the public to see this material when they are trying to be sure that they are going to a safe place?

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Baroness Wall of New Barnet Portrait Baroness Wall of New Barnet
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My Lords, I, too, welcome the announcement, and I am sure that the noble Earl is not surprised at the depth of feeling I have in welcoming it. I see this as a step towards regulation. He might baulk at that but, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, regulation is important for us, and I have been asking for it for a long time. However, I also have felt: what is it we are regulating in the sense of the absolute ultimate? So I think this gives us a very clear and descriptive way in which that can be measured.

I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said about “may”. That must be “must”, please, because “may” gives such a lot of flexibility that we may go back to exactly where we are right now if people are not required to carry this out. I very much agree that regulation helps in bringing value into the skill mix. My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to an aside by his colleague sitting alongside him. As somebody who is involved in skills heavily, whether it is NVQ level 1, 2 or 3—which I am sure my noble friend Lord Young was referring to—I know from the work that I have done with Skills for Care that the aim is that between level 2 and 3 will be competent level because obviously it depends very much on what people start with.

A final point, which the noble Lord, Lord Willis, picked up on and which we have in industry as well, is how we measure the skills and experience that people already have when we try to ascertain where they fit in. One of the dispiriting things that we find elsewhere is that, when people are asked to take a level 2 or 3, no recognition is made of what they have already gained while they have been doing the job. Skills for Care knows how to cope with that in the way that the skills levels are drawn up.

I thank the noble Earl very much. I spoke before about being tedious. I am sure that the way in which he has pursued this issue has nothing to do with me or other people being tedious; it is because he has a belief in it.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl the Minister for what he has said. I think I have probably been more of a pain than anybody on this subject. I thank the noble Earl very much for the assurances that he has given.

I have one or two very quick questions. He knows that I have a thing about Skills for Care and Skills for Health. Who is going to decide the membership of those groups? I am concerned that in teaching skills each individual care worker will want to have the background knowledge to support their skill. It is no good just teaching someone a simple skill without having the knowledge behind it. It reminded me that 63 years ago I was a St John Ambulance cadet. I did an elementary first-aid course where a doctor taught elementary anatomy, physiology and treatment of first aid. I then went on to home nursing and was taught by a registered nurse how to look after patients in the home, provide good nutrition and prevent bed sores. I think probably what I knew at the age of 11 is more than what some of our healthcare professionals know today. What will be the professional input into Skills for Health and Skills for Care? Who will do the syllabus, the curriculum and the teaching? Presumably Health Education England and the NMC will give the backing to that. If we could have that assurance, it would keep me quiet for a little longer.

Lord Warner Portrait Lord Warner
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My Lords, I also thank the Minister for his persistence within Whitehall in actually getting progress in this area. I think we all feel that he has put a lot of personal effort into it and deserves a great deal of credit.

If I may, I will ask a couple of slightly nerdy questions. I think that the issue of where this stands in the pecking order is vital. Is it down at NVQ levels 1 and 2? Is it up at level 3? How far away is it from the degree-level professional qualifications? In some ways, the title that has been given to this rather diminishes its standing up the food chain, so to speak. A certificate of fundamental care sounds a bit basic, and I am not quite sure what signals are given about the level that Health Education England should strive for in overseeing this particular work. A lot more work needs to be done on that.

Perhaps I may also pick up the point that my noble friend Lord Hunt hinted at. At the end of the day, if employers are to make this operate, they need some kind of register of who has the certificate. They also need to know what happens when they fire somebody and take disciplinary action against someone who has this certificate. Who do they tell? That seems a quite critical issue, because this is a very large workforce and it would be quite surprising if each year we did not get a steady flow of bad cases where an employer has fired someone for a breach of good practice of one kind or another. This would all be set to nought if there was no record of where these cases of disciplinary action have been taken, and people with a certificate were still floating around the system when they have actually been released by an employer for poor practice.

Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Wednesday 9th October 2013

(10 years, 7 months ago)

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Baroness Gardner of Parkes Portrait Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
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My Lords, I was most interested to hear the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and I agreed with every word, but I do think the time limit specified would not be right and I strongly support Amendment 27. However, there are other aspects of this care issue that we have not really thought about.

One that is covered in Amendment 27 is about the well-being of carers. I find it very disturbing that a woman I know who lives in with a person needing pretty comprehensive care every Saturday and Sunday and stays overnight on both nights, is appallingly paid for this because she is self-employed. I said to her that I could not believe she was earning so little when it is such a very important job and so very time consuming. I told her I would look on the internet to see what she is entitled to as a minimum wage. It turns out that there is no minimum wage for a self-employed person. That quite stunned me; there is a great reservoir of people who would be willing to take on self-employed caring positions and do them for quite long periods, not rushing people, but not at her rate of pay, which worked out at a little over £2 an hour for all the hours she was there. I suggested that, since she had done training in care, she should work instead for the people who provide a service for the local authority. She followed that up and it turned out that she would not earn much more, because they are not paid for travelling time. Unless the organisation improved so that her two, three, four or 10 jobs—whatever it is—were almost next door to one another, the unpaid travelling time would constitute much more of her day than the time actually caring for people.

The other point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, is that it is more than just physical care. We have heard much in recent days about people’s extreme loneliness, how they can go almost for days with hardly a word with anyone. That is a most essential thing in life, to feel that you have not been abandoned. The woman in the television report talked about taking your coat off, making your booking and going through it all, and how you are left with 10 minutes in the middle and then you book in a final 10 minutes to reverse everything. That is exactly what I remember from when I was chairman of local social services 30 years ago; that was exactly the same problem then.

These are not new problems; because there are so many more older people who need more care, and there is more awareness, with people wanting to stay in their own homes, this problem has grown, and we do not have the solutions to match the need. I strongly support the emphasis on the well-being of carers, which is mentioned in Amendment 27—that is important. People should feel that they are doing a worthwhile job and that what they are doing is helping other people. They should also be reasonably remunerated for it. There is so much that we would all support; I feel that all noble Lords in this Chamber want to see more help and more efficiently used help. Amendment 27 in particular covers a lot, but whatever offers can be made, so much the better.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton (CB)
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My Lords, I apologise for not having heard the first part of the speech made by my noble friend Lady Meacher; I can only say how much I agree with her. In the past nine weeks, while the carer was away, I had the personal experience of doing two weeks’ full-time caring. I timed waking up, giving the medication, getting breakfast, rushing up to do my post while she was having her breakfast, and then attending to her personal care and getting her dressed. It took an hour and a half, every day, and that was just the morning.

On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, the minimum quality standards in the noble Earl’s amendment set a good standard. However, that needs to be supported by an assessment and care programme. There needs to be a proper assessment of what is required in terms of the total care, not just the minimum. We have a system for some of our residents in the retirement development where I live, where prevention to admission to hospital is done by an assessment of how much time care is required. Two people come from the unit—a nurse and a physiotherapist—and fully assess the patient. If there is a proper care programme, that gives the time element. Amendment 25 says “excluding travel time” and that a visit should not take less than 30 minutes. It is difficult to be so prescriptive, but if that was according to the care plan, it might go a long way.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Portrait Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
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My Lords, Amendment 151 is in my name. This is a very important group that goes right to the heart of our debates about the quality of care that is being given to many vulnerable people. You cannot distinguish the quality of care from the way in which care workers themselves are treated. I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, on that.

In Committee I quoted from a Unison survey called Time to Care, and I will quote one or two statistics from it. In this survey, 79.1% of the staff surveyed said that they had to rush work or leave one care visit early to go to another. Some 56% earned between £6.08 and £8 per hour. The majority do not get set wages. Their turnover is very high: 57.8% of those surveyed were not paid for travelling time between visits. That is not the foundation for providing good-quality, comprehensive and continuous care.

We know that many people on these so-called zero-hour contracts have had to sacrifice time with their children in order to be available when their employer requires them to be—even if there is no work. Others are required to work exclusively for one employer with no guarantee that they work enough hours to pay the bills. The Opposition believe that employers ought to be banned from insisting that zero-hour workers be available even when there is no guarantee of any work. We should stop zero-hour contracts that require workers to work exclusively for one business, and we should end the misuse of those contracts where employees in practice work regular hours over a sustained period.

The issue of how care workers are treated and employed is directly linked to the arguments of the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Greengross, about 15-minute care visits. There is no doubt that there is widespread concern about the impact of local authorities setting what can seem to many to be arbitrary limits in the time allowed for care. I do not necessarily go along with the amendment sponsored by the Leonard Cheshire organisation, but the argument that it raises about care workers being asked to provide personal care, including supporting service users to dress, bathe, eat and go to the bathroom in a timeframe that simply does not allow dignity or respect, seems powerful.

Equally, I have noted the comments of the president of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, who cautions against taking a broad-brush approach in terms of the time that should be given to each client. The association agrees with Leonard Cheshire Disability that 15 minutes is not long enough to allow some homecare tasks to be done, but it says that there is a need for some flexible and truly personal approach, so that each person can be assessed and provided with the appropriate care. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, made a powerful point that if one seeks to place in legislation a minimum number of minutes, the risk is that it would not meet some people’s needs. However, the problem is that if one starts to define it in legislation, it might become the maximum. That seems to be one of the great dangers.

That is why we need to look carefully at the noble Earl’s two amendments. I appreciate the fact that he has come back to your Lordships’ House with some amendments which seek to deal with the substance of the issues that we are talking about. In essence, they say that local authorities, in promoting the effective operation of a market, must first have regard to,

“the importance of fostering a workforce whose members are able to ensure the delivery of high quality services”,

which is in Amendment 24; and in Amendment 27 they must have regard to,

“the importance of promoting the well-being of adults … with needs for care and support and the well-being of carers in its area”.

The question for us is whether that is enough. I rather doubt it. That a local authority “must have regard to” does not seem a particularly strong message to local authorities. Where is the beef in that? Where is the leverage to make local authorities do the right thing in a context, which we must recognise, where they are extremely pressurised in relation to resources?

The reason why I tabled Amendment 151 is that, given that it is difficult in legislation to prescribe the kind of behaviour that we want from local authorities—for the reasons that we have already debated and which the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, illustrated effectively —one way to deal with this issue is through the regulatory system, as I said in Committee. Noble Lords will know that later in the Bill we will discuss the Care Quality Commission and already in the current Bill it states:

“The Commission must, in respect of such English local authorities as may be prescribed … conduct reviews of the provision of such adult social services provided or commissioned by the authorities as may be prescribed”.

There is an opportunity for the Government to say that the CQC will take this on as a major responsibility, to review, monitor and, in some cases, take effective regulatory action, if they believe that the action of those people providing care, either in terms of how they have been commissioned by local authorities or by self-funders, is inadequate. However, the problem with the clause is that there is no guarantee that that is going to happen, because all we are doing is essentially giving the Government regulation-making powers. There is no certainty that this approach will be prescribed.

Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Monday 29th July 2013

(10 years, 9 months ago)

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Lord Skelmersdale Portrait Lord Skelmersdale
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My Lords, I failed to speak at Second Reading and I have failed to speak throughout the Committee stage. However, I believe that this amendment is very important, especially, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said, the introductory subsection thereof. I emphasise that this is not a Second Reading speech. However, if I had spoken at Second Reading, I would have reminded my noble friend Lord Howe on the Front Bench of my long standing view that it will never really work until we have a combined health and social care budget. If we did have it, most of the amendment would be unnecessary.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and agree with what all the other speakers have said. I remind noble Lords that when care pathways were introduced by the previous Government end-of-life care was not a pathway. The noble Lord, Lord Darzi, listened to a group of hospice workers. They said that they very rarely saw a death in a surgical ward and that they believed that we should look at a care pathway for end of life. What has been said today indicates that we need to concentrate on bringing together health and social care, bringing together social workers and health staff and, above all, seeking the choice of patients. As has already been said, most patients wish to live in their own surroundings and the end-of-life care pathway would take care of not only the person whose life is ending but also the relatives and family around them. I suggest that we think about how we progress the care pathway for end of life.

Baroness Wheeler Portrait Baroness Wheeler
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My Lords, we on these Benches are grateful to my noble friend Lord Warner and the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for bringing forward these amendments which ensure that end-of-life care is discussed in the context of the Bill. The Government have confirmed to the Joint Committee that primary legislation is not required for the introduction of the proposed new palliative care funding system or free end-of-life care once the Bill is passed. It is right to seek up to date information on the progress of the end-of-life care pilots and the proposed timescale for the publication of the regulations and consultation, if the April 2015 deadline for any new systems is to be met.

The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, endorses the Joint Committee recommendation that assessment of the need for the care and support of an adult who is terminally ill should be treated as urgent by the local authority. We fully support that. As Marie Curie Cancer support says, people get stuck in hospital at the end of life because the system cannot move quickly enough to get a care package for alternative care in place. It is established good practice in some authorities to fast track assessment of people not covered by NHS continuing care. It is a very fundamental requirement for people who are terminally ill and should be a duty reinforced in the Bill.

There is also a strong argument for joining up access to social care and support with the DS1500 system for quick accessing of welfare benefits such as DLA, although it is recognised that some of the degenerative diseases such as motor neurone disease may not be easily dealt with in this way. Will the Minister advise the House of the Government’s view on this, and what work is being undertaken to ensure that benefits and the care and support system work in a more integrated way for terminally ill patients? It is now six years on from the introduction of the 2008 End of Life Care Strategy to help people have the end-of-life care and support they need, in the words of the Nuffield Trust,

“beyond the gates of the acute hospital setting”.

The strategy has made a vital contribution to increasing the profile within the NHS and social care of end-of-life care through such excellent programmes as the NHS End of Life Care, the Marie Curie Delivering Choice Programme and the 2009 Dying Matters campaign to tackle the taboo on discussing death and dying. However, as my noble friend has shown, progress on providing real choice for people to die in the place they want to, whether that is in their home, at a hospice, nursing home or in hospital, if that is where they can receive the best palliative and nursing care appropriate for their condition or personal circumstances, has been frustrating and disappointing.

The current main focus of palliative and end-of-life care is still on cancer patients and hospices, but even then, Macmillan Cancer Support research shows that 91% of cancer patients in England who die in hospital wanted to die elsewhere, with 65% wanting to die in their own homes. Only 29% of people with cancer are able to be at home when they die. The amendment of my noble friend Lord Warner seeks to specify in the Bill that regulations may include the right for an NHS patient to die in the place they regard as home or their normal residence. As he readily acknowledges, this can be achieved only if end-of-life care is integrated across the NHS, local councils and hospices, and if it is properly funded. His case for an integrated service for free end-of-life care for terminally ill people who are likely to die within six months is a convincing one.

Macmillan’s research among health and social care professionals shows that 97% identify the lack of financial integration between the services as a key barrier to people receiving the care they need at the end of life. As the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, reminded us, the Nuffield’s and other research projects point strongly to the cost-effectiveness and potential savings that could be achieved with greater access to social care and reduced hospital admissions at the end of life. The Nuffield research also found that the use of social care currently varies between local authorities and health conditions—for example, people with dementia, falls and stroke use considerably more social care in community settings than those with cancer, probably because that is where they are already being cared for before terminal illness has been diagnosed. Individuals with the highest social care costs tend to have lower average hospital costs.

We fully recognise how crucial the seven adult palliative care funding pilots are to mapping and understanding current patterns and resource use across health and social care at end of life, and to collecting the vital data from which the costs of an integrated end-of-life care system can be properly assessed. These data span across care provided by the NHS, voluntary and private sector in both acute and community settings. The final data analysis report for the adult pilots and the consortium pilot for children’s palliative care services is due in June 2014, and the Government are committed to introduce a new per patient funding system for palliative care by April 2015. Can the Minister update the House on the progress being made under the pilots, the emerging key themes and whether the timescale has been impacted by the recent transfer of responsibility to NHS England? I understand that there is a problem with progress and that the pilots have only recently been provided with guidance on social care data collection—for example, as regards where data are underdeveloped and will probably take longest to collect. Is the Minister confident that the timescale for pilot reports, evaluation, policy decision and consultation can be met in time for implementation and that the Government will make a decision on free end-of-life care by the end of this Parliament?

Finally, two further issues need to be added to the debate. First, my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley reminded us of the recent Carers UK Carers Week survey which shows that much more support is needed for carers to help them plan for the end-of-life care of the person for whom they are caring. Many do not know how to plan for the death of a loved one and how to look ahead to life when caring ends in terms of returning to or taking up work, making social contacts and managing financially. My noble friend was right to underline how crucial it is to get this support right.

Secondly, it is as well to remember the findings of last month’s report from Public Health England and Marie Curie Cancer Care on palliative and end-of-life care for black, Asian and minority groups in the UK. It is a timely reminder that, with black, Asian and BME groups aged 65 and over set to treble in the next 25 years, there is urgent need to address the reasons for their low levels of use of palliative and end-of-life care services. The report identifies major problems, including lack of knowledge about services, misunderstandings, mistrust and lack of cultural sensitivity on the part of service providers. How are the Government addressing this issue and including it in their work to assess future service needs and funding? Are the pilots collecting data on these vital issues?

People with Learning Disabilities: Health Inequalities

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Thursday 18th July 2013

(10 years, 10 months ago)

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Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Hollins for this timely debate and for her contribution over the years on the issue of learning disabilities. I declare an interest as a retired general nurse. Not holding any qualification in mental handicap, as it was then referred to, I have limited experience with learning disabilities, mainly associated with relocating patients from the large hospitals in the 1970s until the late 1980s. However, that experience was one that has stayed with me in terms of demonstrating that people with learning disabilities and their families are a group who require a range of specialties to come together to ensure that their quality of life is the best possible.

Although this debate is asking the Minister what steps the Government are taking to address health inequalities, it is difficult just to debate health, as has already been illustrated today, because so much is dependent on the part played by education, social care and families. The opportunity has now been given to us, with the new Health and Social Care Act and the Care Bill, to develop healthcare pathways further. We should take this opportunity to ensure connection and communication through the education system, social care and specialist mental health care and that learning disability staff are involved in the total well-being of the individual and the family. Otherwise it is likely that there will be gaps which, in turn, may be detrimental to the general health of the individual with the learning disability.

It is now 65 years since the NHS was introduced with the assurance of free care for all at the point of delivery. During those 65 years, we have seen many developments for those suffering a learning disability, which have come step by step and usually following the unfortunate findings of inquiries into poor care, such as in Ely, Farleigh and Whittingham—all large hospitals that were found wanting in the delivery of care. In the 1970s, we abolished long-stay large hospitals and moved patients into the community, which was a big step towards a pathway for each individual that set a programme of care according to their needs. However, even within the 20 years since that move, we have cause for concern about small units that have failed in their delivery of care.

This confidential inquiry into premature death provides the opportunity to address the pathway for learning disabilities and for health and social care professionals, support workers, educationalists and families to contribute to the development of a meaningful, holistic pathway for every individual person with a learning disability. This surely demands a culture change and leadership, as well as offering a learning opportunity for all health and social care professionals and general educationalists to understand the philosophy of caring for those with a learning disability. It requires good communication links between all of those, with each of them understanding the overall philosophy and strategy of an integrated pathway for the individual. It is clear that this would be a large piece of work and would take time to be achieved. It will require all of the disciplines to be involved, as well as the families, who we know have had to fight a long battle to break down the barriers between all the involved agencies. There needs to be shared ownership of that responsibility—everyone has to ensure that the pathway is high quality and leads to people living as normal a life as possible with the appropriate support and with regular physical health checks.

Coming back to the confidential inquiry, I would make four points. The first is about health records, which has already been mentioned in detail by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I am sure that in this day and age it is not beyond the wit of any of us to see that it would be possible to get a health record that can not only integrate the issues relating to the handicap but attach a personal profile to the health action plan that could be implemented and given quickly to the person and to the family.

Secondly, there is advanced healthcare planning. I suggest that the Government need to give further guidance once long-term problems are diagnosed. There should be a trigger for the plans to be instigated and a risk assessment and a crisis-point plan drawn up. These health plans could easily be put together as long as there is communication between all aspects and that the medical side is aware of the way forward.

My noble friend Lord Rix has already mentioned palliative care and the dreadful time that the patient in Lewisham experienced. The confidential inquiry identified some problems with end of life care. It is clear that palliative care teams need to be supported during the time that palliative care is being provided to a learning disability patient. A specialist learning disability nurse should be available to those teams when this is required. At least two patients in every hospital have a learning disability. Of these some may have profound multiple learning disabilities. The role of the registered learning disability nurse is important in giving guidance in hospitals on the specialist support of patients. Can the Government ensure that workforce planning outcomes include a calculation for the roles of nurses qualified in learning disabilities to be available for such teams?

If the noble Earl agrees that this should be the way forward, what steps will the Government take to ensure that that NHS England, Public Health England, local authorities and professional regulators develop the curriculum and standards for health and social care professionals and general educationalists, Healthwatch, well-being boards, and charities such as Mencap to meet the requirements for the best possible pathway for healthy living within the capabilities of the individuals suffering a learning disability and their families? This would include a model to maintain general good health and the reduction of the rate of premature deaths as is suggested by the inquiry.

If the philosophy and strategy are clear for the person suffering from a learning disability, we can then be assured that all aspects of their life will be taken care of, with the support in place where necessary. This in turn will be effective for other members of the family who, over time, as experience tells us, have had to overcome tremendous difficulties through sheer lack of professionals understanding the situation being described or the damage that can occur, including breakdown to the family unit.

NHS: Keogh Review

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Tuesday 16th July 2013

(10 years, 10 months ago)

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Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
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We will now see follow-up action by the CQC, not least in the area of trust governance where the quality of that governance has been called into question by Sir Bruce. That will be done rapidly. It is by no means the case that governance is defective in every trust, but question marks have been placed on some and it is important that assessments are made, not just by the CQC, but by the Trust Development Authority and Monitor as the two bodies responsible for overseeing the provider section. It may be that the CQC will be asked to carry out further work, but we are looking, for the time being, to the TDA and Monitor to do that.

Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, how did Bruce Keogh’s team determine whether staffing levels were short, inadequate or low, as was mentioned in the Statement, when we have not actually got a base against which to measure staffing levels? We raised this all the way through the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill and we have been raising it during the passage of the Care Bill. What was the evidence for low staffing?

Earl Howe Portrait Earl Howe
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I know that this is a concern of the noble Baroness and I understand that. She will know that work is going on to try to frame better rules of thumb and guidance on staffing numbers. When Sir Bruce looked at this area he had very closely in mind the precept that Robert Francis gave in his report when he said:

“To lay down in a regulation, ‘Thou shalt have N number of nurses per patient’ is not the answer. The answer is, ‘How many patients do I need today in this ward to treat these patients?’ You need to start, frankly, from the patient, as you do with everything”.

That was the basis of Sir Bruce’s assessment on that issue.

Care Bill [HL]

Baroness Emerton Excerpts
Tuesday 9th July 2013

(10 years, 10 months ago)

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Baroness Emerton Portrait Baroness Emerton
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My Lords, I support the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Best. I also support what my noble friend Lord Rix said about closing the large institutions and providing the necessary housing. The reason the necessary housing could be found, either through charities or local authorities, was that it was clearly spelled out in government policy. I therefore strongly support the need for this provision to be in the Bill. Without that background, I would have found the job of closing two large institutions extremely difficult, because there was resistance from local authorities and local communities to providing suitable accommodation. However, as it was government policy, we were able to persuade and influence the local authorities to do it. Therefore, I support the amendments in this group.

Lord Campbell-Savours Portrait Lord Campbell-Savours
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My Lords, I will speak primarily to Amendment 88, in the wider context of Clause 9, and put an idea to the Minister that dawned on me during conversations with local authorities that are faced with problems in this area. Clause 9 deals with the assessment of an adult’s needs for care and support. It states:

“Where it appears to a local authority that an adult may have needs for care and support, the authority must,”

carry out an assessment. The clause goes on to list what the assessment must include. Amendment 88 would add,

“housing options to contribute to the achievement of those outcomes”.

What struck me as an outsider looking into these matters is that, irrespective of the changes to which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, referred, problems still arise where elderly people—perhaps in their 80s, 90s or whatever—have to transfer out of their homes, which they may well own, or from hospital into some kind of care environment, perhaps a nursing home. I wonder whether it would be possible for that process to be made more seamless in circumstances where a local authority took on the responsibility of marketing—I shall come on to what I mean by “marketing”—the home for sale, clearing the home and making all the arrangements for the transfer of that resident, be it from their home or from hospital, into a care environment.

It may be that a local authority could offer a package. At the moment, that package, in part, is offered by some of the charities. I have spoken to charities, such as Age Concern, which carry out various components in this process of transfer but I wonder whether money could be raised by local authorities through taking a proportion of the commission on the sale of properties by estate agents. In other words, a local authority would advertise within its area and estate agents could tender for the right to handle the properties for which the local authority took responsibility in this process of seamlessly transferring people from their homes to a caring environment.

As estate agents would not necessarily know whether they would get that business if it was organised in the wider market, if they knew they were going to get all the business provided by the local authority—in other words, that they would be the estate agent responsible for carrying out the process of transfer in a particular district—they might be prepared to share their commissions with the local authority because they had access to business which they might not otherwise have had. It would provide a revenue stream.

As we introduce amendment after amendment to the Bill, I keep thinking, “Where is the money coming from?”. It has to come from somewhere. It is all right Parliament passing legislation placing all these new responsibilities on authorities but, at the end of the day, the local authority has to find a way of raising the revenue. If local authorities could somehow attach themselves to the revenue from the sale of houses, it might well provide an income stream—and what better way to do so than to provide a package for the seamless transfer of the elderly into a more caring environment? I put it simply as a proposition that the Minister might wish to consider over time.