European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, 10.17 million people live under devolved Administrations in the UK. They want the best deal for Britain, whichever way they voted. They expect their devolved Governments to argue on their behalf. They did not vote to lose powers. The concern in Welsh and Scottish government is so great that both bodies have unanimously voted not to sign the legislative consent order for the Bill. Why? Because they both want to see a withdrawal Bill that works effectively while respecting devolution.

The devolution settlements are all based on a binary model, with some differences. Scotland’s model of reserved powers will also become the model in April under the new Wales Act 2017. The Sewel convention means that Parliament will not normally legislate in areas of devolved competence without the consent of the devolved legislatures. The word “normally” is important. The situation does not warrant that Parliament should legislate without the consent of the devolved Administrations. We are not in a crisis at war. Ignoring the refusal of devolved consent has never risen before; it is not needed now. The Bill requires careful, considered amendment.

The intersection of EU powers and those of the devolved Administrations has meant the latter’s legislation cannot be incompatible with EU law—a restriction on freedom or competence of legislation and policy-making that currently also applies to Westminster, and which will be lifted by the repeal of the European Communities Act 1972. It is not a question of powers coming back from Brussels, but a decision about where they will go as those restrictions are lifted. Wales and Scotland feel that as far as the effect of the Bill on the devolution settlement is concerned, restrictions on legislative competence in policy areas should be removed, as the Supreme Court said in the Miller case.

This Bill reads differently, however. It proposes changes that put new restrictions—a new set of shackles—on the legislative and executive competence of the devolved institutions, allowing the UK Government unilaterally to lock down opportunities to shape their own policies. There are many examples of policy areas where Scotland and Wales have diverged from Westminster. Take, for example, the charge on plastic bags, minimum unit pricing of alcohol, tobacco control measures at their outset, organ donation now and the different ways in which their health services are organised. The Bill, however, would give Ministers of the Crown powers to make corrections of retained EU law in areas of devolved competence without consultation with the devolved institutions. Such an ability to change an Act of the Scottish Parliament or of the National Assembly for Wales without any input from the legislature or Ministers answerable to it is clearly unacceptable.

The Joint Ministerial Committee with the devolved Governments must become statutory; it is currently not working well. There must be governance arrangements for a group that meets regularly, agrees its agenda well in advance and allows the devolved Administrations to initiate policy proposals. It must also contain a mechanism for the resolution of potential areas of legislative conflict early, without the need to go to the courts for interpretation of the law. Frameworks are also essential to ensure a common UK approach when needed, that respects the principles of the territorial constitution.

Clause 11, as drafted, does the exact opposite. Last September, Wales and Scotland suggested amendments—I have a copy of the letter written by their First Ministers to the Prime Minister. When this Bill went through the other place there were promises of government amendments but none materialised. In her helpful and warm opening speech, the noble Baroness the Leader of the House implied that the development of these amendments is proceeding well. Unfortunately, as of last night, neither the Cabinet Secretary for Finance in Wales, nor the Minister for UK Negotiations on Scotland’s Place in Europe from the Scottish Parliament could reflect such a positive view.

The constitutional implications are great. If the devolved Governments are forced—and I use the term advisedly—to push through the continuity bills that they have drafted in order to allow them to function effectively on behalf of their population, then we really will be faced with a constitutional crisis. Therefore, I ask the Minister for reassurance that amendments will not be sprung on us at the last minute and without adequate consultation with the devolved Administrations. We in this House must not be put in the invidious position of making decisions that run counter to good government arrangements between the Governments of the UK, and which concern over 10 million people. To borrow a phrase, “nation must speak unto its nations”.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [HL]

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Greengross (CB)]

My Lords, we all know that because of the profound changes since pension freedoms were introduced, retirement income decisions have become much more complex. From the age of 55 there are a greater number of options for using the pension pot, including taking the pension as cash, keeping the fund invested or purchasing an annuity. Accordingly, I welcome the broad drafting in this Bill of the objectives and functions of the single financial guidance body and, in particular, the recognition of provision of advice as well as guidance, and the continuation of the vital role played by the Money Advice Service in support of the financial capability strategy.

Financial decision-making is complex and retirees must consider their long-term, not just their short-term, retirement income needs. The SFGB needs to encourage this by ensuring that consumers understand the full range of options available, including the potential role of any housing wealth. Consideration of the potential role of housing wealth is already included in the pensions advice allowance, which allows people to withdraw £500 tax-free from their pension pots on up to three occasions, to pay for financial advice on their retirement. I welcome that inclusion and think it should be extended.

This means that pension income and the value of housing equity are considered alongside one another. Because some people will feel unable to afford, or be unwilling to pay for, such advice, it is crucial that free impartial guidance is available through the SFGB. The Equity Release Council’s White Paper, Equity Release Rebooted, estimates that over-55s in England possess about £1.8 trillion in housing wealth, and that is expected to double to £3.6 trillion by 2036. Meanwhile, the average value of a defined contribution pension in 2012-14 was £30,300. Research by the Equity Release Council estimates that while the average 55 to 64 year-old should have a pension pot of £123,000, they may only have an average of £30,200, indicating that a likely future need for supplementary retirement income is there, such as from housing wealth.

I would want not to push people into equity release but to look holistically at their assets. In one important area affecting retirement assets, the FCA’s prediction means that approximately 2.6 million interest-only mortgages will reach maturity over the next 30 years, with estimates that 48% of borrowers may not have enough money to fully repay their loan. It is not surprising that statistics from the council’s spring 2017 market report indicated that the use of property wealth to fund lifestyle and health in old age is growing rapidly, and is likely to continue to grow in the coming years.

In 2013, Demos estimated that the over-60s were holding unmortgaged housing wealth of £1.23 trillion; that figure would be significantly higher now. The Aviva Real Retirement Report suggested in 2016 that 46% of homeowners aged over 45— approximately 6 million households—see property as a key part of their retirement income planning, increasing to 58% among 45 to 54-year-olds. This is borne out by the Equity Release Council seeing a year-on-year equity release lending growth of £342 million. The average amount lent under an equity release policy during the second half of 2016 was very high, at £92,376 for lump-sum plans and £54,584 through drawdown plans, with an additional £37,751 reserved for future use.

I share the view of Age UK and many commentators that a saver withdrawing their pension pot should receive guidance, including on housing wealth, by default. But since that is the subject of a later amendment, I shall not discuss it any further here. In summary, as part of this wider landscape of helping people to preserve their lifestyles and well-being in retirement, a consideration of the important role of housing wealth should be an explicit part of the advice envelope proffered by the new body. I hope that that might be acceptable. I beg to move.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I support this amendment from my noble friend Lady Greengross because, as she has outlined, a lot of people have the majority of their wealth tied up in their property. The current equity release schemes are much more flexible than they used to be and contain a variety of safeguards. The Equity Release Council’s statement of principle, by which all the council members must abide, mandates that all equity release customers must receive independent financial advice. Can the Minister clarify whether all equity release schemes will fall under the FCA? I understand that currently it is only those from members who are part of the Equity Release Council, which means that we will potentially have twin-track standards going on for the customer.

The requirement for a solicitor to sign off the arrangement becomes particularly important when we look at the issues around mental capacity and coercion. When I was at the Equity Release Council’s annual meeting, I was quite shocked to hear from one person there who had been negotiating equity release with a client. She had a suspicion that something did not quite seem right and decided to visit the client without the client’s son present, at which point the client said, “I don’t really want to do this at all. My son’s pushing me to do it”. She had the sense to say, “That’s very simple. I am refusing the equity release, and I will write to you”, and she tore up the forms there and then.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, has the definition of cold calling been sought from the trading standards group of scambassadors who have been looking at all types of scams? It would be incredibly helpful to have that definition. I also wonder whether this amendment is too narrow as written. However, I congratulate the noble Baroness on using this opportunity to do something that desperately needs to be done. The amount of scamming is a scandal.

[Baroness Altmann]

My Lords, I refer to my Amendment 73, which attempts to define cold calling using many more words. That was in the context of banning cold calls for claims management companies. I do not claim that this is the correct version for cold calling.

Care Quality Commission Review: Deaths in the NHS

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank my noble friend for that question. Yes, national data are important, but we also have to remember that data can vary terrifically from region to region. Of course, collecting data is absolutely vital, and there will be national data, but we also need to ensure that the data are suitable for the particular area from where they have been collected.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, given the lamentably low involvement in investigations of families and others who loved the person who died, how will their experience be audited and monitored in future? As the Minister rightly said—I declare an interest as chairman of the National Mental Capacity Forum—such families often describe not being listened to during the period of illness prior to death, and then not being listened to around the time of death. Without auditing their experience of their involvement in investigations, there is a danger of it being tokenistic and that nothing will really change in the longer term, even though they have a great deal to offer. Will the Minister commit to involving some of the bereavement groups that might provide support and independent monitoring of people’s experiences, and undertake to catalogue centrally the reasons that emerge from such investigations? Only then will we understand if trends really are occurring across the country that need to be dealt with at national level, rather than allowing things to slip at local level.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

The noble Baroness, who is very experienced in these areas, makes an important point. The plan is certainly to publish the information quarterly, in accordance with the regulations that the Secretary of State is going to lay before the House, so that local patients and the public can see whether and where progress is being made. Alongside those data, evidence will be published of learning and action that are happening as a consequence of that information, and the information will be fed back to the NHS Improvement regime at a national level so that the whole of the NHS can learn more rapidly from individual incidents.

Policing and Crime Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, in Committee I endeavoured to remove the Government’s redefinition of “alcohol” in the Licensing Act 2003 to cover alcohol “in any state”. I was worried that that covered powdered and vaping alcohol and I sought to remove them from the redefinition. The Minister argued that we really needed to establish the legal status of powdered and vaping alcohol and that if my amendment was accepted, it would have left us still in an unclear position about the legal status of those products, and we needed clarity. I accepted her argument and suggested that the difficulty might be overcome if we decided to class powdered or vaping alcohol as class C substances under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 or prohibit their production, supply, import or export by an amendment to the Psychoactive Substances Act 2016. Either course of action would resolve the legal status and leave beyond any doubt where these two substances stood. Accordingly, I asked the Minister to remove Clause 117, which sought to cover alcohol in all forms, but she was not prepared to do that at that stage.

Today I have returned to the subject and have tabled an amendment which would no longer allow powdered or vaping alcohol to be classed under the 2003 Act; instead, they would fall under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. I will not repeat all the arguments I made at Second Reading and in Committee, in the light of what has been happening in America, where the number of states that have banned these substances has gone up from the 26 I mentioned when we discussed this subject previously to 32. Of particular interest is that they have now been banned in California. Governor Jerry Brown signed a Bill into law on 28 September. Of course, this is a state which on 8 November voted to legalise recreational marijuana. So California is prepared to legalise marijuana but will not permit powdered alcohol to be sold in the way that our Government will permit, if this clause remains.

How have we got to this position? As I understand it, there was a consultation in the summer in which the Home Office spoke primarily to representatives of the drinks industry, it pondered what it should do with these technological developments as they come along, and it was decided that it was better that they should be legalised for sale. For all the reasons I have advanced previously—you can take powdered alcohol anywhere, you can mix it with existing drinks, you can take it into prisons very easily, and so on—I urge the Government to think again before they move forward in this way. I ask the Minister to consider accepting the solution that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and I are offering. It is straightforward and very much in line with what is happening in the States and elsewhere.

Given all the problems we have with liquid alcohol and with drugs in prison, it is quite wrong to be legalising the sale of these substances. I believe the public would share that view. If they knew what we were debating today, they would be absolutely outraged that we are about to legalise these substances so that in due course people can be vaping alcohol and using the powder. In the hope that I have been as reasonable as I could be in trying to see the Minister’s point of view and have endeavoured to help her as best I can, I beg to move.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, it might help the House if I explain why the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, and I view this as quite such a dangerous substance and why it is quite different from alcohol in a liquid form, which one drinks. The reason is that powdered alcohol can be snorted, as can vaping alcohol. The problem is that it is then absorbed through the sinuses, directly through the blood-brain barrier, so that you get an immediate hit. You can get a very high hit in the brain with a very low blood-alcohol level because it has a direct route. If you drink a drink, as many of your Lordships probably will this evening, you will absorb it through the gut and it will go through the liver, where an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase partly metabolises it—it burns it up. It then goes into your bloodstream and then to your brain, so the amount getting to your brain will be reflected in a peripheral blood sample, which is where blood-alcohol levels are measured for driving and so on.

However, this powdered or vaping mechanism completely bypasses that. The problem is also that it is extremely difficult to detect, but the rapid high is much higher and faster than one would get even with a schnapps-type drink that might be downed quickly. That effect is particularly dangerous. In an important study done in the US, more than 1,800 undergraduate students were interviewed and 23% indicated that they would use the product if available. Of those, 62%—that is, just about two-thirds—also indicated a likelihood of misusing the product; that misuse was higher among Caucasian students and those who were already hazardous drinkers, who were significantly more likely to use it. We have tabled this amendment because we think this formulation is particularly dangerous and acts like a dangerous drug.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken on Report, I should quickly declare that I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

The question of powdered or vaping alcohol was discussed in Committee, as my noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe mentioned, and his amendment would now classify it under the Misuse of Drugs Act. I must confess that I had never heard of powdered or vaporised alcohol before we debated this in Committee on 9 November. I have now of course heard that this alcohol can be put into fruit juice and other soft drinks; apparently, it can be baked and put into a whole range of products. I also thought that vaping was an alternative to smoking and had no idea that you can now apparently vape alcohol. I think we all agree that alcohol is a mood-altering substance, so I hope that the Minister can respond to these important issues. I take entirely the medical evidence given by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on how these products can get into your body and how quickly they can react. It is important that we look at this carefully and, if it needs to be regulated properly, at how that can be done.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

My Lords, I remind the House that Clause 120 amends the definition of alcohol in Section 191 of the Licensing Act 2003. The current definition of alcohol covers spirits, wine, beer, cider or any other fermented, distilled or spirituous liqueur. The clause adds “(in any state)” to the definition; the purpose of this is to ensure that all alcohol, no matter in which form it is sold, is covered by the requirements of the 2003 Act.

Amendment 171A seeks to exempt powdered and vaporised alcohol from the 2003 Act and instead to control it as a class C drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. Controlling powdered and vaporised alcohol as a class C drug would, in effect, prohibit the possession, production and distribution of these forms of alcohol.

Alcohol is a legal substance and the Government’s approach is to minimise the harm caused by alcohol by regulating its sale and supply. The 2003 Act seeks to reduce harm through promotion of the licensing objectives. These are: the prevention of crime and disorder; public safety; the prevention of public nuisance; and the protection of children from harm. The 2003 Act also contains a number of criminal offences, including selling alcohol to a child under the age of 18 and selling alcohol without a licence.

The Government believe that the focus on the four licensing objectives provides sufficient safeguards for the sale of alcohol. It would be contradictory and disproportionate to regulate the sale of liquid alcohol but make alcohol illegal when it is provided in another form, such as powder or vapour. The classification of harmful drugs in the 1971 Act is predicated on an assessment of their respective harms and in accordance with recommendations made by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. The 1971 Act places a duty on the Secretary of State to consult the advisory council before bringing a substance within the controls provided for in that Act.

Quite apart from questions over the merits or otherwise of controlling powdered and vaping alcohol in this way, the absence of such a consultation having been carried out means it would be inappropriate to amend the 1971 Act in the manner proposed by this amendment. The Government are not aware of any evidence that the harms posed by powdered and vaporised alcohol are such that it is necessary to consider controlling it as an illegal drug. Powdered and vaporised alcohol are not substances of which the misuse is having or capable of having harmful effects sufficient to constitute a social problem, as is the test under the 1971 Act. Unless and until there is evidence to suggest that these forms of alcohol are meeting that test, I believe that a regulatory approach is the appropriate one.

Clause 120 will ensure that the four licensing objectives continue to be met despite innovations in alcohol products and that the public, especially children, continue to be protected from irresponsible sales of alcohol. On that basis, I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, will she undertake to ask the ACMD to put this issue on its agenda and keep a watchful eye on it in the future? I declare an interest in that I was a member of the ACMD when khat was being looked at.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. Home Office officials have discussed powdered alcohol with the Department of Health and Public Health England and are very much keeping it under review. They may well have to do things at a later date but, for now, they are just keeping a watchful eye on it.

Deregulation Bill

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd February 2015 Lords Chamber

I suggest to the Government that they have the chance to run a trial here in a limited area with willing victims who want to operate it. At the end of the day, we could end up with a win-win situation for everyone concerned. If that works well, it could then be extended over a wider front so that we could endeavour to meet the desire that so many organisations believe is desperately needed. I hope the Minister will respond as positively as he can and give answers to some of these points that have been made incorrectly in defence of the current position by other Ministers. Otherwise, I will come back again at Third Reading. I beg to move.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, for introducing this group of amendments so clearly. They are amendments to which I wanted to add my name because alcohol is putting an intolerable strain on the NHS. There is no getting away from that.

We have 1 million hospital admissions a year related to alcohol. We all know that there are peak times in A&E departments when alcohol problems swamp departments. It is not at all times of the day but we also know that other parts of the NHS are put under chronic and severe strain because they have to deal with alcohol-related diseases. In fact, there are about 60 different medical conditions where excessive consumption significantly causes morbidity and premature death in the UK.

I declare that I am president of the BMA. At a recent BMA meeting a breast surgeon came up and begged me—I do not exaggerate—to do something about excessive alcohol consumption because he has seen more and more middle-aged women who have chronically high levels of alcohol consumption and then develop obesity and breast cancer. He said it is reaching epidemic proportions and that he has seen a significant change over recent times.

I return to the topic of the amendments. As well as the strain on the NHS the cost to the whole country is significant. The cost to the NHS has been estimated to be almost £4 billion a year, which equates to about £120 a year per taxpayer. The overall cost to the country is nearer £26 billion a year, which is between fivefold and sixfold, so I have estimated that this is probably about £750 per taxpayer, because we do not have a really comprehensive and effective alcohol policy at the moment.

The ban on selling alcohol below cost price, which came into force last May, is not, as far as we have been able to see, significantly reducing drinkers’ mean annual consumption. It is not really surprising. It was calculated that mean annual consumption would decrease by less than 1% overall. Minimum unit pricing has been shown in different models to have an effect and it stops higher alcohol-content drink being sold disproportionately cheaply and you get a more balanced spread of the way drinks are purchased and taken. The relative underselling of cider against beer, where cider has a higher alcohol content, becomes balanced out and the high consumption of spirits in particular, which have a very high unit content, then becomes spread across the spectrum of price.

It has been suggested that minimum unit price would unfairly impact responsible drinkers. There does not seem to be any strong evidence for that at all, but it will impact on irresponsible drinkers. It has been estimated that a minimum unit price of 50p would have major benefits. For example, it has been estimated that there would be more than 97,000 fewer hospital admissions a year, more than 42,000 fewer crimes, nearly 30,000 fewer cases of unemployment and more than 442,000 fewer episodes of absenteeism from work, which is frequently an alcohol-related problem. As we all know, it tends to occur on the days after high days, holidays and weekends. The saving on healthcare costs alone has been estimated to be £1,591 million a year. That is a significant amount of healthcare funding that can then be diverted to meet the needs of others.

There has also been evidence that increasing the price of alcohol reduces the rate of alcohol-related harms including violence and crime, deaths from liver cirrhosis, other drug use, sexually transmitted infections and risky sexual behaviour, as well as drink-driving deaths.

The impact of drinking is not only on the individual, of course, but also on all those who are bereaved, such as children who lose parents at a premature age. It also affects those who are on the receiving end of abuse and of violence and high alcohol consumption is also associated with high rates of suicide.

As a doctor, I fail to see why any Government have not grasped what would seem to be a fairly straightforward solution to a major social problem by implementing minimum unit pricing so that responsible drinkers could buy their drinks as they do now but those who want to buy to binge—and who then end up in A&E incurring large costs or damaging others through their irresponsible behaviour—would be deterred from being able to do so. The chronic overconsumption we are seeing in today’s world would also be affected because if you make alcohol a bit too expensive you build in a deterrent to drinking too much.

Armed Forces: Housing

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, part of the problem has been the sheer number of moves that service families have been making, particularly in the Army. With the return of our forces from Germany and the changes in the forces structures that we are implementing, we hope that there will be less frequent and fewer rapid moves, which would enable service families to be consulted a good deal more widely.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

Can the Minister tell us how many of the service family houses are fitted with carbon monoxide alarms, given the danger of carbon monoxide poisoning, particularly in poorly maintained buildings? We know that some of these buildings are poorly maintained. If the family move in and put the heating straight on, that may be the night when they get carbon monoxide poisoning.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

That is a very good question, and I will of course have to write to the noble Baroness about that. I do not have the accurate, detailed information.

Social Policy

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester for securing this debate, and I add my compliments to the noble Lord, Lord Wei, for an outstanding maiden speech. It put me in mind of probably the best advice that I was ever given, which was from my father: if you want to change the world, you need to get to the top but not lose your principles on the way. The noble Lord’s speech showed us that he holds many high principles and is bringing them to enrich this House, so I congratulate him.

Preparing for this debate set me thinking about boundaries and where the responsibility for them lies. The Government—indeed, this House—make laws, and those laws send a message to our society. They set the boundaries of what, within our own nation, we can and cannot do. Most are protective. Some are permissive but they often have a protective element to them, so in providing permission they sometimes also protect people who previously did not have protection. The Civil Partnership Act has done just that, and in providing permission it has also provided protection. I exclude taxation legislation from those comments, I might say.

We then have the boundaries of society, which are where society interprets in practice the laws that are there. Those in authority, particularly health and education, and leaders of all sorts, civic and religious, lead that interpretation at a local level. Then, within our communities, we have the actions within those boundaries of the individual human being. The community and the culture of that community define how we express ourselves and how we express our emotions and our emotional response to things. Part of our human being is our human emotional response. Emotion crosses all those boundaries of sex, creed, religion, race and so on but its expression varies by context and by the permissions or prohibitions of the culture within which it is set.

We live in an interconnected society with relationships—and relationships are key. The right reverend Prelate spoke about autonomy and it is worth thinking for a moment about the meaning of that word, which is self-governance. If we talk about the autonomy of a community it is about the self-governance of that community. If we talk about the autonomy of an individual, it is about the self-governance of that individual. It means that we have to take into consideration the effects of actions on other people. Autonomy does not mean for a community, individual or even a society, “I want therefore I get”. It brings with it a whole set of responsibilities. The abuse of boundaries endangers others. We see that sometimes with the way that the elderly are frightened of youth.

It has been said that we have a demographic time bomb. It is a phrase I do not like because it completely undervalues the enormous potential of an elderly population. We do not value their contribution and yet they have an enormous amount to offer in an interconnected way. Projects such as the University of the Third Age have built and encouraged those intersupportive networks that allow people to help each other, to telephone each other and take people out of loneliness. They eat together, debate, maintain fitness, they are concerned and active and then, when someone in the community has a problem, the others come together in a completely informal, voluntary rota that provides an enormous amount of support that I fear we just do not value as a society because we class them all together as a bunch of elderlies with zimmer frames and so on—with judgmental statements that do not value their worth.

How do we, as a society, harness their worth within our communities? One of the problems is that we have become risk-averse rather than risk-intelligent in the way that we respond to the way that one person responds to another. We have become so worried about child abuse that we have forgotten the importance of the elderly person to a troubled youngster—a person who can listen to the youngster, soak up their concerns and provide wisdom in a non-judgmental way. Perhaps such people are the only ones a young person can confide in. They work in lieu of an extended family now and these elderly members of our society bring their own personal history which is enriching. That personal history can act as an inspirational role model to the youngster who is devoid of aspiration and devoid of a role model and support.

I would like to take a moment to think about the children in our society, because they are also often forgotten when they are really in need. It is estimated that in school-age children, one in 29 is bereaved of a parent or sibling and one in 16 is bereaved of a significant other. That means that in every school class will be one child bereaved of a parent or sibling and two bereaved of a significant other, yet that is something that we brush under the carpet and ignore. We know that those children are at higher risk of depression and of underachieving academically and, sadly, at higher risk of things such as drug abuse and falling into crime, teenage pregnancy and alcoholism further down the line. It is that other army, of elderly people in the community, who can provide the support by marking the anniversary of the significant person’s death with a card, a visit or a word. This means that the person who was of value to you is recognised as also having been of value in our community. Whoever they were, the intrinsic worth of the individual is recognised and this allows the child to move forward.

I worry that we do not harness this enormous potential enough. We somehow have to discourage the stories of the individual, which can be inspirational, being used to harbour bitterness in trying to determine identity. It is those stories that can inspire the social capital that the noble Lord, Lord Wei, spoke about. Sadly, sometimes, things seem to go wrong and we talk about a failure to communicate within our communities or society. However, I wonder whether it is more a failure to listen than a failure to give information. When you talk and listen to people who feel that a system has failed them, it turns out that they were not listened to—they were spoken at. Perhaps we have to relearn those more basic ways of communicating—that is, to listen with our ears and use our eyes, noses, touch and every sense of our being—to understand and develop the interconnectedness that has been alluded to by some of the previous speakers in this debate.

The most reverend Primate spoke about dignity. Indeed, “dignity” has been defined as having a sense of personal worth. We know when we have lost our dignity. We take it for granted that we will have it. We know when it has been taken away from us by not being treated with respect, not being listened to and not being treated as a human being of worth. A grumpy, snappy response or a dismissive tone can make somebody who is already vulnerable feel that they are being a nuisance and a burden. While we talk about the role of government and communities, the effect must filter right down to the interaction of one person with another and individual respect. However, the tone is set by that of the Government in setting the rules and the framework.

It has been said that the mark of a civilised society is how it cares for its vulnerable, which seems to be a pretty good definition. As we discuss this and face a new Government, we face a society with many youngsters who have poverty of aspiration. There is real physical poverty in our midst. I declare an interest as a patron of the Trussell Trust, which has set up food banks. I know of the ones in Wales and the number of people who need food to tide them over for 24 or 48 hours because they have no money to buy basic food for themselves and their children. The food bank system is completely voluntary and is rebuilding connections in some of these very deprived areas and communities.

What should a Government do? Far be it from me as a humble Cross-Bencher to try to advise the Government, but I have some thoughts and I will have the audacity to share them. Perhaps we need to set a framework to allow people to be risk-intelligent, rather than inappropriately risk-averse. This framework would empower a community and enable it to realise its innate creativity, but also protect the vulnerable from exploitation and ensure justice for all walks of life, free from discrimination. That is the only way that we will see our principles realised.