Islamophobia

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Finn]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the potential consequences of adopting an official definition of Islamophobia.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, we remain deeply concerned at hatred directed against British Muslims and others because of their faith or heritage. This is utterly unacceptable and does not reflect the values of our country. We know that some have suggested that establishing a definition of Islamophobia could strengthen efforts to confront bigotry and division. Any such approach would need to be considered carefully to ensure that this would have the positive effect intended.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

The formal definition of anti-Semitism is carefully but narrowly drawn and has helped to focus minds and resources on this pernicious hatred. How will my noble friend ensure that a formal definition of Islamophobia, if introduced, has a similar impact but is narrowly and carefully drawn so as to avoid creating a wider threat to free speech?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, it would be useful for my noble friend to look at the debate we had before Christmas, on 20 December, on this issue. I will certainly provide her with the link. It illustrated some of the difficulties that exist. It took some time to establish the definition for anti-Semitism. As I said, we would need to proceed with great care. In the interim, there is clearly an issue of hatred and bigotry directed against Muslims that we must confront.

Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 31st January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Horam]

The noble Lord knows far more about these planning details than I do—I concede that. Speaking as a lay man, the amendment’s language does not seem to convey what he said. It conveys something much earlier in the process than what the noble Baroness said. I am to some extent relieved but, none the less, if the language can be interpreted in different ways—I am neither a lawyer nor a planning expert—it would, frankly, worry me. I am therefore concerned about this amendment, although I understand the sensible motivation by which it is put forward.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I spoke strongly in favour of neighbourhood plans at Second Reading. It is great that there are so many champions of neighbourhood planning in all parts of the Committee. The plans embody the spirit of localism by allowing local communities to have control over their new developments and where they take place. While I therefore totally commend the spirit of the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, I do not support its substance for the simple reason that I do not think it is necessary.

The Government have already acted to address substantively the concerns that the amendment seeks to address. I would argue that the measures in the Neighbourhood Planning Bill, together with previous reforms introduced in the Housing and Planning Act 2016, deliver much of what the amendment seeks to achieve. Clause 1 places a clear requirement on planning decision-makers to have regard to neighbourhood plans that are post-examination. That is clearly the right place and time to look at these as that is when plans will be sufficiently advanced. While decision-makers can take pre-examination neighbourhood plans into account, insisting that they should have similar regard to plans that might not yet take account of all material factors such as planning for necessary local growth and so on does not seem an entirely sensible way forward.

Again, the National Planning Policy Framework already clearly says:

“Where a planning application conflicts with a neighbourhood plan … planning permission should not normally be granted”.


The Written Statement in December further made clear that,

“where communities plan for housing in their area in a neighbourhood plan, those plans should not be deemed to be out-of-date unless there is a significant lack of land supply”.

That is under three years. This gives a degree of protection not previously available. I also welcome all the government amendments that require local planning authorities to notify automatically neighbourhood planning groups of future planning applications in their area. At present, they have a right only to request information but are not necessarily told. This amendment would greatly improve what is there.

Briefly, I will also address the proposal in the amendment to consult the Secretary of State if the local authority intends to grant planning permission that goes against an agreed neighbourhood plan. I would also argue that this is unnecessary. I understand the concern of the noble Baroness about the calling in but any neighbourhood planning group can currently request the Secretary of State to consider calling in a planning application to determine the outcome.

[Baroness Parminter]

My understanding is that they cannot do that unless it is a major application. Of course, in rural areas the majority of applications are not major ones because they are for fewer than 10 houses. That puts rural areas at a significant disadvantage because they cannot undertake that.

[Baroness Finn]

I concede ignorance but my understanding is that a number of planning applications have been called in. Perhaps that can be clarified. Basically, there has been significant movement on this and taken together all the current measures give sufficient protection to neighbourhood plans. The amendment proposed is simply not required.

[Lord Greaves]

I have a question for the Minister about Amendment 6, which he spoke to some time ago, while I also support my noble friend with her more ambitious amendment. Amendment 6 would amend paragraph 8 of Schedule 1 to the Town and Country Planning Act, and is about notifying parish councils and so on of planning applications. The inclusion of neighbourhood forums here is extremely welcome, giving them the right to have this. However, parish and town councils already have this right. Reading the amendment, I cannot quite understand what would be different in practice for parish councils from the rights they already have to be told about planning applications when they come in and to have their views on them taken into account—in other words, to be consulted. What is the difference? Why is all this extra wording needed for parish councils over and above what is there already?

Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Neighbourhood Planning Bill as an important next step in tackling the problem of housing shortages. I am not sure that it is a huge exaggeration to claim that a failure to tackle this problem may lead to a social explosion further down the line. Home ownership is simply moving beyond the reach of millions of families, and that risks undermining one of the key foundations of a stable society.

I will not go into the 2016 figures, but in 2015 just 142,890 new houses were built in England. Home ownership rates have fallen back to 1980s levels. Millions of young people are still living with their parents while saving for a deposit to buy a home of their own. The only ways to resolve the issue are to ensure that the current rules are reformed, to allocate more land to housing and to double homebuilding as soon as possible.

The Bill is important because it allows local communities to embrace new developments, rather than having them imposed and being forced to live with them. The measures to strengthen neighbourhood plans introduced in the Bill will ensure that more tiers of government come together and that more plans are put in place. These plans will reduce uncertainty for communities, which are often left with no idea of what will be built where, and the subsequent resentment when developments are imposed.

In decades to come, neighbourhood planning will go down as one of the most radical and successful reforms of the coalition Government. Previously, people had always believed that if you gave residents in communities facing development pressure greater power over planning, they would use it to refuse all proposals and stop anyone building anything anywhere. But the former Prime Minister David Cameron, Eric Pickles, Greg Clark and Nick Boles all disagreed. They believed that if you trusted concerned residents with the power to shape the way in which their community discharged its responsibility to build more houses and cater for investment and economic activity, they would rise to the occasion and take the responsibility seriously. This is exactly what has happened.

An impressive 280 communities have held local referendums on neighbourhood plans since 2012 and, on average, and even more astonishing 89% of eligible voters have supported the proposed plans. This is one of the greatest experiments in direct democracy that this country has ever seen.

The Bill’s proposals to build on the reforms of the Housing and Planning Act to strengthen neighbourhood planning ensure that communities will continue to have a stronger say in the planning of their area. They will further entrench the legal weight given to neighbourhood plans in planning decisions and encourage even more communities to develop a plan of their own. The Bill will also establish a clear and straightforward process for updating neighbourhood plans without having to go back to square one.

On compulsory purchase, I welcome the measures to streamline compulsory purchase orders. I would also urge the Minister to consider an important point not covered in the Bill. It relates to vacant public sector land. The right honourable Member for Chipping Barnet, Theresa Villiers, raised this issue during the Bill’s Second Reading in the other place. She highlighted a derelict site owned by the NHS that had not been used for many years. During my years in the Cabinet Office, we ensured that government departments and agencies collocated and used office property much more intensively. This enabled us to release surplus property to the private sector.

It became increasingly clear that the public sector was hoarding vast acreages of surplus property and that many departments, due to an appalling lack of management information, were not even aware of the land that they actually owned. I would suggest that there could be rich pickings if we applied some rigour to putting records straight and then requiring public sector entities to disgorge property to meet the ever-growing housing need. We always assume that compulsory purchase is for the state to use to purchase property from recalcitrant private sector entities. I suggest that the Government should consider taking powers for central government to compulsorily purchase property from other public sector entities with a view to releasing it to the private sector.

I also commend the measures to address pre-commencement planning conditions. Pre-commencement conditions imposed by local authorities are unnecessarily restrictive and a major cause of delay, so I am delighted that Clause 12 introduces robust regulations to deal with these problems.

As many noble Lords have said, the Bill on its own is not a solution to building all the homes this country desperately needs. In particular, we must get a much better linkage between the provision of infrastructure in return for more housing. The Government must ensure that new homes are built in sustainable communities where the roads do not become hopelessly congested, where existing residents are not met with increased waiting lists to see their GP, and where there are no battles for limited school places.

However, there is simply not enough housing in this country. There needs to be more housing and more infrastructure. We have not built, and are not currently building, enough homes, and we eagerly await the White Paper due later this month. However, this Bill marks an important step in building a housing market that works for the country, and for that reason I fully commend the measures to the House.

Wales Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

I appreciate being given the authority of Professor Dicey but the real situation is that these issues will be resolved through the public political debate that will continue about the constitution of Wales and all other constitutions, because that is the sign of a vibrant democracy. It is therefore not an appropriate subject for a working group, led by a Secretary of State or whomever—and I would say the same thing about a working group led by the First Minister of Wales or the Presiding Officer of the Welsh Assembly or the Lord Speaker or the Speaker of the House of Commons. The issue is not about how that debate takes place: it is whether we need to place in statute, on the face of the Bill, the creation of a working group that would somehow have responsibility for delivering Wales from any constitutional weaknesses that it has as a result of the Bill.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I speak against Amendment 90 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hain, the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and other noble Lords. The purpose of this amendment is to devolve in part legislative competence for employment and industrial relations to the Welsh Assembly. The noble Lord and others argue that this is consistent with the Supreme Court judgment in respect of the Agricultural Sector (Wales) Bill. In this instance, the court held that the case related to multiple subjects, and thus fell within the competence of the Welsh Assembly. It should be pointed out that the Supreme Court ruling concerned a situation where the devolved subject of agriculture was specifically in play. Indeed, in another Supreme Court case involving the Welsh Government’s competence in relation to recovery of medical costs, the court followed the same approach as in the agricultural sector but came to a completely different conclusion, deciding that the area in play was not devolved.

It would be unworkable to have different employment laws applying in different jurisdictions in Great Britain. As we have previously pointed out, the Smith commission in Scotland recently considered this issue and concluded that employment and industrial relations law should remain reserved. I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has argued that the amendment is not intended to change the reservation of employment law, and we all agree that employment and industrial relations law must remain reserved matters. However, in principle, “terms and conditions” derive from all aspects of employment law—for example, the national minimum wage, parental leave, and dismissal laws—and I believe that there is sufficient flexibility under the statutory framework of employment law for employers to configure their own terms and conditions.

The purpose of bringing in a reserved powers model for Wales to replace the conferred powers model is to bring greater clarity to the respective responsibilities of the UK Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. It is therefore somewhat dismaying that the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, has told the House that the Welsh Assembly intends to pursue a Bill under the conferred powers model that will only diminish such clarity and cause legal wrangling. My fear is that Amendment 90 will reduce the very clarity that this Bill seeks to achieve. In effect, it could also create a two-tier system, with different employment and industrial relations legislation applying to public, as opposed to private, services in Wales, and, indeed, the whole public and private sectors in England and Scotland. I therefore support the Government in opposing the amendment. There is already a lot of flexibility for employers, but employment and industrial relations law must remain reserved matters to ensure clarity in the free flow of labour across Great Britain.

Wales Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 14th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely. I firmly believe that a statutory commission is highly preferable to a non-statutory one. I learned that lesson many years ago when I was sorting out the problems of the various bodies that operated in mid-Wales. I introduced an Act in order to ensure that there was a statutory commission. I learned that at the feet of a very great Welshman, Huw T Edwards, who believed that a statute has permanence unless and until it is abolished. It has to make reports. This amendment deals with that issue. A report to Parliament is a great signal to anybody in that field that it has to consider and reflect on the observations of those who come before it. In due course, that report may be debated in London. That is a vital safeguard. I support very strongly the need for a statutory commission.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, at Second Reading, I spoke in support of the maintenance of the single legal jurisdiction in England and Wales. I argued that the body of Assembly legislation can be accommodated for now within that single jurisdiction and that a separate jurisdiction would impose significant upheaval and unnecessary costs on the people of Wales, and that remains my view.

There has been a lot of change in administrative terms. There is already an administrative court to deal with judicial review and similar applications involving the interpretation of the legislation of the Assembly. However, this is a far way off from a wide separate jurisdiction. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who argued that there was no need for procedural change and that the principles of statutory interpretation will remain the same. I would just continue to urge that more cases be heard in Wales.

However, although this is the position for now, I appreciate that the body of Welsh law will grow, with diverging Welsh laws over the years. My noble friend the Minister has listened to concerns that it is sensible to keep under review the functioning and operation of the justice system in Wales. I welcome his announcement that there should be a non-statutory committee— I have to disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris—within the justice system that will undertake periodic reviews as the law continues to diverge. I believe that this is a proportionate and considered response that allows for a sensible evolution of the system.

A non-statutory review with a clear remit is the right way forward. The proposed statutory commission would have a broad remit and be unnecessarily expensive and complex to administer. Therefore the proposal from my noble friend the Minister is a sensible way through the issue. It recognises that the vast majority of laws will continue to apply across England and Wales and that there is no great appetite at the moment for a separate jurisdiction, with all the attendant cost and disruption. At the same time, it addresses the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, and of other noble Lords that it is important to keep the situation under review as the body of Welsh law grows and the system evolves.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, to which I have added my name. Although the amendment does not perfectly achieve the objectives of those of us on these Benches, I welcome the opportunity it brings to debate this important issue and to allow me to place our objectives on record.

The amendment itself reflects the views of the Silk commission, which recommended that, along with the devolution of youth justice, prisons and policing to the Welsh Assembly, a review of the legislative devolution of other aspects of the justice system should be carried out over a period of 10 years. Sadly, this Bill has not gone far enough to meet any of these expectations, although we have of course seen some movement on the matter of justice today.

Let me make this point and make the opinion on these Benches clear. We have followed and taken part in the debate over whether there is a need for a separate or distinct legal jurisdiction for many years and feel strongly that, sooner or later, the current system will require substantial reform to cope with the growing distinctions between the bodies of law produced by the two Governments. However, we have been cautious over whether now is the time for Wales to have a fully separate system from England. At this stage in the devolution process, we call for a distinct legal jurisdiction for Wales, but while the English and Welsh jurisdictions are still similar, we would support sharing the judicial framework, so as not to wastefully duplicate resources. The consequential massive savings on costs, at a time when Wales would be finding its feet as a legal jurisdiction, would be valuable.

Alan Trench, who drafted a report on behalf of the Wales Governance Centre and the Constitution Unit called Delivering a Reserved Powers Model of Devolution for Wales, said:

“Establishing a Welsh jurisdiction would be a major political decision, and have cost implications if the courts were to be devolved as well”.

We share this view. Our concern is how this can or will be achieved. We cannot allow this Bill to pass to its final stages without setting up a mechanism for further discussions on this vital issue. We owe it to the Welsh Assembly and the people of Wales to begin to sketch out a road map for the future of justice in Wales—a future which will highlight the relevance of the body of Welsh law which exists now and the additional Welsh laws which the Assembly will undoubtedly pass in the future.

I welcome the contents of the Minister’s letter, which I received today, concerning the emerging findings of the Justice in Wales working group. I was particularly pleased to note its anticipated focus on a periodic review of the operation of the justice system under the framework of the Bill, and its likely recommendations on the need to be more effective in considering the distinctiveness of how justice is delivered in Wales.

I am grateful to the Minister for providing further details of the way in which these recommendations will be put into operation. I look forward to reading the details of this debate in Hansard and giving further thought to how the committee that he proposes will operate. I hope he will be able to provide us with further details about the operation of that committee.

Wales Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, we on these Benches have felt for a long time that the constraint on the Assembly’s current control over energy is ridiculously low and the suggestion that it should rise to 350 megawatts is better, but by no means good enough. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has outlined the foolish situation that we are likely to find ourselves in if the 350 megawatt limit is adhered to. We all know it was picked as a limit by the Silk commission because it would encompass the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon. But as the noble Lord pointed out, the problem is that the sister projects in Cardiff and Newport, if they are built, will be larger than 350 megawatts, so by what measure would the Swansea lagoon not be considered to be of strategic importance but one built in Cardiff would be?

It is absolutely essential that the Welsh Government and the Assembly are able to take a stronger position on energy development. They should also be able to take a distinctive and different position on it. We fully accept that nuclear developments would not be appropriate for devolution because of their massive scale, but we do not believe that artificial limits should be put on the ambition of the people of Wales, the Assembly and the Welsh Government to provide a larger share of the energy they consume, and to find new, different, innovative and environmentally sound ways of doing so. I think that this is one of the most important series of amendments which have been put forward to the Bill so far.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, Wales can play a pivotal role in the rewiring of the UK electricity system, which of course means that the rewiring of the UK electricity system can play a pivotal role in the renewal of employment, industry and infrastructure investment in Wales. Larger energy projects by their very nature must be assessed against a complex set of UK-wide system, strategic and security objectives.

Let us take the case of tidal lagoon infrastructure in Wales. Wales is blessed with a phenomenal natural tidal resource and the time has come to tap into it to bring more jobs, investment and industry for Wales. The Hendry review of tidal lagoons is imminent. We had hoped to see it this week and I hope that it will not be long before it sees the light of day. As my noble friend Lady Bloomfield has pointed out, the first project at Swansea Bay would have fallen below the Silk commission threshold, had one been in place at the time. But it was not and the project has already been awarded development consent, thereby paving the way for much larger projects in Wales that can be assessed only in the context of a UK-wide energy strategy.

It is my belief that the 350 megawatt limit, as recommended by the Silk commission, is the right one in devolution terms. It provides more certainty for the developers of energy projects in Wales about who is responsible for consenting to energy generation projects. Rather than wasting time debating arbitrary jurisdictional limits, efforts would surely be better placed in supporting a development that would be hugely beneficial to the Welsh economy. My hope and expectation are that the Hendry review will challenge officials and nay-sayers to engage with the real value-for-money arguments. It is dismissive and lazy to claim out of hand that the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon is just too expensive. The value-for-money case is compelling: this is a project that asks for less than 0.5% of all the money available each year to low-carbon projects in the UK and which in return will start a new British power and manufacturing industry. What other UK energy project promises to spend 84p in every pound in the UK while simultaneously stimulating the regeneration of coastal communities around Wales? This could include a hugely welcome stimulus to the beleaguered Welsh steel industry. It is of vital importance for Wales and we must accept and encourage the clear role that policymakers at both ends of the M4 need to play in nurturing this new industry through its infancy.

[Lord Crickhowell]

My Lords, I hesitate to get involved in an argument with the two noble friends on my left about what should be the upper limit, but I am bound to say that my instinct is that it seems to be on the low side, for the reasons set out by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas. However, I want to raise another issue, and that is the curious situation in which we find ourselves in the management of onshore wind-powered generating stations. The Energy Act 2016 contains provisions for the transfer of onshore wind out of the Planning Act 2008 development consent regime and to return responsibility for decision-making about these projects to local planning authorities in Wales. This would have meant that when the provisions of the 2016 Act come into force, decisions on larger onshore wind developments in Wales above 50 megawatts would have fallen to be determined by local planning authorities, whereas smaller onshore wind developments from 10 megawatts to 50 megawatts would have been determined by Welsh Ministers as developments of national significance. The Developments of National Significance (Specified Criteria and Prescribed Secondary Consents) (Wales) Regulations 2016 have now captured the onshore wind projects above 50 megawatts as developments of national significance. That means that onshore wind projects of 10 megawatts to 50 megawatts and those over 50 megawatts will be dealt with by that process. I find this rather extraordinary and very unsatisfactory.

In England, things have been taken the other way. The smaller schemes are essentially being given to local authorities and local planning authorities, and local communities are being given a real say in whether they should go ahead. I suppose it could be argued that the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government are a local authority, but I do not see them in that way, having been rather influenced by events. I am not sure if the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, was referring to a particular project in mid-Wales, but we did have a big wind farm project which would have decimated one of the most beautiful valleys in Wales and would have spread problems across the border into Shropshire. That was eventually dealt with by planning authorities and local people were able to make their views known, so the situation was substantially saved.

I feel that we should be in a situation in which, where smaller local schemes are concerned, people have the same kind of opportunity to comment on and criticise them as is the case in England. I suspect that my noble friend will say in reply that he shares my view and hopes that that is what the Welsh Government will decide, but that it is entirely a matter for the Welsh Government. I have to say that I am not happy about that. If that is the answer, I should say that I had toyed with the idea of putting down some kind of amendment at Report stage to give local people a say, but I suspect that it would be thrown out on exactly the grounds that I have cited, which is that the whole matter should be decided by the Welsh Government. But if this is to be their responsibility, I hope that the Welsh Government will take the view that the smaller schemes, which really cannot be described as developments of national significance in the same way as the big schemes, should be taken in such a way that local communities are able to form a view about them and can express that view locally.

Wales Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 66 stands in my name and that of my noble friends Lord Murphy and Lord Kinnock, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. As Secretary of State, I took through the Government of Wales Act 2006 and I begin by commending the Minister for his empathy, skill and civility in our collective purpose, which is to get a Bill that does the very best for Wales. I hope he will see what we are doing as support for him in battles in Whitehall with some of his colleagues who I do not think really understand the Wales devolution settlement.

This amendment will come as no surprise to your Lordships. Not only did I explain at Second Reading that I would be tabling it, but I and my noble friend Lady Morgan of Ely also explored in detail the issues it raises during the passage of the Trade Union Bill through this House at the beginning of this year. At that time there were many references to the UK Government’s insistence on ignoring their own legal advice, ignoring a legislative consent Motion voted through by the National Assembly for Wales and ignoring the ruling of the Supreme Court in 2014 in relation to the Agricultural Wages Board. The Government’s insistence on pushing ahead with measures that interfere with the functioning—I stress this to the Minister—of the devolved public services in Wales demonstrated an intention to override the devolution settlement. I am sure that the Minister is concerned about that and I hope that he, with his known support for devolution, will change that policy in the Bill and accept the amendment.

The Minister may insist that this reservation amendment is unique: it is the only amendment in which we are seeking to go further than the Scottish settlement. I concede that. This should not, however, be taken out of context. It is precisely because the Government of Wales Act that I took through Parliament in 2006 has allowed the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government to develop and foster unique relationships with public sector employers and trade unions that we find ourselves in this position. The UK Government are making a clear and in some ways remarkably transparent move to go beyond overriding decisions that the Welsh Government have taken since 2011 and deliberately take back powers because they are unhappy about decisions taken and the judgment of the Supreme Court—a matter to which I will return. I believe that this is an attack on the heart of the Welsh devolution settlement. The employment reservation is only one of many that other noble Lords have raised on this deeply flawed Bill—but it is an important one.

Over the past nearly 20 years, the Assembly has earned its place in the public consciousness. As we know from the referendum in 2011, the Welsh public have overwhelmingly endorsed the approach taken by the Assembly and confirmed their desire for public services in Wales to continue to be run from Wales. The Conservative Party supported the 2011 referendum, and the public were asked in that referendum whether they wanted the Assembly to make laws on all matters in the 20 subject areas it had powers for. At the top of that list were education, health, housing and local government—the very devolved areas specifically affected by this reservation. It is incongruous in the extreme to think that the argument put forward in another place by the Secretary of State that—I paraphrase—the 2006 Act never intended to give powers over employment matters in the devolved public services is a reason now to claw them back.

There have been many positive developments by the Welsh Government in their relationships with their social partners in the public services, including the Partnership and Managing Change agreement, signed up to by all public service employers and trade unions, the memorandum of understanding in local government and the implementation of the two-tier workforce code. We have been fortunate in Wales not to have seen a difficult and divisive strike by junior doctors. We might think that to be no accident. It comes out of precisely the culture made possible by the circumstances that flowed from the 2006 Act that this Bill now seeks to reverse.

All of these things have been possible because of the social partnership structures in place to ensure that the difficult decisions facing our public services at a time of austerity are worked through from the beginning with employers and trade unions round the table. All of this has been possible because the legislative framework has permitted this flexibility.

The legislative competence over the delivery of public services is undoubtedly devolved to the Assembly. There is no question about that. The Government’s own legal advice during the passage of what is now the Trade Union Act demonstrated that. The differentiation that must be drawn here is between collective bargaining over employment law matters—which it is widely agreed should be maintained at an England and Wales level—and industrial relations that intimately impact upon the day-to-day discussions to enable change and flexibility in the delivery of the services that affect the people of Wales.

I turn briefly to the Trade Union Act, for it is here that the UK Government appear to have developed their principled opposition by allowing the Assembly to retain its current legislative competence over industrial relations. During the passage of that Act in this House I referred to the Supreme Court judgment on the Agricultural Wages Board in 2014. Their Lordships made crystal clear their view that even though employment law was a reserved matter—I am not contesting that in this amendment—nevertheless the operation of services devolved to Wales, in this case agriculture, was a matter proper to the Welsh Assembly to legislate upon. The Supreme Court upheld that view.

The Welsh Government have made clear their intention to legislate in relation to three devolved aspects of the UK Trade Union Act 2016. The first is the administration costs of check-off, the means by which trade union subscriptions are automatically checked off in the payroll system in devolved public services—and in those services exclusively. The other aspects are the 40% overall support threshold for important public services and powers to regulate facility time. These are all matters that affect industrial relations in Welsh public services. They do not impinge upon employment rights and duties. In other words, the main contours of employment law remain a reserved matter. Rather, the Government are interfering with the legislative competence of the National Assembly and the Welsh Government to deliver effective public services through social partnership. Surely that cannot be right.

The effect of this amendment would be to provide an exception to the legislation as drafted to ensure that the Assembly retains its legislative competence—a competence it now has—over terms and conditions of service for employees in devolved public services and over industrial relations in such services. It is consistent with both the Wales TUC and the Welsh Government’s stated policy, which is not to break up England and Wales collective bargaining and to agree that employment rights and duties remain an area reserved to the UK Government—I stress this point. But it seeks to ensure that the Assembly maintains the legislative flexibility that it currently has to influence employment and industrial relations in the devolved public services over which it and the Welsh Government maintain legislative policy and fiscal control.

I hope that the Minister is listening carefully. I repeat that the amendment does not challenge the Government’s position that employment law covering such matters as strikes, unfair dismissal, health and safety and so on should be reserved. Indeed, it does not challenge the reserved status of any of the 17 employment Acts listed in Section H1 of new Schedule 7A on pages 68 and 69. They are all listed, ranging from employers’ liability to pneumoconiosis, the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, the Employment Rights Act 1996 and so on. It does not seek to challenge any of them or to contest that they are reserved matters. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the Government’s policy and to adopt a practical, common-sense stance in line with that of the Welsh Government and the Assembly.

When the Government claim to be marching in step with the Assembly on progressing greater devolution, surely there is nothing to be gained by confrontation on the matter of how public services in Wales are run. For confrontation between the Assembly and Westminster there will certainly be if the Bill is not amended—almost certainly also leading to another unedifying dispute in the Supreme Court. I hope that the Minister will accept this point and be conciliatory in his response so that we can move forward together, reserving properly reserved matters of employment law to the UK level but ensuring that the Welsh Government can run their public services and the industrial relations that are so crucial to those services in the way they choose to do in keeping with the devolution settlement.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, the key purpose of the Wales Bill is to provide clarity over powers and accountability of those powers. The introduction of the reserved powers model makes clear what is devolved and what is reserved so that people in Wales know who is responsible for what. It is worth emphasising that the need for clarity lies at the heart of the Bill.

Employment law and industrial relations law are clearly reserved matters. It would be unworkable to have different employment laws applying in the different jurisdictions of Great Britain. This issue was also considered by the Smith commission for Scotland, and both the Smith commission and the Silk commission recognised the importance of having a single employment regime. Both concluded that employment and industrial relations law should remain reserved and neither recommended any sort of exceptions.

I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is not asking for the devolution of all employment law, the core issues of which will remain reserved, and I apologise to the noble Lord if I was not clear on this point when I spoke at Second Reading. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, explained during the passage of the Trade Union Act 2016 that industrial relations law in devolved public services is a devolved matter. That Act is about employment law and industrial relations. The Government have consistently argued that these are reserved matters and that the Act will apply consistently across the whole of Great Britain.

This amendment would lead to the unwelcome creation of a two-tier system of employment rights in devolved public services as well as a regrettable reduction in clarity over industrial relations powers. The Wales Bill introduces a reserved powers model precisely to bring more clarity to the Welsh devolution settlement and the effect of the amendment would undermine that primary intent. I therefore urge that the focus now should not be on yet more interminable wrangling about where powers lie. The focus should instead be on the efficient delivery of quality devolved public services on which the Welsh people rely.

Wales Bill

Baroness Finn Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the Wales Bill, which brings a new era of devolution for Wales by delivering a clearer and stronger devolution settlement. It is a particular honour to speak after the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon. I knew him as a child growing up in Swansea; he was a great friend of my step-grandfather, Sir Alun Talfan Davies. He will recall that Sir Alun sat as a member of the Royal Commission on the Constitution, which informed the blueprint for Welsh devolution in the 1979 referendum.

It is also an enormous pleasure to speak after the excellent and assured maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. I have known her as a friend and colleague for a number of years, and share her love of our Welsh heritage and culture. She will bring her considerable experience as well as her formidable energy and enthusiasm to this House. I am also delighted by her support for the Swansea tidal lagoon; I hope to recruit ever more support for this excellent and innovative project.

The key purpose of the Bill is to provide clarity over powers and accountability of those powers. The reserved powers model addresses the patent deficiencies in the current settlement. It establishes a clear line between those subjects that are devolved to the Assembly and those that are the responsibility of the UK Parliament. Too much time has been wasted arguing in the Supreme Court over where powers lie, and the Bill draws a line under those disputes. There is now commendable clarity over who should be held to account for the decisions taken on the public services on which the Welsh people depend.

I very much welcome the Government’s commitment to maintaining the single legal jurisdiction that has served Wales so well for many hundreds of years. The body of Assembly legislation can be accommodated, for now, within the single jurisdiction of England and Wales. A separate jurisdiction would impose significant upheaval and unnecessary costs on the people of Wales. The time and money would be far better spent on front-line services. So much has already been done administratively—for example, moving the Court of Appeal, and it would be excellent progress if more cases were actually heard in Wales.

Devolution has greatly benefited Welsh national life, and the Bill grants an important new power to the Welsh Government: namely, the ability to vary income tax. The devolution of some tax-raising powers will make the Welsh Government more accountable for the public services they provide. There was considerable debate in the other place about whether there was a need for a referendum on the subject. As a general principle, I am not in favour of referendums, and I fully appreciate that, after June, we are all suffering from referendum fatigue. However, although I support the Bill in its entirety, I had some personal disappointment that a referendum will not be on offer for the Welsh people as it was for the people of Scotland. If we expect the people of Wales potentially to pay more tax, we should put the question to them and allow their voice to be heard. I would be grateful if the Minister would consider this position and explain what has changed.

Employment and industrial relations will not be devolved to the Welsh Government. This is consistent with the position in Scotland, and the Government were clear that that would be the case with Wales during the passage of the Trade Union Act earlier this year. If the noble Lord, Lord Hain, tables his amendment to disapply this reservation from devolved public services in Wales, I will join forces with my noble friend Lord Crickhowell to support the Government in opposing that amendment. It would lead to an unwelcome reduction in clarity over employment and industrial relations powers— something that the Bill is designed to avoid.

The Bill devolves further powers to enable the Welsh Government to decide on issues that concern the people of Wales. These include putting Wales’s natural resources in the hands of the people of Wales. The Assembly will, for example, be able to decide on the planning regime for major strategic energy projects, such as whether fracking should take place and, if so, how it should be regulated. As such, decision-making on the use of those resources will rightly rest with the people of Wales, who are best placed to make such decisions. The Labour Party announced at its conference plans to outlaw fracking and reopen coal mines. It would be a shame to ignore the economic benefits of fracking. Shale gas has the potential to power economic growth, support the creation of jobs and provide a new domestic energy source. This in turn will make us less reliant on imports. We should not turn our back on innovation, and I urge the Welsh Government not to do so.

The Wales Bill is rich in opportunity for Wales, and allows us to channel collective effort into delivering a bolder, brighter future for the people of Wales. In my maiden speech, I spoke of my strong support for the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon project. Last week, members of the Government spoke of their resolve to embrace new ideas and industries and to be bold and decisive about our national infrastructure. We are an island nation; we have a safe natural resource in the power of our tides; we can harness that power and, by so doing, nurture a transformative new industry for Wales and the wider UK. As the review undertaken by the right honourable Charles Hendry draws to a close, I urge policymakers at both ends of the M4 to join forces so that Swansea Bay can be the pioneer of this exciting and inherently Welsh industrial opportunity.

The Wales Bill devolves a historic package of powers to the National Assembly. It delivers on its two underpinning principles of clarity and accountability. The new reserved powers model makes clear what is devolved and what is reserved so the people in Wales know who is responsible for what. As such, it enables the Welsh Government to get on with their important task of improving both the economy and devolved public services. It is a welcome settlement for Wales and the people of Wales.