Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

I will have to write to the noble Lord on that issue because if I were to venture a figure, I fear I might mislead him, and it is important that I am completely accurate on that.

My noble friend Lord Roberts asked about the further devolution of the rail franchise announced last week. His question pointed to the difference between Wales and Scotland in the nature of their borders. He referred to the fact that the rail line between north Wales and south Wales goes across the border from Wales to England and back again. I will write to him with the details of last week’s agreement. I can assure him that the issue has been taken fully into account in the discussions between the two Governments. I will ask the Electoral Commission to write to the noble Lord with the details of the 22 electoral returning officers in Wales.

The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, considered the issue of the maturity of young people now compared with 40 years ago. It is important to bear in mind that young people consider rather more strongly that they should have a say in the way their lives are run than was the case a long time ago. My noble friend Lord Cormack talked about the variable age of majority. I would say to him that there has always been a variable age of majority in this country. One could argue that some ages of majority are not entirely consistent with some others. It has always been the case that one could, for instance, join the Army younger than when you could get married without your parents’ consent. There are therefore different approaches to different aspects of life. Perhaps that is something else on which we need to have a consistent and long-term debate, but that has been the state throughout the whole of my life and, I dare say, we will not resolve that debate in the near future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, referred to the signatures on the amendment. I tabled the amendment and three noble Lords exercised their right to add their names, as is the custom in this House. They had signed the original amendment. I would have strongly welcomed the noble Baroness adding her own name because one of the things signifying the tone of debate on the Bill has been cross-party consensus.

[Baroness Gale]

I was trying to point out to the Minister that there is cross-party support for the amendment, which could have been reflected in the signatures if I had been allowed. I am not sure whether I would have been allowed as it is a government amendment. However, I think the Minister will accept that there is cross-party support for the amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

I wholeheartedly recognise that there is cross-party support but repeat that this is a government amendment to which three people added their names. It would have been in the hands of the noble Baroness to add her name if she had wanted to.

Finally, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, for the way in which she has expressed her appreciation for our efforts here today. She made the point that the Bill is already rather out of date. I would say to the noble Baroness that the fact that we are already planning, working on and discussing a future Bill indicates that this is a developing process.

Before I sit down, I should like to thank all those who have participated in our debates on the Bill. It has been a personal pleasure for me to steer a Bill through your Lordships’ House to devolve new powers to the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Ministers. “Historic” is a word that is sometimes overused in political debate, but I believe we can justly claim that the devolution of fiscal powers to the Welsh Assembly for the first time is an historic step forward. Although some noble Lords have expressed frustration at the pace of devolution, if we look back, we can see that Welsh devolution has come a long way in 15 years. Our debates have reflected the gathering momentum for further change. The Government are committed to ensuring that Wales remains at the heart of the development of devolution. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I are committed to publishing a framework for a reserved powers model of devolution by St David’s Day with—and I emphasise this—cross-party support.

I am pleased that the Government have been able to listen and respond to the views of noble Lords on two key issues during the Bill’s passage: first, on the lock-step mechanism for income tax and, secondly, on the referendum voting age, which we have just been discussing. I believe it is a better Bill as a result. At its heart, this is a Bill about accountability. It will provide the Welsh Government with the tools to help to build a stronger economy and a fairer society in Wales. For the first time, the Welsh Government will have the power to raise some of their own revenue, making them accountable to the people of Wales not just for spending, but for raising money as well.

I look forward to seeing how the Welsh Government capitalise on the opportunities we are giving them and once again urge them to call an income tax referendum as soon as possible. I thank my noble friends Lord Newby and Lord Bourne for their support and assistance with the Bill. The expertise of my noble friend Lord Bourne has been extremely useful in view of the fact that we have discussed the Silk commission on so many occasions. He was, of course, a member of that commission.

This is a short Bill but it has benefited from the expertise of officials from a number of departments: the Wales Office, the Cabinet Office, Her Majesty’s Treasury, HMRC and the DWP. It has been a pleasure to work with them on the Bill. They have been assiduous and endlessly prepared to give their time to assist me and support the many meetings I have held with noble Lords, both as individuals and in groups. I thank them for their assistance. I also thank the many noble Lords who have spoken in our debates. They have displayed a wealth of experience and understanding of devolution. I appreciate the willingness of so many noble Lords to give their time to attend a number of additional informal meetings that I arranged. I commend the amendments to the House.

Wales Bill

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, once again we have had an interesting debate, as we did in Committee. There was general consensus then that the number of Welsh Assembly Members should be increased. Indeed, over the 15 years of devolution, many calls have been made to increase the number. Different reports have been produced, including by the Electoral Reform Society Cymru. The 2004 Richard commission supported an increase, and we know that the current presiding officer, Dame Rosemary Butler, has said the same. The Richard commission said that there should be 80 seats, while the Silk 2 report said that the,

“size of the National Assembly should be increased”.

In 2013, the Electoral Reform Society and the Changing Union project published a report recommending that the number of AMs should be 100. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, asked how many Members we should have. He also pointed out the small number of Back-Benchers, at 42. It means that the ability to scrutinise legislation is curtailed, as is holding the Government to account, which is really important in a democracy. As legislation becomes more complex, it is necessary for politicians to develop areas of specialist expertise, but that is difficult for most of the Back- Benchers because they are spread so thinly and they have to do lots of different things. The Minister will have experience of that and obviously she understands everything we are saying in this debate.

The debate today shows that there is consensus around increasing the number of AMs. I do not think that the Minister will be able to make a commitment because we need more discussions in order to decide exactly what would fit the bill, as it were. The Senate was built to cater for 80 Members, so someone must have been thinking ahead, but I do not think that that would be a restriction if the consensus declared it should be 80 or whatever number we come up with. However, I am sure the Minister will agree that there is consensus on this point and generally there is a feeling in Wales that we need to increase the number of Members of the Welsh Assembly.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, Amendment 12 would increase the size of the Assembly to 80 Members. In Committee we had amendments from across the House on increasing the size of the Assembly. The noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, spoke in favour of an increase to at least 80, as he did today. The noble Lord, Lord Richard, agreed but suggested that there might be 100. My noble friend Lady Humphreys also spoke of having 80 Members after the 2016 election and then 100 in 2021. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, spoke of a desire for 120, although, as I mentioned, his amendment today calls for 80.

I say all this because it illustrates in a nutshell the problem with any debate on the size of the Assembly. Even if everyone agreed that the number of AMs should be increased—I suspect that there would be a good deal of agreement among politicians—there is no consensus on how many more Members there should be. And, of course, among the public there may not be that consensus and agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, said in Committee:

“‘Any advance on 80? Any advance on 100? Any advance on 120?’ Where does one stop?”.—[Official Report, 13/10/14; col. 65.]

I should say to noble Lords that discussions with Welsh party leaders both here and in the Assembly will deal with all the recommendations made by the Silk commission, and it is right that we should try to seek consensus on this issue, as we will on the other issues set out in the Silk 2 report.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, made a very important point: form should follow function. Surely, the size of the Assembly should be decided in the light of how many additional powers it will get and exactly how significant those powers are. Once that part of a cross- party discussion and debate has taken place, it would then be the appropriate time to address the issue of the size of the Assembly. It is important to settle this discussion rather than agree on a certain number of additional Members now and then in two years’ time talk about more again. That is not easy for the general public to appreciate and bear with. It is important to make sure that the size of the Assembly fits the job it has to do. As for the timing, as part of the four-way discussions, I suggest that it is for the political parties to set out their views in their manifestos, which would give the parties the opportunity to put to the test whether the electorate believes that the Assembly should be made larger. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I am again pleased to take part in this debate and it seems that, once again, consensus reigns across your Lordships’ House. I support these provisions because the idea is to empower our citizens to register to vote. We know that turnout in Welsh elections has been lower than we would like it to be, especially among younger voters in Wales. Anything that can be done to increase participation, especially among our younger people, is to be welcomed. We know of the success in Northern Ireland, which is a great example of how it can be done. We have seen how the young people of Scotland were enthused by the referendum. Obviously, they all had to register to vote and they took part in that referendum because they were excited by it.

I am pleased to say that the Labour Party will have a manifesto commitment at the general election on voter registration and that we will be putting forward measures to encourage young people to vote. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made out a very good case for taking active steps and engaging at the school and further education level. If action were taken as set out in the amendments, it would mean that young people, people with disabilities and ethnic minority groups—those who are consistently underrepresented in Wales’s democratic processes and, at present, the least likely to take an active part in democratic life—could be registered to vote and, by voter engagement sessions, be encouraged to use their vote. We need to get those at schools and further education colleges to understand how important it is for them to register and to vote.

The four Welsh party leaders have signed a letter to the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales, and the Wales Office Ministers showing their support for these moves. We know that in a letter today, which other noble Lords have mentioned, they again urge your Lordships’ House to support these amendments. I will not read out the whole letter but it says that, “We the undersigned”—that is, the four leaders—are supporters of these voter registration amendments and therefore,

“ask you to incorporate this important provision into the Wales Bill”,

to set in train,

“easier, engaging and accessible voter registration for the people of Wales”.

If the Minister will take all these views into account, as I know she will, we could move forward on this and encourage our younger people and the underrepresented groups to register and vote.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I start by paying tribute to my noble friend’s very energetic campaign on this issue, which has certainly helped to raise awareness of the problem. Knowing about the problem is part of the way to solving it. This is a complex issue so, while I know that it is late in the day, I hope the House will forgive me if I take some time to explain why these amendments would not in themselves solve the problem. That is not the Government being complacent—far from it. We all agree that there is a problem that has to be solved but registration alone will not solve it. An answer has to lie in civic engagement and education as well as in a vigorous programme to increase voter registration. I want to explain the programme that the Government are undertaking.

Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) (Amendment) (Wales) Order 2013

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for placing this order before us today. As she has outlined, its purpose is to amend the Local Authorities (Contracting Out of Tax Billing, Collection and Enforcement Functions) Order 1996. From April 2013, council tax benefit will be abolished and council tax reduction schemes will be introduced in Wales under the Local Government Finance Act 2012. In future, instead of receiving council tax benefit, low-income families will receive a reduction in their council tax. Currently, local authorities can contract out of administering the collection of council tax. The order we are debating is required to ensure that the new administrative functions are part of the council tax reduction scheme and can also be contracted out if local councils wish to do so. Those functions include such things as sending out decision letters and serving penalty notices. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and my noble friend Lord Rowlands asked some very interesting questions on those issues and I look forward to the Minister’s reply to them.

The drafting of the order is relatively uncontroversial but it is unfortunate that we have it at all. It comes about as a result of the Government’s decision to abolish council tax benefit. They are scrapping the national benefit and passing responsibility for it to local authorities in England and to the Welsh and Scottish Governments, and cutting funding by 10%. We accept that the Welsh Government have responsibility for the details of any schemes and are fully involved in setting up these details. The principle of getting rid of council tax benefit dismays us very much. In England, we see people on low incomes being asked to pay sums of money that they simply cannot afford. Most councils have had no option but to pass on some of the cuts. As a result, many low-income households currently exempt from council tax will have to pay it for the first time. Typically, they will have to pay between £96 and £225 a year. In Wales, a 10% cut would amount to an annual cut of some £74 per council tax benefit claimant. I wonder whether the Government fully understand the impact this will have on low-income families. Government Ministers have praised the freeze on council tax, which may, indeed, be welcomed by those on modest and high incomes. However, the removal of council tax benefit from those on the lowest incomes means an increase in what they will have to pay.

The Government say that pensioners must be protected from the cuts, which means that others face larger cuts, depending on the number of pensioners in a local authority. If councils also try to protect other vulnerable groups, such as disabled people or carers, the cuts enforced on working families will be even more severe. Because of the number of pensioners the average reduction across local authorities will work out at some 16%. In January the Welsh Minister for Social Justice and Local Government, Carl Sergeant, announced a £22 million support package to continue offering the full council tax discounts in Wales, and under prudent financial management the Welsh Government have been able to fund their proposals out of their reserves.

It has been a difficult time for the Welsh Government. They have had to balance an enormous number of cuts and manage them while facing a difficult budgetary situation. Towards the end of the winter they were able to see the effects on households of other welfare benefit cuts. They knew that they were perhaps not going to have so many payments for such things as severe winter weather. They were in a position to use that money for council tax discount. However, that prompts the question as to whether it can continue to be used in the future. It will certainly not be easy and councils are aware of the pressures on them.

Given that the Government are going ahead with the change, the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities need the regulations in place as soon as possible. We will not oppose these regulations tonight.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and remarks this afternoon. In principle this order does not change the way that councils deal with council tax. To deal with the first point of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it has always been possible for councils to contract out billing, collection and enforcement. Councils have been able to appoint an external provider to undertake some administrative functions. This order simply enables this to continue under the new arrangements from 1 April when council tax benefit will no longer exist.

As always I will try my best to answer the questions that noble Lords have asked. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, asked whether this would mean greater privatisation. This order does not extend the powers that the local authorities already have to contract out their administrative functions in relation to council tax. As I have said, it allows them to apply them to the new council tax reduction schemes that are no longer part of the social security benefit system.

Welsh Government: Tax-varying Powers

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, the Minister will know that the Silk commission’s recommendations included changes to taxation that would have implications extending beyond Wales and having consequences for the whole of the United Kingdom. Does she agree that Members from all parts of the United Kingdom in both Houses should be able to debate the report in full? Can she give some idea when the Government will respond to the report? I know she said earlier that it would be in due course.

[Baroness Randerson]

It is important to bear in mind that there were 33 recommendations in the report. That very complex set of recommendations was presented to us as a package; nevertheless, there is a series of different strands associated with them. Of course, as the noble Baroness rightly points out, they have implications well beyond the borders of Wales. Some of the recommendations could be implemented relatively quickly and without legislation, whereas others would require substantial amendments to the Government of Wales Act or legislation introduced by the Treasury. However, I can say that the Wales Office and the Government are committed to dealing with this with all due speed, but in a timely manner so that we give due and serious consideration to every recommendation.

Wales: Economy

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, on her promotion to the Wales Office and on becoming a Wales Office Minister. I share in the warm welcome that has been extended to her tonight. I know that her experience as a Minister in the Welsh Assembly will stand her in good stead in her work in the Wales Office. I look forward to working with her. I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord German, on securing this debate tonight and thank all noble Lords who have contributed. I detected a note of optimism in all the speeches about where Wales can go if we are all determined to work together.

This is a timely debate with the Silk commission due to report on part one of its remit very shortly. Ahead of this, as noble Lords will know, the UK and Welsh Governments have reached a significant agreement on funding reform. The agreement acknowledges that convergence has led to Wales being underfunded in the past and has the potential to do so again in the future. We welcome this admission from the Treasury and will be holding it to account on this point. We also welcome the Treasury’s support for extending borrowing powers in Wales—rightly dependent on an income stream—as a way to shape the Welsh economy, which they have the ability to do.

The debate is timely too because of the better-than-expected employment and growth figures over the last quarter. We welcome those figures but they are still nowhere good enough yet. On the number one challenge facing the Welsh economy—how to secure jobs and growth—the two Governments are not working well together. That is because the policies of the United Kingdom Government are falling short on the real needs for the Welsh economy. The Welsh Government are doing all they can with the levers at their disposal but what Wales really needs to tackle the challenges facing its economy is for the Government at Westminster to change course from their so-called plan A.

That is the message that I hope the Minister will be able to take back with her from this debate, because the Government’s austerity programme is not working for Wales. A 1% injection of growth over the past three months, which was boosted by the Olympics, does not change the fact that the Government’s economic policies have greatly underachieved. Two years ago, the Chancellor said his plan would assume growth at 4.6% by this time. In reality, the UK economy has grown by just 0.6% and we are only now emerging from the deepest double-dip recession in over half a century.

On getting jobs and growth into the economy, we need the United Kingdom Government to implement a plan that works for Wales and follow the example set by Welsh Labour Ministers in Cardiff. Despite the real terms cut of 42% to their capital grant, the Welsh Government have put forward a budget for jobs and growth. On tackling youth unemployment, for example, the Welsh Government introduced jobs growth Wales in April this year, which will create 12,000 job opportunities over the next three years. In contrast, of course, one of the first things the UK Government did when they came into office was to scrap the future jobs fund. That was a risible and completely counterproductive decision, especially with long-term youth unemployment in Wales having quadrupled over the last year.

Another way the Welsh Government are doing what they can to boost jobs and growth is by reaching out to business through city regions, through growth funds, and by investing in Wales’ infrastructure with a £15 billion investment plan over the next decade. As far as we are concerned, the Welsh Government are doing their fair share, but unfortunately Wales is being let down by the coalition Government in Westminster pursuing counterproductive policies.

I will put three questions to the Minister. First, on the scale of public sector cuts, what assurance can the Minister give that forecasted 700,000 public sector job losses in the UK will not fall disproportionately on Wales? Secondly, the Government’s regional pay proposals would be disastrous for Wales. Does the Minister share the views of the Liberal Democrat leader in Wales, Kirsty Williams, who said recently that regional pay would exacerbate a “brain drain” in Wales and create the impression that to “get on”, you first had to “get out” of Wales? Thirdly, does she agree that the increase in VAT—which, before the election, the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg estimated would cost people £389 a year—has hindered the Welsh economy?

Public sector job losses, regional pay and VAT are three policies that will hit Wales hard and are indicative, we believe, of the Government’s divide-and-rule approach to politics. Labour has put forward an alternative “One Nation” plan to get growth into our economy. We are calling for a jobs plan to boost the economy, including using funds from the 4G mobile spectrum auction to build 100,000 affordable homes in the UK. We believe that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor need to change course and follow Labour’s alternative plan as well as the example set by the Welsh Labour Ministers in Cardiff Bay. We believe that that will be the best way for the two Governments to work together to tackle the real challenges facing the Welsh economy, and the best way to get jobs and growth into the Welsh economy, which we all know is what is needed. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Office (Baroness Randerson)]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord German, for securing this debate to discuss the economy of Wales. It is a hugely important subject and clearly close to the hearts of many noble Lords here today. It is an honour for me to be standing here for the first time as the Wales Office Minister answering this debate.

We have had a large number of really good ideas put forward today and some very valuable contributions from noble Lords. Although we might not always agree on the solutions, I hope that we all share a common objective: to revitalise the Welsh economy. Clearly this is not just a job for the Welsh Government. The Welsh Government need to work hand in hand with the UK Government. We also need to work closely with the private sector and with all stakeholders in delivering our vision for the Welsh economy. The noble Lord, Lord German, illustrated the sometimes confusing split of powers and economic levers. We have to work with them and ensure that they work effectively.

However, our hopes and aspirations need to be founded in reality, and the noble Lord, Lord German, outlined the challenges that Wales faces. We must recognise that the UK economy as a whole is dealing with some very deep-rooted problems. The global financial crisis in 2008 exposed an unstable and unbalanced economic growth model, based on increasing levels of public and private sector debt: an unbalanced model, overreliant on the financial sector and on the economy of the south-east of England. Since then, the UK economy has of course been hit by a series of further shocks, including the eurozone crisis. Returning the UK to strong, sustainable, balanced growth is the top priority for the UK Government.

We had welcome news last week of course, with confirmation that the UK economy is officially out of recession. We had particularly welcome news in Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, drew attention to the recent statistics on the state of the economy in Wales. Employment statistics tell a great story for Wales in the last quarter: 40,000 more people in work, 7,000 fewer people unemployed and 32,000 fewer people economically inactive. I disagree with the noble Baroness when she says that the Government’s economic policies are not working for Wales.

I am pleased to be able to say that the increase in the employment rate in Wales over the past quarter was the largest of all the devolved countries and English regions and well above the increase seen across the UK as a whole. The figures may have been stimulated by the Olympics; I can assure noble Lords that Wales did not benefit disproportionately from the Olympics but still did very well indeed in these figures. However, there is no room for complacency, and no one is more alive than I to the challenges that we continue to face in Wales.

The Government are investing in Wales, illustrated by our commitment to electrify the south Wales main and valleys lines, which several noble Lords referred to. Wales is expected to benefit directly and indirectly from almost £2 billion from the programme to modernise the rail network. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Jones, that we have repeatedly indicated our desire to look at infrastructure improvements in north Wales and we are committed to working with the Welsh Government and the local community in considering the business case for electrifying the north Wales line. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, drew attention to the number of regular commuters in this area and hence the need for this improvement.

We have made considerable investment in broadband infrastructure. The Government have provided the Welsh Government with almost £57 million to help bring broadband to everyone and super-fast speeds to 90% of homes and businesses in Wales. In July, the Welsh Government announced that they had matched our investment and had awarded the contract, which is worth £425 million and also includes European structural funds.

Several noble Lords referred to the importance of enterprise zones, and we wish to see these flourish in Wales. By granting enhanced capital allowances to the Deeside enterprise zone, we have demonstrated that we can work very closely with the Welsh Government to ensure that that zone is a success. But we need to find ways to further accelerate major infrastructure investment, and I hope that we will see Welsh projects benefit from the £50 billion UK guarantees scheme that we have introduced. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, drew attention to the need for venture capital funding, which will also need to be stimulated in some cases by those government guarantees.

I welcome the recent agreement reached in principle that the Welsh Government should have access to capital borrowing powers, which was also welcomed by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. Those borrowing powers are necessary in order to finance infrastructure, and there are ongoing discussions with the Welsh Government on infrastructure improvements along the M4 in Wales. We look forward to considering the report from the Silk commission, due to be launched on 19 November, which has assessed the case for borrowing and taxation powers. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord German, that increased fiscal responsibility is important for the development of devolution.

I recently had a very productive meeting with Edwina Hart, the Welsh Government’s Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, in which we discussed how the two Governments can work together to ensure that enterprise zones work properly for Wales, and I welcome the news that the Welsh Government will soon be announcing proposals for more enterprise zone sites, which could benefit from enhanced capital allowances. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, gave us international examples of economic co-operation. If it can be done on an international basis, it can be done within the UK.

Edwina Hart and I also discussed how our two Governments can work together in response to the report on city regions by Dr Elizabeth Haywood, which highlighted the need for the Welsh and UK Governments to work together to strengthen the Mersey Dee Alliance to deliver growth and jobs for north-east Wales. That report was referred to in detail by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. There are important cross-border opportunities that we are committed to take forward with the Welsh Government.

In addition to the challenges that we face to improve infrastructure, it is vital that we do all that we can to enhance the skills of the workforce in Wales. Improving skills will not only support indigenous business but help Wales to attract more inward investment. It is excellent, as the noble Lord, Lord Jones, said, that Airbus and Tata Steel, for example, continue to operate effectively in Wales and to run apprenticeship schemes that are examples of best practice. I know that the Welsh Government have a number of such schemes running to support young people into work across Wales.

Of course, many aspects of skills policy are devolved to the Welsh Government, but that does not mean that there are not opportunities for the Governments to work together in this important area. Wales’s higher education institutions have a world-class track record. I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, chose to highlight the importance of the higher education research contract recently won by Swansea University. We can celebrate that it will team up with BP to create an Energy Safety Research Institute which is worth £38 million in partnership.

There is clearly still more to do if we are to improve the economy in Wales, and tonight’s debate has raised some interesting and important points. In my last couple of minutes, I will try to answer some of the points that noble Lords have raised. The noble Lord, Lord German, emphasised the need for new thinking to spread prosperity across Wales. Within the Wales Office, we will need to give careful consideration to his proposals for joint working; he had some very interesting ideas. The noble Lords, Lord Roberts of Conwy and Lord Jones, referred to the abolition of the WDA, which has undoubtedly had an adverse impact. Sadly, the figures say it all on that. However, both the Wales Office and the Welsh Government are working hard with UKTI to market Wales abroad. The two organisations are having success and we hope to continue that and redouble our efforts.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, referred to the Secretary of State and the First Minister being in close contact. I am aware that they are, but I cannot answer the question about which language they speak in their meetings. I am very grateful for the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who brings a different perspective to our debate.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, talked about the lack of venture capital in Wales. I am pleased to be able to tell noble Lords that Welsh businesses are benefiting from the enterprise finance guarantee. So far, 784 loans have been offered in Wales with a total value of nearly £72 million. I also welcome the announcement that Finance Wales recently made its first investment from the new £40 million Wales SME investment fund.

I hope that noble Lords will bear with me. When I read Hansard tomorrow, I will write to anyone whose questions I have not had time to answer here today.

Wales: National Assembly Elections

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Monday 18th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Gale]

I can agree with that. I thank my noble friend for her great speech in which she mentioned that the Green Paper expressed hope that there would be no advantage to any party. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, mentioned the voting figures and how things were working out, and raised the issue of party-political advantage. I welcome the Secretary of State saying that there should be no advantage to any political party. However, when one looks at the voting figures and the regional list results that my noble friend Lord Touhig mentioned, one sees that on an all-Wales basis Labour got 36.9% of the vote—the highest percentage—and two seats. The Liberal Democrats got 8% of the vote and four seats.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Baroness overlooks the point of the list system, which is to put right the disproportionality of the first past the post system. In the three recent elections in Wales, the overall proportionality of both list and constituency seats resulted in the three main parties getting roughly the same number of seats as they got percentages of the vote, although the Labour Party always got a higher percentage of seats than of the vote.

[Baroness Gale]

I thank the noble Baroness for that intervention. Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that it was the Labour Party that brought in devolution and agreed that there would be an element of proportionality. We wanted a brand-new institution in 1999. I and many others in the Labour Party did not want it to look like the old Glamorgan County Council that many of us could remember, which was totally dominated by the Labour Party and had very few representatives from other parties. With the new institution we wanted to involve all parties so that everybody who voted for the smaller parties would have a chance to be represented in the Welsh Assembly. I am very proud that the Labour Party was able to do that.

Gender balance has been mentioned a few times this afternoon. The gender balance in the Welsh Assembly has been pretty good. Again, much of this was brought about by the Labour Party. We guessed that we would win most of our seats in the constituencies, so our policy was to have an equal number of male and female candidates. As a result, a good number of women were elected in the first election, and by 2003 there were an equal number of men and women. It was the first democratically elected institution in the world to have an equal number of men and women. Proportionality does not necessarily mean that you will get more women unless every party puts them at the top of the list.

As my noble friend Lord Touhig said, this consultation paper has been brought out at a time when the people of Wales have much to concern them. Many are concerned about their jobs, or lack of them—young people are worrying about whether they will get a job—and about the lack of economic growth. I refer, for example, to young couples wanting to buy a house. These are the issues worrying Welsh people today. I assure the Minister, as other noble Lords did, that they are not particularly concerned about electoral arrangements for the Welsh Assembly, which must surely come at the bottom of their list of their concerns. Unfortunately, Welsh people have much more important things to worry about.

Since the referendum of 1997 when the Welsh people voted in favour of devolution, all major changes have been made after either a manifesto commitment or a referendum that allowed them to decide how they wanted devolution to evolve. We are not advocating a referendum before any changes are made, but there should be at least a manifesto commitment in the spirit of devolution to allow Welsh people to make their views known.

The Green Paper offers four matters to be consulted on: the size of the constituencies, the ratio of list Members to the constituencies, and the retention of 60 seats, although a number of noble Lords today have mentioned 80 seats. Indeed, I thought I heard for the first time the figure of 90 mentioned. Eighty seats have been talked about in the past, but everyone recognises that this is not the time to increase the number of seats in the Assembly. The Green Paper also asks whether there should be a fixed term of five years, whether candidates should stand for both constituency and regional lists, and whether AMs can also be MPs or Peers.

We already have four-year fixed terms, but it has been agreed that this Assembly will serve a five-year term until 2016 to avoid clashing with the planned general election in 2015. Should we now move to a permanent five-year fixed term? If we revert back to a four-year term, we will get the same problems in 2020 when the general election and the Assembly elections would be held on the same day. I think that the general feeling is to hold the elections at separate times. We all know why that would probably be for the best, but it is right that we should consult on the matter. However, there is a widely held view that the two elections should not clash.

In the Government of Wales Act 2006, the Labour Government did away with what we believed was the anomaly of allowing a candidate to stand both for a constituency seat and in the regional list. That was a manifesto commitment made for the 2005 election. It was something that confused the Welsh electorate. A candidate who was defeated in the constituency could then become a Member of the Welsh Assembly by virtue of being on the regional list. It is now clear that defeated candidates in the constituency cannot gain a list seat; they must make a choice on whether to stand for the constituency or in the regional list.

Should people be able to serve in the Assembly and in the House of Commons or the House of Lords? It will be interesting to see what comes out of this consultation. There is a view that there should be some degree of overlap for a period of time because if someone who is a Member of the House of Commons is then elected to the Assembly, there should be a period of overlap to allow exchanges to take place. That happened in 1999 when a number of MPs were elected to the Welsh Assembly and stood down at the next general election. It also happens the other way around, with AMs being elected to the House of Commons.

The present arrangement of 40 constituency seats and 20 list seats, a ratio of two-thirds to one-third, is how the Assembly has been elected since 1999. If the boundaries change and the number of constituency and list seats changes from the present ratio of 40:20 to 30:30, this will be regarded as a major change, not just a minor adjustment in how Members of the Assembly are elected. The Secretary of State says in the Green Paper that the Government prefer option 2, to make the parliamentary boundaries and the Assembly boundaries the same. She states that there is,

“greater complexity in having different boundaries for Parliamentary and Assembly elections than the present arrangement”.

However, Scotland has different boundaries, which means that an analysis could be made to see if there are difficulties for Scottish electors when they cast their votes. However, to my knowledge, no analysis has been made. There is no evidence to suggest that there are problems in Scotland and therefore no evidence to justify the case the Secretary of State is making for the 30:30 ratio. We note that the Government are not proposing such a measure for Scotland.

The fundamental point of principle here is that it is for the people of Wales to decide on major changes to their electoral arrangements, either through a referendum or by a manifesto commitment. In a debate on the Green Paper in the Welsh Assembly on 12 June, First Minister Carwyn Jones said:

“I received an assurance on two occasions from the Prime Minister that there would be no change without the consent of the Assembly, and I am on record as saying that. I took that assurance in good faith and I expect it to be adhered to. However, the reality is that Scotland will continue to have different boundaries for Scottish Parliament and UK Parliament constituencies. If it works in Scotland, what evidence is there that it could not work in Wales? None is offered”.

I am very pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, in his place today, taking part in our debate. He has confirmed that when he was Presiding Officer he too received assurances from the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State that there would be no changes to the boundaries to coincide with the Westminster boundaries. What are we to believe regarding commitments given by the Prime Minister as far as Wales is concerned? Last year we had a UK referendum on the voting system to the House of Commons but at least we knew this was a commitment of the coalition Government. Where was the commitment for this Green Paper? As the First Minister said last week, it has come “out of the blue”.

The Green Paper is before us and my party will play a constructive role by making a submission to the consultation. I understand that the Government will publish their response in November. When could we think of having a further debate on the Government’s proposals, and when can we expect legislation? Finally, I ask the Minister: why are the coalition Government reluctant to allow the Welsh people to decide on these matters for themselves? Why instead are they taking this top-down approach? It is our belief that it is for the people of Wales to decide what kind of electoral system they want. Let them decide what they believe is the best system to serve democracy in Wales. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Parliamentary Constituencies and Assembly Electoral Regions (Wales) (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Baroness Gale and Baroness Randerson

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving his explanation of the order. He said that the numbers were small and that it was more or less a tidying-up operation in terms of the boundaries.

In October 2010, the Boundary Commission for Wales submitted a report that affected the constituencies of Brecon and Radnorshire, where 18 electors were affected. In January 2011, the Boundary Commission submitted a further three reports. Those affected the boundaries of Ogmore, Pontypridd, Cardiff North, Cardiff South and Penarth, and the Vale of Glamorgan. Again, small numbers are affected, except in Pontypridd, where the number is 600-odd. By that time, we were in the run-up to the Assembly elections, so there was no time to implement the changes, but we hope that the changes in the order before us today will be ready for the 2016 Welsh Assembly elections.

Paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Notes says that,

“the Order is being brought forward in good time for the next Welsh Assembly elections”.

Paragraph 9.1 says:

“The changes being made … will be applicable for the next elections for the National Assembly for Wales, currently scheduled for 2016”.

Although this all seems very straightforward, I am sure the Minister, who mentioned it briefly, is aware that there is a big row brewing over this. We need clarification.

As I say, it seems straightforward enough but I need to ask whether the Minister is aware of the differences between this order and what the Secretary of State for Wales said, on record in the House of Commons, in answer to a question on 11 May 2011 from the Member of Parliament for Carmarthen East and Dynevor. He asked:

“Given the Labour party’s opposition to decoupling Westminster and National Assembly constituency boundaries, would it not make sense to base the make-up of the fifth National Assembly on 30 regional and 30 constituency Assembly Members?”.

The Secretary of State’s response was:

“That is a very interesting thought. Hon. Members are well aware that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 broke the link between Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies. I have agreed that we need to look carefully at the implications of having constituency boundaries relating to different areas and regions for UK and Assembly elections … I am taking the hon. Gentleman’s question as a recommendation that we have 30 first-past-the-post seats and 30 elected on a list system”.—[Official Report, Commons, 11/5/11; col. 1148.]

She said that she is looking at that suggestion. That response is a little different from what we have before us today.

On 30 July the Secretary of State, again answering questions relating to the boundaries, had a meeting with the Welsh Affairs Committee, at which my honourable friend Owen Smith asked her whether it was true that Welsh officials had,

“recently met the Boundary Commission and political parties in Wales and said at that meeting that they were looking for a legislative vehicle to address changing the boundaries of the Assembly constituencies in Wales?”.

In her reply the Secretary of State said:

“As far as I am concerned, we will have to look at that”.

This is very confusing. I do not know whether the Minister has had time to look at the Western Mail this morning. I am glad to see that he has. He will have read the headline:

“First Minister’s startling appeal to David Cameron bypasses Cheryl Gillan”.

The Western Mail says:

“First Minister Carwyn Jones has bypassed Welsh Secretary Cheryl Gillan and gone directly to the Prime Minister in a bid to defuse an explosive row over how AMs are elected”.

The Minister mentioned that briefly at the end of his speech. What we need in Wales is clarification that the order before us will be used for the election in 2016, and for the Minister to confirm that any changes to any of the systems in Wales will be as a result of the wishes of the Welsh people. This is a big row in Wales. I hope that the Minister appreciates how important these issues are, and that he will confirm that our arrangements today will be met in the 2016 elections.

[Baroness Randerson]

Noble Lords will forgive me if my comments are very brief, for obvious reasons; it is not easy for me to project my voice today. In my first points I will concentrate on what is in this order, not on what is not. Having read it, I confirm—and agree with the Minister—that the order appears to affect very few people and does not make significant changes. There were no representations against it to the Boundary Commission. It decouples the Westminster and Assembly seats. I ask the Minister to confirm that such decoupling exists satisfactorily in Scotland and is a workable solution.

I know that the Labour Party is concerned about the reduction in the number of constituencies for the general election. We should all welcome the fact that the number of constituencies is maintained in this order, which will not affect Assembly elections and, therefore, the total number of Assembly Members. I am aware of the First Minister’s letter to the Prime Minister asking that there should be no change to the system, and it is clear that this is the default position that is put in place by this order. The noble Baroness has referred to exchanges in the House of Commons; Peter Hain MP has made it clear that he would like Wales to move to a situation where each constituency is represented by two Assembly Members, which would do away with the proportionality of the system in Wales. That is something which would case a great deal of concern across other parties and the electorate, because that was the settlement that was put to the electorate at the time when the Assembly was established. It is therefore very useful for us to have a clear default option that—whatever the discussions that are going on or the thoughts of the Secretary of State for Wales, and whatever the thoughts of the First Minister of Wales might be—it is important that we acknowledge that this is a settled situation ready for the next Assembly elections in 2016.