Waste: Incineration

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to implement the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation to pause permission for new incineration plants to allow for a review of the treatment of residual waste.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to transitioning to a circular economy. We are considering the role of energy from waste in the context of circularity, economic growth and reaching net zero. As part of this, we are giving consideration to the Climate Change Committee’s recommendation. This year, Defra will publish an analysis of energy-from-waste capacity in England to inform future policy. We continue work to implement packaging reforms, drive up recycling rates and take material out of incineration.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister, but I am deeply dissatisfied. This Government, in whom I had a lot of trust, have made the deeply irresponsible decision to allow the Portland incinerator to go ahead. I declare an interest as a resident of Dorset, although nowhere near Portland. Incineration and energy from waste is not a practical way forward; it is very damaging both in terms of public health and environmentally. I beg the Minister to speak to her department and suggest getting better advice on energy?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, it does say in the Companion that you should not thank a noble Member for their Question—so, on this occasion, I will not. The environmental permitting regulations prevent the incineration of separately collected paper, metal, glass or plastic waste, unless it has gone through some sort of treatment process first. Following that treatment, incineration is seen to be the best environmental outcome. We know that the recycling rate is too low, that we burn too much waste and that, for too long, recycling rates in England have plateaued. The way forward is to look at the whole big picture and our circular economy ambitions are designed to address this.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, but it is also daunting, because she can speak without notes for eight minutes. I cannot do that because I have so many complaints about the Bill, so excuse me for reading notes.

We have heard about the organisation River Action a couple of times; I am on its board and it will be playing a role in giving advice to the Government on how the Bill can be improved.

I know that the Minister knows how much I admire her and trust her as a Minister and in her role today. But, at the same time, the Bill is deeply disappointing. It is disappointing to the point of being almost a joke, because it does not do what the majority of people would like it to do. It is about the regulation of a capitalist monopoly and the good management of a privatised cash machine that water bill payers subsidise. The money just goes straight out and we do not get a benefit. The Bill tries to regulate by using the same people and organisations that have failed for the past 30 years. How can that change? I do not see that that is possible.

The Bill also tries to threaten the top people with jail time using the same tools that have been failing to work for 20 years. What it does not do is get back the billions of pounds that these company shareholders have pocketed for decades, or even stop those same shareholders from pocketing billions of pounds of our money in the future. Nor does it stop the water companies dumping sewage in the waterways. Instead, we hear about Ofwat making backroom deals that will keep the private companies in business by weakening the enforcement of regulations. I do not understand how that can be happening.

We should enforce the regulations—if the businesses fail, they fail—and let the companies know that this Government want the work done. Ofwat has made clear that the water companies have had the money they need, so they must either get the job done or give us a refund. What the Government should not do is allow these companies to run up more debts in order to pay out more dividends. Those debts and dividend payments have already cost us four months-worth of water bill payments. In what other area of life are consumers paying out four months-worth of bills each year but getting nothing back in return?

We are not even being offered a guarantee of clean water or that the leaks will be fixed. In fact, we have the insanity of a country soaked in record rainfall arranging a deal that would use tankers to import Norwegian water in the event of drought. That is so lunatic that I cannot even finish my sentence about it. As other noble Lords have said, water is a basic of life. We need water—all life needs water—so why is it in private hands and subject to profiteering?

Much of this Bill is about what happens when a water company fails and goes into a special administrative regime. Ministers have said on several occasions that they will not bring water companies into public ownership because of the cost. They have been quoting a six year-old Social Market Foundation report, but they ignore the very recent calculations by Moody’s and the S&P credit rating agency that these shares are junk. Their estimate of how much it would cost is very different.

Professor Ewan McGaughey of King’s College London said:

“Special administration would not cost the Treasury or taxpayers anything ... special administration enables the Minister to put a plan before”


the High Court to cancel a company’s debt

“if continued payments to banks would interfere with properly carrying out the water company’s sewage or clean water functions”.

So why does the Minister not just do that? Special administration sounds great and very cheap. As Professor McGaughey said:

“The best way to clean our water is with more investment. Forty percent more investment would be possible if we stop bailing out banks and shareholders with billpayer rises. It will cost us over £12.5 billion this Parliament to keep paying shareholders and banks. … The right way to close this black hole is to make failed companies lose their licences, cancel the debt and transition to public water … This is all possible under the existing law”.


As for the debt that was accumulated to pay shareholder dividends, I understand that the Thames Water debt is now being traded by hedge funds. They are buying this debt on the cheap because they think this Government are stupid enough, or corrupt enough, to compensate them at a higher level. As much as I hate the idea of rewarding the parasites in our water industry with compensation for worthless shares, I dislike even more the idea of hedge-fund managers making a profit from a Labour Government’s ideological rejection of public ownership, so will the Minister give me an assurance that minimal compensation will be paid to the creditors of failed water companies and that our water bills will not be used to line the pockets of the hedge funds?

The Minister mentioned in her opening statement that this Bill had public support. I knocked on a lot of doors during the general election—I spoke to a lot of people in their homes and on the streets—and I think that a huge number of people, if not the majority, would support the following criteria for a more radical water Bill: no compensation for shareholders, minimal compensation for creditors, and public ownership being one of the options for these failed companies.

I will bring forward amendments to ensure that this Bill does not simply allow these failed zombie companies to continue extracting bill payers’ cash while loading huge amounts of debt on to the balance sheet. The Government need a serious look at the opportunity to bring these companies into public ownership, and this Bill should give Ministers the option to nationalise these companies where it makes sense.

Environment and Climate Change Committee Report: An Extraordinary Challenge: Restoring 30 per cent of our Land and Sea by 2030

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 11th September 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, for securing the debate and getting so many people together to speak on the environment. It was a very clever thing to do. The report is also good, and I thank the committee.

It is an extraordinary experience for me to agree with virtually everything that everybody has said in this debate. That is highly unusual for a Green—even among Greens in the Green Party. I thank your Lordships for the wonderful things that have been said. It is also interesting to follow the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, with whom I mostly agreed—mostly.

If I get irritable during my speech, it is because the Green Party has been saying this sort of thing for 50 years. I have personally been saying it for only 36 years, but it still gets a little repetitive sometimes. In essence, when we look at the basics of human life, without nature, we cease to exist. Without life in our oceans, the whole planet goes awry, and we cease to exist. Nature is not just something to enjoy—although that is a good aspect of it—it is our life support. Nature is resilient but, with humanity’s decimation of our species and habitats, life has become more fragile and precious.

We have conservation programmes across the UK and the globe, but climate change puts them all under threat. There are fewer birds in our skies, fish in our seas and bees on our crops. One in six UK wildlife species is now at risk of extinction. As Britain heats up, plants, insects, birds, animals and people will all need to shift north. That is happening right now and, unless we hit this 2030 target, it is possible that green corridors, the right soils and suitable spaces will not be there for many species.

A report by Wildlife and Countryside Link estimated that just 3% of land and up to 8% of sea are effectively protected for nature in England. I hope that the new Government have not been fooled by the rubbish we had from the last Government about our being on track to meet the 2030 target. It is absolutely clear that we are not on track and have a real problem.

Obviously, the Green Party offers big solutions to these big challenges. First, we need an independent commission for nature, which would protect nature and ensure the restoration of wildlife habitats. This new watchdog should be created as part of a new rights of nature Act that would enshrine the intrinsic value of nature in law. I am so sorry if I am stumbling; I can write with only my left hand at the moment, which I am not very good at, and I am having trouble reading my writing.

This independent commission for nature would set up targets for nature protection and restoration, and would enforce them through the courts; that is a very important issue. This would give individuals, communities and conservation groups the opportunity to take legal action on behalf of nature. We need legislation that sets standards for soil quality and phases out the most harmful pesticides immediately as we move towards regenerative farming methods. Only pesticides that pass this test and demonstrably do not harm bees, butterflies and other wildlife should be approved for use in the UK.

Of course, one quick win would be to stop the use of peat for horticulture. Let us ban imports of peat. Let us stop using it and understand that the damage we do to peat bogs—including peat bogs in other countries where imported peat comes from—is unrecoverable.

I hope that the Minister will do everything that she can to prevent any rollback of the existing protections for the green belt, national landscapes and sites of special scientific interest; I am sure that she will because I know that she cares. Those protections should be strengthened, not weakened. Having clean water in national parks should be obvious but it is not there. Will the Government change the rules to make it compulsory and tell the water company bosses that they will be given community service orders if they dump sewage in Windermere and every other precious waterway? I would love to see some water company bosses on their hands and knees restoring the rivers that they have absolutely trashed, and I know that my friend Feargal Sharkey would love some help with the chalk streams that run through England.

While the Government consult on that, can the Minister urgently publish the regulation and guidance needed to enforce the recent legislation that Peers helped to pass on water companies having duties to further national park purposes? Further, can the Minister promise legislation to make it absolutely clear that national parks are nature designations as well as landscape designations? There is something cold and disconnected about knowing that a beautiful landscape is a poisonous, no-go area for wildlife.

Now we come on to money. The Government will have got off to a bad start if they cut £100 million from their annual budget for nature-friendly farming in England. This cut will mean at least 239,000 fewer hectares of nature-friendly farmland, according to research from the RSPB. The Green Party argues not only that we can afford to promote nature-friendly farming but that—here, we agree with the National Farmers’ Union—a big increase in the budget is an essential step towards promoting havens for wildlife, as well as cleaning up our water supply. The Government want to protect our coastlines and oceans but there is no money to monitor progress or even establish a baseline to work from.

Of course, a ban on bottom trawling is another essential; I really do not understand the delay in making that happen, but the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, covered this issue absolutely fantastically. Could the Minister perhaps make a statement on the appointment of a Minister with a portfolio of responsibility for the international marine environment?

Finally, can we please ratify the Global Ocean Treaty agreement, which seeks to conserve marine biology? I realise that this would be a huge task for a new Government but, if the Government do not come up with the right policies, it will be to all our disbenefit.

Water Companies: Financial Resilience

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I too welcome the noble Baroness to her new post; I am sure she will be superb. How many water companies are currently financially resilient?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her welcome. I am sure she has seen the environmental performance assessment that came out today. It reports that most companies continue to underperform and there continue to be a lot of concerns in this area. On the specific question she asked, I will write to her with the proper information so I know I am accurate.

Water Companies: Failure

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have a plan for Thames Water and other water companies if they fail.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Douglas-Miller) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as in the register. As set out in statute, if a water company became insolvent or were in serious breach of its principal statutory duties or an enforcement order, it would enter special administration. The statutory purpose of special administration is to ensure that the company continues to operate and that customers continue to receive their water and wastewater services.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer, but it does not sound like much of a plan—there is not much detail there. I declare an interest as a member of the advisory board of River Action. I will put a plan forward; I am happy to share it with the Government because it is better than that one. The plan is that, as soon as any water company fails—and several are looking as if they are on that path now—we take it back into public ownership. We do not make taxpayers and bill payers pay extortionate amounts—we would keep it very cheap; I can explain how—and we stop the pollution as soon as possible, because we have all had enough.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her very comprehensive plan and look forward to talking to her in detail. In the meantime, I assure her that the Government and Ofwat, the financial regulator of the water sector, carefully monitor the situation. Ofwat continues to engage with Thames Water to support it in improving its resilience within the context of its licence and broader statutory obligations. Fundamentally, it is the companies’ responsibility to continue to raise capital, and they should continue to explore this while fulfilling their statutory obligations of providing water and wastewater services to their customers.

Sewage Pollution: Lakes and Rivers

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 30th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the advisory board of River Action, which is committed to cleaning up our rivers. The Minister said that it is a top priority for the Government, and I assure him that, on doorsteps and on the streets, it is also a top priority for people—for voters. The issue of public ownership keeps coming up. The first time a water company fails—for example, Thames Water—why not take it over, load the debt into the company so that it can gradually pay off its own debt and ensure that no dividends are paid out?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises a very interesting prospect, which I will consider carefully and take back to the department.

Fur: Import and Sale

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they are taking steps to ban the import and sale of fur.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Douglas-Miller) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as set out in the register. Fur farming is banned in the UK, and there are already import restrictions, which means that some skin and fur products may not be legally imported. In Our Action Plan for Animal Welfare, Defra committed to explore further potential action in relation to the import of fur from abroad, but we have continued to build our evidence base, including commissioning a report from our Animal Welfare Committee.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

The action plan to which the Minister refers was produced in June 2021, nearly three years ago. Knowing that we are a nation of animal lovers and that the number of animals killed for fur is estimated worldwide at 130 million, most of them kept in appalling conditions and suffering mental and physical distress, why on earth cannot the Government bring a popular Bill, for a change, to this House, so that it can vote for something happily—instead of the Rwanda Bill, for example?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

My Lords, there is a good news story on this, because the volume of fur that is imported and exported has fallen by 50% in the past five years. In the action plan for animal welfare, Defra committed to explore potential action in relation to the import of fur from abroad. The call for evidence that Defra published in 2021 was a key step in delivering that commitment. A summary of the replies received should be published in due course; in the meantime, we are continuing to build our evidence base on the fur sector, which will be used to inform any future action on the fur trade. We have also commissioned a report from our expert Animal Welfare Committee, which I mentioned earlier, on what constitutes responsible sourcing in the fur industry. This report will support our understanding of the fur industry and help to inform our next steps.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I am not aware of any analysis on that, but I will look into it and take it back to the department.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I asked this specific Question three years ago. I have not had an answer in those three years and I do not like the Answer today. Is it any wonder that I get so annoyed with this Government? Please, bring us back a proper answer on this.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I am distressed that we are causing the noble Baroness so much discomfort—that is certainly not the intention of the Government nor, indeed, my department at Defra. As I stated, I do take a personal interest in this; I have attended a number of meetings on it over the last month or so and I am endeavouring to get a response shortly, which I hope will satisfy the noble Baroness.

Food Security

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. This month the Environment Secretary appointed Will Quince MP as an independent adviser to support our ongoing work to improve food procurement in the public sector. His review will look at how we can increase the impact and reach of the existing government buying standards for food and catering services and promote our high standards in places such as residential care, hospitals and schools.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

The Bishop.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Really?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question. Defra has a large outreach programme with its constituent members, particularly its farming community. We monitor a lot of this work most of the time. Through ELMS we can assess the impact we are having on improving the environment.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made, since the introduction of the precision breeding Bill, of the risk to the environment of releasing into it genetically modified plants?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a serious question on a serious subject. The Government are in the process of assessing this impact, and I hope to write to him shortly with the answer to his question.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords—for the third time—can the Minister answer the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell: at the Farm to Fork event, will there be people from the environmental lobby who are well-informed about how to preserve nature?

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

Perhaps we could invite the noble Baroness to attend; that might solve the problem completely.

Environment Agency

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the work of the Environment Agency in protecting public health and the environment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Douglas-Miller) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. Protecting public health and the environment is a priority for the Government. The Environment Agency, as a regulator, operator of flood defences, technical adviser on the environment and category 1 responder, is up to the challenge. Defra works closely with the Environment Agency to ensure that it is equipped to carry out its functions effectively and to deliver for the public. Since 2015, the Environment Agency’s budget has been increased by more than £700 million to £1.96 billion in this past year.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. A fuller Answer might be that the Environment Agency is dysfunctional because of government cuts, but let me be more positive and move on to the future. From 1 January 2028, which is quite a long way in the future, the Environment Agency will be able to rescind, revoke or change any licences of water companies which are damaging chalk streams, which, as the Minister knows, are a precious resource. Globally, we have most of them here. Is a list already being drawn up? Some 77% of this country’s chalk streams are already failing to reach good ecological status, so the list needs to be written today if it is to be enacted on 1 January 2028.

[Lord Douglas-Miller (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes an insightful point about these precious and irreplaceable water bodies—chalk streams. Indeed, 2028 is a key date for changing the current system. Specifically, 95 licences have been revoked in chalk stream catchments since 2008. In addition to reducing the burden of abstraction pressures, the Government are protecting chalk streams and have identified them as a priority site in our storm overflows discharge reduction plan. We are also delivering restoration projects amounting to 400 kilometres in chalk stream areas, increasing investment into restoring chalk stream catchments and looking at further options as part of the environmental land management plan. Defra is also working closely with colleagues in Natural England and the Environment Agency on the chalk streams recovery package, which is intended to set out the broader approach to protecting and recovering chalk streams.

Pollution in Rivers and Regulation of Private Water Companies

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 29th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, it is such a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, who really does his homework. I advocate to the Government Benches reading his speech in Hansard just to make sure that they have got the full picture.

I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, on bringing this topic up again. When I was thinking about what to say, I wondered whether I should just print off my speeches from six months, a year or two years ago. We have debated this issue a lot; there is strength of feeling here. The Minister might stand up and say, in his innocence, “But we’re doing more than any other Government have ever done on this issue”. That may be true but, unfortunately, the situation has got worse and the Government are not doing enough.

We have had some really good briefings on this issue. The Rivers Trust produced a very good report saying things such as this:

“No single stretch of river in England or Northern Ireland is in good overall health”.


That is shameful. It also said that 85% of river stretches in England have failed to reach good ecological health, and that toxic chemicals pollute every stretch of English rivers. What a legacy this Government have left us. This will come up on doorsteps—I am going to make sure that it does if I have anything to do with it—and the Government will be shamed.

We also had a very good briefing from Sustain. It made the point that the main cause of river pollution is livestock farming—that of chickens and other animals. This is perfectly true but it does not mean that sewage will not be important; somehow, the general public have heard the word “sewage” and will ask questions about it.

We had a briefing from Windrush Against Sewage Pollution. It talks about the inadequate monitoring and the fact that there simply is not enough data to know the full picture. This is something that the Government have not taken seriously. The Freshwater Future briefing called for the regulation of private water companies.

Clearly, we are all tired of talking about this and of the Government replying in platitudes, saying how it is going to be fine and that they have done everything anyone could possibly do. They have not. I think that even the two noble Lords on the Front Bench know that water regulation has failed; I would be very disappointed if they did not know that basic fact.

I have all sorts of facts and figures here but, quite honestly, I will have to cut those bits out of my speech because the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, has used them all. It is time that all politicians of all political parties question and reject the ideological belief in water privatisation; it has failed. Once you are free of that ideological straitjacket, when the water companies say, “We’ll go bankrupt if you don’t let us raise the average water bill by £150 a year”, you can say, “No problem. We can take you over; that is fine. You failed. We’ll buy you for 50 pence”, or whatever.

The water companies had the public money to invest but, instead, they paid it out in dividends. Either they can do what they were paid to do already or they can go bankrupt. As I say, we can buy them. An even better solution has been put forward by the charity We Own It, which suggests that, instead of the stupid, paltry fines that the water companies keep getting thrown at them—they pay them quite happily because they just do not care; it is not much money—we could take shares from them every time. We could be quite strict and tough about it, then we would have them in no time.

The water companies are saying that they need the predicted £150-a-year rise in bills with which they are insulting us at the moment in order to invest over the next 27 years. However, the £57 billion that the Government are offering is the same amount of money that those water companies have paid to shareholders in the previous 27 years. Where is the guarantee that any money we give to these water companies will actually be spent on the things we care about? I would argue that we have absolutely no guarantee.

Of course, Ofwat has failed and the Environment Agency has failed. I feel very sad about that. Instead of our regulators acting years ago to clamp down on CEO bonuses and shareholder dividends, they are still going to private dinner clubs with the water industry to discuss how to quell the public anger at sewage and rising bills. As I said, there will be anger over this at the next general election. The cost of living will be the major concern but sewage will come up.

I have had quite a lot of people saying to me, “Oh, we should just take all these CEOs and top execs to court, throw them in jail and forget about them, basically”. I am not a big fan of putting people in prison. What we should do with all these top execs is give them community service. They should be out there on the riverbanks and the beaches clearing up the mess that they have made. A couple of years of doing that and possibly other CEOs would learn that you cannot carry on polluting our natural resources in that way.

I will cut huge chunks of my speech out now, which I am sure everybody will be very happy about. Local campaigners in West Oxfordshire have worked with the district council to ensure that planning applications have conditions set for Thames Water to upgrade illegal sewerage systems before accepting the occupancy of new housing. The effectiveness of the conditions is being tested, with the first examples under way. The Environment Agency has been prodded into action, and on one application of 1,450 houses north of Oxford it said clearly that the Oxford sewage works is operating illegally and has failed to upgrade, despite the water company having had the money years ago.

I do not want there to be a shortage of housing. I do not want us to stop building new housing; I want to stop our polluting some very precious ecosystems. The same rule that I have just talked about would apply to any new housing served by the Oxford sewage works and every other illegally operating sewage works in the country. It will stop a new deluge of sewage being dumped into local rivers due to overloaded systems.

How many sewage works around the country are currently operating illegally and do not have the capacity to handle the existing levels of sewage? This is a very important question. If we do not have the data on that, we really ought to. Perhaps the Minister can write to me and to everybody about that, because it is a crucial question. You cannot fix a problem if you do not know what it is and how big it is.

Lastly, can the Minister explain how water companies that are blocking new housing from being occupied and have never invested the money given to them to produce a modern sewerage system can now be expected to do so? We have let the water companies run rampant over our very precious land, rivers, waterways and all sorts of ecosystems. It is time we stopped them.