Farmers

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 8th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I have been absolutely determined to facilitate much more access to the countryside on my brief watch in this post, but the truth is that we could spend ELMS 20 times over on different schemes. We have a crisis of species decline and are one of the most nature-depleted countries in the world. We therefore have to use ELMS to do that. There are many other things that we could be and are doing, but I want us to focus on how people want to access the country. Some people do want to walk right round the coast of England but some just want to walk out of their town on a circular route. I want to ensure that we are working with farmers and landowners to deliver for those sorts of people as well.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned incentivising farmers. I would like to know how he thinks that the Government are incentivising farmers when they do environmentally unfriendly trade deals with places such as Australia, which come in and undercut our farmers’ produce on animal welfare and environmental value?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We have a firm commitment that, in all trade deals, we will not compromise on environmental and animal welfare standards. We also have to recognise that, if you are going to bring food right across from the other side of the world, there is a carbon price to pay for that. We want to make sure we are favouring local food, produced sustainably by British farmers, and that is what we are working to achieve.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Thursday 7th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend the Minister on bringing the Bill to this stage. My concerns about it have not changed, but we are where we are. I want to lend my support to and associate myself in particular with Amendment 1. In doing so, I repeat that I am a fellow of the British Veterinary Association and share some of the concerns outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, regarding its practice.

I seek reassurance from my noble friend as to the response of the devolved Parliaments to the amendments. Have the Government had the chance to square the amendments with them? I further seek reassurance that in the operation of the Bill the Government, particularly my noble friend’s department, will be mindful of the role that farmers and especially livestock producers play in rearing our farm animals, and perhaps recognise that they are best placed to respect animal welfare and are masters in their own right of animal husbandry.

I hope that, in light of the short debate we had elsewhere in Questions this week, the Government will be mindful of the fact that there is still a severe shortage of seasonal workers which is impacting on abattoirs and the slaughter of animals. I hope that there will not be any undue concern over potential animal welfare consequences of that. I realise that it is not entirely within the scope of the Bill, but I wish to draw it to my noble friend’s attention. I congratulate him on accepting the two amendments before us today.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I had thought that the Government had completely forgotten this Bill, because it has been so long threading its way through both Houses. Anyway, I am glad that it is happening. It is not the Bill that I would like to have seen passed, but I guess that we have to accept it, since it is better than nothing—although that is not exactly glowing praise. I hope that we can see some effectiveness coming from the Bill and real action, so I say well done for bringing it back and getting us to this point.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I want first to thank my noble friend the Minister, who has put an inordinate amount of effort into discussing concerns about this Bill with those of us who have them. I congratulate him not only on becoming a grandfather but on landing this Bill, as he does today.

However, it remains a very bad Bill and I think it is worth repeating why. It is not because it entails a huge administrative reorganisation; in this House, we take huge administrative reorganisations in our stride. We have been reorganising the National Health Service over the past few weeks, which is possibly the largest organisation in the world, certainly in Europe. The Government’s defence of the measure is essentially that it is administratively very minor: it just sets up a committee; it is an advisory committee, and Ministers will make final decisions—“There is nothing to see here; move on”. But the important part of the Bill is not its administrative effects but the fact that it is a declaratory Bill. It declares something in the law of the United Kingdom for the first time to be true—that is, that animals, vertebrates and certain non-vertebrates, are sentient. I know that this appeared previously in a treaty that we were party to, but it moves it on a considerable step to incorporate it into domestic law in this way.

It is worth asking why that declaration matters. It matters because it is very much part of the agenda of the animal rights movement to achieve agreement on three things. The first is that animals are sentient; the second is that sentience is the sole basis for judging moral conduct; and the third, as a consequence of that, is that humans and animals are to be treated on the same basis in moral terms. That is a complete upturning of our established view of moral conduct; it is a completely new anthropology. This Bill is therefore profoundly anti-human. It opens the door to a moral calculus in which people can ask the question: how much chimpanzee suffering is equivalent to a human baby suffering? That is why it remains a very bad Bill. It is a Bill that we will come to regret.

Water Companies: Duties and Accountability

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Lord will no doubt be pleased by the recent statutory policy statement by Ofwat. It is through the regulator that we ensure that companies perform well, that we do not reward bad behaviour, that we reflect proper accountability for such things as remuneration, and that where bad behaviour is found out, companies receive fines. Those fines do not hit the customer but hit those who would otherwise have received bonuses, and shareholders.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, there are so many ways to ask these questions of the Government, but I turn to an expert in this field, Feargal Sharkey. He tells me that there has not been a single reservoir built since 2010 and, as far as he can tell, not since privatisation. Around London, the last one built was the Queen Mother reservoir back in 1976. The National Audit Office is calculating that by 2050 England will have a shortfall of some 4 billion litres of water per day. How will Defra fix that?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

One of the measures that we seek to take through the five-year AMP process is to get water companies to look 25 years ahead at their water demands. There is a need for new reservoirs. One could well be built in the upper reaches of the Thames, and I recently visited an existing reservoir in East Anglia that had been increased in size. This all has to be taken into account, particularly in determining how we encourage water companies to move water from one area to another to reflect demand.

National Food Strategy

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Thursday 24th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Government have consulted widely on this and there is significant evidence that banning junk food advertising at certain times of the day on certain channels does have an effect on the younger elements of our society who are partial to junk food. I respectfully disagree with my noble friend. This is an opportunity to take a small step as part of a much bigger picture to protect people from unhealthy diets.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I chaired the London Food Board, which produced the first London food strategy. In that, the biggest win for people and planet was to eat local food. This Government are not supporting our UK farmers but are buying food, which we can produce, from half way around the world. How is that helping our UK farmers?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Quite to the contrary, we want people to eat good-quality, sustainably produced food with high welfare standards. The intention is to enable farmers to produce that successfully in a global marketplace. Ultimately, it is the consumer who makes these choices. We want to ensure that we are giving farmers every support they need to continue producing the high-quality food that our consumers benefit from.

Hunting Trophies

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My Lords, I am not an expert on this, but I understand that the bearskin is a product of a heritage cull which has to take place in certain parts of the world and is not an endangered species import.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister is infamous for breaking his promises. He has promised this ban, but will it be another broken promise?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

My Lords, there is a Bill coming forward relating to issues of animals abroad. That will be published in the near future. The noble Baroness would not expect me to second-guess parliamentary procedures, but it will be introduced soon.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Report stage & Lords Hansard - part one
Monday 6th December 2021 Lords Chamber

I am sorry to say it, but the Bill is a dog’s breakfast and that has not been improved by these terms of reference. I am sorry that the Opposition, on whose Benches I sit, have not seen fit to raise the objections to what are, one would have thought, fundamental defects in legislation. If the Bill is not clarified and amended to indicate its limits and its purpose, then a great deal of public money and public time is going to be wasted on it. I still marvel at how a Government who were elected in part on a promise to reduce bureaucracy, especially that emanating from Europe, have taken the wholly uncontroversial issue of animal sentience, which no one would have argued with, and are trying to turn it into a textbook bureaucratic nightmare.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, in Committee a lot of us argued very strongly for several amendments, and one of course was to strengthen the terms of reference and ensure that the committee was free and independent from government interference. I was very happy to spend today arguing over various amendments and we have here a whole hotchpotch of them, some of which are fine. However, we also have a naked attempt to filibuster and scupper the Bill by the right wing of the Tory party. I say: “Shame on you”. This Bill is far from perfect, but it is better than it was. Noble Lords must know that the public care very much about this issue and want to see something on the books.

It was also, of course, a manifesto commitment by the Government. I should have thought that noble Lords opposite would have supported it and been loyal Conservative Party members. I shall not speak again in this debate, because I think that it is a complete waste of my time. I shall simply vote against all the spoiling amendments that noble Lords opposite have put forward.

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness and see her so loyally supporting my Government—and in the Lobbies as well, no doubt.

I shall add a point to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and, in reference to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, emphasise the question of the terms of reference and what they do to complicate the work of the committee. By the way, the chairman of this committee is supposed to spend 20 days a year on this, yet he has to look at all past policies, all future policies and all present policies in all aspects of government. That will be quite hard work for him.

The terms of reference note that the committee may seek outside input, including from “stakeholders amongst others”. If the committee is looking at process—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, made—rather than policy, why consult stakeholders? Similarly, the terms of reference suggest that the committee

“may wish to prioritise policies … which are more significant in terms of Parliamentary, Departmental, Stakeholder or public interest”.

Is this about ensuring that all due regard is had to animal welfare in the process of reaching policy decisions or about the issues and decisions themselves? Will the committee focus on animal welfare issues that are of high profile as a result of campaigning by interest groups, which does not seem to have been the original intention?

The terms of reference refer to it being

“beneficial for UK Government Departments to seek advice from the Committee to assist them in understanding the effects of particular policies on the welfare of animals”.

It seems from wording like this that the committee will look not simply at process but at the policy itself that is under consideration. I hope that my noble friend will address this point, as it seems to be an issue of mission creep that we need to understand.

Water: Sewage

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when water companies will be required to deliver the first stage of reductions in the level of sewage discharged into rivers and the sea.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Benyon) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that the current number of sewage discharges is unacceptable. Water companies are already making improvements, investing £3.1 billion in the current 2020 to 2025 planning cycle. They need to do much more, which is why we have taken action in the Environment Act and in our draft steer to Ofwat. Defra will set out the level of ambition expected in due course, including in the statutory government discharge reduction plan.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer. I also thank his colleague the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith, for his Answer to my Written Question last week, which was about the number of spillages in the lakes at Grasmere and Windermere. I had hoped for some sort of timetable—a few dates, a plan or process—but there was absolutely nothing. In fact, the Answer essentially committed only to maintaining existing levels of discharges, and therefore existing levels of pollution. When are the Government going to set a timetable that we can all see and measure the water companies against, for the whole of the UK?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am not aware of those two specific cases but we will be reporting to this House on our response to the timetable on all the measures—the eight duties listed in the Environment Act, and specifically on storm outflows—in the early part of next year.

Farming Rules for Water

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Monday 1st November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

We do have a lot of science on this. If we were to indulge in many years of further scientific investigation, it would be too late for certain rivers, which—I am using strong words here—will be ecologically dead if we do not take action. The rules are there and they have been set out in the code for good agricultural practice since 1985. We are working with farmers to make sure that we apply them proportionately and to assist them in changing their businesses to deal with what is a very real and present problem.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

When will the Government be as tough on water and sewerage companies as they are on farmers? They seem to be very firm on the rules for farmers, yet last week, in a vote in the other place, they were quite happy to turn a blind eye to the sewage discharges of water companies that have been going on for 30 years. When will the Government be tough on water companies and their sewage discharges?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

If I may say so, I think the noble Baroness is being unkind to the Environment Bill. It sets out many measures that will stop the current releases, which have been going on for decades, even centuries. We have probably one of the most advanced pieces of environmental legislation anywhere in the world. Is it enough? No, because we have to work across a great many other areas, including dealing with the problem from farming and other polluters.

Fisheries Act 2020 (Scheme for Financial Assistance) (England) Regulations 2021

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Wednesday 21st July 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his introduction, which was very clear. However, I do have some problems with this whole process. I support the idea of the funds going to remote electronic monitoring; that is very sensible and might be the only way that some smaller fishers are able to manage.

I would like to be able to say that UK fishing is in good health, and I would like to believe that the Government are world-leading on this, but I am afraid that that is a rather tired and overused phrase at the moment. This is not world-leading. Admittedly, I do not know much about what other countries are doing but I can say that, from a green point of view, this is not sustainable.

Fishing is an important part of our economy, particularly for coastal areas and for our food supply. Really, what we should have been hearing by now is that the potential environmental disaster on the horizon is going to be fixed. Quite honestly, this situation is tolerated only because it is largely unseen; most people do not know what goes on. For example, disturbance of the bottom ecosystem, caused by beam trawlers, is disastrous. I would be interested to hear whether there is any recognition of that. Then, there is marine plastic pollution from the sacrificial ware of beam trawlers—a huge issue that I have yet to hear be discussed. Moreover, turning to fuel consumption, a typical large boat averages about 2 litres per kilo of fish landed, making it two or three times worse than airfreighting vegetables from Kenya, which we all know is a very bad thing.

I am curious as to why day-boats get so little of the quota; that really does not seem fair. For example, in the south-west the huge majority of beam trawlers are owned by just two companies—Carets in Brixham and Stevens in Newlyn—and I just do not understand how that can possibly help smaller, local companies. Are the Government thinking about them at all?

I am also interested in what is really meant by a marine reserve and what is banned there, because sometimes it does not seem like very much. Reserves are obviously incredibly important. Of course, this is all without taking into account the sustainability or otherwise of the catches. That is why the remote electronic monitoring will be so valuable.

Turning to the regulations, I want to thank Green Alliance and ClientEarth for pointing out their concerns, which I share. While I welcome the exclusions set out in Regulation 5, including that grants may not be used to increase the fishing capacity of a boat, there is a missed opportunity to transform the way we support the fishing industry financially to deliver climate-smart fishing. These technologies are available and should be very high on the Government’s “to do” list. It is about more sustainable fishing practices and ocean recovery.

Section 33 of the Fisheries Act permits the Marine Management Organisation to place conditions on the payment of grants. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, pointed out, there are no environmental conditions on payments. That seems astonishing, given that the climate emergency is a very urgent issue.

In order for financial assistance to promote positive fishing practices, the regulations should be amended to include conditions on the provision and use of grants—for example, to encourage investment in more sustainable fishing gear that does not damage the wider marine environment, to help fishers adapt to technologies for efficient data collection, and for restoration schemes and the collection of marine waste by fishers.

The Minister talked about clean, healthy, productive biodiverse activity, but it has to be sustainable as well. At the moment, sustainability cannot be predicted or guaranteed through these measures.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

20: Clause 2, page 1, line 10, leave out “may” and insert “must”

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, before speaking to my amendments, I should just say that there is a certain underwater quality to the sound, and it has been quite difficult to follow the previous group. I think that is because somebody called John Turner has not muted. There are quite a lot of people who have not muted on the call, and I think that is giving some feedback—oh, he has now. Thank you. Let us see if that improves things.

It is my pleasure to open this debate on this group of amendments—or at least those amendments that seek to improve the committee and strengthen its functions, such as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft. I remind all noble Lords that this was a government promise. Something has to come out of this that is positive and that the general public, who asked for this, understand as being a reasonable policy. The Minister said that expert scrutiny is needed and that policy is not static. Can we not live 100 or 500 years in the past? Can we understand that things have to move on? As he also said, animal sentience is a fast-evolving field, and we need to make sure that we are up there, aware and legislating in the right way.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, who signed my Amendments 27 and 41, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. She is unable to be here for this group but she will be here later.

My Amendment 20 is the crucial one because it would toughen up the committee. I am not very welcoming of Amendments 21 and 22, which seem designed to weaken the committee into total obscurity. Why any scrutiny body would be reduced to the position of seeking permission from those it is scrutinising to actually do the scrutinising is beyond me, but then there are those who believe in the divine right of kings and see scrutiny of the Government as a bad thing.

I am very pleased that my Amendment 20 would have the opposite effect. I would like to see a strong, broad-based animal sentience committee that conducts deep analysis of all government policy to ensure that its impact on animals has been properly considered. I would much rather that the committee looked at everything in the round than sporadically look at piecemeal bits of policy. The former seems the right way to go, especially when the Bill is premised on the fact that these animals are sentient beings with the capacity to feel, perceive and experience. I have confidence that your Lordships can improve the Bill and give short shrift to the wrecking amendments that would reduce the sentience of the committee to a lump of stone. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to these amendments because I have an amendment in my name, which I will come to in a minute. First, I agreed with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, when she said that she hoped the committee would look at policy in the round. That is what we all hope. However, we all fear that it will not. We need reassurance from my noble friend the Minister to convince us. We are not conspiracy theorists; we are practitioners who wish to see this operating sensibly in the United Kingdom.

The reason for my Amendment 38 is perhaps best illustrated when we look at Amendment 46, which is also in this group and is in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady Young of Old Scone and Lady Hayman of Ullock. I look forward to hearing what they have to say on their amendment. I cannot detract from subsection (1) of their proposed new clause. It is quite right that, if a piece of legislation sets up a committee, that committee ought to report to Parliament to be properly scrutinised. But then we come to subsection (2), which is where I get a little concerned. First, in subsection (2)(b), the noble Baronesses propose

“an overview of the implementation of animal sentience requirements across government”.

As I read and understand this, if my noble friend the Minister is right that the animal sentience committee is all about—and I quote his words—“informing policy”, it should not be looking at the implementation of policy. That is for the Government and Ministers, having looked at whatever report comes out of the committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

My Lords, I think that I may be interrupted by a vote at some point so I will try to be quick, although I might not be.

I thank the Minister for his comments; I will read them in Hansard to make sure that I have understood fully where our interests overlap and where there is any divergence. I also thank all noble Lords who took part in the debate. I listened carefully to everybody. I know that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Lords, Lord Hamilton and Lord Mancroft, care deeply about these issues. Their views are valuable, but I found them quite repetitive. We have heard all this before. We have been told that the two committees will not clash and will have particular remits that will be extremely clear. I think that we perhaps underestimate the interest of both committees in terms of being able to understand where they might work together and where they absolutely must not because it is not relevant, so I do not have the same fears about any sort of overlapping.

I am happy that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, agree with the concept of policy in the round. The minute they started agreeing with me, I started to wonder whether I did not know what I was talking about, but I will look into that.

The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, is trying to tie the hands of the animal sentience committee. I just do not think that that is appropriate.

The noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, mentioned animal rights activists. This term has been thrown at me since we did round one of this Bill; perhaps he can tell me what he thinks he means by it in reference to me. He can always send me a private email if he would prefer.

I offer a big thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his comments and to the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Hayman, for their support, which is incredibly valuable. They both made an excellent summary —much better than I did. I thank them for that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, talked about the committee being a critical friend, which is incredibly valuable and something that the Government do not have enough of. I would argue that your Lordships’ House is a critical friend, but we do not always have the same opportunities to support the Government when they change their mind.

The noble Lord, Lord Robathan, talked about the tsunami of people who wanted us to put animal sentience back into legislation. Of course, most people probably had not used that term before, but they certainly had once the Government had taken it out of the EU legislation that they moved over—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab)]

I apologise to the noble Baroness but I must adjourn the Committee for five minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Committee is resumed and I call the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP) [V]]

Finally, I thank the Minister for his simple explanation of how the two committees will work. That is incredibly useful, and I hope that it calms the fears of the noble Lords who have worried about that during the course of the Bill. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 20 withdrawn.