Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Enforcement) (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Tuesday 25th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, this order aims to strengthen the ability of the Office for Product Safety & Standards to carry out its role in leading the response to national product safety incidents and to ensure consistency across the product safety system.

The order has a threefold purpose. First, it will enable the Secretary of State, and the Office for Product Safety & Standards on his behalf, to investigate potential safety issues related to consumer products regulated by the General Product Safety Regulations 2005, using the investigatory powers listed in Schedule 5 to the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Secondly, it will enable enforcement authorities in the UK, including local authority trading standards, district councils in Northern Ireland and the Secretary of State, to use those same investigatory powers to investigate claims about gas appliances and personal protective equipment. Thirdly, it makes a minor amendment to the Measuring Instruments Regulations 2016, and to the related reference in paragraph 10 of Schedule 5, to correct a typographical error.

The majority of claims about unsafe consumer products that fall under the General Product Safety Regulations 2005 are investigated by local authority trading standards in Great Britain and by district councils in Northern Ireland. So why give these investigatory powers to the Secretary of State? Part of the remit of the Office for Product Safety & Standards, created last year, is to take the lead in a serious product safety incident that needs managing at a national level. The office published Strengthening National Capacity for Product Safety: 2018-2020 Strategy, setting out its approach to managing this sort of incident. This order continues the process of developing the office’s national incident management capability. It allows the office to investigate claims of unsafe products in the context of a national incident, where a local trading standards authority or other relevant enforcement authority lacks the resources or expertise to do so. It does this by giving the office equivalent investigatory powers to those of local authority trading standards.

The order provides the full range of powers contained in Schedule 5 to the 2015 Act. This schedule includes powers to require the production and potential seizure of documents and to inspect and purchase products, as well as to test equipment and seize and detain goods. These are essential aspects of undertaking effective checks and actions in relation to unsafe goods. It is vital that our new national regulator has these powers across the broad spectrum of consumer products. These will enable it to provide leadership in incidents of national importance. The Secretary of State, and the Office for Product Safety & Standards on his behalf, can already exercise these powers in relation to the enforcement of sector-specific regulations, such as those for electrical equipment and lifts. The Government want to ensure that the Secretary of State can lead across the wide range of consumer products, not just those that fall under sector-specific regulations. The order therefore allows the Secretary of State to investigate any type of product covered solely by the General Product Safety Regulations 2005, should the need arise. The office will thus have the authority to provide the leadership and action needed to deal with national incidents.

The second purpose of the order is to make sure that the Secretary of State, local authority trading standards in Great Britain and district councils in Northern Ireland can investigate safety issues concerning gas appliances and personal protective equipment. New regulations were introduced last year by the negative procedure and this order provides for the amendment of the Consumer Rights Act by affirmative procedure. It now enables enforcement authorities to use the investigatory powers in Schedule 5 in relation to these products covered by the 2018 regulations.

Finally, the intention underpinning the enforcement of the Measuring Instruments Regulations 2016 has always been that the enforcement authorities should have access to the investigatory powers in Schedule 5. This order corrects that typographical error in the relevant provision in both the regulations and Schedule 5.

In conclusion, the order improves the ability of the Secretary of State to investigate claims about unsafe consumer products, protecting consumers and preventing injury and loss of life. It ensures that the Office for Product Safety & Standards can fulfil its regulatory role in the area of product safety by leading and co-ordinating responses to national product safety incidents across the wide range of consumer products within its remit. It enables the Secretary of State, local trading standards and district councils to investigate the safety of gas appliances and personal protective equipment regulated by the 2018 regulations. It contributes to the Government’s aim of promoting and protecting law-abiding businesses by preventing unfair competition through the placing of unsafe products on to the United Kingdom market. I commend the order to the House and beg to move.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I support this measure, which will improve the enforcement framework for unsafe consumer products—always a concern of mine because of my background in retail and at the business department. I want to raise two issues. The first is the adequacy of resourcing for trading standards in their important work on product safety. I welcome the new Office for Product Safety & Standards in Birmingham and hope that, through the Minister’s good offices, some of us might be able to visit it on some future occasion. Local authorities are squeezed. I fear that trading standards, which do such an excellent job across the country, do not have the funding they need to tackle product safety and product counterfeiting, which is often a cause of safety incidents in some local authority areas.

The second issue is Whirlpool. I would like an update on the recall of Whirlpool tumble dryers. I am not entirely clear on what this SI adds in the case of electrical white goods, which, as the Minister said, are already regulated, but Whirlpool is mentioned on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum and the 10 days of BEIS consultation on the recall are nearly up. What are the Government’s plans in respect of this matter and, even more importantly, of future enforcement of product safety more broadly? What are the criteria for recalls and speed of response, which in the case of Whirlpool has sadly been very slow—I think nearly four years, although I must commend current Ministers for moving ahead on that. Can the Minister clarify the numbers involved? I understand from Which? that the recall will involve 300,000 to 500,000 dryers, which is a fall of about 500,000 in the department’s estimate of the number of unmodified dryers since last year. Yet only some 50,000 have been modified since then, so I do not see how the numbers add up. Can the Minister also kindly advise—in writing if need be, because I appreciate that these are detailed questions—on the number of modified dryers that have caught fire, and on why the Government are comfortable, as stated in Parliament on 17 June, that they are low risk. I hope for all our sakes that this judgment is correct. We should give the owners of modified dryers further comfort if that is possible.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is probably right that Whirlpool has absorbed something in the order of 14 different companies, so that what an individual will think of as an X machine is in fact a Whirlpool one. If it is possible to publish that list, I will certainly make it public; I do not think that there is any secret about it. The important thing is that we try to identify as many of those who still have unmodified machines so that they can be identified. My understanding is that Whirlpool—I do not speak for it—has already achieved considerable success in previous recalls in identifying quite a high percentage of potential owners of machines, certainly compared with other recalls that have happened. However, it will probably be better if I write in greater detail to my noble friend, copying it to the noble Baroness, on the names of the individual companies to deal with that point at greater length.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

A letter from my noble friend would be extremely helpful. Regarding food safety, which I also know a lot about from my background, there was a practice whereby unsafe products would be listed in a newspaper or on a website almost as a routine matter. Even if for some reason it is not possible to do that on this occasion, that is one of the criteria that should be looked at for the future so that when there is publicity about a product safety problem, consumers can check easily whether there is an issue with their machine.

[Lord Henley]

Again, my noble friend is absolutely correct. I can remember seeing campaigns of exactly that sort. It is important for the consumer, or rather the original purchaser of a machine, to be able to identify what it is, which is why on occasion there have been such advertisements, as my noble friend points out. As I said, I would prefer to write in further detail to her on that issue.

I will now deal with the whole question of resourcing, not only of the new OPSS but of local authorities. As we have made clear, some £12 million has been made available to the OPSS, and we believe that that figure is an adequate sum. My noble friend asked whether she could visit its office, and I am sure that such a visit can be arranged through my department. If she would like to get in touch, we can send her up to Birmingham as soon as the Whips allow such visits to take place, and if other noble Lords wish to take part, that is obviously a matter for them. That money is for the OPSS; local authorities are funded through the general local authority grant, and there is no ring-fenced budget. However, we believe that, whatever difficulties local authorities might have, by giving the OPSS equivalency of investigatory powers, it can certainly support trading standards at a local level. The support of the OPSS, which employs some 300 staff, can be of extraordinary use to local authorities, providing training, for example.

I turn next to the question of EU exit, raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. Again, I make it clear that—although this issue is possibly beyond my pay grade—delivering the negotiated deal remains the priority and we continue to make appropriate arrangements in the event of no deal. We have created a new, UK-specific market surveillance database that will allow market surveillance authorities to record product safety and compliance incidents. That database will give the United Kingdom a rapid alert mechanism for dangerous products which will allow for product recall to protect consumers.

I turn now to the impact on small business. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, was worried about the lack of an impact assessment. There is no impact assessment because the order gives powers to public bodies and does not place a burden on business itself. A full impact assessment was carried out in 2013, which I can make available to her. It concluded that there was a zero cost to business and a net benefit to business of £5.3 million by consolidating and simplifying the process. There is no reason to assume that those underlying assumptions have changed.

Whirlpool Tumble Dryers: Product Recall

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Monday 17th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, all I can say is that I await my noble friend’s question in due course. As for the number of fires caused, I quoted the figure, saying that some 724 last year were caused by tumble dryers but that that was a decline. One must remember that any white goods are going to have a risk, and the important thing is that manufacturers ensure that they are as risk-free as possible. That is why on this occasion, as I said, we want to hold Whirlpool to account and ensure that it gets to as many machines as possible to make sure that they are dealt with. However, it is right and proper that we not only deal with tumble dryers where there is a problem but ensure the safety of all other white goods.

On the question of our exit from the EU, I assure the noble Lord that the department will make sure that safety remains an absolute priority in dealing with these matters. Ensuring that we have a robust system of market surveillance to make sure that we can protect our border from unsafe products will be a priority for the department.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

I was very glad to hear of the recall, albeit it is rather late in the process. It is, I think, three and a half years since these fires were first identified, and I hope we will learn from the process.

I have two questions for my noble friend. As the department knows, because they were very helpful, I have two Whirlpool tumble dryers. In fact, they are Hotpoint; as noble Lords will know, Hotpoint was taken over by Whirlpool, a US company. The second was modified only after my meeting with the Minister. In the Statement my noble friend suggested that the risk from modified tumble dryers was low. There have been examples of fires in modified dryers, though, so how can the Government be sure that they are safe? Modifying the dryers is quite a long process, as I observed it for two hours on my lawn.

My second question, which I think is the more important one, is: is the system for the recall of white goods good enough, given the danger to the British consumer if there are fires? What changes have the Government made, or are they planning, to ensure that we can sleep safely in our beds?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s first point, I can confirm, as I said in the Statement, that the risk from modified tumble dryers is low. I cannot quantify it, but I can repeat that assurance. It is certainly an improvement on what was there before. As I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, one can never remove all risks with white goods; obviously, any electrical product inherently has some danger. However, we must do what we can—or rather, manufacturers must do what they can—to ensure that all products are as safe as possible. It is then the Government’s job to hold those manufacturers to account.

My noble friend also asked whether the system was good enough. We will always keep the system under review. We introduced the Office for Product Safety and Standards a little over a year ago and we will monitor how it is going. If one looks at the figures for domestic fires, including those caused by electrical products, and sees their steady decline, one can say that we are heading in the right direction. This has been happening for some time.

Corporate Governance

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I agree with the noble Lord on the first part of his question, which is that this is a matter for companies, and it is right that they should get it right. On levels of trust, what I have been trying to make clear is that we have seen a growth in public trust in business. It is still too low, but the most recent 2019 Edelman global trust barometer shows a small increase, which is to be welcomed and something we would encourage. As the noble Lord says, it is too early for me to comment on the CMA.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I am glad to hear my noble friend’s comments about trust, but could more be done to enforce the existing rules of corporate law? There is a problem in that the bad eggs give business a very bad name, so good enforcement early on of the right kind, led strongly by the FRC, can be extremely helpful. Does my noble friend agree?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do agree with my noble friend. I think that she will agree that we have done a great deal on corporate governance ever since we published the Green Paper in 2016, and there is the work done by the FRC and others right up to publishing and bringing into operation the new code in January of this year.

Energy Policy

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not think that I can take the noble Lord much further in his accusations of lack of vision. I think that he would be one of the first to say that it would show a lack of straightforward common sense and financial honesty to go ahead with a scheme that was going to cost quite so much, and quite so much to the Welsh consumer and Welsh businesses in terms of their costs for electricity.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as the Energy Minister at the time when the Hendry report was under way. The truth is that this is the most attractive of projects. However, sadly, it is dreadful value for money—so I agree reluctantly with the Government’s conclusion. What progress are the Government making with nuclear renewal, not only at Hinkley Point C—which has been mentioned and which is creating jobs and apprenticeships and helping us to fill the decline in the nuclear baseload—but with the new nuclear fleet, notably in Wales and Cumbria?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the announcement that my right honourable friend made about Wylfa the other day and of the work that is being done in Anglesey on the prospect of having a nuclear power station there. She will also be aware that work has started at Hinkley. We therefore hope in due course—in about 2025, I think—to see further nuclear energy coming on as baseload to assist with our energy security. I also hope that in due course we will see more nuclear energy at Moorside in Cumbria, which my noble friend is well aware of. As a Cumbrian, I too am aware of it. As I said earlier, I hope that we will hear more about the prospects of other work in due course.

Brexit: Creative Sector

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Wednesday 20th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has one of the best intellectual property regimes globally. The creative industries’ concerns focus on copyright, where reciprocal protections are underpinned by international law, and unregistered designs, which the UK will continue protecting. Some EU-derived copyright provisions and the reciprocal EU-UK protection of unregistered designs will be a matter for our future relationship.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, copyright is of fundamental importance to the creative sectors. They range from music to TV to art to the written word and, indeed, increasingly to traditional businesses, as the digital revolution gathers pace. It has been established, for example, by UK Music that around 17% of music is accessed illegally. At present, the EU provides important protections for copyright. As the UK leaves the EU, could the Minister reassure the House that this protection will be maintained and, if possible, enhanced, for example by online services taking a greater degree of responsibility for clamping down on copyright infringement?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to highlight the importance of this sector, and I want to emphasise just how big the creative industries are as an exporting sector and in terms of what they produce in this country. I stress, as I did at the beginning, that much of our reciprocal copyright protection is underpinned by international law, but obviously there are parts that need protection that involve EU-UK law. That will obviously be a matter for our future relationship, and that is a matter for the ongoing negotiations taking place at the moment.

Domestic Gas and Electricity (Tariff Cap) Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 11th June 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

What it will do, as I thought I had made clear, is make it easier to open the door to innovative third-party switching devices, such as the devices I referred to, I think, during the debate on the Smart Meters Bill. These will allow the consumer to find himself automatically shifted from one supplier to another if he says, “I always want the cheapest tariff”, or, “I always want the greenest tariff”. Such things are being developed and midata will help towards that.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I now understand why the letter I received is so difficult to understand. It reflects the provisions that the Minister has explained that Ofcom has imposed about having to show how you could pay less even if you cannot in fact pay less, which is the situation in my letter. That leads me to make a small request. It would be great if the Minister were able, between now and Report, to look at how communication is actually decided in the Ofcom area. Is there proper communication with consumers who might be recipients of these letters? We tend to be policy-driven rather than customer-driven, and I heartily endorse what the Minister said about keeping it simple. Talking to consumers about what they are going to be sent might be very helpful.

[Lord Henley]

I am more than happy to consider that and to write to my noble friend so that we can perhaps consider this again on Report. As I was saying in winding up, we all have the same desire: we want to make sure that the consumer has the right information to make the appropriate decisions that they wish to make. With that in mind, we hope that Ofgem—not Ofcom—will continue to develop its work in that field.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I hope that I can deal with this group of amendments in the two, three or four-dimensional manner that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has asked me to. Given that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe moved the first amendment, I should say that, like her, generally speaking the Government are not convinced about price caps. We have our doubts and we made it clear at Second Reading that we do not like to go down this route and we said that it had to be temporary, albeit with an ability to extend the cap for a short while, year by year, but no more than that.

The aim of my noble friend’s amendment is to end it in 2020. The noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, also has some sympathy with that, as she returns her party to classic, 19th-century liberalism—a wonderful development. We believe that it should be a temporary measure and that 2020 is the right time to end it, with the ability to extend it to a final, absolute sunset in 2023. I do not think that removing the possibility of extending would provide consumers with protection if the conditions for effective competition were not in place at the same time. As I said, we prefer to do it that way. I rather dread the thought of further primary legislation each year if we wanted to extend it or do it for another year. We have already had that with other Bills.

My noble friend asked if I could report a little on the prepayment meter cap and the effect it has had. The evidence seems to be that, since the cap, prices have come down to below it. There has been some bunching of prices, but there is competition below the cap in the prepayment market. That shows that these things can occasionally work. However, as I said to my noble friend, philosophically we do not like the idea of caps. I rather agree with her.

I turn to the other amendments in the group. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, spoke to Amendment 32, the purpose of which appears to be to create a firm link between the price cap’s removal and the completion of the rollout of smart meters. It seems to suggest that the cap can be extended in circumstances where the smart meters programme has been completed, but the conditions for effective competition are not in place. The rollout of smart meters is but one of many possible indicators that define a competitive market. There will be other indicators of the conditions for effective competition. Ofgem’s consultation points towards other factors that might indicate that the conditions for effective competition are in place, including ways of improving customer engagement and increasing switching. I am sure that the amendment aims to be helpful, but I believe it is simpler and safer to leave it to Ofgem to assess the conditions for effective competition, rather than put provisions on the face of the Bill that would link statements about the future of the price cap to particular programmes.

The noble Lord also spoke to Amendments 33 and 35. The Government would not wish to see an inversion of this Bill’s policy intention by removing the price cap’s sunset clause. I repeat that we have no intention of delivering an indefinite price cap. As I have made clear on a number of occasions, this is a targeted and temporary intervention until the conditions for effective competition are in place. I think that is why the Bill achieved broad, cross-party consensus in another place and was endorsed by the BEIS Select Committee. Amendment 35 would also increase the risk of transforming this temporary measure into a permanent feature of the retail energy market. Again, we do not believe that that would be appropriate.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 37, which is a probing amendment seeking to understand the purpose of Clause 9. Clause 9 empowers Ofgem to modify the standard supply licence conditions following the removal or cessation of the tariff cap as specified under Clause 8. The clause allows Ofgem to modify the standard supply licence conditions as it considers necessary or expedient, but with the requirement that Ofgem publishes the modifications to alert all stakeholders as to the impact of the modifications. The publication of the Secretary of State’s decision will alert stakeholders to the cap coming to an end. This provision would enable the licence conditions to be tidied up to reflect the cap being lifted. Otherwise, they would remain in the licence but would be redundant.

We have been clear that the price cap is a necessary intervention in the market, but one that should only remain until the conditions for effective competition are in place. The decision on extending or removing the cap will be made in the light of the report and recommendation from the expert regulator. The Government are not prepared to enable this price cap to be a permanent feature as it could risk distorting the market, but noble Lords will wish to note that Ofgem has enduring powers to protect consumers and specific duties regarding vulnerable consumers. Indeed, Ofgem has indicated that it may be necessary to have in place price protection for a narrower set of consumers once the price cap under this Bill has ceased to be in place.

I hope I have provided the appropriate assurances. Though the amendments are coming from rather different directions, I hope first of all that my noble friend will withdraw her amendment with the assurance I have given and, secondly, that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will not feel it necessary to move his amendments.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

I thank my noble friend for his philosophical reassurance. Certainly, I would not want to add a link to smart meters because, as he said, it is only one factor that we will need to take into account. The extension power in Clause 8 gives the Executive too much power and I ask the Minister to give the matter further thought before Report, but I withdraw my amendment with great pleasure.

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[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Noble Lords will know that I am not in favour of extending the cap, in whatever way. However, I am interested to hear about the relative tariff differential and would like to understand further how that works. I think the proposal here is that it should be imposed as well as a cap—it seems to me that that gives you a double regulation and I am not convinced that that is necessary. It would, however, be good to understand—the Minister may well be able to comment on this—what the advantages are of a relative cap in relation to the end I think we all seek, which is a more competitive market.

The noble Baroness mentioned retailers. As I was a retailer, I know that 19% to 20% of customers changing their supplier annually is quite a high figure, but the key point is that the underlying dynamics in the market are encouraging players to reduce prices and to innovate. That is what we want to see in energy. It would be good to hear from the Minister how he sees that happening in a situation where we have a cap, whatever its nature.

[Lord Henley]

I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, to our discussions. Amendments 36 and 36A are broadly similar in asking the Secretary of State to develop an ongoing relative tariff differential. However, Amendment 36 says:

“The relative tariff differential shall take effect on the termination of the tariff cap conditions”,


while Amendment 36A, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, to which a Liberal, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has joined his name—it must have good free-market credentials—says:

“The relative tariff differential is to take effect on the commencement of the tariff cap conditions and to be ongoing after the tariff cap conditions cease”.


They are broadly similar but would come into effect at different times. They would cap the most expensive advertised variable and default rate tariffs as a proportion of the cheapest, and Ofgem would set the differential.

There may be a need for further protections once the cap has ended, particularly for vulnerable consumers. Ofgem has indicated as much and has enduring powers to operate protections but I do not think it would be sensible to seek to determine the precise form that any protection takes, if it is needed at all. The energy market is likely to change significantly between now and then. Smart meters are just one part of that. The new clause inserted by these amendments would seem to introduce an indefinite relative price cap. It is not the intention of the Bill or the Government to put in place such a permanent cap.

We have come back again to tease and squeeze, which the noble Lord mentioned earlier. I briefly responded to that. I appreciate that the aim is to get rid of the practice of tease and squeeze. However, there is the risk that under the amendments suppliers would raise their least expensive standard variable and default tariffs, rather than decrease their most expensive. That is the Government’s fundamental concern about any kind of relative price cap. The Government and others, including the BEIS Select Committee, believe that a relative price cap would not work. I do not see how the outcome of a relative price cap would be any different, whether it was in place alongside an absolute cap or after the absolute price cap had been removed. A relative cap as a permanent feature of the market risks undoing the work of the temporary absolute cap.

The best way of ending the practice of tease and squeeze will be the detailed work, as I said, that Ofgem is undertaking to test better ways to secure customer engagement; the work to make switching quicker and more reliable; and the many other programmes to make the market work better. Recent changes mean suppliers can now make their default tariff a fixed-rate rather than a variable-rate deal, and many have done so. The Government believe that better engagement and better switching that leads to more effective competition is a proportionate and sustainable solution, rather than concurrent and permanent relative price caps. I hope that my explanations will satisfy noble Lords and my noble friend. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Product Safety: Freezers and Refrigerators

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, all fires are potentially disastrous and it is right that the noble Baroness should highlight that point. The number of fires that have been caused by fridge freezers is very small indeed—something like 2% of all domestic fires—and the number is declining. We are aware of the concerns, which she rightly highlights, about products with plastic rather than metal backing. That is why we are looking at strengthening standards in that area. As I made clear, I think that our standards are already very high, and all the fridges meet those standards. The Which? report, rightly highlighted by the noble Baroness and her noble friend, said that we should possibly look at strengthening those standards. That is what we are doing.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, in view of what has been said, I am very glad that the Government have set up a new Office for Product Safety and Standards, and am grateful for my invitation to visit it. On from fridges, what is being done with the many hundreds of thousands of outstanding Whirlpool tumble driers, which also pose a fire safety risk? I believe that the Minister must be on the consumer’s side in these matters.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think I have used the expression, “The consumer is always right” on other occasions. We are on the consumer’s side. My noble friend will be aware that my honourable friend Andrew Griffiths has already had discussions with Whirlpool and made his concerns clear. This question is related not just to fridge freezers but, as my noble friend is well aware from her experience as a Minister in this department, and I am grateful for the work she did, to other items as well. We want to look at all the standards and make sure that we continue to have the right standards and that they are as stringent as possible.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

Obviously the noble Lord is right that assets belonging to Euratom are in there. I do not think I am giving away any secrets if I say that on my visit I saw physical things that were Euratom assets; there will also be software and other things. I am sure that deals will be done as part of the negotiations, and some of those will be transferred over. I do not think I can go any further at the Dispatch Box and I would not want to, but if there is anything more that I can say in a letter then I shall. I will make sure that my letter goes to all noble Lords by whatever means in this inclement weather—we will get it to the noble Lord—and place copies in the Library, which is where people like to find them.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Email is also very useful these days.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have discovered email. I can use all possible methods.

I have given the assurance that I will ensure that noble Lords are kept informed. As I think I have made clear, I do not think the amendments are necessary or, for that matter, particularly helpful, and I hope the noble Lord will accept that we will do our bit to keep all noble Lords appropriately informed of these matters and will make the precise Written Statements that are necessary at the appropriate moment. With that, I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Small Business Commissioner (Scope and Scheme) Regulations 2017

Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Henley

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord throws a bit of a dampener on the proceedings, which were going quite well before that stage. I will comment on what other noble Lords had to say before I deal with some of his complaints. I am not sure that I will deal with all of them; I will probably write to him in greater detail afterwards. Since he accepted that these regulations will go through, that the Small Business Commissioner has a role and that we have to get him on the move, the sooner we can do that, the better. I will go back to those noble Lords who at least welcomed the regulations—I think he did, but he then took them to pieces and, as I said, threw something of a dampener on the proceedings.

I will start off with the noble Lord’s friend, the noble Lord, Lord Jones, who, as I said, was much politer and kinder about the regulations. I am grateful for that, and I give him an assurance that we have now appointed Mr Paul Uppal—the announcement was made a few days ago—who is a former Member of another place. The post was advertised in the usual way and will be salaried. I am afraid that if my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe was looking to get that job, she will have to wait a little while before it is vacant again. As I said, it was advertised in the usual way. I cannot specify exactly why he was chosen as opposed to any others, as that would be invidious and not right, but he was selected after due process and we are grateful to him.

My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe also regrets the length of this regulation; it is always difficult to get these matters right. On many other occasions I have moved that various orders be agreed and people have complained that there is not the detail in them. Unfortunately, the point behind regulations of this sort is that one can get into the details that one cannot get in the parent legislation. My noble friend is aware of the parent legislation; she took it through this House, and the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, dealt with it from the Opposition Benches. They know full well that it is not right and proper to get that sort of detail into the original primary legislation, and the point behind these regulations is to get the detail in. I hope that we normally get it about right, but my noble friend Lord Cope teased me over the fact that the Explanatory Memorandum—which I stress is not, I think, part of the regulations, although I can never quite remember what its status is—states that the regulations will have no effect on business. We would obviously all like to make sure that it has an effect on business—and a beneficial effect.

I turn to the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Golding. I am grateful for her welcome, but one cannot think of passing the Enterprise Act and creating a commissioner as a magic wand that will solve all problems. This is also the general remark I would make to the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, in relation to his various comments, one or two of which I will deal with in greater detail. I can think of very few occasions when legislation can solve problems overnight. There was one Bill with which I had some involvement, the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill, which did quite a lot of what it was targeted to do in the area of metal theft.

In the main, legislation can only do so much. We hope that the Enterprise Act and these regulations will make a big difference. As with so many of these things, however, it is a matter of changing people’s behaviour and the culture of the bigger businesses so that they realise what damage they are doing to others. Legislation can do a certain amount and we have provided the appropriate resources for the commissioner; at least, I think they are appropriate. The figures I have—I think these are the figures that the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, asked to be confirmed—are that the set-up costs are in the order of £1 million and the annual running costs will be roughly £1.4 million, most of that going on staff costs. These must be guesses but it is estimated that there may be 390,000 enquiries and 500 complaints. We think that is adequate for the commissioner at the moment but there is scope for the Secretary of State to increase the resources available to the commissioner if appropriate. He will obviously take advice from the commissioner about what he does and try to make sure he gets it right.

I make one more remark on the commissioner and the work he has already done. My noble friend Lord Cope commented on the website, suggesting that it was not clear enough and should do more, including cross-referencing with other bodies. I am sure that the commissioner will be grateful for my noble friend’s suggestion and that it will be looked at in due course. It is always difficult to get your website exactly right; some are better than others. One can take advice, and I am sure that the advice of my noble friends will be listened to by the commissioner in due course.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

Before my noble friend sits down, I reiterate that I very much support the regulations. I also asked, I think, what arrangements there were for review, because this is a new commissioner. I expect that the department has some standard review provision for looking at how it works, and I am interested in that.

[Lord Henley]

I can give my noble friend an assurance that I was not about to sit down—unless others are desperate to get on to the other instruments—because I still had a certain amount to deal with from the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, who would probably be upset if I left him at this early stage. I can, however, assure my noble friend that we will keep this under review. As I made clear, we are thinking of about £1.4 million as the budget being given to the commissioner for the annual running costs. My right honourable friend can keep that, and the size of it, under review. It is not just about money but about how they are getting on. The department will continue to keep these matters under review.

The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, started off his throwing-a-dampener-on-it speech by questioning why we would use the BACS survey and saying that we should have used another survey that gave a higher figure. I will not go into details about which survey will be the best and which had the largest number of people involved in it to get the right figure. I do not know whether there is necessarily a right figure. All we can agree on is that £14.2 billion is a very high figure. The figures that the noble Lord quoted from other surveys are equally high and worrying. The important point is that something ought to be done to assist small businesses to ensure they do this properly. It is clear that the Government are taking this issue seriously from the fact that we sought parliamentary approval for the Enterprise Act and that, under that Act, we are now doing various things, of which the Small Business Commissioner and his staff are one small part. I do not think the noble Lord can accuse the Government of not taking this seriously. The important point is: we have put some resources in; we have appointed a good person to be that commissioner; and he will continue to pursue the appropriate measures available to him.

The noble Lord made the usual complaints people do about the drafting. He said it was too detailed and then that there was not enough—I was rather lost on that. The drafting went through the usual process. We consulted on it as we should. Generally, other than from the noble Lord, we have had a fairly favourable response to the drafting. I am sorry if he finds it overly legalistic. That is just the way things are drafted.

The noble Lord then asked me a rather extraordinary question: what are the unintended consequences of these regulations? If I knew what any unintended consequences were and that they would be detrimental to one or other person, or to the small business sector as a whole, I would not be moving them. I am afraid the noble Lord will have to accept that I do not have the wisdom of prophecy that he seems to think Ministers should have. I will try to improve. If I knew what the unintended consequences were, I would do something about them. We feel that the regulations will have a good effect and be one small step in helping small businesses. They will try to improve their lot and cut down the very large figure of £14.2 billion, or whatever larger figure the noble Lord would like to have.

Turning to another matter that I suppose is faintly relevant to what we are dealing with, the noble Lord asked about the evidence of the impact of the Prompt Payment Code. I can tell him that we actively monitor and enforce it. It has been successful in assisting business to recover debt, but also in highlighting best practice. That again is important as part of the necessity for the change of culture.

I appreciate that the noble Lord had other questions and that he would like further details on why we wanted BACS—