Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness O'Loan and Lord Shinkwin

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak on Amendment 405. It is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and to echo some of the points she touched on. I clarify that of course the amendment is in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton. I do so because, as a disabled person who was on the National Disability Council in the late 1990s developing codes of practice and advising the then Government on the importance of language—a point that the noble Baroness has just mentioned—I fail to see how changing the Bill’s wording from

“must first ensure the provision of adjustments for language and literacy barriers”,

which was the language of the amendment adopted by the other place, to “take all reasonable steps” can do anything other than weaken this Bill.

The noble and learned Lord would have us believe that this is just a drafting change; indeed, he said in his opening remarks that it makes it “clearer”. I contend that this is no drafting change because, yes, it changes the sense of meaning. The amendment would take us backwards because it would fundamentally weaken one of the Bill’s safeguards, such as they are, which was inserted as a result of Jack Abbott’s Committee amendment in the other place, and which the Bill’s sponsor in the other place described as “very sensible”—she was happy to support it.

I have a few questions for the noble and learned Lord that I would be grateful if he could answer in his closing remarks. Is this Committee being asked to believe that today the Bill’s sponsor in the other place is happy for the noble and learned Lord, in effect, to overrule her? Can he confirm in his closing remarks that she and Mr Abbott have been consulted, or is it that, together, the noble and learned Lord and Ms Leadbeater have decided to water down one of the few safeguards in the Bill because, well, it is only the House of Lords so no one is going to notice? The whole point of the Bill is to make it as easy as possible for people to have assisted dying, so let us minimise the constraints.

I began my career at the Royal National Institute for Deaf People during the first Blair Government. It was an exciting time. To the credit of Tony Blair and the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, who was Health Secretary, digital hearing aids were introduced on the NHS. The RNID, when I worked there, was listened to, and it should be now. So could the noble and learned Lord explain why this amendment implicitly ignores the finding made this year by the RNID and SignHealth in their report that some patients did not understand their diagnosis or treatment?

As a disabled person, I thank our Labour colleagues most sincerely. I know that I owe a debt to the Labour Party’s long-standing and noble—in the true sense of the word—commitment to advancing disability rights. However, this amendment underlines an inescapable but painful truth. The Bill makes a mockery of that fine, noble and honourable tradition. It shreds a tradition that deserves to be preserved, not sacrificed in such a profoundly cynical and misleading way as to make out, as the amendment does, that this is somehow only a drafting change.

There is a reason why not one organisation of or for disabled people supports the Bill; they know that disabled people need the Bill like a hole in the head. I marvel that the noble and learned Lord does not seem to realise that the Bill is dangerous enough already without the removal of provisions that would at least acknowledge the obligation to first ensure that communication adjustments were made; for example, for people with learning disabilities or users of British Sign Language.

The last thing that we as a House should be doing is endorsing an attempt to make the Bill an even poorer piece of proposed legislation than it already is. Noble Lords could be forgiven for thinking that that was not possible, but, as the noble and learned Lord’s Amendment 405 clearly states, he is perfectly capable of making his poorly drafted Bill even worse.

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

My Lords, could the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, clarify for me the impact of Amendment 290 and whether it deals with matters of coercive control and economic abuse effectively for the purposes of the legislation? I ask this because Amendment 290 would remove

“including coercive control and financial abuse”

from the Bill. The same principle applies to Amendment 366, while Amendment 931 would remove the requirement for members of a panel to receive training on coercive control and financial abuse.

Even taking into account the Domestic Abuse Act, which I will come back to in a moment, there is a difference between coercion and pressure and coercive control and abuse. It is for that reason that I support the comments previously made about, for example, Kim Leadbeater in the Commons being pleased to support mandated training on domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse, and the Health Minister in the Commons Committee noting that the amendment would require training regulations to include

“mandatory training relating to domestic abuse, including coercive control and financial abuse”,—[Official Report, Commons, 18/3/25; col. 1212.]

which clearly would ramp up the requirement.

However, the definition of domestic abuse in Section 1 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 refers to behaviour in the context of personal relationships—persons who are connected—and there is a list of the persons who are connected. Section 1(4) of the Act does not cover those who are not personally connected but who may be capable of having enormous influence upon people on behalf of those who are. I think, for example, of financial advisers, lawyers and even doctors, people like that, who may be able to put pressure on people, and we have seen situations in which such pressure has been brought to bear. Does the noble and learned Lord consider that the situations in which pressure may be brought to bear by someone not personally connected should be otherwise provided for?

This group also contains amendments to Clauses 10 and 13, the provisions in relation to the situation in which a doctor is unable or unwilling to act as the independent doctor. There are provisions in Amendments 332, 418 and 419 for a further referral if a doctor is unable or unwilling to continue. His reasons for unwillingness could include ethical concerns or suspicions of undue influence on the patient. Despite the fact that there is a provision that he can seek specialist advice on this issue, there may be a situation in which the doctor will simply withdraw from the process. The single additional referral was approved in the other place to protect the patient, but these amendments would enable doctor shopping to occur. We will come back to that in group 44. Moreover, if a doctor withdraws from completing the process because of suspicions of possible or undue influence, the reason must surely be recorded.

Amendment 405 would remove from the Bill the requirement to have regard to “language and literacy barriers”, replacing it with the new more general requirement to

“take all reasonable steps to ensure … effective communication”.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, explained during the previous debate the extent to which people with a disability have complex needs, which must be satisfied to enable understanding. The inclusion of “all reasonable steps” et cetera introduces a far less specific test, and consideration must be given to setting standards for the level of communication which is required. I have to ask the noble and learned Lord: does this amendment inadvertently disadvantage those with specific learning difficulties and similar vulnerable groups?

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Baroness O'Loan and Lord Shinkwin

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Loan]

The Reverend Norman Hamilton has worked on the interface in north Belfast for 20 years, and hundreds of clergy and ordinary people—doctors, nurses and lawyers—all signed, from all sides of the community. They wanted one thing: to be respected as people and to allowed to make their own law on this amendment. That shows how concerned people are about this matter.

My amendment would not prevent legal change on either abortion or same-sex marriage. It would simply have the effect of restoring some constitutional integrity to Northern Ireland. It requires that there should be a consultation with the people of Northern Ireland, as there would be with any legal change on either issue in Northern Ireland, and most importantly that the views of the currently elected Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly be recorded for or against any regulations and that the regulations should not be laid before Parliament if they do not receive majority support from those Assembly Members. One thing I have not done is to introduce anything resembling a petition of concern, about which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, spoke earlier. The legislation could pass by a simple majority.

One thing I noticed this afternoon was that the unborn child was largely absent from the debate. When mentioned, there was in some quarters a rolling of eyes and expressions of contempt. Yet it has to be said that abortion is about killing babies—real babies. Without Amendment 23, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill will go down in British constitutional history as one of its blackest moments of all times, when constitutional due process was completely swept aside because of the conviction of parliamentarians, none of whom represents Northern Ireland, that the end justifies the means. That is never a good place to be. We have heard it said that it does not really matter at all if Northern Ireland’s MPs voted against this, because it is a matter of human rights and if you want to be in the UK you have to accept abortion as a human right. There is no human right to abortion, and I think that is slightly contemptuous of Northern Ireland’s MPs.

The Member for Walthamstow, who introduced new Clause 10 in the Commons, said this morning that this is an attempt by the DUP to hold us all to ransom. At this late hour, I perhaps need to assure noble Lords that I am not a member of the DUP. I am a Cross-Bencher and, as far as I can remember, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, is not a member of the DUP either. This is something that a cross-party group of 16,000 people are asking us not to do. This is the truest cross-community co-operation from all sectors of our community, from all sides, all places in our beautiful country. We have agreement that we do not want abortion railroaded through in the Bill. I ask noble Lords to at least grant Northern Ireland MLAs the courtesy, the respect and dignity of their roles as elected members and allow them to present their views on this matter. I ask noble Lords to give the people of Northern Ireland the same respect and provide for consultation. I beg to move.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 23 and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for persevering despite her sore throat and inspiring those of us who support the amendment. I support it because I believe it underlines our respect for devolution and for the people of Northern Ireland, a clear majority of whom, polling shows, as we have already heard, do not want law changes imposed on them by us here in London.

I also support it for another reason. I do not take a position on abortion per se; I do, however, take a position on disability equality. What is proposed in the Bill drives a coach and horses through disability equality. I wonder whether my noble friend the Minister—indeed, whether anyone in the Government or in No. 10—has considered the message that changing the law to allow abortion on grounds of disability in Northern Ireland sends to the people of Northern Ireland, to the devoted parents and families of disabled children and, most importantly, to the disabled citizens of Northern Ireland. Today, Northern Ireland is the safest place in the United Kingdom to be diagnosed with a disability. If the Bill is passed, that will change overnight on 21 October.

I invite noble Lords to consider the Bill from the perspective of someone with Down’s syndrome. In England and Wales, the latest available figures show that 90% of human beings diagnosed with Down’s syndrome are aborted. Today, in Northern Ireland, disability-selective abortion for Down’s syndrome is not allowed. Instead, the culture is one of welcome and support for this disability. The latest figures from the Department of Health in Northern Ireland showed that while 52 children with Down’s syndrome were born in 2016, in the same year only one child from Northern Ireland with Down’s syndrome was aborted in England and Wales.

I ask my noble friend the Minister: is that not a cause for celebration? Is it not to Northern Ireland’s immense credit that disability equality is actually respected there? He may be aware that next year will mark the 25th anniversary of the most important social justice milestone of the 20th century for disabled people: the Disability Discrimination Act. A Conservative Government introduced it. How does he reconcile the Act’s acknowledgement of the right of disabled human beings to be equal, to contribute to society and to be respected with the message of the Bill, which is that if you are born with a disability, as I was, you are better off dead? For that is its message to disabled human beings, their families and the people of Northern Ireland.

That is why it is so sad that the party which swore to respect Northern Ireland is driving roughshod over the clearly expressed views of the majority of its people to impose lethal discrimination on grounds of disability and to treat human beings diagnosed with disability before birth as less equal. How terribly progressive, my Lords.

I wonder who has the greater learning disability here: those who seem intent on denying the equal right to exist to those such as human beings with Down’s syndrome or those, especially in my party, who appear determined to unlearn the lessons of the Disability Discrimination Act.

I was born disabled; I will die disabled. That is the hand I have been dealt. Indeed, it is the hand that most of us are likely to be dealt before our days are done. Are we seriously saying, as we near the end of the second decade of the 21st century, with all the amazing advances in medicine and technology, that we are so regressive, so insecure as a species, that we cannot cope with disability?

Various commentators report that the Prime Minister wants to leave a strong legacy. I am sure I am not the only Member of your Lordships’ House who will remember her speech committing herself and her Government to ending burning injustices. I will therefore take the opportunity to urge her not to create a burning injustice by allowing the abortion of human beings diagnosed before birth with conditions such as mine to be part of that legacy. If she does, no one in my party should be surprised if disabled people and their families think that the Conservative Party hates us and believes that we would be better off dead.

In conclusion, there is a clear choice to be made, and not just by my party. The choice is for disability equality or inequality. I implore all noble Lords who believe in genuine equality to stand with disabled human beings in Northern Ireland and respect them, and devolution, by supporting this amendment.