Social Housing Standards

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, Members across the House and people across the country will have been horrified to hear about the circumstances surrounding the tragic death of Awaab Ishak. Awaab died in December 2020, just days after his second birthday, following prolonged exposure to mould in his parents’ one-bedroom flat in Rochdale. Awaab’s parents had repeatedly raised their concerns about the desperate state of their home with their landlord, the local housing association, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing. Awaab’s father first articulated his concerns in 2017, and others, including health professionals, also raised the alarm, but the landlord failed to take any kind of meaningful action. Rochdale Boroughwide Housing’s repeated failure to heed Awaab’s family’s pleas to remove the mould in their damp-ridden property was a terrible dereliction of duty.

Worse still, the apparent attempts by Rochdale Boroughwide Housing to attribute the existence of mould to the actions of Awaab’s parents was beyond insensitive and deeply unprofessional. As the Housing Ombudsman has made clear, damp and mould in rented housing is not a lifestyle issue, and we all have a duty to call out any behaviour rooted in ignorance or prejudice. The family’s lawyers have also made clear their view that the inaction of the landlord was rooted in racism and cultural prejudice.

The coroner who investigated Awaab’s death, Joanne Kearsley, has performed a vital public service in laying out all the facts behind this tragedy, and I wish to record my gratitude to her. As she said, it is scarcely believable that a child could die from mould in 21st-century Britain, or that his parents should have to fight tooth and nail, as they did in vain, to save him. I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to Awaab’s family for their tireless fight for justice over the last two years. They deserved better and their son deserved better.

As so many have rightly concluded, Awaab’s case has thrown into sharp relief the need for renewed action to ensure that every landlord in the country makes certain that their tenants are housed in decent homes and are treated with dignity and fairness. That is why we are bringing forward further reforms. Last week, the House debated Second Reading of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. The measures in that Bill were inspired by the experience of tenants that led to the terrible tragedy of the Grenfell fire. The way in which tenants’ voices were ignored and their interests neglected in the Grenfell tragedy is a constant spur to action for me in this role.

However, before I say more on the substance of those reforms, I would first like to update the House on the immediate steps that my department is taking with regard to Awaab’s death. First, as the excellent public service journalism of the Manchester Evening News shows, we are aware that Awaab’s family was not alone in raising serious issues with the condition of homes managed by the local housing association. I have already been in touch with the chair and the chief executive of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing to demand answers and that they explain to me why a tragedy such as Awaab’s case was ever allowed to happen, and to hear what steps they are undertaking immediately to improve the living conditions of tenants, for which they are responsible.

I have also been in touch with the honourable Member for Rochdale, who has been a powerful champion for his constituents, and will be speaking shortly to the honourable Member for Heywood and Middleton to discuss finding suitable accommodation for tenants in Rochdale who are still enduring unacceptable conditions. I also hope to meet Awaab’s family, and those who live in the Freehold estate, so that they know that my department is there to support them. It is right that the Regulator of Social Housing is considering whether this landlord has systematically failed to meet the standards of service it is required to provide for its tenants. It has my full support in taking whatever action it deems necessary. Finally, I know the coroner has said she will write to me, and I assure the House that I will act immediately on her recommendations.

Turning to the broader urgent issues this tragedy raises, let me be perfectly clear, since some landlords apparently still need to hear this: every single person in this country, irrespective of where they are from, what they do or how much money they earn, deserves to live in a home that is decent, safe and secure. That is the relentless focus of my department. Since the publication of our social housing White Paper, we have sought to raise the bar dramatically on the quality of social housing, while empowering tenants so that their voices are truly heard. We started by strengthening the Housing Ombudsman service so that all residents have somewhere to turn when they are not getting the answers they need from their landlords. In addition, we have changed the law so that residents can now complain directly to the ombudsman, instead of having to wait eight weeks while their case is handled by a local MP or another ‘designated person’.

One of the principal roles of the Housing Ombudsman service is to ensure that robust complaint processes are put in place, so problems are resolved as soon as they are flagged. It can order landlords to pay compensation to residents whom they have mistreated. It can also refer cases to the regulator of social housing, who will in future be able to issue unlimited fines to landlords they find to be at fault. All decisions made by the ombudsman are published in the public domain, for the whole world to see which landlords are consistently letting their tenants down.

It is clear from Awaab’s case, which did not go before the ombudsman, that more needs to be done to ensure that this vital service is better promoted and reaches those who really need it. We have already run the nationwide Make Things Right campaign to ensure that more social housing residents know how they can make complaints and easily access the Housing Ombudsman service when things are too slow. We are now planning another targeted multi-year campaign so that everyone living in the social housing sector knows their rights, knows how to sound the alarm when their landlord is failing to make the grade, and knows how to seek redress without delay.

Where some social housing providers have performed poorly in the past, they have been given ample opportunity to change their ways and to start treating their residents with the respect they deserve. The time for empty promises of improvement is over, and my department is now naming and shaming those who have been found by the regulator to have breached consumer standards, or who have been found by the ombudsman to have committed severe maladministration.

While there is no doubt that this property fell below the standard that we expect social landlords to meet, Awaab’s death makes it painfully clear why we must do everything we can to better protect tenants. Our Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will bring in a rigorous new regime that holds landlords such as these to account for the decency of their homes and the services they provide. At the moment, the system is too reliant on people fighting their own corner, and we are determined to change that. The reforms we are making through the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will help to relieve the burden on tenants with an emboldened and more powerful regulator. The Regulator of Social Housing will proactively inspect landlords and will have power to issue unlimited fines. It will be able to intervene in those cases where tenants’ lives are being put at risk because landlords are dragging their feet in actioning repairs. In the very worst cases, it will have the power to instruct that properties are brought under new management.

Landlords will be judged against tenant satisfaction measures, allowing tenants and all of us to see transparently which landlords are failing to deliver what residents expect and deserve. The right of everyone to feel safe in the place that they and their loved ones sleep at night is universal. That is why both our levelling-up and private rented sector White Papers set out how we will legislate to introduce a legally binding decent homes standard in the private rented sector for the first time. We recently consulted on that and are reviewing the responses so we can move forward. It is a key plank of our ambitious mission to halve the number of non-decent homes across all rented tenures by 2030, with the biggest improvements in the lowest-performing areas.

Through the legislation we are bringing forward, we hope no family ever has to suffer in the way that Awaab’s family has suffered. We will end the scandal of residents having to live in shoddy, substandard homes, such as some on the Freehold estate. We will restore the right of everyone in this country, whatever their race or cultural background, to live somewhere warm, decent, safe and secure—a place that they can be proud to call home. I commend this Statement to the House.”

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[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I am standing in for my noble friend Lady Pinnock, who cannot be here tonight; I have 15 years of experience in chairing a housing association, so I hope that I can contribute some constructive points.

This Statement follows a personal tragedy for the Ishak family in Rochdale. We should convey our sympathy and support for them, but the best thing we can do is reduce the possibility of this happening again. However, in my experience, social housing is not easy or straightforward, but complex. Some of the housing stock is far from up to standard, some tenants have very complex social needs and investment in this sector is switched on and off with each change of government, which also has further implications. The regulation regime and regulators also change frequently—three times during my 15 years—which means a loss of experience and knowledge of housing associations and a weaker regulator as a result.

Sadly, one of the problems is that too many tenants in social housing feel a lack of respect. They are demoralised. Anyone who has canvassed such housing knows that one of the biggest problems is getting them to vote, with the consequence that they do not get the all-round, cross-party political attention that they should.

I will make three points relevant to this case. First, maintenance is always a variable expenditure, depending on the state of finances of housing associations. It is easily switched off and the consequences follow much later. This is why, in looking at the funding of social housing, the Government need to look at not just new development and building, which is already inadequate, but at what is being invested in improving and maintaining the stock. I always had to fight in the housing associations that I chaired; investing in development is attractive but the stock is the most important thing, because the tenants are often paying for the new developments through their rents and therefore they need improvements too. That must always be respected by housing associations and the Government.

Complacency culture is a problem. There are some fantastic people working in the housing sector, to whom we should give respect, but there are a minority of housing associations and managers who are inadequate. It is too easy for the bad associations to run themselves for the convenience of staff and not tenants. In every housing association I have been involved in, whether you like it or not, you have to fight to make people think that it is simply not good enough to say, “This is good enough for them.” You need higher standards than that. Tenants need to be at the forefront and have respect.

Finally, we always need to learn from mistakes and seek to improve, but there is a danger with blame culture. It is very easily politically to say, as the Statement does,

“The time for empty promises of improvement is over, and my department is now naming and shaming those who have been found by the regulator to have breached consumer standards”.


I agree that we should expose that, but we also need to be aware of the unintended consequences. If that stops an openness and a willingness of people to admit mistakes, we will have a worse situation.

It is important to ask why the Regulator of Social Housing, after two years of this case, is only now considering whether the Rochdale association is up to scratch. Where has it been? Did the housing association in Rochdale alert the regulator at an early stage that it had a severe problem, and what has it done over the past two years to address these issues? That seems pretty important. I accept that naming and shaming has a role, but not if it leads an organisation to cover up and disguise mistakes. I give the example of the airline industry: we would never be where we are in the airline industry if we spent all our time naming and shaming rather than trying to deal with mistakes and errors and improve the safety record.

So I would like to end with three questions to the Minister. First, is there enough social housing stock in the system to allow housing associations to move people where improvements are needed on the existing stock? I would identify that as almost certainly a major problem that needs addressing. Secondly, are the Government happy with the speed of the Social Housing Regulator in intervening in this case? Did it wait until the end of this case before it intervened? Surely it should have been involved at a much earlier stage, and somebody, if they were running a housing association, should have alerted the housing regulator to the problem. If the Manchester Evening News was involved, I cannot believe that it was not in contact with the regulator—so what has it been doing over the last few months such that we are now waiting for it to make its judgement?

Thirdly, will there be much more attention paid by the Government to improving our housing stock in all sectors, rented and owner occupation, to phase out outdated housing? Surely, we need to do this as part of the insulation programme, but it is fundamental to the problem that we are talking about today that not enough attention has been placed on improving existing housing stock.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I can hear the passion from both noble Lords opposite and I think it is completely appropriate. I wish to add my voice to those who have shone a light on the failings of the housing association, although I understand that the blame culture does not always work; you always have to have with it the support to do better. I have a huge amount of respect for the regulator, and when the regulator has the new duties when the Bill goes through, I am sure that they will do the shaming, if necessary, but they will also do the supporting where necessary as well.

We cannot allow families such as Awaab’s to live in housing that is not fit for human habitation, where there are clear signs of neglect, damp, and mould, and where the family fears for the children’s health. Living in a decent home is a right, and the Secretary of State has been quite clear that the Government will not rest until every single household feels safe in their home. Addressing a number of things that have been brought up, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, quite rightly talked about the issues of the Housing Ombudsman. I do think that this is the way forward for individuals, the way forward for the regulator to get to know issues that are becoming systemic in any area, and the way forward for individual issues to be dealt with in a very timely manner. But we do need—the Secretary of State mentioned this in his Statement—to get out to the tenants to tell them how to do this, and that needs to be done sensitively, because having English as a second language can be a barrier to that, as can other things. We need to make sure that we are doing everything we can, and the Secretary of State said that we are going to go into another country-wide communications project on this—the ombudsman is part of the key to making sure that this does not happen again.

Both the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, mentioned building. We know that there is, I believe, £11.5 billion in the affordable housing building fund, and some of that is for social housing. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that there is never enough housing stock to do what we really want to do. This has not just been the case recently; it has always been a challenge, and it is a challenge that you have heard the Secretary of State say that he is up to delivering. We just have to keep going with building the necessary housing stock in this sector that is required.

Energy—once again from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock—is always something she challenges the Government on, and quite rightly. As I have mentioned before, there is a government programme of support and money available to retrofit all housing stock, and we also have to remember that the social housing sector is the most energy efficient sector in the country—but we cannot be complacent, and we need to move on this as well.

On private rented sector properties, I have not got the timeline yet, but the review has been done and we are working on getting that through, because it is important. This was not a private rented sector house or flat, but we do know that these issues are just as difficult and complex in the private sector as they are in the social sector. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that I think there is an issue about culture in the housing sector as a whole, and I am hoping that the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will start to change that culture. That was something that we brought out very early on when we announced the Bill—the fact that we wanted a cultural change within the sector. That is extremely important. I have been involved in the sector a little bit—not as much as some noble Lords, but I have—and there is a cultural issue that does need changing. The regulator knows that, and will spend time working with the sector to change that culture.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, on maintenance and stock improvement, and I will take that back to make sure that we are encouraging all social landlords to make sure that the maintenance is agreed. I know from the local authorities delivering social housing that this is something that is always important to them; certainly, when I was involved, we had planned maintenance—it was good planned maintenance, and the money was there to do that. But there is always a bit of a pull and push on this—whether it goes into maintenance or new properties—and that is an issue too.

I will look at Hansard and, if I have not answered all noble Lords’ questions, I will, as always, write. But what is important to me is that we continue to have a discussion, all of us, in this House, because this House has many of the answers and challenges us all. To any Peer—there are not many of us here—who wants to contact me following the debate to discuss this matter further, I say that my door is open, because it is an important matter and I want to discuss it. It is important that all of us. There is expertise and experience in this House, and I can see that there are noble Lords who know quite a lot about this sector with us today. We need to use that to ensure that nobody has to deal with what Awaab’s family faced ever again.

Before I sit down, I just want to say that our thoughts and prayers are with Awaab’s family through what must have been the most horrendous time—something that obviously they will never forget, and let us hope that we never forget it either.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, this is such a horrible tragedy. I join the Minister in sending sympathies to Awaab’s parents. To lose a two year-old child is just about as bad as it gets, and I feel very strongly about that. I know that the housing association itself is deeply troubled and upset by what has happened on its watch. The coroner said that this should be a “defining moment” for the housing sector. I spoke today to the chief executive of the housing association, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing, and there are some important lessons that the housing associations and we in Parliament and government can learn from this tragedy.

First, the Statement from the Secretary of State explains that the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill, which we greatly welcome in this House—we have completed its stages here—will enhance regulation of social landlords and the role of the Housing Ombudsman. This new legislation is important, since I suspect that in this case there was no knowledge at all of the Housing Ombudsman. There was an opportunity to make a complaint and be listened to a lot earlier, but I think that opportunity was simply not known about in Rochdale at the time. We now have legislation that will strengthen the ombudsman, but we need to promote that ombudsman service really quite energetically, and I believe that this process has started.

In my ignorance, I did not understand that mould can actually kill a small child—it is as bad as that. Mould is a horrible thing to have in your house, but the fact that it can lead to death really brings home just how awful this plague is in so many houses where ventilation and heating in combination are not achieving a balance, and where condensation is causing this horrible mould. The urgency of doing something about this has now been magnified by this event and it means that all housing associations have to give priority to this. When they hear that a place has mould on the walls, they must take that very seriously. When a visit is happening for any other reason, staff need to be told, “Look out for mould as well; report that back to base. That is a serious issue”. Now that housing associations are very large enterprises, communications within them need to be good enough so that people share all the information and understanding they bring back from a visit or telephone call. That sharing of information needs to identify where mould is a problem so that something can be done about it.

My next point is that fuel poverty is also behind this. People are not putting the heating on and not making the place warm enough. They cannot be blamed for that; the cost of fuel is a major part of the house- hold budget. This will get worse with the current energy crisis and we will have more of these cases, not fewer. I am afraid that a lot of properties owned by housing associations—including pre-1919 street properties and 1960s and 1970s concrete buildings—need serious attention. They need insulating in a modern way that will cut those energy bills and mean that the lack of heating does not create the condensation that leads to the mould that leads to tragedies like this. We are going to have to invest in these older properties. We are ready for decent homes round 2; I hope the Government are up for this. These things are not just a matter of regulation; they are, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, also about investment. We all agree on that. The social housing decarbonisation fund coming through will be really helpful. The levelling-up funding should target the insulation of older properties. We can see where the priority really lies in terms of the resources we are going to put into properties: cutting down on fuel bills.

There are some important lessons here. There are lessons for government as well as for the housing associations. Let us hope that some real value can come from this miserable tragedy of poor little Awaab, and that this is indeed a defining moment for the housing sector.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

It is indeed a defining moment. The Secretary of State has made it very clear that he thinks that this is a defining moment and that he is not going to let this go.

I was also surprised by how dangerous mould can be. I have concerns about the sharing of information in these cases, because a health visitor and a visiting midwife both noticed this mould. They put forward a report to the council, which did not seem to go as far as it should have. Sadly, communication is often an issue in these cases and we need to make sure that those problems are dealt with as well as the issues of the housing.

Obviously, this case was two years ago, but I am concerned about fuel—of course I am. However, I am mostly concerned about whether some of these tenants know what they can get from the Government to help them. I am not sure that they do. Through wearing my other hat as a Faith Minister, I am working very closely with the faith communities to make sure that when they talk to their communities and have their warm hubs and so on, they ensure that everybody knows exactly what the Government are offering to help them, because that sometimes is not the case. This case was not so much about heating but about ventilation, but that is another issue we need to look at across the sector, because mould often grows when ventilation is not correct.

Lastly, the noble Lord is absolutely right that not enough people know about the ombudsman. We had the Make Things Right campaign, which reached millions of social housing residents. This family obviously did not know about that, but I would then ask: where was the housing association to say that the family could go to the ombudsman when they first complained? There is more that we need to do, both the Government, in telling social housing residents about what they can get, and others who have contact with these families, by suggesting to them that the ombudsman is there to help them.

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, mould was causing death to children when Charles Dickens explored the inequities in the rookeries, so it is particularly shocking that this should occur in our own century. My noble friend talked about the rights of tenants and their inability to understand the role of the ombudsman, but this tenant family did the right thing: they got legal advice and their lawyer approached the council. For some reason, the council thought that was a reason to do nothing and not to attend to the mould. Will my noble friend make it clear that this is not a reasonable excuse not to act to provide safe and secure housing? This is particularly important because she talked about the culture. There is a disturbingly high level of churn among officials doing this kind of work in housing associations, looking at maintenance and the like. You can get it right for a while and then someone else comes along. Can my noble friend be unambiguous and say that this is clearly a misunderstanding of how the law operates and not a reasonable excuse?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend. When I read about this, I was also very surprised by the timeline: once Awaab’s father had instructed solicitors, the housing association then said it could do nothing further. I understand that many housing providers have a policy to routinely pause addressing complaints through their process when legal proceedings are commenced, and that this stays in place until agreements are reached between solicitors. I do not think that is right. We need to look at this. Repairs should not be stopped. When rehousing is necessary, I do not think that should be stopped. I understand that this is in the hands of the housing providers; if they want to keep going with maintenance, rehousing or whatever is required, they can. They have decided to have this policy, but personally I do not think it is acceptable.

[Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)]

My Lords, the Housing Ombudsman said earlier today that at the heart of little Awaab’s death lies the behaviour of the landlord, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing. As he said, for this landlord, and perhaps too many others in the social housing sector, there are issues with culture, behaviours and values. We know this. We have seen it time and again. So, while I commend the Government for all the actions they have taken since Grenfell, will they look again at including professionalisation in the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill? My noble friend the Minister has emphasised the importance of culture change, but without professionalisation it will be so much harder to change the culture, behaviours and values of those working on social housing.

My right honourable friend in the other place said that it is the right of everyone to feel safe in the place where they and their loved ones sleep at night. We know that many living in social housing would feel happier, safer and more valued knowing that the people responsible for their homes were qualified, just as those in other sectors with responsibilities to others are qualified. If this is to be a defining moment, let us not waste this opportunity. We have a real opportunity to do something about this now.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. I wondered whether I would get that question from her or the Front Bench opposite. Noble Lords know that we recognise in the social housing White Paper the need to improve professional standards in social housing, so that all residents receive the high-quality services they deserve and, as importantly, in my opinion, are treated with dignity and respect by social housing staff.

We have carried out a review on professional training and development and, as a result, have amended the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill to allow the Secretary of State to direct the regulator to set standards on the competence and conduct of all staff involved in the management of social housing. The new competence and conduct standard will ensure providers take appropriate steps to ensure all staff have the right knowledge, skills and experience, and demonstrate the behaviours required for the delivery of high-quality and professional services for tenants. As my noble friend knows, the Bill is going through the other place at the moment. I am sure there will be more discussions on this, so we wait to see.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

I declare my interests in the private rented sector, as in the register. We have heard from a number of colleagues about the importance of the culture in social housing provision being improved. Would my noble friend agree that social housing landlords must do better to train staff to see the welfare of tenants as their responsibility, rather than seeing them as a problem to be managed?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend. That is the culture change we need to embed in the sector and the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill is the catalyst for this. I know that professional qualifications are an issue, but the Government have made it very clear that they want the staff working in housing associations to have the right knowledge and skills, and particularly empathy with tenants. That applies in every sector. Training is necessary and will come. The regulator will certainly be looking at these issues as it moves forward to taking on responsibility for not just the financial issues within the sector but the consumer issues.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

The noble Baroness said that she would look through Hansard and write to us. Could she look at when we are likely to see the passage of the renters reform Bill? We have talked about the importance of private rented housing compared with social housing and the Bill is critical to making progress, so I would be grateful for a response on that.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I will. I am sorry; I forgot that. I will probably give an answer in the debate tomorrow.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2022

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 17 October be approved.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, these SIs are a key part of the implementation of the Elections Act 2022, which your Lordships debated at some length earlier this year.

The Assistance with Voting for Persons with Disabilities (Amendments) Regulations 2022 are made in consequence of, or to make similar provision to, Section 9 of the Elections Act 2022. The intention of both Section 9 of the Act and these consequential regulations is to improve the support available to disabled voters at polling stations, and they do this in two ways. First, they replace the existing requirement to provide a single, prescribed device to assist blind and partially sighted voters with a broader, better requirement that returning officers provide equipment to assist a wider range of disabled voters to cast their vote independently. They also revoke reference to that device for UK parliamentary elections where its description is included in secondary legislation. Secondly, they replace the unnecessarily restrictive requirement that anyone assisting a disabled voter be either a close family member of that voter or an elector themselves with a requirement that the person assisting be 18 years or over. This will allow people to more easily get support to cast their vote where the person best placed to support them did not meet either of the two previous criteria.

These changes are made for UK parliamentary elections by the Elections Act 2022, and this instrument makes equivalent changes across a range of other polls, including most mayoral elections; local authority governance referendums and neighbourhood planning referendums in England; police and crime commissioner elections in England and Wales; and MP recall petitions across the UK. The changes are being replicated at other polls, including English local elections, Greater London Authority elections and London mayoral elections, through separate secondary legislation following the negative procedure that will be laid before the House in due course. These instruments are essential in ensuring that the improvements to support for disabled voters in the polling station introduced by the Elections Act are applied consistently across all polls reserved to the UK Government.

The Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2022 has two purposes. First, it amends the spending rules for police and crime commissioner elections for England and Wales to replicate amendments made by the Elections Act 2022. These changes will bring much-needed clarity to candidates and their agents that they need to report benefits in kind—that is, property, goods, services or facilities which are provided for the use or benefit of the candidate at a discount or for free—which they have actually used, or which they or their election agents have directed, authorised or encouraged someone else to use on their behalf. In combination with expanded statutory guidance from the Electoral Commission, which is provided for by the order, this will support compliance with the rules and ensure those wishing to participate in public life can feel confident doing so, clear in their legal obligations.

Secondly, it inserts two additional welfare benefits into the list of qualifying benefits for proxy voting applications for police and crime commissioner elections. This will ensure that disabled people in receipt of new welfare benefits in Scotland who have recently moved from Scotland would be able to make a proxy vote application at a PCC election, without the need for it to be attested, while a decision is pending on the equivalent welfare benefit in the jurisdiction where they now reside. To give an example, if a disabled person who has been living in Scotland and is in receipt of an enhanced rate of new adult disability benefit has recently moved to a local authority in England and wishes to apply for an emergency proxy vote at a PCC election, the proxy vote application will not need to be attested by another authorised person, because the Scottish welfare benefit will be payable for 13 weeks from the time of their move. This means that the applicant for a proxy vote for a PCC election would be on the same footing as a person in receipt of the equivalent benefit in England for that period until they apply for the equivalent benefit in England and Wales.

It is vitally important that these rules also be updated in relation to police and crime commissioner elections to ensure consistency and fairness across the law, that candidates and election agents can discharge their responsibilities with confidence, and that disabled electors get the support they need at UK elections. I beg to move.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her authoritative introduction. In terms of the context of our consideration, can the Minister give a breakdown of the affiliations—political or none—of the PCCs in England and Wales? Again, for context, looking at paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, does the Minister have data concerning average PCC election expenses based on the last and previous rounds of elections? It would be interesting to be told the lowest and highest moneys expended in those two PCC elections. I do not ask the Minister from whence these moneys came—that really would be interesting.

For a better body politic, what is the Minister doing to try to ensure more interest in PCC elections? How might the citizen elector be persuaded to rate these elections to be of greater importance? What is being done to ensure greater participation? Is it not time to set up a major study of the concept of police and crime commissioners? What has been their success? How can their proceedings be improved? What of the quality of the candidates, and what of their backgrounds? Does the Home Office consult with the Welsh Assembly, the Senedd? Is there a sharing of information and opinion? Do Ministers from those two Parliaments meet? Is it an England and Wales order? It is. Were there consultations between England and Wales ahead of drafting? What kind of consultation was there? Was it ministerial, by officials, or simply by the net?

Lastly, perhaps I might persuade the Minister to consider a visit to north Wales. Our North Wales Police authority is very good. The chief constable and her board work very well alongside the federation and the PCC. I think that that visit would be helpful in providing ministerial insight into Wales and her workings. The police authority in north Wales is an excellent, exemplary organisation. Finally, I commend Mr Andrew Dunbobbin, the PCC. He is a serious and committed citizen, hoping to help things along.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for her thorough introduction of these two instruments.

I will look first at the police and crime commissioner elections order. I know that it is out of scope of the SI, but my noble friend Lord Jones made an important point when he talked about how we really need to look at increasing participation in these elections. They have terribly low turnouts and that is not good for democracy.

As we have heard, the order relates to benefits in kind, referred to as “notional expenditure”, that are given to PCCs. In July 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that there is no requirement that these benefits must be authorised by the candidate or the election agent. That is why concerns arose, which we discussed at some length during the passage of what became the Elections Act: people were concerned that they could be liable for expenses without even being aware that they had been incurred.

We support that this is clarifying what happens now in law around notional expenditure and that this is being replicated for PCCs’ elections. We believe it was right to tidy up the law in relation to notional expenditure in the Elections Act and we supported that during the passage of the Act. But I remind the Minister that I tabled an amendment to the Bill which stated:

“The Secretary of State must publish new guidance to candidates on notional expenditure within the period of 12 months”.


Can the Minister reassure the House that there will be guidance to candidates and their agents on this matter?

I turn to the second instrument, on assistance with voting for persons with disabilities. Again, this implements changes made by the Elections Act 2022, which we discussed earlier this year. One of the things that we looked at in some detail was removing the specific requirement for polling stations to offer tactile voting devices and replacing it with a fairly vague duty for workers at polling stations to support voters with often a wide range of disabilities. It is also worth noting that the RNIB did not think that tactile voting devices were enough and that more needed to be done. So there is much in this to commend.

One thing that came across very strongly in our debates on the Elections Bill was that blind and partially sighted people experience a unique set of challenges when voting. Obviously, voting is fundamentally a visual exercise. Some noble Lords expressed concern about the way this might be implemented and resourced. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, clearly explained those concerns just now.

I say to the Minister that along with others, we will be keeping an interest in this to make sure that returning officers continue to make voting accessible for everybody, regardless of their disability and at every polling station. It might therefore be helpful if the Government could indicate that they too will be monitoring the issue to ensure that the changes being made proceed as intended. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, a review in five years is a long way off when you have a fundamental change to how people with disabilities will be able to vote. At the end of the day, all we want here—I am sure the Government are in the same place—is for blind and partially sighted voters in particular to be able to exercise their democratic right confidently and independently.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank noble Lords on all sides of the House for their contributions. I will try to answer all the questions, but I may not give your Lordships a complete answer, so I will read Hansard tomorrow and make sure that, if any have not been answered, I will do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, went slightly off the SIs, but I understand why. It has been almost 10 years since the PCCs were introduced in 2012, and it is always right that the Government take a step back and review the model and their role on a continual basis. The Government were clear in their 2019 manifesto that they would strengthen the accountability of elected PCCs and expand their role, and a two-part internal review into the role of PCCs was established by the then Home Secretary. This has provided an opportunity to look more closely at how the Government can strengthen that accountability but also the resilience, the legitimacy and the scrutiny of democratically elected PCCs, because we want to ensure that the record of those PCCs is more visible to the voting public. This comes to the noble Lord’s questions about why the people of this country are not really interested in this, and why the election numbers are down. If we can make PCCs more visible, I hope we can increase the public vote and drive up standards.

One of the other things that needs to be done is clarification for the public of the relationship between a chief constable and a PCC, because they need to know that in order to know who to go to, and then they have the right checks and balances. So the Home Office is doing work on this. I think that is probably enough on that.

The noble Lord asked a number of quite detailed questions about the breakdown of spending; I will write to him with the answers.

With regard to visiting Wales, that is a very kind invitation but I will leave it to my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, who I believe is going to Wales tomorrow. She goes regularly, and I am sure that she would love to meet some PCCs in Wales.

I move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. As she knows, it can be difficult to access polling stations, particularly in rural areas, but this of course is the responsibility of electoral officers. I do think they are getting better at it, and this Act and the changes that are being made, and the fact that the Electoral Commission now has to take more notice of what is being said and give more guidance to electoral officers about this, mean that things will change even more for the better.

In addition, particularly for those people who have sight difficulties, the work that the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Holmes, have done through the Act to give different polling stations the flexibility to find the best way to enable blind and visually impaired people to vote in a proper way has been fantastic. They are not in their places, but I thank them for the work that they have done on that.

On training, I am sure that the commission will be helping local electoral officers with that. There is indeed a five-year review, which the Electoral Commission is required to undertake and to report the steps taken by returning officers. However, because this is not the way the commission works, I do not expect that it will wait for five years to do it. I am sure that it will keep a rolling view on it, because that is the way that it works, and it is important that that happens.

Assistance with Voting for Persons with Disabilities (Amendments) Regulations 2022

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 October be approved.

Relevant document: 16th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

Motion agreed.

Devolved Administrations: Intergovernmental Relations

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bryan of Partick]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what meetings have been held in 2022 with the devolved administrations as part of the intergovernmental relations arrangements.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, the Prime Minister spoke with the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales on his first day in office, underlining the Government’s commitment to working closely with the devolved Governments on the shared challenges facing people across the UK. From January to September this year, there have been over 200 ministerial meetings between the United Kingdom Government and the devolved Governments on a wide range of issues.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Unfortunately, there is a sense of quantity overriding quality in some of these meetings. I have searched high and low to find as many minutes and communiqués as I could, but I get the impression that many of these meetings are simply going through the motions. Academics have put this down to the Government having a unitary mindset, even after 20 years of devolution, and not actually accepting that there has been a fundamental change in the constitution. Does the Minister understand why people in Scotland and Wales feel that their Parliaments and political representatives are not given the level of respect that they should be afforded?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do not agree with that. The UK Government and the devolved Governments are working under jointly agreed operating arrangements; therefore, the quality and frequency of engagements are a joint endeavour between Governments. The UK Government deeply value transparency, accountability and effective scrutiny by the UK Parliament and the broader public of the Government’s participation in intergovernmental structures. We will continue to update the House on our published transparency reports. The last one came out on 21 July, and there is one due out shortly, in the third quarter of 2022.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords, given the reliance on science during the pandemic, which does not recognise national boundaries, and the frequency of travel between nations, what lessons have been learned from the divergence of pandemic policies between each area? Will the Government take account of the agreed actions of the four vets from each area in dealing with the avian flu in any evidence they give to the Hallett inquiry?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for that question. I think it goes slightly away from today’s Question, but I can tell him that, last year and the year before, the number of ministerial meetings between the UK Government and the devolved Governments increased considerably. That is important, because it reflects the work they all did on Covid-19 issues. I will certainly take his questions on avian flu and the learnings from Covid to the Department of Health and Social Care.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

Would the Minister agree that relations between the Government and the devolved Administrations fall far short of what was hoped for when devolution was established? Will the Government therefore set up a genuine consultation to ensure that what is devolved stays devolved, what is reserved is reserved and what is shared is shared with an atmosphere of mutual respect?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think it is. We have clear arrangements between the UK Government and devolved Governments about how they work together, the frequency of those engagements and what they talk about. This is not just at Prime Minister level but right the way through, through the Ministers and down to the officials. The work done between the four areas of the United Kingdom is good and works well.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Scottish Government plan to publish their budget for 2023-24 on 15 December. Is she aware of any discussions or considerations the UK Government have had with the devolved Administrations on the Chancellor postponing the Autumn Statement until 17 November and the corresponding ability of the devolved Administrations to plan for their budgets, less than a month later?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The Treasury considers a range of factors when setting fiscal events, including the impact on the devolved Administrations. The Scottish Government’s agreed fiscal framework sets out that funding will normally be finalised in the autumn prior to each financial year. Delivering the Autumn Statement on 17 November is therefore in line with these normal arrangements. The fiscal framework also recognises that normal arrangements sometimes need to be delayed, so sets out alternative arrangements in such a scenario. However, I do not think that delivering this on 17 November is such a case; for example, I think what it is thinking of are abnormal events such as when we had a general election close to Christmas.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

Will the Minister accept that the last three or four years have been a period when relationships between Westminster and Cardiff have been far from satisfactory? Given that we have a new Government, will she give an undertaking that there will be a positive initiative to try to overcome the difficulties that have existed, particularly by giving information to the Government in Cardiff in good time, so that they can react after considering the matter and not be rushed into taking decisions that cause problems later?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The Prime Minister set the tone for the Government’s collaborative approach to working with the devolved Governments right from his very first day in office. I can tell the House that the Prime Minister expects to meet the First Ministers again later this week. That is the tone that he has set and that we will continue.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Constitution Committee issued a very important report on the future of the United Kingdom? We would hope that intergovernmental relations will be taken very seriously, but there is a particular problem, in that the consent of the devolved Governments does not have to be sought for delegated legislation on matters that I am very aware would otherwise not be reserved. May we hope that this problem will be looked at very seriously, because it causes intense irritation among the devolved Administrations?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that comment. I will take it back to the department, discuss it and then come back to her.

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the challenges we face—the cost of living crisis, the climate crisis and standing up to Putin—are common across our four nations and we need to face them together. Can the Minister detail what recent engagements the Government have had in the past few months with the devolved Administrations on the climate crisis as part of preparations for COP 27?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. I cannot give the dates for what happened but it is possible, at any time, to go on to the government website and see what those meetings were about. However, I can tell the noble Lord that if those are the issues which the devolved Governments want to speak to the Prime Minister about, I am sure he will be listening at this coming meeting.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I do not think the Cross Bench has had a go yet. The first inter- governmental relations quarterly report came from the Cabinet Office. The latest one comes from the Department for Levelling Up. Can the Minister explain why that has moved and explain how the machinery of government works so that if a ministry is found not to be pulling its weight in this important aspect, it is encouraged to do so?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The area of inter- governmental relations was with the Department for Levelling Up prior to the last reshuffle. It then went to the Cabinet Office and it is now back with the Department for Levelling Up. That is the place—the communities area—where it should be.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister appreciates that the people of Liverpool can feel as alienated from the UK Government as those in Wales and Scotland. Does the Minister accept that Liverpool and other regions should be represented in these discussions, alongside the devolved Administrations?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do not agree with that. There is a completely separate area of discussion with the devolved Administrations and another, which I think is important, with the rest of local government and the regions of the whole of the United Kingdom. Those two separate things go alongside each other and work well.

Housing (Built Environment Committee Report)

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, for securing this important debate on the committee’s report. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and the members of the Built Environment Committee for their thorough inquiry into housing demand and the subsequent report. Let me also thank all noble Lords for their contributions today. It has been a very wide-ranging but extremely challenging and interesting debate. If I may, I shall go through the tenets of the report and the issues arising from it in this debate.

I start by saying that housebuilding is a priority for this Government. We are committed to continue working towards our ambition of delivering 300,000 new homes a year. However, our focus is not just on numbers. The types of homes provided, their quality, the infrastructure that new developments need and the communities that they are in all matter very much.

The committee’s report highlighted the need to give full consideration to our ageing population, especially those older people living alone, when developing housing policy. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for all the work he does in this area of housebuilding. My department is working closely with the Department of Health and Social Care and with housing, health and social care stakeholders to assess how we can support the growth of a thriving older people’s housing sector. The affordable homes programme, enabling the delivery of housing for older, disabled and other vulnerable people, is extremely important to this Government. Our older people’s housing task force will also look at ways to improve the choice of and access to housing options for these groups, particularly older people. I understand that this is being taken forward by the new Housing Minister and that a date will be announced for an older people’s housing task force in due course.

Turning to housing types and tenures, our commitment is that there should be enough social homes and fewer families housed in temporary accommodation in this country. That is important to us. We do not have targets because we just make sure that we have enough social homes, particularly family homes, so that families are not in temporary accommodation—this needs repeating. Since 2010, we have delivered over 598,900 new affordable homes, of which over 157,200 are for social rent. The Government are also committed to reducing the need for temporary accommodation by preventing homelessness before it occurs. To this end, we are investing £2 billion in tackling homelessness and rough sleeping over the next three years. These are all issues rightly brought up by the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Brixton and Lord Grocott, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton.

The report outlined the importance of home ownership. Since its publication, the Help to Buy equity loan scheme has ended, on 31 October 2022. From the scheme’s launch in 2013, it has supported over 361,000 households to buy a new home and boosted housing supply: 37% of all homes sold using the scheme would not otherwise have been built.

We have also expanded the first-time buyers’ relief by increasing the level at which first-time buyers start paying stamp duty from £300,000 to £425,000. First-time buyers will be able to access this relief on property purchases up to £625,000, compared with £500,000 previously. Our shared ownership and right-to-buy schemes also continue to help people into home ownership and out of the rented sector.

SMEs have a vital role in making the housing market more diverse, competitive and resilient, as we heard from my noble friend Lord Moylan. We have put in place a package of measures to support them. This includes our £1 billion ENABLE Build guarantee scheme to reduce the cost of debt for SMEs. Since publication of the committee’s report earlier this year, we have launched the £1.5 billion levelling up home building fund, which builds on the more than £2 billion of development finance that was invested under the home building fund and continues to support SMEs and new entrants into the sector. Through the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, changes to the planning system will support SMEs to build more homes by making the planning process easier to navigate, faster and more predictable.

Many noble Lords brought up issues concerning planning. I particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, who gave us the real nitty-gritty of what it is like in a local authority and the challenges we have all faced in the planning system—the challenges of what government, local authorities and, in particular, communities want. For me, the important thing that was brought up was the fact that you need to take communities with you. That is what local government is very good at, and we need to spend more time doing that because that is the way we get our local communities supporting the local plans early on; then we get the houses built that they and we need in this country.

The report made several recommendations on the planning system. A number of these recommendations have been addressed in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, which is currently making its way through the House of Commons and will be in this House pretty soon. I will briefly cover these in turn.

The Government continue to stay committed to the planning measures in the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill as they form a key part of the Government’s response to the challenge of levelling up the country. The Bill will modernise our planning system by putting local people at its heart, which will deliver more of what communities want. The reformed system will champion beautiful design, in keeping with local style and preferences, and ensure that development is sustainable and accompanied by the infrastructure that communities need.

Our reforms will ensure that local plans are under- pinned by better data, making them more transparent and easier to understand. This will enable local communities to more easily influence and comment on their emerging plans. The local plan preparation process will also be more standardised and shorter, supported by streamlined evidence-based requirements to reduce the burdens on local authorities—something for which they have been asking for a long time. The increased ability for local communities to get involved in planning processes will ensure that development is brought forward in a way that works best for local people.

The Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill gives the Government powers to create a new infrastructure levy. This is something else that my noble friend Lord Moylan and other noble Lords brought up. The levy will aim to capture land value uplift at a higher level than the current developer contribution regime, allowing local authorities to use the proceeds to provide the affordable housing and infrastructure that communities need. The levy will deliver at least as much, if not more, affordable housing than the current system of developer contributions. This will be secured through regulations and policy, supported by provisions in the Bill.

There were a number of questions on the levy, which I will try to answer. My noble friend Lord Moylan asked whether the levy will be for only that site. Under the levy, local authorities will be required to prepare a new document called an infrastructure delivery strategy, which will make it much clearer for communities what will be provided and when.

My noble friend Lord Moylan asked a further question on the levy. Local authorities will be able to borrow against infrastructure levy receipts and to build up cash reserves from the payment of the levy—again, something local government has been asking for. This will help local authorities to fund infrastructure that communities need.

Neighbourhood planning was brought up a number of times by several noble Lords. Neighbourhood planning is an important part of our planning system. It will now have greater weight in planning decisions, but we are also looking at allowing local communities to provide a simpler neighbourhood priorities statement which will not take as long. That can then be reflected in a neighbourhood plan as time allows.

We are proposing to make the levy a non-negotiable charge on a fixed proportion of the gross development value. That will reduce the negotiation issues to which, as we have heard from a number of noble Lords, Section 106 agreements are sometimes prone. Greater certainty and transparency around cost and the ability to factor expenditure into the price paid for the land should mean that affordable housing and infrastructure delivery is improved.

The Bill will require housing developers formally to notify the local authority via a development commencement order when they commence development. We are also modernising and streamlining existing powers for local authorities to serve completion notices—sometimes called “build-out”—which I know is very important to a number of noble Lords. These measures will increase transparency on build-out and make it easier for local authorities to take action where slow build-out occurs.

The committee’s report highlighted the importance of local planning authorities. It is vital that we have well-resourced, efficient and effective planning departments. To enable this, we are working alongside the sector to design a suite of targeted interventions to support the development of critical skills and build capacity across local planning authorities. As part of this work, the department is supporting local authorities in the development of new digital tools which will help make planning processes more efficient. We also intend to consult on an increase in planning fees that will help provide additional resources to support the delivery and improvement of planning services.

The committee’s report also suggested that we consider how best to update the calculation of local housing need. As with all policies, we are monitoring the impact of the standard method, particularly the impact of changes to the way we live and work, as that becomes clearer. We are developing policy on this topic and intend to set out further thinking on the direction of travel as soon as we are able to.

Many noble Lords brought up the skills issue. The committee’s report covered the importance of skills in meeting housing demand, and we are working to address skills shortages across the construction industry. The Government are increasing funding for apprenticeships to £2.7 billion in 2024-25. This will continue to support apprenticeships in non-levy employers, often SMEs, for which government will continue to meet 95% of apprenticeship training costs. I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham for giving us the example of Sunderland, where local colleges are taking this up and realise how important this sector is in increasing the skills base.

We are also part of a construction skills delivery group which has agreed new actions, including greater recruitment of apprentices, increased support for T-levels and improved routes into the industry. This work has had real-world impacts already. Apprenticeship starts in the construction sector in 2021-22 reached more than 32,000, exceeding pre-pandemic levels. As part of the building safety agenda, we are also working to develop a suite of national competence standards for individuals working on buildings.

I am conscious of the time. There was quite a lot of discussion on quality and design. As I said at the beginning, it is not just about numbers; it is about quality of housing. The quality of housing is fundamental to the well-being of communities and helps create thriving neighbourhoods. The levelling-up White Paper housing mission outlined the Government’s ambition to reduce the number of non-decent rented homes by 50% by 2030, with the biggest improvements in the worst-performing areas. This will be achieved through new minimum standards for privately rented homes and broader reforms to the social rented sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, brought up a couple of issues, particularly on energy usage in homes. The Government are investing £12 billion in the Help to Heat schemes, which will allow investment in the housing stock we already have to make houses more energy efficient—things such as boiler upgrades, sustainable warmth competitions and home upgrade grants. There are grants out there and I am happy to give the noble Lord further details on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, brought up what we are going to do to make future homes more sustainable. From 2025, the future homes standard will ensure that new homes produce at least 75% less CO₂ emissions than those built in 2013. These homes will be future-proofed with low-carbon heating and high levels of energy efficiency. That is an important part of where we are going on new homes.

My noble friend Lord Moylan mentioned modern methods of construction, which I am very interested in because that might be one way in which we can deliver more homes much faster. The report made additional recommendations about modern methods of construction. By embracing MMCs, housebuilders can deliver good-quality, energy-efficient new-build homes more quickly. The Government are working to address strategic barriers, notably the lack of component standardisation across the industry and the difficulties in obtaining product warranties, and therefore insurance and mortgages. The work we are doing will continue to provide assurance around the quality and safety of MMCs to bring them on to the market.

To conclude, I thank all noble Lords once again for their contributions today.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

It is getting late, but will the Minister kindly undertake to give the Government’s considered view on the whole question of possibly district councils, and certainly the national Government, having a key role in the decision-making over central infrastructure projects when it comes to planning permissions being given for the housing? I do not expect one now, but will the Minister kindly undertake to give a really considered view on that and write to me?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I was going to mention the noble Viscount and the issues of large infrastructure, such as airports, before I finished.

I thank my noble friend Lord Moylan for moving the debate and look forward to continuing the discussion and working collaboratively on the issues raised with noble Lords and the committee as it moves forward. The time is getting late. I know I have not answered everybody’s questions, but I will take a long look at Hansard, put out a letter to all members of the committee and put a copy in the Library.

Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

3rd reading
Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

That the Bill be now read a third time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, I will take a moment to do one last piece of housekeeping on the state of the Bill. My department has been working closely with the Welsh Government to ensure that they are kept abreast of the Bill’s progress and implications. Two legislative consent memorandums have been lodged with the Senedd Cymru indicating that consent should be given for this Bill. My officials will continue to engage with their colleagues in the Welsh Government and I hope that, by the time the Bill leaves the other place, legislative consent will have been given by the Senedd Cymru.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords on all Benches—noble friends behind me and noble Lords across the House—for their co-operation on this Bill. I view the Bill as essential to bringing much-needed and long-overdue change to the social housing sector—long overdue because it has been more than five years since the Grenfell Tower fire. I thank in particular all members of the Grenfell community, who have pushed so hard and contributed so much in shaping the Bill. I hope it will stand as part of the legacy of Grenfell and play its part in ensuring that such a tragedy never happens again.

It is my sincere hope and belief that the Bill will create a strong and proactive consumer regulation regime that will drive up standards in social housing and help tenants and the Regulator of Social Housing hold landlords to account.

However, it is important that the Government remain open to new ideas from Peers from across the House, and those within the industry. We listen to the points raised by Peers in this Chamber and during valuable meetings between debates. Consequently, we tabled two important amendments. The first gives the regulator powers to set standards for competence and conduct for staff working in social housing. This will ensure that staff have the knowledge, skills and experience to deliver a high-quality service for tenants. I am grateful for the contributions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman of Ullock and Lady Wilcox of Newport. The second amendment imposes a duty on the regulator to publish and take reasonable steps to implement a plan for regular inspections. The regulator had previously committed to this but I am glad that we have enshrined it in legislation. This will give tenants confidence that landlords will be required to deliver on the standards imposed on them and be held accountable if they do not. Again, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his determination to see this included in the Bill.

Turning now to the amendment on energy efficiency in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, I recommit to the House that we will consult on energy efficiency in the sector within six months of the Bill becoming an Act. We continue to support the sector in becoming more energy efficient but remain firm in our belief that this amendment is not the right way to achieve this. However, I must respect the will of this House on this issue and I thank the noble Baroness for bringing what is clearly an important issue to the fore. I thank all Members from the Front Benches opposite and my noble friends here for their wisdom and commitment. Lastly, I thank my noble friend Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist for her support beside me since Committee, which has been invaluable.

I am sure noble Lords will also join me in thanking the Bill team for their engagement, in particular Patrick, Ed, Dan and Elena. I also thank Marcus from my private office and Ruhena, Josh, Matthew, Shayne, Ellen, Richard, Mette, Richenda, Will, Nici and Jim—I hope I have not missed anybody—who have all provided invaluable support to a very rookie Minister with her first Bill. I also extend my thanks to all the policy officials as well as the legal team, ably led by Clare, and to the parliamentary counsel, who worked tirelessly to get this Bill to where it is.

It is important to remember that we are only half way there with the Bill. I wish it a swift journey through the other place, and hope that Members there will debate and consider it in a thoughtful, passionate, detailed and courteous manner, as we have done here. I reassure noble Lords that I remain open to further meetings with them to discuss this important legislation and look forward to picking this up again in what I hope will be a very brief discussion following its passage through the other place. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a really important Bill and I will briefly say some thank yous. I thank all noble Lords who took part to improve the Bill as it made its passage through this House. I thank, as the Minister did, Grenfell United, Shelter and the residents who suffered most from Grenfell and have worked so hard to bring this new legislation forward, alongside the Government. I thank my noble friend Lady Wilcox for her great support. I also support the Minister; this may have been her first Bill, but we have worked very constructively together and I thank her for her approach to the Bill, her approach to the House and for her time and that of her officials.

Housing: Manifesto Commitment

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they remain committed to building 300,000 new homes a year by the mid-2020s, as proposed in the 2019 Conservative Party Manifesto.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that housebuilding is a priority for this Government and a central part of our plans for growth. As my noble friend said, the 2019 Conservative manifesto stated that we will continue our progress towards our 300,000 homes a year by the mid-2020s. To unlock home ownership, we must build more homes in places where people want to live and work. We will continue to explore policies to help build the homes people need, deliver new jobs, support economic development and boost local economies.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. However, at Prime Minister’s Questions last week, the former Prime Minister said that

“we will abolish the top-down housing targets.”—[Official Report, Commons, 19/10/22; col. 679.]

As a former Minister for Housing and a former Minister for Planning, perhaps I can say to my noble friend that we will never get the new homes the country needs in the places where they are needed if we rely solely on the goodwill of local government. Does she agree that, while there needs to be dialogue with local government, the responsibility for ensuring that families live in decent and affordable accommodation is one for the new Administration?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do agree that it is one for the new Administration and I cannot comment on the past Administration any longer. I agree with my noble friend that we must build more homes in places where people want to live and work, as I said. The Neighbourhood Planning Act 2017 put beyond doubt the requirement for all areas to be covered by one or more plans that address the strategic priorities for each area. Authorities that fail to ensure that in-date plans are in place are failing their communities by not recognising that homes and other facilities that local people need are relying on ad hoc, speculative development that will not make the most of every area’s potential. Ministers have powers to intervene when local planning authorities fail to meet the timescales set out for preparing a local plan. However, these powers have not had to be used as yet.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness tell the House whether all these new builds will be fully insulated and fitted with heat pumps in order to meet our climate change targets without the need for any retrofitting? If not, why not?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, from 2025, the future homes standard will ensure that new homes produce at least 75% fewer CO₂ emissions than those built to the 2013 standard. These homes will be future-proofed with low-carbon heating and high energy efficiency. In December 2021, the Government introduced an uplift in energy efficiency standards which delivers a meaningful reduction in carbon emissions and acts as a stepping stone to the future homes standard. New homes will be expected to deliver around 30% fewer CO₂ emissions.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister will agree that housebuilding is in for a very rocky time in the months ahead, with interest rates rising, building and material costs going up, fewer people able to buy, and housebuilders sitting on their hands. Therefore, is this the moment to invest rather more in social housing, which can compensate those losses, and get some affordable homes built?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, we have announced £10 billion of investment in housing supplies since the start of this Parliament, with our housing supply interventions due ultimately to unlock over 1 million homes over the 2020-21 spending review period. This includes an additional £1.8 billion investment announced in the 2020-21 spending review. Of course we want to invest in affordable homes, so we are also investing £11.5 billion in 2021 to 2026 on the affordable homes programme, which we hope will deliver 180,000 more affordable homes.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, does the Minister agree that the Government should promote carbon-neutral homes with clean energy sources as part of any drive to increase housebuilding? What steps are the Government taking to ensure that environmentally sustainable homes are built as part of meeting housebuilding targets?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I think I have given a clear answer to that. The future homes standard will provide fewer CO₂ emissions, but this is not just about new houses; it is also about the houses that exist at the moment. We have our Help to Heat programme, which I spoke about in the last Question I took at the Dispatch Box, boiler upgrades, local authority delivery schemes, home upgrade grants for sustainable warmth and social housing decarbonisation—I could go on. We are looking at energy efficiency in not just new houses but the housing stock we have.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Deben (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the answer on insulated homes, but since the Government went back on the promise of zero-carbon homes, we have built 1.5 million homes that have to be retrofitted, at the cost to the owners, and the profit was made by the housebuilders. Is it not time that the Government brought their future homes standard forward and enacted it immediately, so we do not put the bill for extra costs on people who buy new homes?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I will take back to the department what my noble friend says, but we are investing £12 billion in upgrading. So it is not just home owners who are paying for this; the Government are supporting them.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

I say to the Minister that 300,000 homes is the equivalent of building a Newcastle every 12 months. My question is very simple: who is going to build them? The construction industry has been sounding the alarm on skills and labour shortages for some time, exacerbated by Brexit. What is the Government’s plan to address this pertinent issue now?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that skills are important; we cannot build these houses without skilled construction workers. We are collaborating across the whole of government to ensure that we are effectively supporting the sector. The Department for Education is approving training routes into construction, creating opportunities for workers to retrain by working with employers to make apprenticeships more flexible and promoting the use of T-levels, which are very important. DWP is also working with its work coaches to identify suitable candidates who might be able to change jobs and move in with local employers. A lot is going across government to make sure we have the skills in the construction sector.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords—

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[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords, is this not now a golden opportunity for the new Government to recognise the success of Milton Keynes as a new town/city, Northampton as a new town, and Welwyn Garden City? That concept can be modernised and is an opportunity —to pick up the point made by my noble friend—for social housing to be in the lead? Should not every one of the roofs in these new towns be appropriate for dealing with Covid, et cetera?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

New towns have been around for many years, and are a part of the solution if local people are happy to have that in their area. I will take my noble friend’s views back to the department; we will discuss it further and I will talk to my noble friend.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the manifesto promise was to build 300,000 new homes each year. How many were built in the last available year?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

Noble Lords will have to wait: I do not want to say words that are not correct, so I will make sure that I get the correct numbers. There were approximately 242,000 homes built in the last period before Covid. During the Covid period, obviously the number of homes went down, but looking at the projections for this year and forward, we are expecting to exceed the targets set.

Warm Hubs

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to support the establishment and maintenance of warm hubs in England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

Warm hubs, as with Covid support, are a fantastic example of the way in which faith and community groups can work together with local authorities to provide support and help for their communities. The Government strongly support these initiatives, but local government, which knows the needs of its communities, is best able to give support. We have made an increase of £3.7 billion to local government this financial year. We have also made available £1.4 billion through the household support fund.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Warmwelcome.uk is a coalition of many Christian charities that so far have signed up more than 1,600 halls, organisations and buildings to act as warm hubs providing lunches after school, homework clubs and so on. What consideration has been given to using these places of meeting to communicate and help people understand whether they can access other benefits, health advice, local charities and other support that is available during these very troubling times?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The right reverend Prelate is absolutely right. Warm hubs are there to do one specific thing, but we have the opportunity to make them not just warm, welcoming places to go but places where people who might be lonely will not be as lonely, with ongoing support for loneliness, which we know is a cause of mental health issues. He is right that hubs are an opportunity to ensure that local people get the support and knowledge they need and are entitled to, including information on such things as flu and Covid vaccines. We should be using them, and to that end I will talk—and have already talked—to the Local Government Association about best practice to move this forward.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for this important Question. The Minister will be aware that there are deep issues with the shortage of funding within all local authorities. They are having to scrape the barrel to fund services for children, adults with learning difficulties and a whole range of others. Can the Minister say with serious courtesy and conscience that the sixth-largest economy in the world can justify failing large sections of the community and rely on the use of these hubs? The most significant amount of work has been done by charities and interfaith organisations. Can we seriously say that we are satisfied with this?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have given large amounts of money to support people, households and businesses with their energy issues. I do not agree with the noble Baroness; I think communities are where these things are best delivered, and communities and local government know how to deliver them in the best way. I know that local authorities are always strapped for cash, but it is a matter of prioritisation for those local authorities and we have increased their grant by £3.7 billion this year. There is also the household support grant, a third of which is for supporting families and a third for pensioners. The other third is not ring-fenced and can very well be used for these sorts of projects.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I commend my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the London Borough of Sutton, who have already announced that they will use their libraries as warm hubs throughout the winter. Does the Minister agree with me that many commercial businesses inevitably have to use energy for their business? Will she ensure that some of the funding that goes to local government enables it to turn businesses, where possible, into warm hubs? I am thinking of places such as shopping centres, for example, which have to have a minimum amount of heating.

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[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right: we must never forget the private sector. We talk a lot about the public sector, the voluntary sector and the faith sector, but there is always the private sector. The private sector is getting energy bill relief from the Government, as are the voluntary and public sectors, so they are also getting support on their energy. I quite agree that, if we can encourage more private sector companies to look at this locally, it will help them as well as the people they support.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, given that my question earlier was about joining up, will the Minister answer the same question I asked her colleague from DCMS? What can the Government do to encourage and incentivise local authorities, statutory providers, faith organisations, the voluntary sector and the cultural sector, including libraries, to work together to maximise this kind of provision and make sure that it is advertised and made available to those people in the community who need it the most?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do not think we are starting from the beginning. I googled “warm hubs” today, and I suggest that noble Lords do the same. Across the whole country, these partnerships are happening now. I spoke to the chairman of the Local Government Association last night, and I encouraged it to ensure best practice—this is now happening with our partners in faith and other community groups and the private sector—and to put that information out so that all local authorities do it. Look at Leeds. Today it has put out a map of where all its warm hubs are in the city. That is a wonderful idea and should be taken up by others.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, it is quite clear that higher energy prices are going to have the effect of cutting the amount of energy that people use. Have the Government done any calculations on the demand for energy dropping as a result of higher prices?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am very sorry, but I do not know the answer to that. I will go to BEIS, which is responsible for this, ask it for an answer and make sure that the whole House gets that answer.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, in addition to supporting organisations in providing warm hubs, since 2011 the Labour-led Government in Wales have invested almost £400 million into more than 67,000 homes to improve energy efficiency. Will the Minister commit to improving energy efficiency in homes across the UK? I ask her to begin by accepting the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to the social housing Bill, to which noble Lords agreed earlier this week.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I think the time has come for that amendment, but the noble Baroness is right. Warm hubs are about this winter and the immediate. We have a longer-term plan: Help to Heat is the Government’s investment of £12 billion into schemes to ensure that homes are warmer and cheaper to heat. They include boiler upgrades, local authority delivery schemes for sustainable warmth competitions, home upgrade grants, the social housing decarbonisation fund and, of course, the energy company obligations. There are a number of schemes that the Government are investing in, as is the private sector, to make sure that, in the long term, our homes are better insulated and can keep warmer on less energy.

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, a lot of the solutions we have heard today are very much urban-based. I live in the middle of Cornwall, where we have 10 miles between villages. Picking up on libraries, which is a good idea, that is not quite as workable. Do the Government have any bright ideas on the rural sector?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I do not think the Government necessarily do, but local government certainly does. If you google them, you will see the number of village halls and parish councils in these small rural areas that are doing exactly what the more urban areas are doing. We have village halls all across the country, and they can use the energy scheme for businesses and the voluntary sector. Working with their local councils, they can also get small grants to support their local villages. Also, in most of our rural villages there is a church. Working together with faith communities and parish councils, you can deliver in rural areas.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I will make a constructive suggestion in relation to rural areas; I wonder whether the Minister can help on this. We need a national campaign to encourage people in small villages, such as the one I live in, to welcome people into their homes for coffee or tea and to enable people to walk to a local warm hub, which could just be a local person who reaches out. I believe that many people would be committed to doing that. My anxiety is that we will end up with loads of people feeling that they need to go to a warm hub and sit still, which is not a solution either.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am more than happy to talk further with the noble Baroness. Some of these things are happening, but it is a matter of making sure that we keep them all together and that good practice is transferred across the country.

Social Housing (Regulation) Bill [HL]

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 18th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing my cue and interrupting the wind-ups. I will speak briefly to Amendments 2 and 14. On Amendment 2, veterans from the Building Safety Bill will recall that much of the debate focused on the impact on social housing of the costs of remediating the defects. This amendment would give the regulator a role in ensuring that this remediation was concluded satisfactorily.

Some of the information asked for in the noble Baroness’s amendment is already available. Figures from the building safety programme published last week showed that all 180 high-rise social housing buildings, bar one, have had the dangerous materials removed. Remediation has started on the final building, but the cladding has yet to be removed. The Government initially expected remediation to be completed by June 2020, so, after a slow start, it seems that real progress has been made, which is welcome. But 37 privately owned blocks still have Grenfell-style cladding five years after the fire.

Turning to funding, can my noble friend confirm that the social sector ACM cladding remediation fund has enough resources to compensate the social housing sector for the costs incurred and that there will be no impact on its development programme or rents as a result of the remediation? It appears that 17 of its buildings will not receive any money from the fund; is there a reason for this? Is it because the remediation was funded by the developers? Are the Government planning to recoup any of the costs to the fund from those responsible? In that context, can my noble friend update the House on the ongoing discussions with the private sector to get it to accept its responsibility for this debacle, with its tragic consequences?

The noble Baroness’s amendment, however, goes further than the removal of unsafe cladding and refers to

“the remediation of other fire safety defects in social housing.”

Will my noble friend say what progress has been made on that front, and in particular how much that will cost and how it will be funded without impacting on rents or development? Presumably the work was undertaken at the same time as the cladding removal, so this information is available.

While the amendment has provided a useful peg for a debate, I am not sure we need it in the Bill. The removal of cladding and fire safety defects are clearly needed to make a building safe—covered in Clause 1 —and the regulator already produces an annual report and accounts, which could include the information in the amendment, but it would be helpful to have some information about funding and the impact on the social housing sector.

Finally, turning to Amendment 14, I, along with others, am a planetary Peer—although flying at a much lower orbit than that of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. As the noble Lord, Lord Foster, said, the amendment requires targets and the targets are important, but they require funding. Ideally, the funding to pay for these energy conservation measures should not be at the cost to the new build programme—which brings me to the social housing decarbonisation fund, mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which was set up to improve the energy performance of social homes in England, including local authority stock.

I know that that fund is the responsibility of BEIS and not of my noble friend’s department, but it is directly relevant to the debate on energy efficiency in social housing. There was a manifesto commitment in 2019 of £3.8 billion to this fund over a 10-year period. Will my noble friend confirm that that is still the case and that the sum has not been eroded in the meantime? What has been the take-up and evaluation of that programme and what assessment has been made of the number of homes that the sum could improve the energy conservation of? If my noble friend cannot answer now, perhaps she will reply in writing.

Finally, I understand that the amendment may be unacceptable to my noble friend, but I wonder whether she can show a little bit of ankle in her reply and indicate that this is not the Government’s final word on this and that as the Bill proceeds downstream in another place there might be the opportunity for further discussion and improvement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, before I turn to the amendments, I will say a few words about the Bill more generally to frame the debate for the rest of today. It is now over five years since 72 people tragically lost their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire. The situation in which the residents of Grenfell Tower were placed was unforgivable. The Bill we are debating is a key step in the department’s response to this tragedy, ensuring that social housing tenants are safe, have decent homes and receive a good service from their landlord.

I must also pay tribute to the work of Grenfell United, which has championed the Bill from the very beginning. The Bill appears before noble Lords today because of the commitment of Grenfell United to these critical issues, which affect millions of tenants up and down the country. It is right that we recognise specifically the leading role that Grenfell United has played.

I will begin with Amendments 1 and 14, and Amendments 33 and 36 in my name, which all relate to energy efficiency. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have heard from many noble Lords about the importance of energy efficiency in social housing, and I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock and Lady Hayman, for their amendments. I turn first to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, which advocates including energy efficiency in the Regulator of Social Housing’s fundamental objectives. Having listened to the powerful speeches made in Committee, I have added my name to her amendment and offer two further amendments—Amendments 33 and 36—which we think are necessary as consequential amendments to this.

As an aspect of housing quality, energy efficiency is already implicitly covered by the regulator’s fundamental objectives. The regulator’s home standard requires registered providers to comply with the Government’s decent home standards, which include requirements on energy efficiency. However, having considered further, we believe that these amendments would send a very strong signal to social housing providers and reinforce the broader importance of improving the energy efficiency of homes, to the benefit of communities, this country and the planet.

With the regulator having a specific objective to ensure that social housing maintains an appropriate level of energy efficiency, it will be important that government provides clarity on what standards of energy efficiency are expected of registered providers. That is why I am pleased to announce today that, following on from our 2021 Heat and Buildings Strategy—I say to my noble friend Lord Bourne that we do have a strategy—the Government will consult on energy efficiency in social housing within six months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent. I hope that answers a couple of questions from my noble friend Lord Bourne and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, that as long as I am a Minister in the department, I will make sure that this time we deliver within the timescale we set out today—because my name is on this.

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[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am not aware that there is a target. I will look to see whether there is one and come back to the noble Lord. As we have heard in this debate, the social housing sector is in fact better than any other sector at getting to EPC level C.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and my noble friend Lord Young asked whether we have an energy-efficiency programme and what we are doing about it. We do have an energy-efficiency programme—my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham mentioned it: the social housing decarbonisation fund. In the 2019 manifesto the Government committed £3.8 billion to this over a 10-year period. This will upgrade a significant proportion of the stock that at the moment is below EPC level C up to that standard. The latest funding round was launched in September this year, so it is continuing and ongoing. There is £3.8 billion to do just that.

I now turn to Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, regarding cladding remediation. Nothing is more important than keeping people safe in their homes. The department continues to work closely with registered providers to facilitate the remediation of unsafe cladding and other fire safety defects. However, we are not persuaded that the type of monitoring suggested by the noble Baroness’s amendment is necessarily appropriate for the Regulator of Social Housing. The regulator is not a specialist building safety body, nor does it collect data on hazards, safety breaches or associated remedial works. As I believe I said in Committee, the department is examining options relating to the monitoring of fire defects, including unsafe cladding. I know we are always saying this, but we will set out our plans in due course and I will keep the noble Baroness updated on those plans. As I said, I will personally keep an eye on them now that I am in the department.

The noble Baroness also asked what progress had been made on the monitoring of cladding for social homes and about shared equity. The Secretary of State made it clear that no leaseholder living in a building of above 11 metres will ever face any costs for fixing dangerous cladding, and that applies to shared ownership too. The Government will provide grant funding for the removal and replacement of unsafe cladding in buildings that are over 11 metres. We have also introduced a new model for shared ownership which will include a period during which the landlord will provide support for the cost of repairs in new-build homes as well. I hope that answers the noble Baroness’s question—I know that I am also answering a further question that she asked earlier in the week on a similar issue.

My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham asked for some details. I think I will need to write to him because he wanted quite a lot of detail. We recognise that some social landlords face significant building safety costs and that they are having to balance their existing budgets to support this. The Government committed over £400 million to fully fund the removal and replacement of unsafe ACM cladding systems on buildings over 18 metres that are owned by registered providers of social housing. The Government have also committed to meeting the costs of removing other types of unsafe cladding on social sector buildings over 18 metres where the financial viability of a registered provider would otherwise be threatened. We are working on it. My noble friend asked me a lot of other questions and I will make sure that we answer those in writing.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, has tabled two amendments relating to tenant engagement. I thank her for these because that is what the Bill is all about—tenants. I begin with Amendment 3, which seeks to require a social housing tenant to chair and set the agenda for the advisory panel. As I said in Committee, tenants are at the heart of the Bill. It is vital that we empower tenants and ensure that their voices are heard. I reiterate that the advisory panel is intended to allow a diverse range of individuals to share their knowledge and opinions with the regulator. The views of tenants are absolutely central to this objective.

However, I do not believe that requiring a social housing tenant to chair the advisory panel and set the agenda is necessary to ensure the views of tenants are heard. In line with the White Paper commitments, the panel will listen to, and balance the interests of, the full range of stakeholders, including tenants. We want all members of the advisory panel, along with the regulator, to shape its agenda and how it operates, and decide who is the best person to chair it at any one time; that might mean different chairs for different debates. The panel will provide an essential platform to give tenants a voice, which will be listened to and considered, alongside the opinions of other stakeholders. Tenants will continue to be central to the regulator’s work; it is already enabling tenants to influence the design and implementation of the new regulatory regime through a number of tenant engagement events.

I now move to Amendment 31 from the noble Baroness, which proposes that the Secretary of State introduces tenant satisfaction measures—TSMs—within 30 days of the Bill passing. The regulator has already consulted on and issued a standard for TSMs, which comes into force on 1 April 2023, alongside technical guidance to promote compliance. Tenants will be able to scrutinise the first full set of survey results in 2024 to evaluate the performance of their landlord.

The regulator developed the TSMs regime through a detailed consultation process, gathering over 1,000 responses from stakeholders, including tenants, landlords and trade bodies. Given this detailed process, and the progress that the regulator has already made in implementing TSMs, there is no need for an amendment requiring the Secretary of State to introduce them. In the light of the commitments and points I have made, I hope that noble Lords are reassured and will not press their amendments.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I thank everyone around the House for a good debate on the issues, particularly those of energy efficiency and the affordability of energy for heating homes. I add my thanks to the Minister for being so open about having a discussion and trying to resolve some of the issues that we have raised. She has been very generous with her time, especially when she has had this Bill put in her lap at the last minute, so to speak. I thank her for the support for Amendment 1 in my name.

On Amendment 2, it is still unclear to me why, if one of the fundamental objectives of the regulator is safety, monitoring the remediation of cladding cannot be included—but there we are. I am pursuing this issue elsewhere, as the Minister well knows, and I shall do so.

The key issue is how very disappointing it is that the Government are apparently unable to support Amendment 14 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. We need a strategy that will work, and clearly we do not have one, otherwise one-third of houses in the social housing sector would not still be well below the EPC level C rating. I am fed up with all this bidding for money at the centre; it is very ineffective. We need a proper strategy to get this done, as Kirklees Council did when I was leader, with the Kirklees warm homes scheme.

With those final comments, I beg to move the amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

4: Clause 7, page 5, line 36, after “194” insert “, 194ZA”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 19 inserting a new section 194ZA into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, there was an extremely important debate in Committee on the professionalisation of the social housing sector. As a Government Whip at that stage, I committed to speak to the new Minister once in post to let them know the strong views of the House on this issue. The noble Baroness will be reassured to hear that the conversation went well, even if it was a little one-sided.

Let me be clear: the Government support the professionalisation of the sector. We strongly agree that there is a need to improve the behaviours, skills and capabilities of staff in the sector. The Grenfell tragedy and our subsequent social housing Green Paper consultation highlighted that many staff did not listen to or treat residents with respect, provide a high-quality service, or deal appropriately with complaints. That is why we have brought forward Amendments 18 to 39, which address these issues. The amendments give the Secretary of State a power to direct the regulator to set regulatory standards on the competence and conduct of all staff delivering services in connection with the management of social housing. A competence and conduct standard will require landlords to ensure that their staff have the skills, knowledge, experience and behaviours they need to deliver professional services. Qualifications such as those offered by the Chartered Institute of Housing will be one part of how landlords could achieve this, as part of a holistic approach to staff training and development.

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We know that the Government are reviewing professional training and development, but what are they doing to review workforce problems in the housing sector more widely and the impact of these shortages on the safety of social housing tenants? We welcome what the Government have said so far. However, it is not enough and if the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, decides to test the opinion of the House on this issue, we feel so strongly about it that we will support her.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, the speeches from across the House today are a tribute to the role that real scrutiny of legislation can play. I personally thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman of Ullock and Lady Pinnock, my noble friend Lady Sanderson and the noble Lord, Lord Best, among others, with whom I have had extremely constructive conversations on this critical issue over recent days. I also met Grenfell United and told them what I have to do and why I have to do it.

I will start by answering a couple of questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, said that her amendment is permissive not prescriptive. Unfortunately, the existence of a power in legislation for the Government to in effect control hiring and firing decisions would still be deemed a government control by the ONS, even if it is permissive and flexible.

A number of noble Lords asked why we cannot ask the ONS about its decision before we make any further decisions—it is a question that I asked too. The ONS is the independent body statutorily responsible for making classification decisions, which includes determining whether bodies are part of the public sector. The ONS will make a formal assessment only once a new policy or regulation has been implemented; it does not classify the impact of policies still under development, so we cannot go to it until the decision is made.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

I hear what the noble Baroness says, but have the Government actually asked the ONS whether it would be prepared to give an indication of whether the level of reclassification is reached? As others have said, that would really help.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

It will not engage, as far as I understand. His Majesty’s Treasury would deal with this and it has advised that we cannot do that, as that is not what the ONS does. The ONS publishes its assessments and its decision cannot be challenged. It will review its decision only in very limited stated circumstances, including when new legislation, policy proposals or machinery of government changes impact the operations of an organisation or, in this case, a sector.

I go back to the point that, in 2015, following further legislation on the social housing sector that had tipped it over, the ONS changed the classification and we had to introduce new legislation again. We do not want to be in that position—that would not be what anybody would want—and the time involved in doing all that would be extensive.

My noble friend Lord Young asked whether the review of professionalisation would feed through to the development of standard. Yes, it will: the review will inform the Secretary of State’s direction to the regulator about the context and objectives for the standard, so it will be used in that way.

My noble friend Lady Sanderson asked whether the Secretary of State could direct the regulator to include qualifications in the standard. Again, directing the regulator to require qualifications would also risk reclassification. However, in setting standards for the competence of their staff, landlords would have to provide assurance that their staff had the requisite capabilities, and I suggest that ensuring that their staff have appropriate qualifications would be a key way of achieving that aim.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, having looked at the classification process on the ONS website, I see that it states:

“HM Treasury may … submit policy proposals for classification advice from the Economic Statistics Classification Committee … either on its own behalf if it is the policy lead, or on behalf of another department”.


It looks to me like the issue could have been put to the ONS for advice ahead of the position that we find ourselves in.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

We have asked for an indication, but the ONS will give only an indication. As far as I understand it, the indication is that this could tip over into a reclassification.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

Could we perhaps have the official response to the Treasury, if it has put forward a request?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am more than happy to provide that.

I think that I have answered all the questions. As I have said once already and as I said in Committee—although it perhaps bears repeating—the Government believe in professionalising the social housing sector. As was mentioned, we sent out an all-Peers briefing on Friday setting out the full rationale for what we are doing, why we are doing it and why we are unable to accept the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock. The qualifications, training and development needed to professionalise social housing cannot be a one-size-fits-all; we must protect landlords’ ability to determine the most appropriate qualifications and training for their staff. The regulator has deep sector expertise and a strong track record of regulating the sector for financial liability, on which it would be able to draw, to ensure that landlords raise professional standards. The introduction of tough sanctions for landlords failing to comply with the new standard will ensure that consistently high standards are achieved across the sector.

To push back against what the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said, I say that this is not light touch, given the enforcement powers and unlimited fines and the fact that the regulator will be looking at tenant satisfaction levels in great detail. If tenants are unsatisfied with their housing provider, they will say so, and at that point the regulator can move in—and the regulator has teeth to ensure the enforcement of specially trained staff, and has unlimited fines if the provider does not comply. There are tough sanctions for failing to comply with the new standards, and I believe that the provisions will ensure that consistently high standards are achieved across the sector.

Finally, the risk of reclassification of the social housing sector is substantial. The proposal to mandate qualifications for staff risks adding £90 billion to the public balance sheet. Reclassification could limit landlords’ ability to invest in new homes and in improving the quality of existing stock and service provision. This would clearly disadvantage tenants and undermine our objective of increasing professionalism in the sector. It is likely that we would want to introduce deregulatory measures to address that. It would weaken the regulatory framework that the Bill creates, and we cannot allow that to happen.

The Government are not trying to hide on this issue. It simply comes down to how we accomplish the outcomes for which we are all looking. I believe that the Government’s approach is the right one. I hope that noble Lords have been persuaded by my arguments.

Amendment 4 agreed.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

5: Clause 15, page 13, line 18, leave out subsection (3)
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause after clause 15.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, this set of government amendments delivers technical changes which will ensure that measures in the Bill operate effectively and consistently.

Amendments 19, 20 and 21 to Clause 24 will ensure that both registered providers and the occupiers of premises will receive the same 48-hour notice period before the Regulator of Social Housing conducts a survey. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, raised the discrepancy in notice periods in Committee. We agree that there should have been no difference between the notice periods that the tenant and landlord receive. I hope that she will welcome these amendments which address this problem.

I turn to the other amendments in this group. Amendments 26 to 30 are a series of changes to Clause 26. These will enable a regulator to carry out emergency remedial action more effectively. Given the urgent nature of these remedial works, these changes are highly important. Ahead of carrying out emergency remedial action, a person authorised by the regulator is required to notify all parties.

Amendment 28 allows all parties to consent to early entry before the minimum advance notice period has elapsed. This ensures that, where all parties are content, there will be no barrier to preventing urgent works starting immediately. Amendment 28 also allows the occupier to consent to a person authorised by the regulator conducting emergency remedial works in advance of the date specified on their pre-entry notice. Amendment 27 is consequential on this change.

Amendment 29 offers greater flexibility to the regulator by making it clear that the person authorised by the regulator to notify parties that emergency remedial works are due does not have to be the same person who carries out the works. Amendment 26 clarifies that, when emergency remedial works affecting common parts are due to take place, a notice is required to be given only in respect of occupied dwellings that have use of the common parts. Amendment 30 is a minor amendment to improve the drafting.

Amendment 6 would remove the requirements for the regulator to decide on the eligibility of registration of a registered provider that has recently converted from a company to a registered society. In such an event, the registered provider’s existing registration remains in place. Amendment 5 is consequential on this change.

Amendment 7 proposes a new clause in relation to the restructuring of a registered provider that is a registered society. It removes a duty on the regulator to make a registration decision where a registered society converts into a company or transfers undertakings to another society that is also a registered provider. Registration decisions are not needed in these circumstances. In the case of a conversion, the provider’s existing registration continues. In the case of a transfer, the transferee is already registered. Where a registered society amalgamates with another or transfers its undertakings to a society that is not also a registered provider, proposed new Section 163ZA provides that the successor body should be treated as registered and designated as a non-profit organisation pending the registration decision. Amendments 8 and 9 are consequential on this change.

These amendments are largely technical in nature. Many of them will support the regulator to deliver effectively on its economic and consumer regulation objectives, while others will ensure greater clarity and consistency in the legislation. I hope that noble Lords will support their addition to the Bill. I beg to move.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

6: Clause 15, page 13, line 24, leave out subsection (4)
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 16.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

7: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Conversion of company into registered society: continuation of registrationIn section 161 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (company: conversion into registered society) omit subsections (4) to (7).”Member's explanatory statement
If a registered provider which is a company becomes a registered society the body’s registration as registered provider continues. This amendment removes the provisions requiring the regulator to decide whether the registered society is eligible for registration as a registered provider.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

9: Clause 16, page 14, line 1, leave out “section 163” and insert “section 163ZA (inserted by section (Restructuring of registered societies))”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 16.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

10: Before Clause 19, insert the following new Clause—
“Standards relating to competence and conductAfter section 194 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 insert—“194ZA Standards relating to competence and conduct(1) The regulator may set standards for registered providers in matters relating to the competence and conduct of individuals involved in the provision of services in connection with the management of social housing.(2) Standards under subsection (1) may, in particular, require registered providers to comply with specified rules about—(a) the knowledge, skills and experience to be required of individuals involved in the provision of services in connection with the management of social housing, and(b) the conduct to be expected of such individuals in their dealings with tenants.””Member's explanatory statement
This gives the regulator power to set a standard requiring registered providers to ensure that individuals who provide services in connection with the management of social housing have the knowledge, skills and experience to do so and to set out expectations as to how the individuals conduct themselves in relation to tenants. See also the amendment to Schedule 5, page 49, line 32 in the Minister’s name.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

11: Clause 19, page 16, line 18, leave out “section 194” and insert “section 194ZA (inserted by section (Standards relating to competence and conduct))”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 19 inserting a new section 194ZA into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

15: Clause 21, page 17, line 21, at end insert—
“(za) to set a standard under section 194ZA,”Member's explanatory statement
This enables the Secretary of State to direct the regulator to exercise the new power to set standards conferred by the new section 194ZA of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (see the amendment to insert a new clause before clause 19 in the Minister’s name).

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

16: Clause 21, page 17, line 24, after “paragraph” insert “(za) or”
Member's explanatory statement
This is linked to the amendment to clause 21, page 17, line 21 in the Minister’s name and enables the Secretary of State to direct the regulator about the content of the standards set under the new section 194ZA and to direct the regulator to have regard to specified objectives when setting them.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief because much has been said that needs to be said, and we had quite a debate on this in Committee. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for the amendments he put down in Committee and again on Report, and for all the hard work and time he has put into moving this issue forward so that we have reached a stage where the Government have recognised that more needed to be done in this area. I thank the Minister for her amendments and for recognising that inspection is a critical part of making progress on standards in social housing.

We are now reaching the end of the debate at Report, so I would just like to say a couple of things. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, asked a number of questions; I will not add to them but will wait to hear the Minister’s response. I thank again the Minister and her officials, as I did at the beginning of today’s debate, for her personal commitment and time on this Bill, and for her efforts where she has been able to make progress—for example, on this issue and in some other areas. It is appreciated by all of us who want this Bill to be as good as it can possibly be.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, ended in the way that we ought to end this debate, which is to recognise why we are here today. It is because of those who suffered so much during the Grenfell tragedy not giving up and keeping going and pushing us politicians and others on what needed to change in the social housing sector. This Bill is a credit to them. On that note, I thank everybody for the debate and for their time today.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his Amendment 17 relating to inspections and for the time he has given me and my officials on this issue; it was important. He knows so much about this sector, and it was really very useful to spend time with him, as it was useful to spend time with many other noble Lords on a number of issues here. I thank them so much for their time.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

18: Clause 23, page 18, line 2, after “194” insert “, 194ZA”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 19 inserting a new section 194ZA into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

19: Clause 24, page 19, line 9, leave out from “if” to end of line 14 and insert “an authorised person has given at least 48 hours’ notice of the first exercise of the power—
(a) to the registered provider, and(b) if the premises are occupied, to the occupier (or any one of the occupiers).”Member's explanatory statement
This provides for occupiers of premises to be given 48 hours’ notice of the first exercise of the power to enter to carry out a survey (as opposed to 24 hours). This places occupiers in the same position as registered providers of the premises concerned.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

22: After Clause 24, insert the following new Clause—
“Inspection plan(1) The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 is amended as follows.(2) After section 201 (inspections) insert—“201A Inspection plan(1) The regulator must make a plan as regards—(a) the descriptions of registered provider that should be subject to regular inspection under section 201,(b) the intervals at which regular inspections should be carried out under that section, and(c) the circumstances in which registered providers should be subject to inspections under that section other than regular inspections.(2) The plan may make different provision for different cases, circumstances or areas.(3) The regulator must take appropriate steps to implement the plan.(4) The regulator must—(a) keep the plan under review,(b) when appropriate, revise or replace the plan, and(c) publish the plan and any revised or replacement plan.”(3) In section 215 (use of intervention powers), after subsection (1) insert—“(1A) In determining whether the regulator has complied with subsection (1) in relation to its power to arrange for inspections under section 201(1), a plan published under section 201A may be taken into account.””Member's explanatory statement
This imposes a duty on the regulator to produce, publish and take appropriate steps to implement a plan relating to the carrying out of both regular and one-off inspections of registered providers of social housing. It requires the regulator to keep the plan under review and to update it as appropriate.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

24: Clause 25, page 21, line 32, after “194” insert “, 194ZA”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 19 inserting a new section 194ZA into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

25: Clause 25, page 21, line 35, after “194” insert “, 194ZA”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the Minister’s name to insert a new clause before clause 19 inserting a new section 194ZA into the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

26: Clause 26, page 25, line 29, leave out from “building” to end of line 31 and insert “and there are occupied dwellings in the building that have use of those common parts, the occupier (or any one of the occupiers) of each of those dwellings,”
Member's explanatory statement
This is to make it clear that notice of entry to carry out works on common parts needs to be given under this provision in respect of dwellings which have use of the common parts only if the dwelling is occupied.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

32: Schedule 5, page 49, line 19, at end insert—
“(za) in paragraph (a), for “to 198B” substitute “to 198”;”Member's explanatory statement
The amends section 192 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 to reflect the repeal of section 198B by clause 22 of the Bill.

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Moved by

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook]

33: Schedule 5, page 49, line 25, after “safety” insert “, energy efficiency”
Member's explanatory statement
This is to make it clear that the regulator’s power to set standards extends to setting standards for registered providers as to the energy efficiency of accommodation, facilities and services provided in connection with social housing.

Housing: Leasehold Properties

Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts

Monday 17th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as a leaseholder.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)]

My Lords, home ownership provides people with greater control over their own homes and lives. We are committed to creating a housing system that works for everyone. This includes our programme of reform to improve leasehold. Following the introduction of the ground rent Act in June, we are due to bring forward further leasehold reforms later in this Parliament, helping millions of households genuinely to own their own home.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I have raised leasehold issues many times in the Chamber in recent years, and the response I receive is never unsympathetic to the problems of this tenure. The frustration is that, despite this, not a lot is happening. I ask the noble Baroness, who I warmly welcome to her new job as a Minister, what we are going to do to move things forward. I will come back month after month and take every opportunity I can until we finally get some real action on this and the change that the Minister has promised finally happens.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The noble Lord is right: I answered a Question from him not many weeks ago. I have spoken to myself a great deal since that time, as I promised. Noble Lords have to understand that these are very complex and technical issues. The reform will be felt for generations to come, so we need to take time and care. We have made very clear—it is in our manifesto—that we will bring further leasehold reforms in this Parliament. To move things on, I hope the noble Lord opposite will agree that we should meet and talk about what are the important parts of leasehold. I am happy to open that meeting to others in the House, because I know how important it is for noble Lords.

[Lord Best (CB)]

Can the Minister confirm that the recommendations from the Government’s own working group on regulation of managing agents will see the light of day in these new reforms? Managing agents look after nearly all the 5 million or so leasehold properties, and their quality and performance vary from the excellent to the dreadful. Will we see these regulatory measures, as recommended by that working group, in the new legislation?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the work that he did on that group. The Government are making sure that tenants and homeowners are protected from abuse and poor service; it is happening—we know that. This includes raising professionalisation and standards among property agents, protecting consumers and defending the reputation of good agents. There are many good agents out there and they have to be protected from the actions of rogue operatives. The Government welcome what the industry itself is doing; it has set up a code of practice for property agents. We will work continually, keeping our eye on the working group on the regulation of property agents, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Best, but also working with the industry to ensure that it continually improves best practice.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I wish that the Minister, who I welcome to her position, would recognise the urgency of leasehold reform. I have had a letter from leaseholders in a single block who have themselves had letters from their freeholders listing their liabilities as a consequence of the building safety scandal. The liabilities are an astronomical, unbelievable £3.4 million—for a single block. The developer responsible may pay some of those costs but certainly not all of them. The leasehold model is broken and urgent action is needed to reform it—abolishing it would be a preferable way forward. I recognise that the Minister wants to make a difference but please can she help these leaseholders?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I obviously cannot comment on a particular instance. I would like to have more information; if the noble Baroness would like to write to me, we will meet and I will look into it. That is not what should be happening. Leaseholders should not be paying; it should be others who are paying. We made that very clear in the Building Safety Act.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, the Government promised to make this whole system fairer, faster, easier and cheaper, yet somehow it has absolutely stalled. It is fair enough to have meetings; that is wonderful and very fair of the Minister. At the same time, “before the next election” may be a rather difficult timetable to be sure of. Can the Minister please get some sort of date—some idea—of when this will happen? There is urgency; I ask as a leaseholder.

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right, and I can assure her that I am talking about it almost daily in the department. I will continue to do so and hope that, the next time I come to the Dispatch Box on this issue, I will have a date.

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

Some of the companies issue contracts in which the small print declares that their leaseholders will be liable for any costs that the companies might incur if they are called before a tribunal. Does this have any legal sanction and, if it does, can steps be taken to prevent this happening?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am not sure what the noble Lord is talking about. If he is talking in particular about leaseholders with a freeholder who does not have a managing agent, that can often be quite difficult. The Government are looking at that; we are looking at suitable legislation slots so as to have something in place if they do not employ a managing agent. If I am wrong on that, perhaps the noble Lord could write to me and I will answer.

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

It is a clear issue and I will give the Minister instances of its occurrence.

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[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I am afraid I have no line into the Scottish Parliament but it does not seem a very good reflection on the way that party works.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Does the Minister agree that many tenants in England would absolutely welcome a freeze on rents, as tenants are enjoying in Scotland?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, we are continually looking at how we can support the rented sector through this particularly difficult time. On Section 21, as the noble Baroness probably knows, the Prime Minister has said that she will not change her decisions on that either.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, does not the point of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, underline the importance of doing all we can to induce voters in Scotland to vote for parties other than the Scottish nationalists, preferably the Conservative and Unionist Party?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

I agree with my noble friend.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

We have a remote contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, with dramatically escalating service charges nationally aggravating the position, is not the answer greater transparency over leasehold, freehold and sub-lease title issues more generally? Transparency alone can often solve problems where landlord anonymity hides accountability. If that is combined with the rolling-up of lease liability payments pending payment on the death of a lessee under the debenture arrangements I proposed on 20 June, it would ease the problem. Will the Government please look at what I am proposing?

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

The law is very clear that service charges must be reasonable, as in Section 19 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985. Leaseholders can apply for a First-tier Tribunal for a determination on this. The Government are also committed to ensuring that service charges are, as the noble Lord says, transparent and that there should be a clear route to challenge or redress if things go wrong. We will continue to work on that for the people affected.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, that concludes Oral Questions for today.